Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Blackhawk748]

Well, there's an upshot there - it means that precedent has been set for less sexualised female miniatures, making them easier for us to convert, since they won't stand out any more. Just get some female heads from third party producers, and stick them on Cadians etc etc. Nice.

You mean how Guard players have been making female Guard forever?

[LansXero]

I’m not sure that’s quite accurate? they haven’t released it on the web store at all yet,

Stores have been able to order them since last week, and this week there arent any more available. Thats why its "sold out". Im sure there are copies for the webstore, but if stores are taking a lot of them, it probably means its popular.

Reminds me of the Noise Marine.
Nice model.
Expensive and unusable.
Don't buy it.

Guess what model just became available again after being sold out, 'by popular demand' :D

Of course, getting an idea of how well things should sell is something they should have worked out decades ago,

ha ahahahahah hahaha b hahaahaha

That right there is the holy grail of retail. If any company actually had a way to know this, they'd retire from making and selling things and make a killing on consulting. Sure, there are better ways to guesstimate than whatever arcane ritual GW surely uses, but no company in the world can claim that they 100% know their demand. At best, they can say that they 100% make their demand, but even trend-setters / influencers screw up here and there.

If Apple, the first company to reach a trillion in value, couldnt accurately predict demand for their latest Iphone, why do you ask so much of GW?

[Avaris]

ha ahahahahah hahaha b hahaahaha

That right there is the holy grail of retail. If any company actually had a way to know this, they'd retire from making and selling things and make a killing on consulting. Sure, there are better ways to guesstimate than whatever arcane ritual GW surely uses, but no company in the world can claim that they 100% know their demand. At best, they can say that they 100% make their demand, but even trend-setters / influencers screw up here and there.

If Apple, the first company to reach a trillion in value, couldnt accurately predict demand for their latest Iphone, why do you ask so much of GW?

Oh absolutely it’s difficult to get good data, but I figure almost anything is better than what Games “we don’t need to do market research’ Workshop used to do! As said, this is a product in a somewhat new space, so good data opportunity! They’ll never be perfect, but at least now they’re trying!

[Wraith]

GW are a particularly egregious example. Just for one example, their entire initial run of Space Hulk back in 2011 sold out 3 days BEFORE the release date via mail order and preorder.

For a "limited release" that they had no intention of reprinting, it's unfathomable to call that a successful business venture - there's "not knowing exactly how many they would sell" and then there's "failing to provide for other 80% of the people who wanted to buy their product"!

[LansXero]

GW are a particularly egregious example. Just for one example, their entire initial run of Space Hulk back in 2011 sold out 3 days BEFORE the release date via mail order and preorder.

For a "limited release" that they had no intention of reprinting, it's unfathomable to call that a successful business venture - there's "not knowing exactly how many they would sell" and then there's "failing to provide for other 80% of the people who wanted to buy their product"!

on these things, scale is also an issue. Logistics and manufacture something have break points where you need to go from, say, a 1000 to 10000; 4000 or 3000 will cost nearly as much as 10000 will, with fewer units to soak the impact. So its not always just being clueless about demand, because even if they knew they could sell 4000 units, thats 6000 units worth of dead stock, so why bother?

[Avaris]

on these things, scale is also an issue. Logistics and manufacture something have break points where you need to go from, say, a 1000 to 10000; 4000 or 3000 will cost nearly as much as 10000 will, with fewer units to soak the impact. So its not always just being clueless about demand, because even if they knew they could sell 4000 units, thats 6000 units worth of dead stock, so why bother?

Yeah, GW has interesting supply logistics. 'Basic' stuff, like models, is all produced in house, but as soon as you get to books or card products it becomes much more complex. As an accountant, I find the glimpses of what the company is doing fascinating (and mildly terrifying in some of the decisions they make).

Edit: on dead stock, I wonder how much technology has improved their ability to cope with it. Internet sales likely mean a longer tail end of a product lifecycle, and it is easier to warehouse stuff with a computer organising it, so I'd guess they have more capacity for 'spare' stock.

[LansXero]

Yeah, GW has interesting supply logistics. 'Basic' stuff, like models, is all produced in house, but as soon as you get to books or card products it becomes much more complex. As an accountant, I find the glimpses of what the company is doing fascinating (and mildly terrifying in some of the decisions they make).

Edit: on dead stock, I wonder how much technology has improved their ability to cope with it. Internet sales likely mean a longer tail end of a product lifecycle, and it is easier to warehouse stuff with a computer organising it, so I'd guess they have more capacity for 'spare' stock.

Except thats good money sitting there doing nothing. Investors dont invest so their money does nothing.

[Drasius]

GW are a particularly egregious example. Just for one example, their entire initial run of Space Hulk back in 2011 sold out 3 days BEFORE the release date via mail order and preorder.

For a "limited release" that they had no intention of reprinting, it's unfathomable to call that a successful business venture - there's "not knowing exactly how many they would sell" and then there's "failing to provide for other 80% of the people who wanted to buy their product"!

See, this is the issue, 'cause we had a box (or was it two?) of space hulk sit in our store for literally years before getting sent back to the warehouse. Space Hulk sold extremely poorly in Australia, and IIRC, we normally snap up the boardgames pretty quickly.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, look at what kick-started sisters - cannonnes verydian sold out 3 times in a week and turned out to be sufficiently popular to change from limited release to store item (albeit webstore only). Again however, she sold really well here in Oz, but the extra stock they got after selling out the first 2 times came from other areas where people didn't buy it.

[Avaris]

Except thats good money sitting there doing nothing. Investors dont invest so their money does nothing.

Depends on the cost ratios. In GW’s case there is a heavy upfront cost (the design and moulds) and then a cheap per unit production cost (the minis themselves). To make your upfront costs back you want to maximise the number of sales you make overall, which generally means capturing as many sale opportunities as possible. If product is unavailable, it’s a missed sale opportunity.

Historically, running a warehouse would be a large cost. With technology now, it might be cheaper. There will be a point where the per unit cost of warehousing is low enough that it is profitable to overproduce and store in order to capture the tail end of sales. I don’t know if GW is at that level atm; an alternative may be that their factory technology allows them to do very small runs of models efficiently, which would allow them to fulfill the tail end sales without needing to warehouse. Point is, I suspect that technology in their factory/warehouse, and online selling, is proving very useful in extending a product’s availability and profitability.

(Incidentally, I’m expecting to come into some money soon, and very tempted to invest some in GW. Wish I’d done so a few years back though!)

[Brookshw]

See, this is the issue, 'cause we had a box (or was it two?) of space hulk sit in our store for literally years before getting sent back to the warehouse.

That was true of my local store as well. Iirc, the owner stocked 3 boxes and had them for years. I finally bought one almost two years ago, I think the other two are still sitting there.

[LansXero]

That was true of my local store as well. Iirc, the owner stocked 3 boxes and had them for years. I finally bought one almost two years ago, I think the other two are still sitting there.

Werent they going for a ton on ebay? He should probably try doing that,

[Cheesegear]

Werent they going for a ton on ebay? He should probably try doing that,

It depends. Space Hulk was re-released so it doesn't go for as much as it used to.

ION;
As predicted, GSC is rolling nerds. They have pre-nerf Agents of Vect. They have a silver bullet against the meta which basically says 'No Advancing on Turn 1' (there are only like...Three [?] ways around it). Also, they're played as a horde to hold Objectives. Also, they have access to a variety of cheap Guard units. So everything can be cheap, if you want it to be. GSC Brigades, go!

Similar to Orks, all of the new releases range from bad to 'I guess it's pretty good...In this specific situation...' and the best build for a horde army relies on what their Troops can do. Anyone who can afford 100 Acolytes (they come 5 to a box...) has definitely paid a ****-load of money to win games. Neophytes aren't quite as good as Acolytes. But, they're much cheaper to acquire and you get more of them.

[Brookshw]

Anyone who can afford 100 Acolytes (they come 5 to a box...) has definitely paid a ****-load of money to win games.

Seriously. Time to wait for the start collecting.

[Cheesegear]

Also, how come nobody's mentioning the kick-ass female space pirate model coming out of Combat Arena? You don't even need to convert it to make it less boring.
That model is so much cooler than a female Commissar (that's also resin), that the female Commissar may as well be a joke model to sell to idiots...Who even uses Commissars? Let alone bad ones that only work well if you put them in an awful situation.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, how come nobody's mentioning the kick-ass female space pirate model coming out of Combat Arena? You don't even need to convert it to make it less boring.
That model is so much cooler than a female Commissar (that's also resin), that the female Commissar may as well be a joke model to sell to idiots...Who even uses Commissars? Let alone bad ones that only work well if you put them in an awful situation.

Who uses Commissars? Anyone who wants to fill the Elites slots of a Brigade for 48 points.

[LansXero]

Also, how come nobody's mentioning the kick-ass female space pirate model coming out of Combat Arena? You don't even need to convert it to make it less boring.
That model is so much cooler than a female Commissar (that's also resin), that the female Commissar may as well be a joke model to sell to idiots...Who even uses Commissars? Let alone bad ones that only work well if you put them in an awful situation.

Shadespire is on its last legs, not sure shadespire40k will be a hit. But, Im sure recasters will have the models for like 5$ each a month or so after it releases, so thats good at least.

[bluntpencil]

Also, how come nobody's mentioning the kick-ass female space pirate model coming out of Combat Arena? You don't even need to convert it to make it less boring.
That model is so much cooler than a female Commissar (that's also resin), that the female Commissar may as well be a joke model to sell to idiots...Who even uses Commissars? Let alone bad ones that only work well if you put them in an awful situation.

She's awesome! That servo-skull reloading the revolver really makes it for me. The female Primaris Psyker is cool, too.

[Requizen]

Shadespire is on its last legs, not sure shadespire40k will be a hit. But, Im sure recasters will have the models for like 5$ each a month or so after it releases, so thats good at least.

I don't think any of the board games they showed off were supposed to be Underworld-esque living games, just one-off board games with new models. Or at least, that was my impression of them.

[Avaris]

I don't think any of the board games they showed off were supposed to be Underworld-esque living games, just one-off board games with new models. Or at least, that was my impression of them.

Yeah, the game is basically a reskin of Gorechosen. Apparently the models will also be available through another set as well, I’m guessing a Blackstone Fortress expansion.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, the game is basically a reskin of Gorechosen. Apparently the models will also be available through another set as well, I’m guessing a Blackstone Fortress expansion.

Combat Arena is explicitly a 'prequel' to Blackstone Fortress.

[Avaris]

Combat Arena is explicitly a 'prequel' to Blackstone Fortress.

Yeah, so I’m guessing the models may show up in Blackstone Fortress itself

[Cheesegear]

Thoughts on Second Imperial Assassins Index

Execution Force: Get a CP if you take one of each Assassin. Not really worth it. But it's certainly worth more than nothing. Is it worth taking one of each Assassin? ...Not really. You can take the minimum 3. Or you can spend an extra 85 Points for 1 CP...And they all have to be different before you can take a second of one? This ain't no Guard Battalion.

Vindicare
- Ignores modifiers to hit if it doesn't move. Nice.
- If a model takes damage (that means Ignore Wounds can nullify this ability) from a Vindicare's ranged weapon, start doing a Psychic Maelstrom. This is...Pretty good. Psychic Maelstrom is great. But it rarely does more than 1 or 2 wounds. So, if your dice roll hot you can do 5 wounds and kill more than a few Characters in the game. If your dice don't roll hot...Whatever.

Overall, a Vindicare has been legitimately buffed. But, for a ranged Character-killer, the major problem is the inability to move properly and/or ignore Line of Sight. The main move is to show up on Turn 2, 9-12" away, and pop someone in the face with the Pistol, not with the Rifle.

Callidus
- +1 Damage on the Phase Sword is a huge buff for a character-killer, and actually allows a Callidus to assassinate her intended targets.

Supreme Deception makes a Callidus a must-have. However, with things being as they are, there is almost no benefit to having more than one Callidus, and every other Callidus you have, you're better off with...

Eversor
- Bio-Meltdown is 6" Holy crap!
- Falling Back from his model has drawbacks. Turns out nobody gives a **** about Eversors firing on Overwatch 'cause that's not their job. So that's a nice buff. How awesome is it Consolidating into a Vehicle (see next). Except the Vehicle can't shoot...So it Falls Back...And then you chuck a free Melta Bomb at it.
- Everytime this model slays a model, it can make an additional attack. In addition, this model can consolidate 6", which is a massive deal when combined with Stimm Overload to Fight again against a new unit. When you're dealing with Eversors, character-placement becomes a massive factor of how you're going to deploy.

Not Fixed: Eversors still can't declare Charges against models over 12" away, despite rolling 3D6" for Charge.

These models are Turn 2 monsters. At only 85 Points each, it's very easy to hold them back and not really lose anything as far as your army goes. If you're taking 3 Eversors, you're doing it right. Sure. Only one of them will be able to Fight again at the end of the phase. But Eversors will be dropping nerds all day.

Culexus
- Friendly Psykers now take the -2 to do stuff. Lame. Though to be honest, it was weird that Pariahs were selective in whose Warp they screwed over. But, that said, it makes it just that much more difficult to use, especially when Sororitas can bring more than enough anti-Psyker Defense, in Battalions for even more CPs.

Not Fixed: A Culexus still changes your opponents' WS/BS to 6+, instead of 'only being hit on an unmodified 6'. Which means that anything with -1 to hit for any reason (e.g; Smash Captains with Thunder Hammers), literally can't hit it. That said, it's always important to remember that every model in the game - regardless of wargear - has access to a S-User, AP- weapon.

TBD; How do you get access to Assassin Stratagems? Most Factions require you to have a [Faction] Detachment already in your army before you get access to Stratgems. Which means that it's highly likely that Operative Requisition Sanctioned can't just 'be used'. You'll have to have an Assassin Detachment in your army already before you get an additional tailored one. This will almost definitely be the case. But we'll see when the White Dwarf is actually out.
...Found it.

[Turalisj]

Stratagem section specifies that you just need an imperium warlord. Cypher summoning assassins is a thing.

[Cheesegear]

Stratagem section specifies that you just need an imperium warlord. Cypher summoning assassins is a thing.

Ah. I see it.
Yeah. That was brought up today, and it seems like a really bad idea. Cypher is effectively unusable. If you want Cypher to take a whole Detachment to himself, and be a Warlord without a Warlord Trait, just so you can 'Summon' a single Assassin at the start of the game...You do that.

Cypher hasn't been usable since the Index.

[Wraith]

Cypher hasn't been usable since the Index.

Sure he is. Just play Deathwatch in Kill Team. He's now a Watch Captain with a Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Blade, and the rest of your guys are Fallen with cool 30k wargear.

oh you meant his stats, right....

[JNAProductions]

Vindicare still ignores Invulns, right?

[CN the Logos]

So, I've been considering getting into Kill Team with Genestealer Cults. I have the Purestrain Genestealers from Space Hulk, and a Broodlord I put on a 40mm base for display (could be a Counts as Aberrant?). Just curious before I get my heart set on the idea only to have it broken; how much would I need to buy to make them viable? No, I don't want to do 'Nids, even though Purestrains apparently don't get the Cult Ambush rule. I'm thinking of this as a sort of double-dipping hobby project; I'll be able to use them both in Kill Team and with the optional Cultist rules for Space Hulk.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Sure he is. Just play Deathwatch in Kill Team. He's now a Watch Captain with a Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Blade, and the rest of your guys are Fallen with cool 30k wargear.

oh you meant his stats, right....

You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

[Wraith]

So, I've been considering getting into Kill Team with Genestealer Cults. I have the Purestrain Genestealers from Space Hulk, and a Broodlord I put on a 40mm base for display (could be a Counts as Aberrant?). Just curious before I get my heart set on the idea only to have it broken; how much would I need to buy to make them viable? No, I don't want to do 'Nids, even though Purestrains apparently don't get the Cult Ambush rule. I'm thinking of this as a sort of double-dipping hobby project; I'll be able to use them both in Kill Team and with the optional Cultist rules for Space Hulk.

The Genestealers and Broodlord would probably be quite happy as Metamorphs - they're the guys who use "bioweapons" like claws and talons, so minimum converting would be necessary. If you're looking to spend points rather than RL money, make the Broodlord into your Metamorph Leader if you want to; either way, experiment to decide whether you prefer them as Metamorphs or as Genestealers, they have fairly similar roles so you won't need both.

The easiest thing to buy after that would be a box of Neophyte Hybrids. You get more than enough models to make up a full sized Kill Team with a selection of decent weapons - mining lazer, flamer, heavy stubber - and a couple of regal looking guys who would serve as your Neophyte Leader and/or Cult Icon. Along with your "Metamorphs" you'd have some good variety between close combat choices and a backup of bodies with guns.

This is by far your cheapest option, but not the "best" option if you want to have the "best" Kill Team available to GSC.
The Neophytes box doesn't really contain any model that would make a suitable Aberrant or any Acolytes Hybrids - they have distinctly different weapon choices available, like the rock drill, rock cutter, etc. Similarly, nearly all of the GSC abilities and special gear makes you better in the Fight phase, so focusing heavily on Shooting can leave you lacking.
If you want a competitive list, you should consider having Acolytes with the mining weapons - they're good weapons that synergise well with your abilities, and some of your Tactics only work if you have Acolytes with those weapons so you're giving yourself more options to play in the game.

You could keep the box of Neophytes and convert a couple of them to have a rock drill or rock cutter... but the best way to get those parts is probably to buy a box of Acolytes, which defeats the point of converting them.

So, a box of Neophytes is a really good start and a box of Acolytes is highly recommended. Turning one of the 5 that you get in the box into an Aberrant would be a fairly simple task, and also a fairly good idea too - Aberrants are REALLY scary!

That makes 2 boxes, each at $40US, which will give you a selection of good models to make your Kill Team and a few spares for you to swap in and out when you want to try something different, or if you want extra parts to turn a couple of guys into one Aberrant (which you should).

• Focus on your close combat equipment - rock drills, rock cutters, boneswords - with a few ranged Neophytes backing you up so that you get the most out of your Tactics.
• Flamers are good. They autohit when Overwatching and thus deter your opponent from charging you, which is great because you always want to be the one making the charge.
• Don't go nuts with the guns though - You don't need a heavy stubber AND a grenade launcher AND a selection of small arms, because if you try to out-shoot most opponents then they will usually be better at it.
• Don't be afraid to change your list. None of the Kill Teams should be able to win every fight with the same list, so having some spare guys with different roles on hand is big and clever.
• Typically, taking more bodies is better than more equipment. Though really good in their chosen role, GSC are a little on the fragile side - if you have one bad turn and lose your Acolytes/Genestealers to some lucky shots, you will be in real trouble if all you have left are Neophytes. Then again, feel free to experiment - load up with Acolytes and Genestealers, put a Cult Icon in the middle and see what happens, it will be a very different experience.
• Have fun.

[Cheesegear]

So with Assassins being Summonable, and you don't have to tell your opponent which you have until after you Summon it (i.e; You can tailor), it now behooves people to have one of each Assassin. If not at least for Summoning, at least for the Execution Force CP. Since the Assassin models are expensive and some of them look terrible, it's time to get converting!

The one I'm having the most trouble with, is the Eversor. That Needle Pistol is pretty hard to replicate. I thought about converting up a Ruststalker/Infiltrator...But those are way too big and are sized for 40mm bases, not 32s.

[Turalisj]

Luckily, I have a Van Saar sprue I never used.