Screw magic, We have Science! It works, bitches![3.5][base class][PEACH]

[AyeGill]

This is a class concept i've been knocking around with for a while now. meant for futuristic setting.
The Engineer


"And the answer is: Use a gun. And if that doesn't work? Use more gun"
-The Engineer, on practical problems.

The Engineer is to technology what the artificer is to magic. A specialist when it comes to the creation of devices, be they electronic or mechanical, the engineer can, given time to prepare, create the right tool for any job.


Table:

Spoiler

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special*
1st	+0	+0	+0	+2	Craft Tool
2nd	+1	+0	+0	+3	Jury Rig
3rd	+1	+1	+1	+3	The Right Tool for the Job
4th	+2	+1	+1	+4	Duct Tape and Staples
5th	+2	+1	+1	+4	Craft Device(2nd level spells)
6th	+3	+2	+2	+5	The Right tool for the Job(masterwork)
7th	+3	+2	+2	+5	Craft Robot(medium)
8th	+4	+2	+2	+6	Craft Device(3rd level spells)
9th	+4	+3	+3	+6	The Right Tool for the Job(shared)
10th	+5	+3	+3	+7	Craft Robot(Large), Craft Device (+1 CL)
11th	+5	+3	+3	+7	Craft Device(4th level spells)
12th	+6/+1	+4	+4	+8	Good Things take Time
13th	+6/+1	+4	+4	+8	Craft Robot(huge)
14th	+7/+2	+4	+4	+9	Craft Device(5th level spells)
15th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+9	Craft Device (+2 CL)
16th	+8/+3	+5	+5	+10	Craft Robot(gargantuan)
17th	+8/+3	+5	+5	+10	Craft Device(6th level spells)
18th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+11	Use Technology
19th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+11	Craft Robot(colossal)
20th	+10/+5	+6	+6	+12	Craft Device(7th level spells, +3 CL)

*

Misc:

Spoiler

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

Class Skills:
Appraise(int), Concentration(con), Craft(int), Disable Device(int), Forgery(int), Knowledge(any electronics, mechanics, or software related)(int), Open Lock(dex), profession(wis), sleight of hand(dex), Speak Language, Use Rope(dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features:

Spoiler

Craft Tool: The Engineer can create tools, devices that give a skill bonus. The maximum skill bonus of these devices is equal to one half the engineer's class level, plus his intelligence modifier. To craft a tool, he must succeed on a craft(mechanics) or craft(electronics) check with a DC equal to 10 + 2x the bonus in question, and expend materials worth 10 gp per point of bonus. The time it takes to craft a tool is equal to the bonus of the tool, squared, in days.

Jury Rig(ex): The Engineer can, if pressed for time, quickly whack something together out of some spare parts. From second level on, the engineer can increase the progress made on the crafting of an item, from a craft check, by ten percent, plus five percent per engineer level. However, if the craft check fails, the object he's trying to craft is destroyed, and all progress so far is lost, as well as all materials used so far.

The Right Tool for the Job(ex): at level 3, the engineer seems to always have just the tool he needs for the job. He never suffers skill penalties for lacking tools, although he cant give these tools to others.
At level 6, he always has the masterwork tools associated with any skill.
At level 9, this effect applies to anybody within his natural reach.

Duct Tape and Staples(ex): At level 4, the engineer can improvise materials at the cost of quality. He can reduce the cost to craft any item by 25%, but at the cost of reducing all stats of the finished item by 25% as well. Stats is hardness, hp, damage, AC bonus, (but not ACF or any other penalties)

Craft Device: At fifth level, the Engineer learns to create A Device. A Device is capable of generating any specific evocation, illusion, conjuration(creation) or conjuration(healing) spell effect. Although the Device creates a spell effect, it it not a magical effect, and cannot be dispelled, nor is it suppressed in an antimagic field. To craft a Device, the Engineer must succeed on a Craft(mechanics) or Craft(Electronic) check, with a DC equal to 15 + the spell level of the spell in question x2. The spell has a caster level equal to the Engineer's Class level. The materials to create a Device costs 10 gp x Spell level x Spell level x Caster Level. The Engineer can voluntarily lower the caster level to reduce the cost. The device can be activated once per caster level it has.
At level five, the Engineer can create Devices containing 2nd level spells or lower. At every third level from there, his maximum spell level is increased by one.
At level ten, the engineer gains a +1 to caster level when crafting devices. This increases to +2 at level 15 and to +3 at level 20
Only an engineer posses the know-how to use a device.
the time it takes to craft the device is equal to one day per caster level of the device, plus one day per spell level of the device.

Craft Robot: At 7th level, the Engineer learns how to craft a robot. A robot is a small creature of the construct(robot) type. First the Engineer must craft the robot's hull. This requires a craft (Mechanical) check with DC 20, and costs 5000 gp in materials.
The control systems must then be crafted, with a craft(Electronics) check with DC 20, and this also costs 5000 gp in materials. This check must be made and paid twice, once for sensors and once for internal systems.

Lastly, the robot must be programmed. This requires a Knowledge(computer science) or knwoledge(software) or knowledge(programming) check, with DC 20.

The robot has 3 construct hit dice, but additional can be added by increasing the cost and time required to craft the hull by 1000 gp and one day.

The robot has a base land speed of 30ft. This can be improved by increasing the cost of the hull by 500 gp per 5 ft, and increasing the DC of the control system by 5 points per 5 ft.

The robot is normally tiny size. If it has more than five HD, it is small. If it has more than 10, it is medium. If it has more than 15, it is large. If it has more than 20, it is huge. If it has more than 25, it is gargantuan. If it has more than 30, it is Colossal.
At 7th level, the Engineer can craft a robot of maximally medium size. At every third level from there, his maximum size is increased by one.

The robot has ability scores of 10(except constitution). These can be increased as follows:

Strength: Add 500 gp and +5 DC to the hull crafting cost/check, per point

Dexterity: Add 500 gp and +5 DC to the internal control systems crafting cost/check, per point

Wisdom: Add 500 gp and +5 DC to the sensor systems crafting cost/check, per point

Intelligence and Charisma: Add +5 DC to the programming check, per point(each +5 DC adds a point to both)



The robot has one feat per ten points of intelligence. These can be any feats it qualifies for.

Good Things Take Time(ex): At 12h level, the Engineer can add up to 10% per engineer level to the time required to craft something, and in turn add or subtract the same percentage to or from any one stat of the item(hardness, hp, damage, AC, etc).

Use Technology(ex): At 18th level, the Engineer never requires training to use any sort of technology, but instantly knows how to operate it as though he had maximum ranks in the relevant skilll(usually knowledge or profession). He also counts as having a full BAB when using any weapons for which the technology was invented after the 21st century, or is similarly advanced(DM's discretion, usually anything that isn't invented today).

thoughts/suggestions? Overpowered? Underpowered? Obsolete? Stupid?
Post your thoughts.

[awa]

I don't see the stats for the robot str, dex ect that seems pretty important

[AyeGill]

its under the entry for craft robot, actually.

First the Engineer must craft the robot's hull. This requires a craft (Mechanical) check with DC 20, and costs 5000 gp in materials. This takes five days. The robot has a strength score of ten plus one for each five points with which the check result exceeds the DC.
The control systems must then be crafted, with a craft(Electronics) check with DC 20, and this also costs 5000 gp in materials. This also takes five days. The robot has a dexterity score of ten plus one for each five points with which the craft check exceeds the DC.
Lastly, the robot must be programmed. This requires a Knowledge(computer science) or knwoledge(software) or knowledge(programming) check, with DC 20. This takes five days The robot has an intelligence score of ten plus one for each five points with which the check result exceeds the DC

Bolded for emphasis.

Should i reformat that?

[awa]

you probably should
also a potential problem i noticed is for robot crafting their are a lot of buffs that can dramatically increase a single skill check.

[AyeGill]

I'm not as concerned about that, seeing as how you'd get +1 to the ability score for each +5 (so +20 would get you a +4, not that much).

While i supposed you could get it pretty high using magic items, tools, buffs, i still don't think it's potentially unbalancing. not compared to some of the crazy **** artificer can pull, anyway.

also reformatted the text in the craft robot entry.

[awa]

its much easier to read now.
one possible concern is they need several skills for making robots and unless I'm mistaken their are no other uses for them. that seems like a large investment for a companion. also does the robot do anything? can you say give it claws so it can fight? give it natural armor? it has an int score does it gain feats/ skills based on it's hit dice like normal or just the ones from the int score

[Hanuman]

The right tool for the job is not actually a class feature, it's a cop-out.

Instead of actually having the tools for the job, he is pretending he has them.

IMO replace this with Eschew Tools or take it out, if you don't have the tools then you do not have them.


Other than that, this class is completely broken.

Replace "Robots" with Warforged or Constructs and use those rules, templates and examples for a basis, Effigy would be the best template.

Look up the rules on Artificer, and use those as a basis for the spell-like rules, ect.

What powers the machines if not magic? Clockwork? Then what powers that?

Living constructs are different, but you'd have to be pretty high level to start creating living constructs, so I assume you mean constructs (which are capable of thought and ability, see Brass Man as a good example of a Construct, Fire type.

Simply put, magic effects == magic effects. You could make it alchemical, you could make it mechanical or physical or whatever, but in an AMF anything that does not contain positive/neg energy oddities like warforged and undead will cease to function inside.

[awa]

how is the class broken?
The robots are constructs (i think ill double check) why should they make living constructs at all where is that coming from. they just have bizarre construction rules. are those rules balanced? I would have to do some math and research but that's why he put them on the boards in the first place.

really why does a fire bomb (fire ball) need to be magic? an anti magic field does not even stop orb spells on the logic you are summoning fire from somewhere (i think) else so in my opinion that means it only stops magic effects a steam punk lightning gun should work just fine. maybe it's not particularly realistic but hey high its dnd. what powers the device would probably vary from character to character or the setting. bottled lightning, clock work wind up the classic steam engine, gasoline, batteries their are plenty of things that could power a device does it really matter?

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by awa

how is the class broken?

Skill checks to create stats SCREAMS broken. Reminds me of my +40 diplomacy +60 bluff characters at mid-level.

The robots are constructs (i think ill double check) why should they make living constructs at all where is that coming from. they just have bizarre construction rules. are those rules balanced? I would have to do some math and research but that's why he put them on the boards in the first place.

Because if they are not powered by soul magic then what are they powered by? If not from positive/negative energy then why do they work in AMF let along CAST through it?

really why does a fire bomb (fire ball) need to be magic? an anti magic field does not even stop orb spells on the logic you are summoning fire from somewhere (i think) else so in my opinion that means it only stops magic effects a steam punk lightning gun should work just fine.

If not alchemical and not magic then how does it work? Where does the energy come from?
I would be willing to say it could be alchemical and therefor goes past AMF, but if it does not require expendable materials to do that then it's either got a Su or a spell.
You could expend materials for the fuel, you could expend the battery cartridges for lightning or use the magical trap rules, ect.

maybe it's not particularly realistic but hey high its dnd. what powers the device would probably vary from character to character or the setting. bottled lightning, clock work wind up the classic steam engine, gasoline, batteries their are plenty of things that could power a device does it really matter?

I agree with all of this, but Gasoline would be alchemical, the same as Oil is.

Construct crafters do not gain gold efficiency from crafting buddies, they lose gold. That's called balance.

Same as your rogue would lose gold by buying a thunderstone or your cleric by buying shapesand or your wizard from buying a Chaos Flask, regardless of the powers, 3.5 has always been about balancing around "doing with magic" and "doing things the hard way".

[Kuma Kode]

Craft Tool: should be brought in line with Masterwork tools, which are +2 for 100 gp.

Jury Rig: Not terribly useful.

Right Tool For the Job: Again, not all that fantastic.

Duct Tape and Staples: Potentially abuseable with items that do not rely on stats. Also, what does "stats" mean?

Craft Device: Does the engineer need to have access to this spell, either through a scroll or buddy, to understand how to make a device that replicates it (WITH SCIENCE), or can he make any spell he so chooses?

How many times can a device be activated?

Craft Robot: The ability scores should cost extra to increase, such as needing more elaborate or sophisticated parts.

You also forgot the Robot's Wisdom and Charisma, but I assume they're similar.

Good Things Take Time: Again, not terribly useful unless you're worried about items being sundered, and unless I missed something, you're still stuck crafting nonmagical items at this level, so your items aren't even going to get used.

-------------------------------------

The class is interesting, but ludicrously underpowered. Other than its two main features Craft Device and Craft Robot, which are rather abusable due to some vagueness, it's little more than an Expert with some ability to tweak the parameters of the (nonmagical) gear he makes. The Expert, at least, can pick its class skill list. Since this appears to be designed for D&D, that's what I'm comparing it to. You may want to look into d20 Future if you want some futuristic d20 experiences... D&D really isn't designed to be stretched that far.

If you insist on using D&D, that's fine, but you'll need to give the class a bit more than simply tweaking their parameters. Hardness and HP of the weapon isn't that big of a deal, and percentages don't work well with most of them, anyway.

I suggest focusing not so much on slightly improving or speeding up crafting, but being able to make things no other character can, such as their robots and those odd devices. Maybe even watch some MacGyver episodes for inspiration. Where wizards always have the right tool for the job, the engineer can freakin' MAKE the tool for the job, on the spot.

[An Enemy Spy]

Nonononono! It's not science. It's SCIENCE!
Say it with me. SCIENCE!

[AyeGill]

Originally Posted by Hanuman

Skill checks to create stats SCREAMS broken. Reminds me of my +40 diplomacy +60 bluff characters at mid-level.

Yeah, a +60 skill modifier would create a robot with stats(assuming you pull it on all three skills) of 22. That would give it a grand two feats, a fair amount of skill points, and of course everything that comes with high stats. It could probably be useful in combat, or for utility, but no way it's game breaking.

Craft Tool: should be brought in line with Masterwork tools, which are +2 for 100 gp.

And crafting them, it's 33,3 gp in materials. really, you save 13.3 gp. I don't think there's a problem there, really. He's just crafting even better tools.

Jury Rig: Not terribly useful.

Well, no. it slightly reduces crafting time, but you're right. maybe have it reduce the time to craft an item by x%, to at that level its still marginally faster, but at level 20 you can craft pretty much everything in half an hour?

Right Tool For the Job: Again, not all that fantastic.

Well, i figured it made sense for him to always have those tools if he needs to make some check he didn't think to craft one for. I don't know, not supposed to be that powerful, just a little bonus.

Duct Tape and Staples: Potentially abuseable with items that do not rely on stats. Also, what does "stats" mean?

I see your point, and stats means stuff like damage, hp, hardness, AC, (though not ACF, that would be stupid), etc. clarified that.

Craft Device: Does the engineer need to have access to this spell, either through a scroll or buddy, to understand how to make a device that replicates it (WITH SCIENCE), or can he make any spell he so chooses?

How many times can a device be activated?

Any spell he chooses. It can be activated once per caster level it has(i thought i wrote that. My text is disappearing.)

Craft Robot: The ability scores should cost extra to increase, such as needing more elaborate or sophisticated parts.

You also forgot the Robot's Wisdom and Charisma, but I assume they're similar.

You have a point. added cost, and wisdom/charisma (made charisma part of the intelligence check. Seems the most logical thing). I'm not really sure the robot should have a charisma score at all, but it definitely should have a wisdom score and the two are mutually inclusive.

Good Things Take Time: Again, not terribly useful unless you're worried about items being sundered, and unless I missed something, you're still stuck crafting nonmagical items at this level, so your items aren't even going to get used.

Well, you could take twice as long crafting the suit of armor that the party mage is going to enhance, but then subtract 100% from ACF. And this is compatible with jury rigging, mind you, so you could also drop time required with 70% afterwards, because jury rigging doesn't affect ACF. Not mind-shatteringly powerful, but useful in its own right.

The class is interesting, but ludicrously underpowered. Other than its two main features Craft Device and Craft Robot, which are rather abusable due to some vagueness, it's little more than an Expert with some ability to tweak the parameters of the (nonmagical) gear he makes. The Expert, at least, can pick its class skill list. Since this appears to be designed for D&D, that's what I'm comparing it to. You may want to look into d20 Future if you want some futuristic d20 experiences... D&D really isn't designed to be stretched that far.

If you insist on using D&D, that's fine, but you'll need to give the class a bit more than simply tweaking their parameters. Hardness and HP of the weapon isn't that big of a deal, and percentages don't work well with most of them, anyway.

I suggest focusing not so much on slightly improving or speeding up crafting, but being able to make things no other character can, such as their robots and those odd devices. Maybe even watch some MacGyver episodes for inspiration. Where wizards always have the right tool for the job, the engineer can freakin' MAKE the tool for the job, on the spot.

I am reluctantly forced to agree with you. I'll look into it.

[awa]

I see no reason he cant have a steam punk robot. it does not have to be magic in fact you may have noticed that we today have non magical robots funny that. As someone mentioned its not science its SCIENCE did dr. Frankenstein use magic? no of course not he used lightning to bring a man stitched together from other men to life.
the power source DOES NOT MATTER.

[Hanuman]

There are already steam punk robots.
And no, I don't remember what they are called =P

Frankenstein is a flesh golem, there are rules for that.

[awa]

magic is one way to do it but so is SCIENCE. dr. Frankenstein was no wizard he was a mad scientist.

Just because you can make an explosion of fire with magic does not mean that should be the only way. Just because you can make a construct with magic does not mean you shouldn't be able to make a robot without magic.

your argument makes no sense.

[Kuma Kode]

Originally Posted by Hanuman

Frankenstein is a flesh golem, there are rules for that.

Nitpick: Frankenstein was a human.

Flesh golems were inspired by his monster, but his monster is not a flesh golem. A flesh golem is a perfectly valid means to replicate the classic Frankenstein's monster in D&D, but the two are functionally different.

Flesh golems are animated by an elemental spirit through rituals and carry a magic immunity.

Frankenstein's monster was animated through electric shock (believed at some points to be the essence of life) with abuse of science, and shows no indication of being immune to magic.

The only thing they really share is that they're made of multiple dead bodies. There are many undead that are essentially the same thing. It's the animating force that matters. Undead if it's negative energy, construct (golem) if it's elemental, construct (robot) if it's mechanical/no-magic electrical.

[Ozymandias]

What is this class expected to do before level 5, especially in combat? How exactly does he get the money to afford its creations? Low BaB, low hp, no class features relevant to combat, no spells or maneuvers, no proficiencies (probably an oversight)... unless you expect every engineer to do a lot of professioning, something needs to change.

Give it d6 and medium BaB, and something at level 1 to make the it tolerable to play before you get your toys. Maybe some sort of handcrafted weapon type deal, with special properties but can't be enchanted so it stops being useful eventually. The engineer in TF2 is an able combatant, so it's sort of silly to see him as weak as a kitten (well, weaker) here.

Besides, you get 6+int skill points which is nice, but to actually use your class features you're going to have to put five of them into skills that are really only useful because they feed your class features - even though there are some official classes that do this sort of thing (e.g. truenamer) it isn't good design, and even then they don't do it this much.

Personally, I would give the engineer more plentiful, cheaper (or free altogether), and weaker creations available as he goes up in levels - it's not fun to have to devote most of your budget just so your pet can stay competetive, and if your giant robot goes the way of the dinosaur.

Like:

Blueprint: The Boltslinger
Light crossbow modification, requires Engineer 1 and craft(something) X
Suffers no penalty when used with one hand, can be reloaded with same

or

Blueprint: Eberroneon Hospitality
Melee Weapon modification, requires Engineer 3 and craft(something) x
Struck creatures must make a fortitude save at (10+other factors) or take X bleeding damage for Y rounds

or

Blueprint: Needed dispenser, here
Engineer Creation, requires Engineer 5 and craft(something) x
All allied creatures within 3 meters gain fast healing 5. This creation is only active for a number of rounds equal to the Engineers class level + int modifier.

And then require maintenance for these things so that you can't just have an adventuring party buy them at a shop, instead needing an actual engineer in the party. So maybe they only last 24 hours before they stop working unless maintained, something like that, or even just make it so only engineers can use them. Or separate them into stronger ones that require intimate knowledge and weaker ones that laypeople can be trained to use. That sort of thing.

Also, there really aren't any weapons for which the "technology" was invented after the 21st century, unless you get very specific. I don't think there are any armies who currently use firearms designed later than the year 2000 (and those are very very similar to much older stuff, too). It's also probably a bad idea to have a capstone based purely on setting and DM fiat.

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Kuma Kode

Nitpick: Frankenstein was a human.

Flesh golems were inspired by his monster, but his monster is not a flesh golem. A flesh golem is a perfectly valid means to replicate the classic Frankenstein's monster in D&D, but the two are functionally different.

Flesh golems are animated by an elemental spirit through rituals and carry a magic immunity.

Frankenstein's monster was animated through electric shock (believed at some points to be the essence of life) with abuse of science, and shows no indication of being immune to magic.

The only thing they really share is that they're made of multiple dead bodies. There are many undead that are essentially the same thing. It's the animating force that matters. Undead if it's negative energy, construct (golem) if it's elemental, construct (robot) if it's mechanical/no-magic electrical.

Nitpick: Minor fluff does not override the rule of example.

If there are rules for it, use them.

TBH I find almost every PrC array is like a fashion show, the costumes are pretty and flavorful and pretty nice designs, but their actual application is almost always actually meant to be an example, as fashion shows that: "Hey, dress type color X works with top pattern Y, that's inspirational!" and then all the shops that spring will seem to follow a trend showing these new found working combinations.

As such, most PrC's CAN be replicated with base classes, and usually are.

[Temotei]

Is that title a reference to xkcd? I just read a strip today with the end of your title in it.

I might read this, if I get the time.

[Kuma Kode]

Originally Posted by Hanuman

As such, most PrC's CAN be replicated with base classes, and usually are.

Just because you CAN do something with the existing rules does not mean you HAVE to do it that way. If the designer of the class wants nonmagical robots, so be it. If I want to make a custom monster specifically to be perfectly in line with something from fiction rather than a close approximation, that is also fine.

You can make a holy warrior by multiclassing cleric and fighter, and yet there's the paladin. You can get a pretty close approximation of a samurai with just the fighter, and yet there's not one, but two samurai classes. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to approximate.

Telling the designer that he/she should use magic/magical constructs/magical power sources is not at all useful when the design goal seems to be to achieve similar effects specifically without magic.

AyeGill: Have you checked out d20 Future's robot rules? They might help you modularize your robots to make them more customizable.

[AyeGill]

Alright everyone, thanks for all the feedback. A new robot system is in the works, in addition to a new system to replace all the small little things he could do with craft checks. the revisions will be up when i'm done with them.

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Kuma Kode

You can make a holy warrior by multiclassing cleric and fighter, and yet there's the paladin. You can get a pretty close approximation of a samurai with just the fighter, and yet there's not one, but two samurai classes--

Hands down the best example of "why to use PrC's as flavor examples".

[AyeGill]

Originally Posted by Hanuman

Hands down the best example of "why to use PrC's as flavor examples".

agreed. the samurai is a very, very bad example of creating classes to fill a space that can be emulated by others. Pretty much anything would make a better samurai than the samurai.

[Kuma Kode]

The fact the class was terrible does not invalidate the point that it was made to fill a niche that could be approximated by other classes still remains. Had the class actually been done well and did its design idea justice, would it still be a problem because such a thing could be approximated?

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Kuma Kode

Telling the designer that he/she should use magic/magical constructs/magical power sources is not at all useful when the design goal seems to be to achieve similar effects specifically without magic.

You do not understand, I'm saying that the rules for all these things already exist, are balanced, and have been tested millions of times.

The difference here, is mere fluff.

I'm saying it's a LOT easier to change a couple lines of fluff to make a pre-integrated monster work than to integrate a new monster that works on nearly identical principles yet cannot utilize the tons of released content and is basically painted into a homebrew corner where anyone who would ever use your material has to rely on either you releasing more or them homebrewing more.

I totally agree that homebrew is awesome, homebrewed classes can be and are wonderful whether they are usable or not, but when it comes down to it we should critique and boil down... we need WAY more boiling down to create more true-root PrC's to conglomerate the dozens of each per character theme, and to do so in a balanced and elegant way.

IMO, ToB is a good example of how to bring a few classes together, balance the fighter, create a HUGE amount of versatility, and basically make dozens of related PrC's kinda outdated.

Originally Posted by Kuma Kode

The fact the class was terrible does not invalidate the point that it was made to fill a niche that could be approximated by other classes still remains. Had the class actually been done well and did its design idea justice, would it still be a problem because such a thing could be approximated?

If it created a system that made it anything but a bad fighter? Yeah possibly, ToB would be a good example of what you could do to make that better.

I'd like to hear what you would do with it to make it worth HBing as a playable class though, other than what could be just made into HB feats, maneuvers and stances.

[Kuma Kode]

I apologize. I may have read too much into your previous comments or misinterpreted them as being mildly malicious. I read it kind of as the largely unhelpful comments some homebrew seems to get, roughly equating to "just use [insert similar class/race/feat here]."

Judging by your longer comment, I think I may have been projecting real-life, unrelated annoyance.

I didn't mean to turn this into a debate or hijack the thread.

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Kuma Kode

I apologize. I may have read too much into your previous comments or misinterpreted them as being mildly malicious. I read it kind of as the largely unhelpful comments some homebrew seems to get, roughly equating to "just use [insert similar class/race/feat here]."

Judging by your longer comment, I think I may have been projecting real-life, unrelated annoyance.

I didn't mean to turn this into a debate or hijack the thread.

I'm a fan of organic conversation.

[Hanuman]

The rule book is called War Machine, it introduces something called WarJacks, essentially what your looking for.