Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[The_Admiral]

Joke list I'm planning on taking to a thing is 4 Warglaives and 2 Helverins at 1K points.

It's just enough to fit all that in as well. It'll be hillarious.

[Cheesegear]

I asked and the general consensus was "because she's cool". I think we might be getting into subjective stuff here.

Yep. Great. What makes her cool? Explain it to me. Which part(s) of the model is cool? An opinion means nothing to me unless it's explained to me how someone formed that opinion. How do I get to where they're at, so I'm in a position to want to buy Raine, as well? The advertisement didn't work on me. But it did on others. Why?

Has anyone read the book? Tell me about her. No. Because the book was released on the same day she was. I love 40K. But I'm still not going to even buy Honourbound for at least another month, let alone read it.

But, purchasing a limited model of a lore-focused female Commissar is a show of solidarity with GW saying "yes, I'll buy this because I like what it represents and what you're trying to do".

...But that's the thing. They did it in the worst way possible.
The other thing, and I hate to break this to you, but Brands and Corporations are not your friend. The exact same corporation that is selling you a female model, is selling said model at more-than-twice the price of normal, and in resin, and with rules that are terrible.

What you're supposed to do, is sell the novel. If the novel is killer and people love it, six months later you start working on the model and when it comes out she flies off the shelf.
You also try a little bit harder than not-at-all to make the model stand out as a unique character piece.

Why would anyone buy Eisenhorn?

Because he's a kick-ass model, that can be use as a solid conversion base for pretty much anything you can think of, just in case his rules are terrible (they are). The Eisenhorn model can't be replicated. You either buy it, or you're done, as far as replicating that cool coat goes. Inquisitors can be slotted in to almost any <Imperium> army, so the 'net' for customer demand is wider. So even if you don't want Eisenhorn for Eisenhorn, you still get a kick-ass Inquisitor that you can use.
The lore that his model represents constitutes three novels that were critically and commercially acclaimed, released and re-released constantly for over a decade. Numbers don't lie. If you read 40K, one of the first things anyone will tell you to read is Eisenhorn. I don't agree with that. But that's how much people love the books.
For the price of the resin kit...At least you get two fairly unique models. Besides, the real options for Inquisitors and a Daemonhost are also resin. So either way, you have to be happy with it.

That's why people bought the model. I agree with all of those things even if...

Ew, a resin model? And his rules aren't even that good

...I didn't buy the model myself.

Joke list I'm planning on taking to a thing is 4 Warglaives and 2 Helverins at 1K points.

You can take 9-10 Armigers & Guilliman, at 2K. It's just as dumb as it sounds. Either you wont get games at all, or you'll be tabled in three turns.

[Requizen]

...But that's the thing. They did it in the worst way possible.
The other thing, and I hate to break this to you, but Brands and Corporations are not your friend. The exact same corporation that is selling you a female model, is selling said model at more-than-twice the price of normal, and in resin, and with rules that are terrible.

Well like I said, I'm not buying it. And even if I still had my Guard, I probably wouldn't get it.

I mentioned before, while I appreciate what they're doing, it's obviously calculated and not really from a place of altruism, just like any other ad, social media post, or publicity stunt that any company makes. I get that. But for some people, a token publicity stunt is better than nothing, and by supporting it they tell the company that they will support further publicity stunts.

If no one buys her because she has bad rules and is finecast, then some yahoo in marketing might take the low sales as "no one wants female single release models, make another Primaris Lieutenant". We all want to believe that they would be more savvy than that, but it's not guaranteed. At the very least, selling out of her indicates to GW that future singular female Heroes might sell just as well, and for people who want more, that's important enough to drop the dosh on. Or to encourage them to even just write more into books like they did with this one.

Either way, you asked for a reason that people might want to buy it. I'm just providing it. Many people buy models for reasons other than rules, and don't like to kitbash from 3rd parties. I can empathize with that.

[Cheesegear]

If no one buys her because she has bad rules and is finecast, then some yahoo in marketing might take the low sales as "no one wants female single release models, make another Primaris Lieutenant". We all want to believe that they would be more savvy than that, but it's not guaranteed.

Celestine was sold out every other month at my store, and she costs almost two thirds again on top of what Raine does. I couldn't tell you if her slow-down in sales was because of the nerf, or because after 2 years, she's reached 'peak saturation', and everyone who wants her, has her, and as a Unique model, nobody needs more than one.

Callidus Assassins are frequently sold out...And they cost about the same as Raine does, now. People at my store are (apparently) going to line up this week when the store's stock comes in, because the store only gets 1 per week, so it's first come, first serve. The Blackshirt tried to tell people that they can just order it online. You can even pay for and have it delivered to the store! It's almost like you bought it from the store anyway, support your local, amirite?

I don't think the clam-pack of Greyfax has moved since she was unshackled from Celestine, the model people really wanted put on the shelf.

Celestine and the Callidus share something in common, that Greyfax doesn't have.

Either way, you asked for a reason that people might want to buy it.

But you didn't buy it. Whatever you like about the model, was over-ridden by what you don't like about the model. You're on my side.

[Requizen]

Celestine was sold out every other month at my store, and she costs almost two thirds again on top of what Raine does.
Callidus Assassins are frequently sold out...And they cost about the same as Raine does, now.

I don't think the single-release clam-pack of Greyfax has moved since it was put on the shelf.



But you didn't buy it. Whatever you like about the model, was over-ridden by what you don't like about the model. You're on my side.

Well most of the reason I didn't buy it is because I don't really play 40k anymore and when I do, I don't play that army. I also didn't buy the new Kill Team box with the Kelermorph even though that's a super dope model, that doesn't mean I'm on the side of disliking it.

[9mm]

GSC FAQ is out

no more infinite mortals and vect strat nerfed.

[Brookshw]

GSC FAQ is out

no more infinite mortals and vect strat nerfed.

Actually, apparently the first upload was a WIP. The "final" version doesn't cap the mortal wounds machine. Now there are two versions floating around.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/w...r_cults_en.pdf

[Cheesegear]

Well most of the reason I didn't buy it is because I don't really play 40k anymore and when I do, I don't play that army.

Incorrect. You don't support lore-focused female models.
By not buying Raine, you are telling GW that you don't want female models. That's how it works, right?

that doesn't mean I'm on the side of disliking it.

If you didn't dislike it, you'd buy it.
It's almost like there are circumstances around the Kellermorph, not related to the Kellermorph itself, that causes you not to buy it.

[9mm]

Incorrect. You don't support lore-focused female models.
By not buying Raine, you are telling GW that you don't want female models. That's how it works, right?

That is absolutely not how it works.

If you didn't dislike it, you'd buy it.

No I can like a model, but knowing I'll never use it, save my money.

[Cheesegear]

That is absolutely not how it works.

Pretty sure it is.

No I can like a model, but knowing I'll never use it, save my money.

Nope. If you don't buy it. You don't support it. The marketing/PR team of the company, then gets to decide why you didn't buy it. PROTIP; A bad company will never blame themselves.

[Renegade Paladin]

Actually, apparently the first upload was a WIP. The "final" version doesn't cap the mortal wounds machine. Now there are two versions floating around.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/w...r_cults_en.pdf

The difference between the two seems to be that the first one contains this question and the second does not:

Q: If I successfully manifest the Mind Control psychic power and select an enemy model to shoot, how does that model target enemy Characters? A: Apply the Targeting Characters rule and treat the shooting model as part of your army in your Shooting phase in relation to this rule.

[LeSwordfish]

Good to see that mining lasers keep D6 damage. And their "agents of vect" stratagem is still cheaper but is one use only, which I think is probably better - creates a more interesting interplay.

[Brookshw]

The difference between the two seems to be that the first one contains this question and the second does not:

Pg1 of each, bottom right corner. One has a rule for mental onslaught (with the cap), the other doesn't. I can send you both versions if that's easier.

[Destro_Yersul]

Has anyone read the book? Tell me about her. No. Because the book was released on the same day she was. I love 40K. But I'm still not going to even buy Honourbound for at least another month, let alone read it.

I haven't read Honourbound, but there's a short story with her in the free Black Library anthology they handed out the other day, and I have read that. She's the Commissar of the 11th Antari rifles, a unit from a planet that apparently has dense forests and a lot of supersitions about what's lurking in them. It's also a mixed unit. She herself came out of the Schola, naturally for a commissar. Her mother was a famous lord general, her father was a coward who got executed. She's got a brass watch with her sister's name scratched into the case. One of the few people she actually trusts is the Stormtrooper sergeant.

There's more, but a lot of it comes down to the 40k protagonist standard of being strong-willed and a bad enough dude to dislocate your own thumb if it means you get to punch heretics who aren't expecting it. There's also stuff about some of the other soldiers in the Rifles. She strikes me as a pretty solid character, and not someone I'd be adverse to reading more about. The overall quality of the writing in the story was pretty high, especially for Black Library, though it's written in present tense which I always find a little weird. The mini was already sold out at the store I went to, and that was on Saturday.

[9mm]

The marketing/PR team of the company, then gets to decide why you didn't buy it. PROTIP; A bad company will never blame themselves.

No, because the marketing/pr team will do follow up research to find out why people did AND didn't buy a thing. Protip: bad companies ignore the follow up research.

[Cheesegear]

At least GW confirms their ass-backwards production schedule.

Designer’s Note: This publication went to print before the
changes to the Drukhari Stratagem ‘Agents of Vect’ were made.
To make this Stratagem different whilst still maintaining game
balance, we have decided to make this Stratagem one use only
rather than increasing the Command Point cost.

If FAQ 2 came out in September, then GSC was printed 7-8 months before its actual release. Which means that the Sisters' Codex is printing real soon - if it hasn't already. Hope you got your feedback in.

[9mm]

So odd question, anybody got a file to make black squad markings transfers with? Since GW seems to think that people only want white markings.

[Cheesegear]

So odd question, anybody got a file to make black squad markings transfers with? Since GW seems to think that people only want white markings.

For what Faction?

[9mm]

For what Faction?

I just need the arrows, triangles, crosses, ect for marines. Already got my custom chapter symbol made.

[JNAProductions]

Spoiler: Rusted Claw

Show

Rusted Claw Brigade

HQs
125-Patriarch
70-Jackal Alphus
75-Primus
270

Troops
160-20 Acolytes with all Handflamers
160-20 Acolytes with all Handflamers
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
540

Elites
55-Clamavus
60-Kellermorph
60-Sanctus with Silenced Rifle
175

Fast Attack
163-8 Atalan Jackals with 8 Shotguns, 5 Demolition Charges, and 3 Cultist Knives, plus 2 Atalan Wolfquads with Shotguns and Atalan Incinerators
163-8 Atalan Jackals with 8 Shotguns, 5 Demolition Charges, and 3 Cultist Knives, plus 2 Atalan Wolfquads with Shotguns and Atalan Incinerators
163-8 Atalan Jackals with 8 Shotguns, 5 Demolition Charges, and 3 Cultist Knives, plus 2 Atalan Wolfquads with Shotguns and Atalan Incinerators
489

Heavy Support
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
117

1,591

Rusted Claw Battalion

HQs
80-Magus
70-Jackal Alphus
53-Acolyte Iconward
203

Troops
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
165

Elite
40-Locus
40

408
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

Total points are 1,999 on the nose.

This is my first list after getting the 'Dex, so I'm assuming there's massive space for improvement. Please assist.

[Cheesegear]

I just need the arrows, triangles, crosses, ect for marines. Already got my custom chapter symbol made.

I used this one. I needed 30 Tactical Arrows, so I copy-pasted the row and printed them out. I botched it 'cause something happened with the paper where it dried eggshell instead of transparent, which the instructions said wouldn't happen. So I don't have any photos of the result. But if I was going to attempt it again, that's the file I'd use.

This one is also good, but the Devastator symbol is wrong, so I didn't go with it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Pg1 of each, bottom right corner. One has a rule for mental onslaught (with the cap), the other doesn't. I can send you both versions if that's easier.

Ah. One erratas Mental Onslaught and the other erratas Mind Control. I was checking column by column to find what was missing from the one that was shorter and since those two entries take up the same amount of page space I glossed over it.

[JNAProductions]

Spoiler: Take Two-Twisted Helix

Show

Twisted Claw Battalion

HQs
75-Primus
53-Acolyte Iconward
128

Troops
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
330

Elite
60-Kellermorph
60

518

Twisted Claw Battalion

HQs
125-Patriarch
80-Magus
205

Troops
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
330

Elites
60-Kellermorph
252-8 Abberants with Picks and 2 Hypermorphs with Improvised Weapons
312

847

Twisted Claw Battalion

HQs
75-Primus
105-Abominant
180

Troops
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
55-5 Acolytes with 2 Rock Saws
275

Elite
60-Kellermorph
60

Heavy Supports
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
39-Heavy Weapons Team with Mortars
117

632
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

1,998 points.

[9mm]

I used this one. I needed 30 Tactical Arrows, so I copy-pasted the row and printed them out. I botched it 'cause something happened with the paper where it dried eggshell instead of transparent, which the instructions said wouldn't happen. So I don't have any photos of the result. But if I was going to attempt it again, that's the file I'd use.

This one is also good, but the Devastator symbol is wrong, so I didn't go with it.

thanks, the first one worked great.

[The_Admiral]

You can take 9-10 Armigers & Guilliman, at 2K. It's just as dumb as it sounds. Either you wont get games at all, or you'll be tabled in three turns.

It's a 1K event, which is why I'm taking the all armiger meme list. Like I don't intend to win.

[Avaris]

At least GW confirms their ass-backwards production schedule.



If FAQ 2 came out in September, then GSC was printed 7-8 months before its actual release. Which means that the Sisters' Codex is printing real soon - if it hasn't already. Hope you got your feedback in.

When I was at Warhammer World a few weeks ago I had achat with the guy who is monitoring the feedback. He reckons they got about 300 responses in iirc, which is less than what I was expecting given the size of the hobby.

In other news, the latest Stormcast podcast is very interesting for those who have an interest in how GW is evolving. There is discussion of how the three ways to play came to be and are intended to be used, discussion of the origin of things like Underworlds and it’s place in the hobby ecosystem, and confirmation of the numbers of rules writers (4 for 40k, 3 for AoS).

Edit: having now finished listening to the podcast, another interesting point which gives some insight into the future for stuff like tactical marines. GW has committed that all currently available models will continue to be supported, but they know they can’t necessarily balance that for competitive play. So older stuff not in the current range will get rules such as being seen in AoS as Warhammer Legends, intended for narrative or open play, but not for competitive stuff.

This makes me think we’ll start to see a two tier system of rules, with a more limited pool available to matched play but hopefully better balance. Thr first likely step towards this will be shifting units that are only in the indexes out of the competitive game, then starting to retire stuff like the tacticals. Rules will still exist for them, but they’ll be openly acknowledged as not up to date with current balance. Hopefully they’ll still have points, but I’m doubtful...

[Cheesegear]

The first likely step towards this will be shifting units that are only in the indexes out of the competitive game

They're already doing this. If a Codex is out for the Faction, nothing in the Index is being Errata'd. A good example is the Captain on Bike. Came down in an appreciable amount of points - but <Fly> is still awesome. Did anything else on Bikes come down in points? ...No, because those are Index units and don't count as being part of the game. If you're only just realising that Index-only units are being phased out of the game, I don't know what to tell you.

then starting to retire stuff like the tacticals.

As far as I'm concerned Tactical Marines were phased out of the game when 8th Ed. started.
The problem is whether that means all non-Primaris models will be phased out of the game - including Vehicles? How far will GW take that? Will they remove Death Company and Black Knights from the game? Or are we looking at a 2-3-year plan that includes re-doing every single box in the range as a Primaris box?

One Narrative that's going around is...

'Guilliman demands everyone undertake the same Primaris-procedure that Guilliman did.'
The procedure has a 60% death rate, which gives GW free reign to kill off any Characters they want to, whilst Primarising and re-designing selling the rest.

[Brookshw]

No, because those are Index units and don't count as being part of the game.

Citation needed. I grant that some TOs and metas may not accept them, but index only units are very much a part of the game and the only official statement we have from GW on the matter supports their inclusion. If they decide to change their ruling on the topic as a go forward then that's another matter. If you reply to this, please provide your citation before we go down this rabbit hole again.

GW has committed that all currently available models will continue to be supported, but they know they can’t necessarily balance that for competitive play. So older stuff not in the current range will get rules such as being seen in AoS as Warhammer Legends, intended for narrative or open play, but not for competitive stuff.

So balancing the points of a Big Mek on bike, or Shrikes, is somehow difficult? Please, we're talking less than "add a jet pack" level of difference between the current codex units and the practically identical index units. Nothing against you of course, but that's a damned silly claim for GW.

Leaves me wondering what they'll do with outliers such as the rifleman dreadnoughts which has the necessary bits available from Forgeworld but is index only (last I checked).

[LeSwordfish]

'Guilliman demands everyone undertake the same Primaris-procedure that Guilliman did.'
The procedure has a 60% death rate, which gives GW free reign to kill off any Characters they want to, whilst Primarising and re-designing selling the rest.

I feel like if GW said "tycho tried to become a primaris but wasnt awesome enough. he's canon dead. model no longer available" they'd get letterbombed. Who's spreading this narrative?

[Cheesegear]

the only official statement we have from GW on the matter supports their inclusion.

When was the last time you saw an Index unit get their points adjusted after their Faction received a Codex?
By choosing not to re-adjust older models, they are choosing not to give a **** about them. That's an official statement if I ever saw one.

"You can use them if you want... However, be aware that we're incentivised to keep them bad and/or not re-balance them towards any changes in the meta that might happen down the road, so you'll be forced to buy new models."

How is a business practice different from a statement of intent?

It's the same with Second Sororitas Index being announced right after 'toxic masculinity' discussions.

It's like people wanted GW to say "In response to accusations about our company and our consumers, we're going to release more female models from now on in order to include more representation so that YouTube and Twitter will shut up about it (and also please stop flooding our Facebook now, kay)."
...Or...They can just do it. And people who know what's going on, know why.

There was no official statement. They just did it.

There's no official statement saying that GW doesn't support Index units...They just don't, without saying anything, 'cause why do they need to?

"We're going to slow down progression in [video game] so that we can gouge you for money."
They don't say that. They just do it.

Rather than say "We're no longer supporting Tactical Marines." and get hate-mail forever.
They're just going to choose not to buff them when time comes around - just like they haven't been.