Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

[Thurbane]

Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer - their whole focus is on using skills.

I thought a 1 level dip of Archivist might be worthwhile for Dark Knowledge, and also to use any divine wands without needing to make a UMD check.

[Tempest Fennac]

That's a good point about Wands. DK isn't that great without a lot of Knowledge skill points, though. Also, don't forget that you'd lose some skill points while getting other features from your main class later).

[tyckspoon]

Archivist works best as a secondary skillmonkey in the role of 'guy who knows things', I think. He'll have a base need of about six skillpoints- four types of Knowledge for his Dark Knowledge abilities, and then Spellcraft and Concentration as per the standard for spellcasters. Only needs an Int of 14, which is almost a given, but from there it starts getting a little harder to tap the rest of his list. 7 points/level is reasonable too from either Int 16 or being human; 8's doable from both. Mono-focus or high value pointbuy could get you 9. Say you decide to also hit.. oh, Decipher Script, Gather Information, and Heal (probably without maxing Heal and Concentration, since the most common target DCs for those are fairly low.)

You don't have enough points or a broad enough list to do primary skillmonkey jobs, and the class doesn't offer enough for a dip (bard, rogue, and especially factotum do that better). But you can take some skills that are otherwise relatively rare or alternately almost mandatory, which either broadens your party's options or takes some load off everybody else's skill arrangements so they can take more unusual skills themselves.

[Turcano]

There are a couple more feats that you might want to check out.

The first is Trap Sensitivity from Dungeonscape, which allows characters to detect mechanical traps as though they were secret doors.

The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.

Also, which of the Ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel are worth taking (if any)? Most of them probably aren't worth it, but Disemboweling Strike and Persistent Attacker seem promising.

[Talic]

There's also a feat in the complete series somewhere that allows you to make a spot check vs target AC, and if you succeed, make your next attack a touch attack vs your target. Works really well when combined with the fact that generally, when you are attacking, they're flat footed too. Helps occasional combat accuracy needs.

[Turcano]

There's also a feat in the complete series somewhere that allows you to make a spot check vs target AC, and if you succeed, make your next attack a touch attack vs your target. Works really well when combined with the fact that generally, when you are attacking, they're flat footed too. Helps occasional combat accuracy needs.

That's Deft Strike from Draconomicon. And I think it only bypasses natural and armor bonuses (including relevant enhancements).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nightsong Infiltrator and Nightsong Enforcer are also both very solid Skillmonkey PrC's from Complete Adventurer. Infiltrator is more a skillmonkey, Enforcer is more of a full BAB rogue.

A Sample Build:

Infernal PITA

Spoiler

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Strongheart Halfling Rogue2/Warlock4/Swordsage2/Nightsong Infiltrator 10/Rogue 2

In brief:

Warlock4 gives plenty of fun stuff. First off, you get three Least invocations. These should be: Entropic Warding (Also known as Tracker's Bane), Darkness (which grants concealment so you can hide), and Devil's Sight (so you can see through your own darkness). It also gives you a 2d6 ranged touch attack. With 13 levels of Rogue mixed in, that brings the total up to 8d6 if it is not immune to precision-based damage.

It also gives you the ability to Take 10 on any UMD check. That means you can carry around a Wand of Gravebane and a Wand of Golembane and never have to worry about anything, since they errata'd the use of wands from being a standard action. It also means your UMD cheeze just got a whole lot cheezier.

Swordsage 2 is a strange dip, until you consider all it does for you. Island of Blades stance should be the one you are almost always in. It lets you flank much easier, granting that many more sneak attacks. Furthermore, it lets you pick up a feat to add Dex to damage, instead of stength. For a Strongheart Halfling, that's a pretty worthwhile investment. It also nets you Wis to AC, which is variously useful depending on your Wis score, but every little bit helps, eh?

Nightsong Infiltrator is a surprisingly fun class, which synergises well with party assistance and what you already have. Team Sneak Attack + Island of Blades = lots of extra damage when everyone jumps someone. Steady Stance negates any need for Balance of 5 ranks. Teamwork Infiltration means being able to get even the dwarven cleric in full plate past a guard post without being seen or heard. Trackless Step granted to all allies makes it harder to find the party.The real gem in this, however, is Grant Move Action. Seriously, I can't even begin to list all the ways you can abuse this.

[Chronos]

Quoth Emperor Tippy:

Taking a 1 level dip in Factotum and Able Learner is something every rogue should do.

No, that's something that no rogue should do. If Factotum is available, then you want to take at least three levels, to pick up Brains over Brawn. At that point, you're probably not actually losing any skill points at all, since Brains over Brawn means that you can afford to put your highest score into Int, instead of your second-highest. And while the factotum's "all skills as class skills" thing is nice, how often are you actually going to use a skill that isn't on the rogue's list?

Quoth Jack_Simth:

But if you work at it, yes, you can secure everything reasonably well. Get a solid belt with a lock and lots of extra holes, and attach everything to steel wire by way of Sovereign Glue. Loop the ends of the steel wire through the holes in the belt, and join those with Sovereign Glue as well. Put belt on, lock it. An arbitrary number of items are now "well secured".

Three possibilities, here: First, use Open Lock to unlock the belt, while you're at it. I'm not sure what the circumstance penalty would be for trying to unlock something attached to a person without them noticing, but you can get skill checks pretty darned high, if you put your mind to it. Or, of course, use a wand of Knock. Second, first steal the key that unlocks the lock, and avoid the need for the Open Locks check. Third, use some Universal Solvent to unglue the items you want to steal.

Quoth Tempest Fennac:

I know this isn;t quite the same thing, but I was thinking of using a Cloistered Cleric which can act as a skill monkey after Yeril brought a particular build up in a thread about Cloistered Clerics. My idea is to either pick the Trickery and Kobold Domains to get a lot of skills while using the Apprentice feat to get Move Silently and Open Lock as class skills

That works, but it seems a bit convoluted for my taste. Dipping one level of Ninja just seems cleaner. Then again, with some of the builds I've put together, I'm perhaps not the best one to complain about "convoluted".

Quoth Thurbane:

There two classes I think might sit well with a skillmonkey build - Archivist and Exemplar. Any thoughts?

Archivist seems a lot more like a cross between a wizard and a cleric, than a skillmonkey, to me. The only skills they're particularly good at are the knowledge skills, which are usually a wizard's forte. Exemplar's already in the guide, though.

Quoth Turcano:

The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.

That's optimizing a little more heavily for Sneak Attack than I'd prefer. I included Craven because it only needs a single die of Sneak Attack to be effective, but Telling Blow is really only worthwhile if you have a lot.

[kjones]

The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.

Telling Blow is, unfortunately, a bit of a trap - if you run the numbers, it's just not worth it, unless you've really optimized your crit-dealing.

Edit: Semi-ninja'ed by Chronos, but he makes a good point. This isn't about the combat rogue here.

[nargbop]

Exemplar is a good class to take a short dip in - take one level for +4 to a single skill and skill masteries in the class level+Intelligence mod. That +4 is enormously useful on, say, Spellcraft checks.
I once took a character all the way to eighth level and enjoyed the massive multiple-ability-reinforcement class ability, where CHA becomes wonderful.

[hotel_papa]

One of my characters (my wife's, actually) is a rog/swb with Daring Outlaw, Telling Blow, Improved Critical and a couple of rapiers. That being said, I agree with you completly, Kjones. Without the 15-20 crit range and multiple attacks per round, Telling Blow wouldn't be worth it. But, how sweet it is when you do invest a bit into it.

My question is, what are the prerequisites and such for Craven? I can't find it online and no one I know has Champions of Ruin.

Also, I have to second Rei_jin for the human paragon class, for all three levels. A +2 to int for a three level investment seems reasonable to me. Especially with it's other myriad flexibilities.

HP

EDIT- I think I need a new avatar. Too many unhappy-looking Samurai wandering 'bout the playground.

EDIT- No longer a pixie! It's like I kinda belong!!!

[Eldariel]

The biggest problem with Telling Blow isn't that it does nothing, it's that generally there are easier ways to activate Sneak Attack/Skirmish/etc. The only real sitiuation where I'd use Telling Blow is a long-range precision-focused sniper build casting Hunter's Mercy before each shot. Other than that, it tends to be more trouble than it's worth. Note that it doesn't double the Precision Damage, just allows you to deal it on Crit even when you normally wouldn't. That's ultimately the reason it's jank.

[Aquillion]

That's a bit problematic, since some spells are at different levels for different classes, and a UMD user can potentially be dealing with spells from any list. The organization in every section is core options in alphabetical order, followed by non-core options in alphabetical order. I probably should have all of the classes and levels listed for the spells, but that's a lot of work (especially since some classes, like Assassins, aren't usually mentioned in a spell's statblock).

For scrolls, you should almost always assume levels go by this order (taking the first one available): Wizard/Sorc, Cleric, Druid, everyone else. (Typically if a spell isn't available to one of the core full-casters, it's only available to one class anyway.)

The SRD specifically says you should assume Wiz/Sorcs above the others for arcane spells; and Cleric/Druids above the others for divine spells. This is common sense, since those are the people who scribe most scrolls. And naturally wizards would go before clerics when a spell is on both, since wizards have scribe scroll as a bonus feat all the time; clerics go before druids because clerics at least can get scribe scroll as a bonus feat with the right domain, while druids can't.

Plus, in practical terms there's many more important uses (and therefore more demand) for sorc/wiz scrolls than any other type; and chances are, a wizard in your party will have Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat and be able to scribe scrolls for you if necessary, while you're not guaranteed access to scrolls via any other means. (All right, unless you have an artificer or warlock.) You could note alternate spell levels when you happen to know them, but wizard-cleric-druid is really the most important, in that order.

And having a general sense of levels is far more useful than having no sense at all. Most rogues should stock up on all the remotely useful first-level spells, just in case, since they're so cheap; higher-level spells are rarely worth the investment unless they make a huge difference and it's something your primary caster can't handle.

Also, spells of first-fourth level are available via wands. That's a very big deal (especially for those cheap 0th and 1st level wands); dividing up spells by which are wandable and which aren't is important.

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't the Exp. penalty from taking 1 Ninja level be a problem? Also, how would you justify that build from a fluff perspective? (I'm not sure why a stealthy assassin would have the same interest in studying that a CC should have).

[Emperor Tippy]

Quoth Emperor Tippy:No, that's something that no rogue should do. If Factotum is available, then you want to take at least three levels, to pick up Brains over Brawn. At that point, you're probably not actually losing any skill points at all, since Brains over Brawn means that you can afford to put your highest score into Int, instead of your second-highest. And while the factotum's "all skills as class skills" thing is nice, how often are you actually going to use a skill that isn't on the rogue's list?

To be perfectly blunt, if Factotum is in play then you should never use anything else as your primary class for a skill monkey (in fact its debatable whether or not you should even dip into anything else). There is nothing that any other skill monkey can do that a Factotum can't do better.

[CASTLEMIKE]

My question is, what are the prerequisites and such for Craven? I can't find it online and no one I know has Champions of Ruin.

Craven

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...s.pl?Craven,CR

Nice boost to a high level PC with minimal Sneak Attack like a Rogue -1, Factotum-19 or a Monk or Monk dipper able to combine Sneak Attack with unarmed attacks.

To be perfectly blunt, if Factotum is in play then you should never use anything else as your primary class for a skill monkey (in fact its debatable whether or not you should even dip into anything else). There is nothing that any other skill monkey can do that a Factotum can't do better.

Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

Note where I said primary class. There are lots of things that can make a decent 1 level dip. Factotum 19/ Swordsage 1 gets you an IL of 10 (5th level Maneuvers and stances), which can be quite nice.

EDIT: As for sneak attack, the Factotum can easily get a fairly decent one. Grab Assassin's stance for +2d6. Use Cunning Brilliance to grab the Rogues Sneak Attack Progression for +10d6. Then throw on Cunning Strike for +1d6 per Inspiration Point spent (and you can get upwards of 40 IP if you really try).

Infact on a 1 level dip you are better off with Swordsage and Assassins Stance over Rogue. It gets you an extra 1d6 on the Sneak Attack, +1 to Initiative Checks, and 6 Maneuvers Known.

[monty]

Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

As a side note, although it's hardly anything spectacular, 2 inspiration points, an extra spell per day, and +1 OP isn't quite a dead level - certainly not to the extent of Rogue 20.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Note where I said primary class. There are lots of things that can make a decent 1 level dip. Factotum 19/ Swordsage 1 gets you an IL of 10 (5th level Maneuvers and stances), which can be quite nice.

Yes Warblade or Swordsage is nice but note I said Rogue as a dip at first level in a skill monkey thread in a leveling up game useful for the next 18 levels not just the last in a build.

As a side note, although it's hardly anything spectacular, 2 inspiration points, an extra spell per day, and +1 OP isn't quite a dead level - certainly not to the extent of Rogue 20.

Probably true if you were taking it at level -20 but supposedly half the games don't go past L10 and it was taken at first level in a leveling up game.

[hotel_papa]

If Craven doesn't allow you to be immune to fear, does that mean that a recipient of Heroes' Feast with the feat gains no benefit from it?

Also, seconding staying with Factotum for the long run.
~Anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything better than you.~

HP

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes Warblade or Swordsage is nice but note I said Rogue as a dip at first level in a skill monkey thread in a leveling up game useful for the next 18 levels not just the last in a build.

Not really. All Rogue 1 gets you if taken at first level is 8 extra skill points and a 1d6 sneak attack in exchange for 2 extra HP. From 4th level on Factotum gets a sneak attack. And at that point you can have Font of Inspiration 4 times, which means a 13d6 Sneak Attack if you want to nova an encounter.

And if you take FoI 6 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws) then you get an extra 21 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 26 IP. And once you hit 30 Int you can get 55 extra IP.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Not really. All Rogue 1 gets you if taken at first level is 8 extra skill points and a 1d6 sneak attack in exchange for 2 extra HP. From 4th level on Factotum gets a sneak attack. And at that point you can have Font of Inspiration 4 times, which means a 13d6 Sneak Attack if you want to nova an encounter.

And if you take FoI 10 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws, 4 from levels) then you get an extra 55 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 60 IP.

Not if you take the Variant Feat Rogue.

[monty]

Probably true if you were taking it at level -20 but supposedly half the games don't go past L10 and it was taken at first level in a leveling up game.

On the other hand, if you aren't going to high levels, what do you care about dead levels anyway?

[CASTLEMIKE]

On the other hand, if you aren't going to high levels, what do you care about dead levels anyway?

Perhaps I have to level up from first level instead of building him at L20 .

[Emperor Tippy]

Not if you take the Variant Feat Rogue.

1 feat isn't worth it. And the Skill Points are worth 2 Feats. So with the Variant Feat Rogue you effectively gain 3 free feats, 2 of which are already spent on Open Minded.

Compared to Swordsage 1 at level 20 it really isn't worth it. And depending on what stance and maneuvers you want that swordsage level could easily come sooner (you get 3rd level Maneuvers and Stances at level 10).

EDIT: And you can do some real nasty things if you take that SS level at 20. Bonus Feats is a Fighter class feature that is a valid target for Cunning Brilliance and it nets you 10 Fighter Bonus Feats. Martial Study is a Fighter Bonus Feat, so you can effectively grab any maneuvers that you want for a specific battle, use Adaptive Style to prepare the ones you want as a full round action, and then use Cunning Surge twice to take 2 Standard Actions. It costs you 10 IP but it effectively let's you grab any 4 Maneuvers (from any disciplines), move within range of your target, and then use both a boost and a strike (a boost and 3 strikes if you want to spend the IP). The extra 6 Fighter Bonus Feats can be used to meet prerequisites for higher level maneuvers.

[CASTLEMIKE]

1 feat isn't worth it. And the Skill Points are worth 2 Feats. So with the Variant Feat Rogue you effectively gain 3 free feats, 2 of which are already spent on Open Minded.

Compared to Swordsage 1 at level 20 it really isn't worth it. And depending on what stance and maneuvers you want that swordsage level could easily come sooner (you get 3rd level Maneuvers and Stances at level 10).

I disagree it would be better to go Factotum -1, Swordsage or Warblade -1 if you can use the double flaw variant for extra Fonts of Inspiration feats which is not a given. Open-minded is only good at first level IMO if you gain the first level fours times multiplier for the skill points which is rarely granted.

Regarding your point about losing 2 HP you could always spend that bonus feat on Toughness and net +1 HP with the feat. (Not that I recommend it since there are a lot of good feats in the game).

[Emperor Tippy]

I disagree it would be better to go Factotum -1, Swordsage or Warblade -1 if you can use the double flaw variant for extra Fonts of Inspiration feats which is not a given. Open-minded is only good at first level IMO if you gain the first level fours times multiplier for the skill points which is rarely granted.

You misunderstand me. What the Rogue gets you over the Factotum is 8 skill points and a feat (with the Variant rogue). Open Minded taken twice gets you 10 skill points. So going Rogue 1/Factotum 19 vs. Factotum 19/ X 1 is worth slightly less than 3 feats and costs you 2 HP.

Even without Flaws you have more than enough feats for your FoI needs.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You misunderstand me. What the Rogue gets you over the Factotum is 8 skill points and a feat (with the Variant rogue). Open Minded taken twice gets you 10 skill points. So going Rogue 1/Factotum 19 vs. Factotum 19/ X 1 is worth slightly less than 3 feats and costs you 2 HP.

Even without Flaws you have more than enough feats for your FoI needs.

Maybe but the game has power curves based on race and class along with choice opportunity cost. The optimal L-20 build isn't always the best one to actually play through in a game. It doesn't matter what level the Factotum assigns those Open Minded feats in a L20 build but it does if you have to level up through those choices.

If the extra feat was only spent on Toughness it nets the PC +1 HP at first level.

PHBII retraining and rebuilding rules are nice.

Changeling Rogue - 1 would get +16 skill points more at first level than a Factotum - 1 which is significant for a skill monkey at low levels plus several fast charisma checks and taking 10 on numerous charisma checks at low levels.

IMO at L8 converting to Factotum - 8 when the PC should have enough resources to handle the loss of those initial skill points for the extra action.

Possibly going Chameleon -1 for a little spellcasting and some skill bonuses while a Martial dip into Swordsage or Warblade -1 at L9 (IL-5 third level manuevers) would provide some nice benefits which can be rebuilt out of by L19 for Factotum - 19.

At L-20 personal choice of PC either Factotum - 20 or Factotum - 19, X-1

[Aquillion]

And if you take FoI 6 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws) then you get an extra 21 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 26 IP. And once you hit 30 Int you can get 55 extra IP.

Honestly, if you're going to use Chaos Shuffle, you might as well just turn into Pun-Pun and grant yourself any power you want. Even if its place on the curve isn't quite as high, Chaos Shuffle is pretty much beyond the pale for any actual use.

I mean, if we're talking TO, sure, but I assume this guide is for builds you might use in an actual game.

[Emperor Tippy]

Maybe but the game has power curves based on race and class. The optimal L-20 build isn't always the best one to actually play through in a game. It doesn't matter what level the Factotum assigns those Open Minded feats in a L20 build but it does if you have to level up through those choices.

If the extra feat was only spent on Toughness it nets the PC +1 HP at first level.

PHBII retraining and rebuilding rules are nice.

Changeling Rogue - 1 would get +16 skill points more at first level than a Factotum - 1 which is significant for a skill monkey at low levels plus several fast charisma checks and taking 10 on numerous charisma checks at low levels.

IMO at L8 converting to Factotum - 8 when the PC should have enough resources to handle the loss of those initial skill points for the extra action.

Possibly going Chameleon -1 for a little spellcasting and some skill bonuses while a Martial dip into Swordsage or Warblade -1 at L9 would provide some nice benefits which can be rebuilt out of by L19 for Factotum - 19.

The thing is that a straight Factotum is more playable and optimal than pretty much any rogue build and pretty much any level. There is no question at all about playability in either of the builds we are discussing, even if you start at level 1.

Skill points are nice but a Factotum 1 with 20 int (18+2 from grey elf) can max 11 skills. And with Cunning Knowledge and Brains Over Brawn you really don't have to max most skills. Put one point in every skill so you can use Cunning Knowledge when you really need to make a check and then you are pretty much set.

Balance, for example, offers no benefit once you can make a DC 37 check. It's a dex check which means that you get Int to it in addition to Dex. A Dex of 24, and an Int of 30 is +17, meaning you need another 19 points. A masterwork tool, a luckstone, and 5 ranks in tumble and you need 14 ranks. So you can have Balance maxed at level 11 (and thats moving at full speed across a 2 inch wide, severely slippery, severely obstructed, sloped, terrain feature).

Climb maxes at 35 (pre epic) which means 34 ranks. For 600 GP you can get it based off of dex, meaning it can be maxed at level 9.

Craft needs no points as you make 1 check per day (meaning Cunning Knowledge on every check) and it's Int based.

Diplomacy depends on the house rules in play.

Disable Device maxes at 35 (25 if you just want to disable a trap and not bypass it).

Open Lock maxes at 42 and is Dex based, meaning that you want to be able to hit that DC naked for absolute safety. But you can take 20 so 22 ranks is enough. Which you can easily get with 30 Int, 24 Dex, and 5 ranks.

Ride maxes at 20 and is Dex based.

Swim maxes at 20 as well and is Str based.


There are lots of skills that you don't have to max.