Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Zorg]

It depends on the table layout - if you're playing a long table the Banesword will rock, firing a 10" template up to 240", and it's a barrage weapon so you can sit in cover. A short table lends itself to the Stormsword (10" Str10 ignoring cover) or Banehammer (the earthquake effect is good for slowing down Orks).

The Baneblade and Shadowsword varients are really best at killing infantry and light armour, not titan killing (the Shadowsword itself is fairly mediocre really). Use things like Deep Striking melta Stormtroopers, flank marching melta vets (or in a Vendetta), lascannon weapon teams - that sort of thing.

Other things to look at are using formations to get extra barrages, more powerful attacks and so on.


More thoughts on the Shadowsword Varients.


Agianst Orks in Apoc, Stompas and Gargants (depending on what rules they're using) aren't too scary by themselves, but they act as force multipliers.
Taking the Stompa - it makes nearby Orks fearless, can carry Boyz, is destructive in HtH, and has lots of anti-infantry dakka. With its BS of 2 it's pretty naff against armour, even with a Deff Kannon. They can become much deadlier using the Kustom Stompa rules from WD351 with belly gunz, da Gaze of Mork and grot repair krews.
A standard Stompa's biggest weakness is its lack of shields. Big Meks have them, but vanilla don't. They can be screened by KFFs, but clever use of cover ignoring weapons (such as StrD or a Stormsword) can get around that. They are also slow for thier size, and drive damaged results render them next to useless.
Thunderfire cannons using groundburst fire can ruin a Stompa's day. Another thing to do is to trap them with their own army - use your hordes of guys, make them fearless (Special Chars, formations, =I=), blob them up into a giant unit, and assault the frontline of Orks. They'll take a while to chew through your guys (hopefully), and the Stompaz will get caught behind the now immobile wave of boyz.

As you are playing guard I'd try to get the others to kill the superheavies, an dfocus on killing the lighter vehicles and infantry. Black Templar assault marines can get meltabombs on every guy in the unit - very dangerous for the AV13 Stompa.

More thoughts on killing Titans.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

The points about superheavies have already been covered so I'll give some other advice instead.

1. Artillary, lot's and lot's of it! This is the time for basilisks en masse. I use six my self and I'm thinking of getting more.

2. Manpower, have you read about the Imperial shield company formation? If not, check it out. It's awsome.

3. Tank companys. Same as artillary. Go nuts!

Apocalypce is as have already been said by Incomp the time for crazies.

Just have fun!

[Trixie]

(the Shadowsword itself is fairly mediocre really)

You give that... unwarranted statement, yet, in your blog, you give it 8/10, by far the highest rating. Excuse me?

Use things like Deep Striking melta Stormtroopers

I can't help but notice the OP has no unit capable of doing so, and buying them will cost more than that superheavy.

A standard Stompa's biggest weakness is its lack of shields. Big Meks have them, but vanilla don't. They can be screened by KFFs, but clever use of cover ignoring weapons (such as StrD or a Stormsword) can get around that.

Which is why I pointed at them.

As you are playing guard I'd try to get the others to kill the superheavies, an dfocus on killing the lighter vehicles and infantry. Black Templar assault marines can get meltabombs on every guy in the unit - very dangerous for the AV13 Stompa.

For all this theoretical talk about deepstriking and melting, I can't help but wonder why exactly someone with 10.000 points of orks would let you anywhere near melta range, much less leave enough space for deepstriking within feet(s) of his heavies. Orks can stop that at 2.000 points, much less at 10.000. Bubblewrap, anyone?

Shadowsword/Stormblade rule for one more reason. Orks do not have long range AT. These two vehicles have 100+ inches of range. Meaning, as long as you keep it safe from outflanking, they might as well be on Mars as far the enemy AT is concerned. And, since Str D can remove one superheavy per turn... either your enemy will have to throw big amount of resources at it to take care of them, or hopefully will become subconsciously frustrated. Either way, this will give your side a big advantage and a chance to shine

Especially if you start discussing with SM players if you should paint stompa kill marks after the match. Politely, though.

[Zorg]

You give that... unwarranted statement, yet, in your blog, you give it 8/10, by far the highest rating. Excuse me?

I also gave it a 4/10.
It's good at what it does (killing superheavies at extreme range), but for anything else, even killing regular armour, it isn't so hot. Agasint hordes it's suparsed by the other varients. It also needs to work holistically with the whole army, as if it is your only extreme range attack (I'm including DSing, orbital strikes and such here) it will knock off a Void a turn against shielded targets, and they'll kill it before it does much else. Up close agianst Orks, I'm not so sure about it.

To maximise its killing power with its main gun (which is one shot and uses a comparatively small blast) you need to remove the lascannons, which greatly help with things like taking down shields and doing extra damage (StrD isn't an insta-kill, even against regular vehicles).
For only 300pts more you could get a Warhound with two Turbo-Laser Destructors. So for those extra points you gain two voids and three shots.


To be fair I should have said "it's mediocre against Orks". At range the Banesword works well (10" Str 10 ord barrage) and up close the Storsword or Banehammer. The Stormblade (the one with the Plasma Blastgun) wouldn't be too bad either, but it's Forge Word or kitbash only. It can put down two 7" templates of plasma death in on shot and is good fun.

Just don't use the Stormlord, it's a piece of junk.

I can't help but notice the OP has no unit capable of doing so, and buying them will cost more than that superheavy.

Well, he said he has meltas, and could make dudes with meltas, so...

Which is why I pointed at them.

And I'm agreeing with you

For all this theoretical talk about deepstriking and melting, I can't help but wonder why exactly someone with 10.000 points of orks would let you anywhere near melta range, much less leave enough space for deepstriking within feet(s) of his heavies. Orks can stop that at 2.000 points, much less at 10.000. Bubblewrap, anyone?

Drop a barrage of Apoc level artillery on his dudes - just made you a hole right there

Also him keeping guys close to the stompas means they'll get caught up in any stray atrillery or apocalyptic explosions. Additionally it means they're not rushign your lines in vehicles so you can shoot them more.
But really, as part of a team he needs to work with them to figure it out. The Marines are much better cut out for Stompa killing by default (Drop Pods work great deep striking in dangerous places), and the IG for killing da ordez ov boyz.

Shadowsword/Stormblade rule for one more reason. Orks do not have long range AT. These two vehicles have 100+ inches of range. Meaning, as long as you keep it safe from outflanking, they might as well be on Mars as far the enemy AT is concerned. And, since Str D can remove one superheavy per turn... either your enemy will have to throw big amount of resources at it to take care of them, or hopefully will become subconsciously frustrated. Either way, this will give your side a big advantage and a chance to shine

Especially if you start discussing with SM players if you should paint stompa kill marks after the match. Politely, though.

Like I said, it depends on the board - the seperation in Apoc is still only around two feet by the rules - if it's a series of 6x4's stuck end on end, with armies along the long edge (like this), the Orks will be very very close so a Shadowsword will lose its biggest advantage there. If not, then the Orks will have a hard time surviving the firestorm.

StrD is good, but it isn't an instant kill by any means. Sure I've killed superheavies in one shot with my Reaver's Lasblaster (it shoots three StrD shots a go), but I've also failed to damage a buch of clustered up Land Raiders in any meaningful way despite scoring a total of eight hits across them.
Also in Apoc if they take Flank March (the most broken thing in the 40k), they can come on from behind you, so yeah, nowhere to hide from assault.

[Falgorn]

Thanks for all the advice about the Tau, guys. From what you all said, I gathered that most Tau troops are bad, Kroot are just less-bad than Fire Warriors. I'll take that into consideration.
Also, whoever posted it, I love the idea of Kroot Renegades. I wish I had that skill.

[Renegade Paladin]

I can't help but notice the OP has no unit capable of doing so, and buying them will cost more than that superheavy

I have Kasrkin stormtroopers, which have the deep striking angle covered, but need to get meltas onto them. I'm not that confident in my ability to convert metal models.

[Trixie]

I have Kasrkin stormtroopers, which have the deep striking angle covered, but need to get meltas onto them. I'm not that confident in my ability to convert metal models.

Um... so no veterans jumping from V-ships? Stormies are... not that good, I'm afraid, certainly not reliable as AT.

Thanks for all the advice about the Tau, guys. From what you all said, I gathered that most Tau troops are bad, Kroot are just less-bad than Fire Warriors. I'll take that into consideration.
Also, whoever posted it, I love the idea of Kroot Renegades. I wish I had that skill.

That was me, I believe. And yes, the general rule of thumb is, if Tau unit doesn't have S10 guns, cheap markerlights or isn't mecha carrying more guns than limbs it probably isn't that good

I also gave it a 4/10.

But, we already know there are multiple enemy superheavies and none on the allied side, so it is well within that 9/10 bracket

Agasint hordes it's suparsed by the other varients.

Technically, 5x Heavy Bolter works better than main guns of some of these variants

The Stormblade (the one with the Plasma Blastgun) wouldn't be too bad either, but it's Forge Word or kitbash only.

Hmmm, to me, it seems all you need is to redo one of the less useful guns a bit. There are two almost identical, one can be sacrificed, I guess.

Drop a barrage of Apoc level artillery on his dudes - just made you a hole right there

From what I have seen on your blog, apocalypse barrage is only found on heaviest Titans, namely that carapace missile launcher. Isn't that true?

Additionally it means they're not rushign your lines in vehicles so you can shoot them more.

Ech, at 10.000 I'd expect orks finding 2-3 mobs of 30 boys spare to do that beside charging the rest forward

The Marines are much better cut out for Stompa killing by default (Drop Pods work great deep striking in dangerous places), and the IG for killing da ordez ov boyz.

Agreead, but Drop Pods are big, and rather easy to stop, and that particular breed of SM he mentioned (Templars) is better suited to horde clearing.

So my suggestion would still be to devote superheavies to stompa-hunt, letting the rest worry about boyz

Like I said, it depends on the board - the seperation in Apoc is still only around two feet by the rules - if it's a series of 6x4's stuck end on end, with armies along the long edge (like this), the Orks will be very very close so a Shadowsword will lose its biggest advantage there. If not, then the Orks will have a hard time surviving the firestorm.

That's... very strange arrangement, to say the least

If I were setting this up, I'd reduce the no man's land to zero, but play along the short edge. This setup reduces long-range weapons (anything over 36") usefulness making them overpriced, plus gives melee side a big advantage.

But then, the only apocalypse game I saw was on 2x2 tables, joined by plastic bridge, with both sides deploying on their own 2 tables. The carnage was unbelievable, despite attackers being given a few bonuses

Also in Apoc if they take Flank March (the most broken thing in the 40k), they can come on from behind you, so yeah, nowhere to hide from assault.

Yeah. But, IG can do bubblewrap, too

Also, nitpick! There are 6 named marines, not 3, in TEF! And the ending is also a bit Deus-Ex! But yeah, it is good

[Renegade Paladin]

From what I have seen on your blog, apocalypse barrage is only found on heaviest Titans, namely that carapace missile launcher. Isn't that true?

No. Flyers making a bombing run always use the apocalypse barrage template.

[Arcanoi]

Agreead, but Drop Pods are big, and rather easy to stop, and that particular breed of SM he mentioned (Templars) is better suited to horde clearing.

Templars aren't cost efficient against Orks unless they always have the charge. Once you break the first unit the rest will charge you.

So my suggestion would still be to devote superheavies to stompa-hunt, letting the rest worry about boyz

The problem with this is that, ultimately, Melta-Delivery-Systems are more efficient if you need to kill that Superheavy now.

That's... very strange arrangement, to say the least

It's how almost every apocalypse game that I've ever seen is set up.

If I were setting this up, I'd reduce the no man's land to zero, but play along the short edge. This setup reduces long-range weapons (anything over 36") usefulness making them overpriced, plus gives melee side a big advantage.

Well, Trixie, we all know a lot of things would be different if you were GW, () but your setup makes guns with anything over 60" range extremely overpowered, so...

But then, the only apocalypse game I saw was on 2x2 tables, joined by plastic bridge, with both sides deploying on their own 2 tables. The carnage was unbelievable, despite attackers being given a few bonuses

I find the best setup for Apocalypse games is square tables. Unfortunately, this gets difficult when you can't reach models at the center of the table if they're too large.

[Renegade Paladin]

If GW never anticipated large and deep tables and setup areas, why give artillery ranges measured in up to twenty feet? Especially in Apocalypse, with flying transports and special deep strike formations all over the place, I don't think it would be that crippling to have a deep table/floor area.

Of course, I play Guard, so my viewpoint may be a little skewed. Speaking of flying transports, the rules for them say that only jump infantry may disembark from them; do Valkyries get an exception with the grav-chute rule? It was said upthread that they count as flyers in Apocalypse, but I can't seem to find the rules for this.

[hamishspence]

The rules are for a Valkyrie/Vendetta formation in White Dwarf- counts as flyers in Apocalypse.

Also- Imperial Armour 8 has an Elysian Drop Trooper Army- which can take Valkyries & Vendettas- which gain the flyer rule in Apocalypse games.

So- there is some precedent.

[Winterwind]

Thanks for all the advice about the Tau, guys. From what you all said, I gathered that most Tau troops are bad, Kroot are just less-bad than Fire Warriors. I'll take that into consideration.

Well, let me put it this way: I'm pretty sure that as soon as Cheesegear, the local WH40k guru, is back from whereever he is right now, he will have something very, very, very different to say on that. Especially considering he already wrote something very different on that:

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

And I am far more inclined to agree with that. The firepower of Fire Warriors is terrifying. And the frequently brought up argument that Dark Eldar are the new flavour of the month and are nasty to Tau completely ignores that, on the other hand, Tau are pretty damn nasty to Dark Eldar, too (considering the standard weaponry on their troops has enough range and strength to hit and penetrate Dark Eldar vehicles.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

The rules are for a Valkyrie/Vendetta formation in White Dwarf- counts as flyers in Apocalypse.

Also- Imperial Armour 8 has an Elysian Drop Trooper Army- which can take Valkyries & Vendettas- which gain the flyer rule in Apocalypse games.

So- there is some precedent.

Valkyries, Vendettas and vultures counts as both flyers and fast skimmers in Apocalypse. They can change between the different modes.

Personaly I would let units with deep strike jump out of Valkyrier/Vendettas in flyer mode. Just let it count as Grav chute insertion.

[Tome]

Well, let me put it this way: I'm pretty sure that as soon as Cheesegear, the local WH40k guru, is back from whereever he is right now, he will have something very, very, very different to say on that. Especially considering he already wrote something very different on that:

He also wrote this.

I haven't played against or even seen competitive Tau in a long, long time (since pretty much before I wrote that article, which is why I wrote it, because nobody else was playing it so I tried to figure out why)... So, I'm not quite up to speed on how 'The Veteran' Tau players are using them.

The cheesy one admits that he hasn't really seen much Tau play recently and, as nice a guy as he is, his word isn't absolute. Particularly with folks who actually play the army in question on a regular basis.

And I am far more inclined to agree with that. The firepower of Fire Warriors is terrifying. And the frequently brought up argument that Dark Eldar are the new flavour of the month and are nasty to Tau completely ignores that, on the other hand, Tau are pretty damn nasty to Dark Eldar, too (considering the standard weaponry on their troops has enough range and strength to hit and penetrate Dark Eldar vehicles.

Fire Warrior firepower isn't terrifying. Crunching the numbers, Fire Warriors are about as good in a firefight as a Squad of Tactical Marines, point for point. (9 shots from Fire Warriors to kill a Tactical Marine, 6 Shots from Tactical Marines to kill a Fire Warrior. Fire Warriors are 10 Pts, Tactical Marines are roughly 15 Pts, giving a 1.5 ratio, which matches the killing power.) Except that the Tactical Marines can stomp them in Assault, despite being just as good in the Shooting Phase. And have special weapons. The only notable thing about Fire Warrior shooting, when you actually use them, is that they have a 30" range. Which is actually kind of nice. Except that Kroot are still substantially cheaper, almost as good stat-wise and still have a 24" range.

Hopefully Fire Warriors either become cheaper or get BS 4 in the 5th Edition Codex, whenever that comes out. It's not like there aren't already BS 4 Fire Warriors (Ethereal Honour Guards). Of course, those Honour Guards are a bit of an anomaly, really. The only other thing in the entire Codex that has BS 4 or better is the Commander. Kinda makes you wonder where they're getting so many Shas'Els from.

Dark Eldar aren't as scary for Tau as most people seem to think. Every army, even IG, will stomp Tau in Assault. Getting massacred in Assault is something Tau are used to. Thus, Tau tactics on the tabletop revolve almost entirely around staying out of Assault. The ease with which Dark Eldar can get into Assault is mostly balanced out for Tau by how fragile they are.

[Erloas]

I think this is definitely one of those times where "the internet" doesn't really match 99% of people's local competition. The fire warriors vs kroot thing I think shows that well, in some areas some people would never use one and in other areas some people would never use the other.

Also even with DE being the newest army I bet most local groups still probably only have 1 DE player, maybe 1-2 others with very small forces, and all of those players also still have the 2-6 other armies that they own. I bet you're average player still sees more regular SM armies then they do DE and probably the majority of the BA, SW and other loyalist marine armies are made up of 80% regular marines with 1-2 of the specialized units from the army thrown in to make it BA or SW instead of normal SMs.

And with that comes the fact that the average army Tau are facing now actually isn't terribly different from what it was 2-3 years ago. I also wonder how everyone is able to turn to Mecha and assault lists, because as soon as everyone is running assault lists they stop being nearly as effective because two assault units fighting will end up being too close to be decisive most of the time. So for those armies to work well (and even need all of the speed and DS ability that they have since its not of much use when your enemy is also running at you full speed) they have to still be facing a number of more "traditional" armies that aren't so heavily assault dedicated.

And even if you are facing lots of DE as Tau... well I would be surprised if your average 1000 points worth of Tau didn't have the firepower to drop 4-5 open topped AV10 vehicles every turn, even with the flat-out-skimmer cover saves. I would be surprised if my Eldar army couldn't shoot down 3-4 a turn.

[Incomp]

Fire Warrior firepower isn't terrifying. Crunching the numbers, Fire Warriors are about as good in a firefight as a Squad of Tactical Marines, point for point. (9 shots from Fire Warriors to kill a Tactical Marine, 6 Shots from Tactical Marines to kill a Fire Warrior. Fire Warriors are 10 Pts, Tactical Marines are roughly 15 Pts, giving a 1.5 ratio, which matches the killing power.) Except that the Tactical Marines can stomp them in Assault, despite being just as good in the Shooting Phase. And have special weapons. The only notable thing about Fire Warrior shooting, when you actually use them, is that they have a 30" range. Which is actually kind of nice. Except that Kroot are still substantially cheaper, almost as good stat-wise and still have a 24" range.

I don't want to get into a math-hammer argument, because they're stupid and pointless, but I have to point out that 40k is not played in a vacuum. A friend of mine has 14 markerlights in his 2000 point Tau army, and almost all the shooting comes in at BS4 if not better. Support units are there for a reason.

Then again, this opens up the question of the space marine player's own support, and soon, if we want to be accurate, we're having to simulate an entire army's shooting. That's why I don't want to get into this argument; math-hammer doesn't really work.

[Falgorn]

Well, let me put it this way: I'm pretty sure that as soon as Cheesegear, the local WH40k guru, is back from whereever he is right now, he will have something very, very, very different to say on that. Especially considering he already wrote something very different on that:
And I am far more inclined to agree with that. The firepower of Fire Warriors is terrifying. And the frequently brought up argument that Dark Eldar are the new flavour of the month and are nasty to Tau completely ignores that, on the other hand, Tau are pretty damn nasty to Dark Eldar, too (considering the standard weaponry on their troops has enough range and strength to hit and penetrate Dark Eldar vehicles.

Yeah, but like Tome mentioned, he doesn't play the Tau. Out of the disscussion, I saw one (correct me if I'm wrong) person who said they played the Tau, and they reccomended Kroot.

Of course, it may also be something that is opinion based. Whichever fits more to your tactic style. I've seen good arguements on both sides, but I think I could identify more with the Kroot army, because they're just a bit better in close range.

[Trixie]

Well, Trixie, we all know a lot of things would be different if you were GW, () but your setup makes guns with anything over 60" range extremely overpowered, so...

Overpowered?

Then why they have the range in the first place? You know, my solution to this wouldn't be letting orks magically teleport near the force out-ranging them. I'd give them an asset, maybe more points - but yes, they'd need to run that distance to close to the enemy. That's what they do in the fluff, after all, and that's why the Guard has any chance in combat with them.

I'm not sure if I'd give them much, though, as they are already very cheap and resilient.

Fire Warrior firepower isn't terrifying. Crunching the numbers, Fire Warriors are about as good in a firefight as a Squad of Tactical Marines, point for point. (9 shots from Fire Warriors to kill a Tactical Marine, 6 Shots from Tactical Marines to kill a Fire Warrior. Fire Warriors are 10 Pts, Tactical Marines are roughly 15 Pts, giving a 1.5 ratio, which matches the killing power.)

Precisely. Tau FW are as good unit as Tacticals when you look at shooting only. But! Tacticals are considered slightly overpriced, despite getting (at the same point cost/effectiveness as Tau!): And they shall know no Fear, Combat Tactics, meltaguns, power weapons/fists, BS4, grenades, CC that doesn't suck (that much), 3+ save, actually good transports, LD9 and a few other things.

If slightly overpriced unit beats your own in virtually all categories, well...

Dark Eldar aren't as scary for Tau as most people seem to think. Every army, even IG, will stomp Tau in Assault. Getting massacred in Assault is something Tau are used to. Thus, Tau tactics on the tabletop revolve almost entirely around staying out of Assault. The ease with which Dark Eldar can get into Assault is mostly balanced out for Tau by how fragile they are.

Sadly, the amount of Feel No Pain they have now + the ability to kill any Tau tank on table in the first round changed the game drastically. Once you get to what Haemonculus can do with his troops, it's clear no amount of shooting from FW will stop them. From 'Suits, maybe. FW, nope. Eldar will reach FW and ruin their day.

I don't want to get into a math-hammer argument, because they're stupid and pointless, but I have to point out that 40k is not played in a vacuum. A friend of mine has 14 markerlights in his 2000 point Tau army, and almost all the shooting comes in at BS4 if not better. Support units are there for a reason.

As stated in my spoiler above, throwing hundreds of points to "support" FW loses games. What is better - 10x S5 shots, all with save, or 8x S6-7 shots, killing even Marines on 2+, IDing all the others, half with no armor save at all? Fireknife suits are popular for a reason.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Sadly, the amount of Feel No Pain they have now

Gives them a 4+ save. I've had my dark eldar get shot at by fire warriors. Even with Feel No Pain I lost 6 out of 8 wyches.

Wracks I don't know about.

Tau's low toughness also makes having poisoned ranged weapons weaker.

the ability to kill any Tau tank on table in the first round changed the game drastically.

Which is why you take 9 broadsides instead.

Not that dark eldar actually have any better anti-tank than any other army. They can mass anti-tank, but so can space marines. Dark Eldar have meltas now, but they're so so.

You can deep strike tons of trueborn and scourges, but that's not turn 1.

Even 6 raiders full of troops aren't going to reliably kill that many tanks with their dark lances.

[Arcanoi]

Overpowered?

Yes. Anything with less than a 36" threat range will never accomplish anything, ever, unless it deepstrikes/outflanks/infiltrates. Players will deploy their stuff 6' away from the opponent and just shoot at the opponent with S10/D Ordnance or Titan Guns.

Then why they have the range in the first place?

I don't know. Probably seemed like a good idea at the time. It's also useful to be able to shoot that Warhound at 10' away from you down the table.

You know, my solution to this wouldn't be letting orks magically teleport near the force out-ranging them.

No, but it would hamstring them and then punch them in the face.

I'd give them an asset, maybe more points - but yes, they'd need to run that distance to close to the enemy. That's what they do in the fluff, after all, and that's why the Guard has any chance in combat with them.

Trying to match the fluff to the tabletop will not work. Fluff operates on Rule Of Cool, and trying to base a PVP game on Rule Of Cool does not work.

I'm not sure if I'd give them much, though, as they are already very cheap and resilient.

Until your opponent can put 50 S6+ blasts per turn down. Then he mows down your army faster than you can advance, even if he's not killing all of it.

[Zorg]

Um... so no veterans jumping from V-ships? Stormies are... not that good, I'm afraid, certainly not reliable as AT.

They're able to re-roll their deep strike, and five with two meltas are reasonably killy. Also anything diverted to killing them is not killing your other stuff.
I had some Stormies DS near me in an Apocastrike game, and it could have gone badly, but luckily Igneus Angelus exploded and took them out

But, we already know there are multiple enemy superheavies and none on the allied side, so it is well within that 9/10 bracket

I said 8/10 at the max

Technically, 5x Heavy Bolter works better than main guns of some of these variants

Also true, but the Stormlord is garbage.

Hmmm, to me, it seems all you need is to redo one of the less useful guns a bit. There are two almost identical, one can be sacrificed, I guess.

Also the PBG can be bought seperately from the Frog Wurld.

From what I have seen on your blog, apocalypse barrage is only found on heaviest Titans, namely that carapace missile launcher. Isn't that true?

Barrages using the Apoc template are not common, but I was more meaning big, ridiculous barrages only found in Apoc games - Vindicator Linbreaker squadrons, the Deathstrike formation, barrage assets, ten bassilisks etc.


Agreead, but Drop Pods are big, and rather easy to stop, and that particular breed of SM he mentioned (Templars) is better suited to horde clearing.

So my suggestion would still be to devote superheavies to stompa-hunt, letting the rest worry about boyz

That's... very strange arrangement, to say the least

If I were setting this up, I'd reduce the no man's land to zero, but play along the short edge. This setup reduces long-range weapons (anything over 36") usefulness making them overpriced, plus gives melee side a big advantage.

But then, the only apocalypse game I saw was on 2x2 tables, joined by plastic bridge, with both sides deploying on their own 2 tables. The carnage was unbelievable, despite attackers being given a few bonuses

Every game I've played bar two has used that arrangement. The others have been zig-zag or in an 'I-I' arrangement. The problem is the length of the player's arms and fitting everything in. Going longways either means you can't reach the middle of the board, or everyone is crammed into a 4-5' wide deployment zone.

Playing on the floor is the best option, but you need to trust everyone.

Well, Trixie, we all know a lot of things would be different if you were GW, () but your setup makes guns with anything over 60" range extremely overpowered, so...

Overpowered?

Then why they have the range in the first place? You know, my solution to this wouldn't be letting orks magically teleport near the force out-ranging them. I'd give them an asset, maybe more points - but yes, they'd need to run that distance to close to the enemy. That's what they do in the fluff, after all, and that's why the Guard has any chance in combat with them.

I'm not sure if I'd give them much, though, as they are already very cheap and resilient.

It is, unfortunately, a mathematical thing as to why they become overpowered. For example, say you have a 12 foot long playing field - Orks on one side, Imperial on the other. Per Apoc rules there is a 1ft no-man's land in the middle. The Orks deploy up on the line, the Imperials way back. This would give around 4.5-6ft of seperation (60" or so).

The longest range of any Ork weapon is the Stompa mounted Deff Arsenal at 120", followed by the Grot guided missiles, Belly Kannon, Skullhamma Kannon and Deth Kannon at 72".
However, these are all either mounted on Stompas or wagons, which are all large targets. Deploying them far forward to get range on the Imperials means your Boyz are stuck behind them, and if the vehicles become wrecks they are huge obstacles to move around.
If the boyz are in front, the weapons are further back.

As for the boyz, they're either moving 18" in a Trukk, or 7-12" on foot. That means they'll take 4-6 turns at best on foot to reach the enemy, assuming they're moving in a straight line and not having to go around terrain. In a truck it's still 3 turns at best, and Trukks die to Imperial fire like nothing else.

Remember that picture I linked before? The Orks were allowed to move forward to be within 12" of my titan (roughly where the templates are sitting). I still tabled the entire force save half a dozen Nobz in a building, and was only using two of my Reaver's guns (I used the lasblaster to kill the Stompa and Skullhamma). Orkish resilience means little when they're sucking the business end of a Melta Cannon: Str10, AP1, 10" melta blast.

If they'd been at any greater range the murdering of them would have been a much more leisurely affair. Guard can beat Orks in even points with a 12" seperation in a normal game, adding Apoc gives the Imperials bigger, longer ranged guns that are hard to stop; while the Orks get nothing really of the same scale of killyness or survivability at a range greater than normal.

The long ranges is there for a couple of reasons I can think of:
- Having a titan gun/ICBM with a 72" range would be idiotic.
- Most Apoc battles I've seen are Imperial vs Imperial(chaos)/Eldar as they have the shiniest toys, so they're evenly matched.
- People playing 'floor wars' can set up a long way away and pummel each other's big units at vast ranges and mow down swathes of infanty with impunity. It's rather fun!
I've been meaning to write down my ideas for making long range games more viable for 'normal' units, might do it over the weekend.

[Tome]

I don't want to get into a math-hammer argument, because they're stupid and pointless, but I have to point out that 40k is not played in a vacuum. A friend of mine has 14 markerlights in his 2000 point Tau army, and almost all the shooting comes in at BS4 if not better. Support units are there for a reason.

I find the notion that 14 Markerlights would be enough for a 2000 point army ridiculous. 14 Markerlights at BS 3 is not going to rack up enough hits to boost the entire force, unless it's got a rather low model count.

Trying to fit in enough Markerlights to boost your entire army simply isn't going to happen unless you take a lot of Marker Drones, and those are expensive. So you're going to have decide what needs the boost more. Generally, that ends up being Broadsides and occasionally Crisis Suits for me.

[sircarp]

Doing the math for 12 FWs shooting at marines:

BS3: Hit on 4+, wound on 3+, save on 3+. Kills a marine, maybe 2 (1.33 unsaved wounds)
BS4: Hit on 3+, all other things the same. 1.77 unsaved wounds, so it kills a marine, and has a good shot at getting 2.
BS5: Hit on 2+, all other things the same. 2.22 unsaved wounds, kills two and if you're lucky 3

Shooting at a rhino:

Glances on 6's, so with 12 shots you should get a glance at BS3, 1.33 glances at BS 4 and 1.66 at BS 5. Because you glance you shake half the time (roll 1,2 or 3), stun 1/3, destroy a weapon 1/3 and immobilize 1/3.

Against AV 10 you have better odds, as you do something 1/3 of the time you hit. But it still isn't anything to write home about.

You can double all of the final numbers for rapid fire for the FW. For the Crisis analysis below just double the number for the plasma rifle.


Let's compare this to 2 fireknife suits as it's about the same cost (120 to 124):

At BS3: You hit with 4+ firing 4 missiles and 2 plasma shots; this gives us 2 missile hits and a plasma hit, wounding on 2+ gives us 1.66 missile wounds and .83 plasma wounds. Shooting at marines gives us 1.38 unsaved wounds.
at BS4: You hit on 3+, giving 2.66 missile and 1.33 plasma hits. After rolling to wound you have 2.22 missile wounds and 1.11 plasma wounds. Saving throws give you 1.85 unsaved wounds
at BS5: Hit on 2+, giving 3.33 missile hits and 1.66 plasma hits; 2.77 missile wounds 1.38 plasma wounds; saves give you a total of 2.31 unsaved wounds.

So better performance on marines in the open from the suits, but the real advantage is flexibility. Your suits have a chance to open up rhinos because of the higher strength fire; at BS 3 you're plasma glances on a 5 and pens on a 6, missiles glance on 4 and pen on 5+, so in a round of shooting you're going to do something to it, even better, your missiles have a 36" range so you can do it at a distance.

Both of these ignore cover, if you wanted to assume 4+ cover you can halve the number of wounds from the plasma and halve results against vehicles. This also ignores the cost of a transport for your FWs, which is going to bring the unit up over 200 points.


The point I'm trying to make isn't that your elite slot is better at killing stuff than your troops are; what I'm saying is that there is an opportunity cost for taking things, you can improve the capability of a unit that does one thing (kill infantry) or improve the unit that does multiple things (Kills infantry, heavy infantry, MCs, and suppresses/kills light armor). And that's the real issue with your FWs, they do one thing pretty well, but kroot are cheaper, do it about as well and have the ability to infiltrate to slow up enemy assault units.

[Zimfan]

My AoBR set and set of ten Boyz just came in (the latter to be followed shortly by another).

AoBR guys are put together (with some extremely minor customization. I liked one of the Nob heads for the warboss and switched them). I'm going to start painting them this weekend (with some much needed help, turns out my wife is interested in the painting part of the hobby so we'll be working on them together).

Right now I'm putting the non AoBR Boyz together and wanted to make sure I wasn't making any big mistakes before I start gluing. Could someone with experience with Orks tell me if I'm correct in thinking that there aren't any larger legs or heads for the single Nob in the squad? Also, as far as extra weapon choices is the Rokkit Launcha a bad choice? I was thinking of using it to add some anti tank ability to a mob.

[Deth Muncher]

Hey, so, this seems like the best place to ask about this: I've run out of my usage of the full version of Army Builder. Is there a program LIKE Army Builder that I can run for free that isn't the demo version of Army Builder? I need to write up a 750 list, but I don't want to have to keep using the demo and exiting out of it.

[Cheesegear]

Could someone with experience with Orks tell me if I'm correct in thinking that there aren't any larger legs or heads for the single Nob in the squad?

AoBR does not come with any Nobz for the Boyz squad(s). Unless you use one of the Nobz from the 5.

Also, as far as extra weapon choices is the Rokkit Launcha a bad choice? I was thinking of using it to add some anti tank ability to a mob.

It's not really anti-tank. It's a BS2 Rokkit. You'll probably shoot it three times in a game, and only hit once. Rokkits in Boyz squads are only good for 'lucky shots'. I'm not going to pretend that its viable anti-tank. But, it can kill tanks...Rarely.

Ork ranged Anti-Tank is stuff from the Heavy Support slots and Deffkoptas with Twin-Linked Rokkits. Anything else that isn't a Nob or Warboss with a Power Klaw probably isn't going to kill a tank except on the very best of days.

I've run out of my usage of the full version of Army Builder. Is there a program LIKE Army Builder that I can run for free that isn't the demo version of Army Builder?

Microsoft Word, Wordpad, or Notepad, and Calculator is good. I've never used anything other than those to write my lists, and I've never had any complaints.

[Zimfan]

Sorry, I meant the Nob from the box of Ten Boyz I had bought in addition to AoBR. It has parts for a Nob (with Power Klaw). There's a larger torso (plus arm with PK), but as far as I can tell no larger head or legs for him.

Sounds like the rokkit is a waste then. Too bad, it does look nice.

AoBR does not come with any Nobz for the Boyz squad(s). Unless you use one of the Nobz from the 5.

[Deth Muncher]

Microsoft Word, Wordpad, or Notepad, and Calculator is good. I've never used anything other than those to write my lists, and I've never had any complaints.

Yeeeees, but those require me to be looking at my Codex, which I don't always have with me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I tend to use Excel for army lists.

[Deth Muncher]

Sorry, maybe I should rephrase: Is there any free program that has all of the information on units and such like Army Builder does?