Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Requizen]

It's almost like they're waiting to release daemon-Angron and a World Eaters codex

Adepticon is gonna be wild, I tell you what.

I'll be at the panel, I'd live-post about it but I think everyone will be sleeping and just waiting for the actual WC post an hour later

[Wraith]

Rules for the Lord Discordant (the dude riding on the metal shrimp-spider thing) have been unveiled.

No points cost yet, but for Power 9 we can possibly assume somewhere in the region of 90-120. He's going to make a mess of Ad.Mech if they shoot anything that isn't him, and if Mechanised Orks are a thing they probably won't enjoy it much either, but I'm not seeing meta-destroying potential here.

[Blackhawk748]

Rules for the Lord Discordant (the dude riding on the metal shrimp-spider thing) have been unveiled.

No points cost yet, but for Power 9 we can possibly assume somewhere in the region of 90-120. He's going to make a mess of Ad.Mech if they shoot anything that isn't him, and if Mechanised Orks are a thing they probably won't enjoy it much either, but I'm not seeing meta-destroying potential here.

Well lets look this over:

Autocannon or Baleflamer: Ok, im not sure how expensive a Baleflamer is, but since I assume this dude wants to be in melee, you'll probably go with that.

Chainglaive: Ok, so AP -2 is ok, and the +2 S makes him S6. With 4 attacks thats kinda medio- It does x2 S if he charges that turn? Ok, if its not terribly expensive thats actually pretty good.

Bladed Limbs and Tail: 5-3 S7 AP -2 Dam D3 attacks. Thats pretty solid

Technovirus Injector: On additional attack at S8 AP -4 Dam D3 and each successful wound causes D3 MW on a Vehicle unit. Ow.

Infernal Regen: Regains one wound per turn. Meh, but its there.

Aura of Discord: Give <Legion> Daemon Engines a +1 To Hit if they are within 6". Well thats nice. Also it makes enemy vehicles take a -1 if they are within 6", so they can't fight back.

Spirit Theif: When he kills an enemy vehicle he either rpairs a Daemon Engine (not sure why he can't just do that like everyone else does) or makes an enmy Vehicle within 12" take D3 MW on a 2+. I wonder which one everyone will be using.

All in all he has a very spiecific job, hunt vehicles while making Daemon ENgines suck less, and he does that fine. Now to wait to see how GW screwed up his pricing.

[Saambell]

Given how I have noticed a rough guide to PL>Pnts goes roughly 15-20 points per power level, I fear hes going to be more like 180 or close to. Like, a jump captain is 6PL or 112ish points, a Lord of Contagion is 7PL and about the same in points, its a fair guess at 9PL hes going to be pushing 150 or higher.

[LansXero]

Rules for the Lord Discordant (the dude riding on the metal shrimp-spider thing) have been unveiled.

No points cost yet, but for Power 9 we can possibly assume somewhere in the region of 90-120. He's going to make a mess of Ad.Mech if they shoot anything that isn't him, and if Mechanised Orks are a thing they probably won't enjoy it much either, but I'm not seeing meta-destroying potential here.

W12 is the most relevant stat there. If its ever a threat it will get shot to pieces before doing much of anything.

[Wraith]

Given how I have noticed a rough guide to PL>Pnts goes roughly 15-20 points per power level, I fear hes going to be more like 180 or close to. Like, a jump captain is 6PL or 112ish points, a Lord of Contagion is 7PL and about the same in points, its a fair guess at 9PL hes going to be pushing 150 or higher.

Admittedly, I compared it to Codex Space Marines units. A Predator is 9PP and that's 90 points, whereas 10 Black Templars Crusaders are 9PP and 130pts. I dunno if you get extra consideration for being a Monster or in a different place in the FoC.

Not a high-tier codex, nor high-tier units, just a ball-park assumption.

[LeSwordfish]

Admittedly, I compared it to Codex Space Marines units. A Predator is 9PP and that's 90 points, whereas 10 Black Templars Crusaders are 9PP and 130pts. I dunno if you get extra consideration for being a Monster or in a different place in the FoC.

Not a high-tier codex, nor high-tier units, just a ball-park assumption.

Remember that wargear is included - a predator is 90pts but runs around with more than 100pts of lascannons. I think 180pts is a safe ballpark guess.

[Voidhawk]

He’s a combat character, with more than ten wounds. Since he can be shot as he walks across the board, his weapons are far less important than his speed, survivability, and points cost. So let’s check them out:

Speed: 12” without fly. Can be renegade for advance+charge. BUT: speed decays as he takes damage. This guy’s probably not going to be making any turn 1 charges, and if the enemy knock off enough wounds he might not make a turn 2 either.

Defense: T6 W12 S2+/5++, regen, vehicle so can be healed by Warpsmiths. The regen and 2+ will keep him safe from light weaponry, but only T6 means he will get wrecked by anything serious.

Cost: power 9 means 180pts. Which is a lot, no two ways about it. Too much? Considering he achieves nearly nothing until he reaches combat, I think so. Sure, he makes Daemon Engines shoot better, but for that price you could just take another one. Support units shouldn’t cost the same as the units they support. If you’re already bringing 3 forge and maulerfiends he’ll have a place, but at the stage he’ll draw litterally all the AT firepower and never see turn 2 so it’s a wash anyway.

[Forum Explorer]

He’s a combat character, with more than ten wounds. Since he can be shot as he walks across the board, his weapons are far less important than his speed, survivability, and points cost. So let’s check them out:

Speed: 12” without fly. Can be renegade for advance+charge. BUT: speed decays as he takes damage. This guy’s probably not going to be making any turn 1 charges, and if the enemy knock off enough wounds he might not make a turn 2 either.

Defense: T6 W12 S2+/5++, regen, vehicle so can be healed by Warpsmiths. The regen and 2+ will keep him safe from light weaponry, but only T6 means he will get wrecked by anything serious.

Cost: power 9 means 180pts. Which is a lot, no two ways about it. Too much? Considering he achieves nearly nothing until he reaches combat, I think so. Sure, he makes Daemon Engines shoot better, but for that price you could just take another one. Support units shouldn’t cost the same as the units they support. If you’re already bringing 3 forge and maulerfiends he’ll have a place, but at the stage he’ll draw litterally all the AT firepower and never see turn 2 so it’s a wash anyway.

We don't know how much he'll cost though. Because Powerlevel is borked. Perhaps a maximum point value of 180 would be a better estimate. I mean, if he is 180 base, then he will be overcosted, but if he's around 150? I think he'll be reasonable.

[Drasius]

Power level is, generally speaking, [base cost + (most expensive upgrades cost * 0.75)] / 20 rounded to nearest whole number.

I'd expect at PL9 that he's going to be 150 or 160 base, then your choice of gun on top of that (almost certainly a baleflamer).

LansXero hit the nail on the head though, at 12W and character status, he's dead weight, doubly so at T6. Unless he's like, 100 points, it won't see the light of day in anything but casual lists at best.

[Grim Portent]

You can bump him to movement 14" based on the specialist detachment WT from the EC article. Puts him at the same odds of a turn 1 charge as chaos bikers. Not great, but if you're going to try running one it's probably the best thing to do with him.

Also havocs can now move and shoot with no penalty and the new chaingun is range 24" Heavy 8 S5 AP-1 D1. Basically a shorter range heavy bolter with more than double the shots. Heard they got bumped to T5 as well, but not seen a proper leak of that.

[Voidhawk]

You can bump him to movement 14" based on the specialist detachment WT from the EC article. Puts him at the same odds of a turn 1 charge as chaos bikers.

No, because if you’re taking bikers they’re going in a Red Corsair vanguard so they can advance a fixed number (I forget exactly what, 7” maybe?) and guarantee that turn 1 charge.

14+d6” advance isn’t bad by any means, but it requires jumping through a few hopes, and comparing it to one of the fastest units in the dex isn’t going to do anyone favours.

[Renegade Paladin]

Let Pask tell you about being a W12 character.

[LeSwordfish]

Let Pask tell you about being a W12 character.

Yeah and the first thing he'll say is "isn't it lovely being T8"

[Grim Portent]

No, because if you’re taking bikers they’re going in a Red Corsair vanguard so they can advance a fixed number (I forget exactly what, 7” maybe?) and guarantee that turn 1 charge.

14+d6” advance isn’t bad by any means, but it requires jumping through a few hopes, and comparing it to one of the fastest units in the dex isn’t going to do anyone favours.

Bikes advance for 6", so they have a guaranteed 20" movement when advancing. Lord Discordant is the only HQ that can get that fast in the dex, though it's not as reliable. I think the thing to do would be to give him the Talisman of Burning Blood for advance + charge as a non RC and the reroll to charge distance. As long as the enemy isn't hugging their backline he has good odds to make a charge provided the chaos player goes first.

Still not going to be an optimal use of the points, I think the obvious winner so far is bike/terminator characters from RC or BL with their relic bolters and the MoS. Easier to use, can't be shot out by any old heavy weapon, less points, etcetera

[Ornithologist]

Okay, so opinion time for mono Blood angels:

I got some reivers cheap, since they go with all the shadowspear stuff, and wanted some thoughts before I build them.

Grapel or grav shoots? I'd rather not spend the points for both. I know they aren't competitive, but I'm working on a theme list, and this is as close As I can get for some otherwise nice models.

I'm leaning grapel guns, but would like some imput.

[LansXero]

Let Pask tell you about being a W12 character.

You mean that wreck that didnt even get to save while getting blown up by a hemlock? Or the wreck that got Jinx'd then blown up with no saves by Dark Reapers? Or the wreck the Ravagers made dissapear turn 1?

I mean, T8 is better than T6, but Pask is no Imperial Knight when it comes to survivability. Hell, even Custodes Bikes are harder to kill than him. Its even canon that his ride will get wrecked from under him in every campaign he takes part of.

[Forum Explorer]

Power level is, generally speaking, [base cost + (most expensive upgrades cost * 0.75)] / 20 rounded to nearest whole number.

I'd expect at PL9 that he's going to be 150 or 160 base, then your choice of gun on top of that (almost certainly a baleflamer).

LansXero hit the nail on the head though, at 12W and character status, he's dead weight, doubly so at T6. Unless he's like, 100 points, it won't see the light of day in anything but casual lists at best.

I don't think T6 is going to be a big deal, he has a 2+/5++, so most small arms stuff like Assault Cannons and Shurikan Cannons will just bounce off anyways. And having an invulnerable makes him much more durable then a T7 tank with no invulnerable when it comes to actual anti-tank weaponry.

But you are right, I still don't think he will be competitive. I think I'll see him, because I see a lot of Forgefiends and Maulerfiends (and Defilers), so something that buffs those will end up getting used.

You mean that wreck that didnt even get to save while getting blown up by a hemlock? Or the wreck that got Jinx'd then blown up with no saves by Dark Reapers? Or the wreck the Ravagers made dissapear turn 1?

I mean, T8 is better than T6, but Pask is no Imperial Knight when it comes to survivability. Hell, even Custodes Bikes are harder to kill than him. Its even canon that his ride will get wrecked from under him in every campaign he takes part of.

It's tough to say what's better. Being T8 or lower then T8, but you have a 5++. Both (like Knights) is obviously best though.

[LansXero]

It's tough to say what's better. Being T8 or lower then T8, but you have a 5++. Both (like Knights) is obviously best though.

And ways to increase it. Does he get to use Warp Surge or the psychic power that also boosts inv. by 1? (last one is tzeentch though I think).

Meanwhile Pask gets... to order himself a -1 and get a psyker to put another -1 on him? I guess thats not nothing, but still getting no save vs Melta and saving on 6s against most anti-tank is junk, specially since if he gets tied up in melee (and Cadian static playstyle tends to lead to this) he has no way of getting himself out of it.

[Grim Portent]

And ways to increase it. Does he get to use Warp Surge or the psychic power that also boosts inv. by 1? (last one is tzeentch though I think).

Meanwhile Pask gets... to order himself a -1 and get a psyker to put another -1 on him? I guess thats not nothing, but still getting no save vs Melta and saving on 6s against most anti-tank is junk, specially since if he gets tied up in melee (and Cadian static playstyle tends to lead to this) he has no way of getting himself out of it.

He's HERETIC ASTARTES and DAEMON, so he can be buffed by Malefic, Dark Hereticus and I think the Chaos Daemon disciplines. Weaver of Fates works on him if he has the TZEENTCH keyword as long as it's not a 1k Sons casting it. He'll also benefit from Daemonic Loci bonuses I think.

Nurgle psykers can give him -1 to be hit, Slaanesh can give him a 5+ FnP or Tzeentch can give him +1 invulnerable. Bit of a toss up which is best imo.

Cursed Earth would give him +1, but a Master of Possession is way too slow to stay in reach of him.

Thinking about it he may be the easiest model to heal in the game right now. Warpsmiths can repair him, he regenerates, if he kills a vehicle he can heal a daemon engine for d3 and he is a daemon engine, and MoPs can heal him D3 with Sacrifice. He could go from nearly dead to fully healthy in one turn. I think the Hellwright from FW can also repair him.

[Drasius]

I don't think T6 is going to be a big deal, he has a 2+/5++, so most small arms stuff like Assault Cannons and Shurikan Cannons will just bounce off anyways. And having an invulnerable makes him much more durable then a T7 tank with no invulnerable when it comes to actual anti-tank weaponry.

But you are right, I still don't think he will be competitive. I think I'll see him, because I see a lot of Forgefiends and Maulerfiends (and Defilers), so something that buffs those will end up getting used.

Since when were assault cannons and Shuri Cannons small arms? Also, this guy is going to get taken apart by anti tank regardless of his invo because a 2+ facing down -3 guns is still a 5+. Sure, it's of benefit against -4 weapons, but then, he's also taking it in the shorts against autocannon equivalents because lol, T6. He's basically 2 Venoms stuck together without Fly or -1 to hit against almost any anti-tank you'd care to name. That'd be fine if he was ~130 points +/- guns, but if he's ~160ish, then that's just not gonna cut it.

It's tough to say what's better. Being T8 or lower then T8, but you have a 5++. Both (like Knights) is obviously best though.

Depends on the point cost doesn't it? Meta dependant I'd say for the most part too, since it's gonna depend on what you're getting shot with.

[Renegade Paladin]

You mean that wreck that didnt even get to save while getting blown up by a hemlock? Or the wreck that got Jinx'd then blown up with no saves by Dark Reapers? Or the wreck the Ravagers made dissapear turn 1?

I mean, T8 is better than T6, but Pask is no Imperial Knight when it comes to survivability. Hell, even Custodes Bikes are harder to kill than him. Its even canon that his ride will get wrecked from under him in every campaign he takes part of.

I know, that's the point. Being a Character with ten or more Wounds sucks.

[Forum Explorer]

Since when were assault cannons and Shuri Cannons small arms? Also, this guy is going to get taken apart by anti tank regardless of his invo because a 2+ facing down -3 guns is still a 5+. Sure, it's of benefit against -4 weapons, but then, he's also taking it in the shorts against autocannon equivalents because lol, T6. He's basically 2 Venoms stuck together without Fly or -1 to hit against almost any anti-tank you'd care to name. That'd be fine if he was ~130 points +/- guns, but if he's ~160ish, then that's just not gonna cut it.




Depends on the point cost doesn't it? Meta dependant I'd say for the most part too, since it's gonna depend on what you're getting shot with.

Since multi-damage became a thing. They are more anti-horde weapons, than anti-tank. Yeah, Autocannon equivalents hurt more, but I'd say having a 2+ is more valuable, since those guns are only AP -1.

It really does come down to points doesn't it? I think he'll be worth it if he is around 150, but more then that and he'll drop off fast.

[Drasius]

Since multi-damage became a thing. They are more anti-horde weapons, than anti-tank. Yeah, Autocannon equivalents hurt more, but I'd say having a 2+ is more valuable, since those guns are only AP -1.

It really does come down to points doesn't it? I think he'll be worth it if he is around 150, but more then that and he'll drop off fast.

Doesn't make them small arms, it makes them anti-infantry.

Getting wounded on 3's by autocannons and 4's by anti-infantry cannons is for chumps, 2+ or not.

The real question is going to be if he can eat enough fire-power meant for regular daemon engines to get into Melee in good condition. Given that he's less durable for more points, I'm not sure if he is going to hit the table very often.

If heldrakes could still charge over chaff, then we'd be talking, but since everyone knows how to screen, I don't know that they're going to be able to get him over the line either.

[Forum Explorer]

Doesn't make them small arms, it makes them anti-infantry.

Getting wounded on 3's by autocannons and 4's by anti-infantry cannons is for chumps, 2+ or not.

The real question is going to be if he can eat enough fire-power meant for regular daemon engines to get into Melee in good condition. Given that he's less durable for more points, I'm not sure if he is going to hit the table very often.

If heldrakes could still charge over chaff, then we'd be talking, but since everyone knows how to screen, I don't know that they're going to be able to get him over the line either.

Eh.

I'm not up to calculating the statistics of it. But it seems to be a pretty even trade. +1 to be wounded, but +1 to save it as well. For proper anti-tank weapons being S6 won't make a difference, but neither will the 2+ save.

I'd actually peg him as more durable, on average, than a normal daemon engine. They might be T7, but unless they have S6-7 weapons, that doesn't matter. But everyone has S4 weapons, and having a 2+ matters to that, but being T6 doesn't.

[Drasius]

Eh.

I'm not up to calculating the statistics of it. But it seems to be a pretty even trade. +1 to be wounded, but +1 to save it as well. For proper anti-tank weapons being S6 won't make a difference, but neither will the 2+ save.

I'd actually peg him as more durable, on average, than a normal daemon engine. They might be T7, but unless they have S6-7 weapons, that doesn't matter. But everyone has S4 weapons, and having a 2+ matters to that, but being T6 doesn't.

The problem is, they're also a lot less points IIRC, and that's the main sticking point (other than him being able to be targetted in the first place).

[Forum Explorer]

The problem is, they're also a lot less points IIRC, and that's the main sticking point (other than him being able to be targetted in the first place).

Maulerfiend: 144 at cheapest

Forgefiend: 140

Defiler: 136 at cheapest


It's worth noting that all their power levels are the same as or greater then the Lord Discordant. They started at around 160 points, but dropped in Chapter Approved.

[Drasius]

Maulerfiend: 144 at cheapest

Forgefiend: 140

Defiler: 136 at cheapest


It's worth noting that all their power levels are the same as or greater then the Lord Discordant. They started at around 160 points, but dropped in Chapter Approved.

That's going to be the big one isn't it? Has GW learnt that vehicles that aren't knights are bad and point it appropriately but leave power an unbalanced mess or have they learned nothing and will price it too high with a power level to match? IIRC, a Melee defiler was 170 or 172 at the start? If they price it in line with the old price, it's a non-starter, but if they price it as per the adjusted value, then it's pretty bad for the casual scum who are using power.

Who do you price it for, and how do you still miss the mark when you have had previous experience with similar chassis doing a similar job?

[Cheesegear]

Friend is practicing for a tournament. Told me to bring the hardest list I could. So I brought a post-Assassins version of my Waiting for Guilliman list.

Spoiler: Imperium (Ultramarines)

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Ultramarines, Spearhead
Pri-Marneus Calgar - 200 Points
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 115 Points

(W) Primaris Ancient; Standards of the Emperor Ascendant, Storm of Fire - 69 Points
Sternguard (x10); Special Issue Boltguns, SIB & Chainsword - 160 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Thunderfire Cannon; Flamer, Plasma Cutter - 92 Points

Operative Requisition Sanctioned (-1 CP)

Blood Angels, Battalion
Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, The Angel's Wing - 124 Points
Lemartes - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Combat Blades, Boltgun & Chainsword - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); Combat Blades, Boltgun & Chainsword - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); Combat Blades, Boltgun & Chainsword - 55 Points

Death Company with Jump Packs (x13); Boltguns & Chainswords (x7), Thunder Hammers (x6) - 356 Points

Armoury of Baal (-1 CP)
Death Visions of Sanguinius (-1 CP)

Cadian, Battalion
Company Commander; Kurov's Aquila - 30 Points
Primaris Psyker; Force Stave - 46 Points

Infantry Squad; Mortar - 45 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points

Heavy Weapons Squad; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points

Imperial Commander's Armoury (-1 CP)

Reinforcements - 85 Points

Total: 2000 Points | 10 CPs

• It's not my favourite list. I hate that the AM Battalion is there. But there is literally nothing I can do about that. Even if they were to go to five points per model, I'd still have to take them. I mean, +1 Point per model only represents 30 Points. So the Mortars would go next.
• I'm also tempted to find the points to make the AM Battalion Valhallan, so I can pick up 21 Conscripts for 84 Points, and have points for Send in the Next Wave! if I need even more scoring bodies on the table, especially as a single Assassin isn't going to be useful every game. It's just more options.
• It's less CPs than I'm used to having. But Blood Angels only ever need to use CPs once. Since the Devastators and Sternguard are actual threats, I expect them to die in the first two turns, if not sooner. So they're not actually CP sinks, especially against a good player who is motivated to target them down.
• Dropping Calgar as my Warlord still allows me to pick up Kurov's Aquila. So, ideally I get CPs back at some point.
• I also want to switch out the Thunderfire for a Wyvern. But with Calgar chucking out re-rolls to hit, it's pretty effective regardless. Even then, three Heavy slots is required for the Spearhead.
• I'm desperately feeling the pain of not having a Lieutenant. But, I also have to remember that I'm not actually playing Ultramarines. Losing rr1 to wound is made up for by the fact that the Death Company hit like a truck and it's all pieces to a puzzle, not a roulette table where you push everything you own onto one number and piss everything away.
• It's a little low on scoring presence - especially without Invulnerables and/or Ignore Wounds. But that's what you get when you play Space Marines.

Opponent's list. This may be familiar to some. I play him all the time.

Spoiler: Chaos (Black Legion)

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Black Legion, Battalion
Abaddon
Sorcerer with Jump Pack; Force Sword, Delightful Agonies, <Slaanesh>

Cultists (x40); Autoguns, <Slaanesh>
Cultists (x40); Autoguns, <Slaanesh>
Cultists (x40); Autoguns, <Slaanesh>

Questor Traitorus, Super-Heavies
Renegade Armigers (x2); 'Warglaives'
Renegade Armigers (x2); 'Helverins'
Renegade Armigers (x2); 'Helverins'

"But I read on BoLS that most people consider Troops a tax." ...Yeah. Most bads... If I could run more Guardsmen without sacrificing my own list's integrity, I would.

I figured that between Tide of Traitors, Veterans of the Long War, and Cacophony he probably wasn't going to do that noise until Turn 2, since he wasn't loading up with Alpha Legion like a <Heretic Astartes> Detachment would. Abaddon is clearly the driving the force of the list. But since my opponent deployed first, during my deployment choosing a Vindicare would've been pointless. However, if I did choose a Vindicare, Abaddon wouldn't be able to move. But that doesn't matter because I know how conga lines work. Culexus would be lame. There's one Psyker in his list, and two in mine. The Culexus would be more detrimental to me.
So the choice was between an Eversor, or a Callidus...I chose Eversor.

Turn 1 was a disaster when I forgot Armorium Cherubs were things that exist. So I didn't get First Strike and everything was bad. Obviously I didn't kill any Cultist unit because that's the point in having 40 per unit, with Abaddon.

Luckily, his Turn 1 was equally as bad. But slightly better than mine. He ended up throwing all of his Helverins into one unit of Devastators, which was pretty good as I could make saves for days.

Turn 2, my Death Company, Lemartes and Eversor came in. The Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard just dropped the Cultist screen, while my Death Company charged both Warglaives and killed both of them, and then consolidated into a unit of Cultists.

Tide of Traitors happened and my Death Company were standing around looking like idiots, as Cultists showed up in my DZ ready to make me a sad. My Death Company evaporated in one turn, which was pretty lame. But, they got me 2 VPs in a single phase, so at least they went out doing something.

Turn 3 is when I lost the game. By not shooting his Cultists in my DZ, he picked up 2 VPs. I had forgotten that since they had left the board they
a) Weren't in range of Abaddon, and
b) Didn't have Delightful Agonies up.
They would've been an easy kill with the Thunderfire and Sternguard. But, for some reason, I just didn't, and I tried to kill the harder Cultists who were in range of Abaddon. But the screen came down enough that Lemartes was in range to Charge the Sorcerer and beat its face in. So, while I did have an okay turn, I did so by handing my opponent 2 free VPs.

Turn 4 was bad, as I drew Scour the Skies and Witch Hunter for two-thirds of my cards that turn...Despite having done both last turn. Since Chapter Approved '18 is a thing, our meta doesn't do free discards anymore. Ouch. It's always painful drawing two cards you can't complete because you can only discard one, and I'd run out of CPs on Turn 3... ****.

His Turn 4, he had Helverins left which weren't doing anything now that their only targets were 1-wound Infantry models.

Since it's Sunday, the store was closing. So we called the game at the bottom of Turn 4 due to time (Can't slow-play in casual games).

Spoiler: Score

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This game was...Bad. I think both lists cancelled each other out fairly well, and as such it was a pretty low-scoring game.

8-8.

...Noting that I pretty much literally gave my opponent 2 VPs on Turn 3 due to a massive player mistake because while I was reading my cards, I wasn't reading his, and he had a DefObX on board which I could've easily prevented him from getting if I had just paid attention.

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Score

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...Noting that I pretty much literally gave my opponent 2 VPs on Turn 3 due to a massive player mistake because while I was reading my cards, I wasn't reading his, and he had a DefObX on board which I could've easily prevented him from getting if I had just paid attention.

All I can think of is the conversation we had a dozen pages back: Why wouldn't you score all the VPs you can? ...And here we go. Because by trying to kill the Sorcerer for 1, you ignored an objective and your opponent gained 2.

This is not "I told you so", we're both above such things. It's just very surprising serendipity