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Thread: Spells: What to Ban?
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2012-11-13, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
The bolded statement is flat-out false. There are no non-optional, default rules for replacing feats (or any other character building choice); because by the default rules changing such choices is impossible. The default rule is that these things are set in stone. It was only the later introduction of a set of optional retraining rules, as well as a set of spells and powers in completely unrelated sources that this became possible. All of these options are specific exceptions to the general rule that feats can't be changed, none of which takes precedent over any of the others.
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2012-11-13, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
The properties of feat slots are mostly, when used for character building, only used temporarily. Out of mind and out of sight, does not mean it doesnt exist.
while retraining itself is the only thing that confirms it, nothing in Core itself actually says that feat slots lose their properties once expended, filled, or whatever the term for using one is.
DCFS does care about qualifying for a feat though. In core this is a grey area, with no confirmation asto memory of the properties of Feat slots, the PHB2 clearly shows that, yes, feat slots do retain their properties. the vague line of Embrace that says if you do not qualify for the heritor, then the spell fails, was specifically written for Poison claws. But was left general or rewritten to be more general so that, as a result, the feat does care asto whether feat slots retain their propertiesMy Homebrew: found here.
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2012-11-13, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
There are no "feat slots" to have properties. You're just making stuff up wholesale now.
You get feats at 1st and every 3rd level and whenever some specific item* says you do. Some of those specific items* ask you to select from a subset of all feats rather than allowing you to choose any feat you like, and some simply give you a specific feat, but none of them give you "feat slots" or add any new prerequisites to the feat you choose (though some do allow you to waive the existing requirements of a feat).
*"item" in this case doesn't mean magic item but rather is being used in the context of rules items; clauses and paragraphs within the rules text of various feats, class-features, and indeed even a few magic items.
What you're saying may make a certain amount of sense from a logical standpoint, but it doesn't have a RAW leg to stand on.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-13, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
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2012-11-13, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Dex
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2012-11-13, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Fighter Bonus feats and p192-193 of PHB2, i already showed that. And the glossary doesnt have anything on feats
Half of the RAW problems come from the fact that 3rd and 3.5 were rough drafts with either dreadful Dawizards or short sighted designers.
Whatever the exact term is for whatever a feat is purchased with, that temporary token used to purchase the feat is not lost. Wizards hasnt disclosed or erratad what this specific thing is.Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-13 at 10:13 PM.
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2012-11-13, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Again, this just isn't true.
Feats are most definitely a defined game term. They've got an entire chapter in the PHB dedicated specifically to defining them. If there were any kind of feat slots or feat points to be considered it would've been explicitly spelled out somewhere.
For a point of contrast, skillpoints were clearly defined as how one aquires skill ranks, they were also defined as being irrecoverable after being spent.
You're arguing for something you want to be true, and probably should be true, but simply isn't true.
There is no trade, there is no expense, you just get the feats at the designated times.
Btw, there're a number of things that aren't defined in the glossary that are still recognized game terms. Feats are just one.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-13, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
too bad we dont have whatever could be called the Source Papers (the intermediary stuff between the coke and 3rd).
Feats, although ill agree the glossary is unrelyable as it is hosted by the publisher, who also witch hunted its own product, arent in the glossary, PHB or WotC. its a chapter defining one of the 3 universal systems of D20My Homebrew: found here.
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2012-11-13, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Being in the glossary is not what makes something a defined game term.
Show me in fighter bonus feats where it says that there are feat slots, or tokens, or whatever you are trying to call them. Also show me that the feats 'remember' where they came from. Finally show me how the additional restrictions on feat choice at the time of selection becomes part of the 'prerequisites' as you asserted earlier.
The PHII does not apply to this, because that is rules for retraining feats. DCFS is not retraining.Dex
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2012-11-13, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Wall of text, incoming.
Originally Posted by player's handbook pg 87
How the heck much more definition do you need? Except for the redacted portions that's what the book says, word-for-word.
Note that it includes language that specifically denies there being any expenditures of any kind to aquire your feats. Also note that the prerequisite section says nothing about bonus feats having extra prerequisites based on the fact they're bonus feats.
There is no specific language anywhere that disallows the DCFS's functioning exactly as everyone but you is saying it does. Your quote from PHB2 is invalid for being a seperate system from both normal character advancement and the magic system that contains the DCFS. It's not a clarification, it's a variant that's not available to all players and isn't assumed to be in play by anything in FC1.
Simply put, magic does it better, just like it always has.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-13 at 11:13 PM.
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2012-11-13, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
1: If there is a term for what feats occupy, it has no name for it ingame. Slot is being used for convenience of speach.
2: The PHB2 retraining is specifically where we find that feats have knowledge of ALL of their "slot's" properties. What attributes you had at that level, skill ranks, class levels, and source of the feat. The memory of the source is what is important, because that is what shuts down DCFSing things such as Fighter bonus feats. Because Embrace itself has to check* whether the to be changed "feat slot" is able to accept the Abyssal Heritor feat, it cant just shove out your 11 extraneous weapon focus feats. Once the feat removes the chosen weapon focus, The "Feat slot" is no longer a valid target for an Abyssal Heritor feat, and as a result, the spell fails.
*Originally Posted by Embrace the Dark Chaos
@Kelb: you bolded the parts which define feats as separate from skills. (IMO the entire PHB is fluff counteracting the delivery of the rules.) How do you partially learn a spell? how do you partially take a level? Not all systems in DnD are progressive in the same manner.Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-13 at 11:22 PM.
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2012-11-13, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
And there's the "the rules that say I'm wrong aren't really rules" argument.
I think we're done here.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-13, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
I don't know if you're running a strictly no-evil campaign or not, but from the perspective of a player cleric, I can say that many of the spells with an [evil] descriptor are things that seem too powerful for their level. Particularly things from the BoVD, which gives save-or-dies much earlier than non-[evil] spells, as well as a number of spells with hefty ability drain or damage, again at fairly low levels. Removing (at least some) [evil] spells seems reasonable to me if the party is N to G.
Any of the Quest/Geas spells seem like they might be a bit unbalancing in the hands of PCs as well.
Here's a quick list of some divine spells that I feel are especially over-powered for their level (I don't know anything about arcane spells).
0: slash tongue (BoVD)
1: heartache (BoVD)
seething eyebane (BoVD)
2: fangs of the vampire king (BoVD)
investiture of the X (FC, all of these spells)
lahm's finger darts (BoVD)
necrotic cyst (LM, and all of its related spells)
3: clutch of orcus (BoVD)
love's pain (BoVD)
ROTTING CURSE OF URFESTRA (BoVD - definitely get rid of this one)
wrack (BoVD)
4: infernal transformation, lesser (SC, and all of the related spells)
yochlol's blessing (DotU)
5: beblith blessing (DotU)
heartclutch (BoVD)
morality undone (BoVD)
6+: things are pretty balanced by this point. But save-or-die before 6 seems ridiculous in my opinion.Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2012-11-15 at 12:28 AM. Reason: Edited to fix book references.
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2012-11-14, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
no, you quoted exposition detailing the differences between skills and feats. Honestly the exposition takes away from that section of the rulebook. Alot. but the entire feats chapter was written without logic.
ok, so feats are not bought with points. They are bought with missing term. how do you get missing term? by leveling up. How do you level up? by using experience points. oh, wait, feats are obtained using points.
I dont know why someone would think the skills system could be mistaken for the feats system, why they would go through the effort to write what is a summary that provides no explanation to the reader, or the choices of the editors.My Homebrew: found here.
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2012-11-14, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
So, I just looked at the fighter bonus feats entry in the fighter class, and the short addendum in the feats section of the PHB, and I looked at the feat retraining rules (which ARE optional rules btw), and nowhere does it mention 'feat slots' or anything similar.
The retraining rules mention 'feat choices', i.e. that you chose a feat at a certain level, but the act of choosing is not some sort of 'token' or.. anything else.
Do you have any proof in the rules text for your argument?
Also, on topic, people (especially DMs) who say that they want to ban things to 'balance' 3.5, in my experience, typically want to introduce a mandatory balance level (that is usually lower than their group's preferred play level) and are attempting to do so by declaring certain things 'broken' (read: more powerful than that specific balance level). This approach is flawed in that DnD is often too complex to be 'fixed' by ban lists, and often those taking this approach ban things that seem powerful to them but actually are not.
The only time i've seen ban lists work is in arena competitions, and even then, usually the list is quite small and often consists of more general concepts, like 'infinite loops'.
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2012-11-14, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
How is the phrase "feats are not bought with points" any kind of ambiguous.
Moreover, where is it even implied anywhere that these phantom "slots" of yours even exist at all.
If that's how you phrase it to understand it that's fine, but it's not part of the rules anywhere.
The quote I posted even says in plain english that a "Player simply chooses them (feats) for her character, " with no mention of any kind of slot or point or expenditure of any kind.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-14 at 12:33 AM.
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2012-11-14, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Fighter bonus feats create "featslots" that have restrictions.
normally these restrictions are ignored after the feat is chosen because you are not typically forced to scan whether you have a feat in a place that it doesnt belong (such as what DCFS does).
No where in the core/srd rules does it say these restrictions are maintained or removed afterwards.
the Feat retraining rules specify that these bonus feats retain their restrictions, for the sake of potentially retraining the feats.
When you use Embrace the dark chaos on a fighter bonus feat, the abyssal heritor feat scans to see if it is performing a legal action, but the action embrace the dark chaos is performing is no longer legal because of restrictions on the "featslot" being replaced.
"Feats are not bought with points" isnt ambiguous. It is wrong, because they are obtained through leveling up.
saying that you just choose a feat is like saying you can have floating skill points at level up. you cant, because the rules require you to expend them at level up.
to word it without feat slots:
A feat which has the (what should be a descriptor) special: "Fighter Bonus Feat" may occupy a Feat granted by levels of Fighter. No Abyssal Heritor Feat has the special: A fighter may select this as his bonus feat. Because the restriction is not met, the feat can not take the "slot" of the feat to be replaced.Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 12:43 AM.
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2012-11-14, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
You still haven't shown anything that even suggests, much less proves, the existence of these feat-slots of yours. Until you do, there doesn't need to be anything regarding restrictions or allowances for them because they don't exist.
The retraining rules still have nothing to do with embrace/shun the dark chaos, since you've provided absolutely no evidence to link them other than a completely unsubstantiated "I say this is how it works."
You have to prove that feat-slots exist before you can base any further argument on them. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke.
I realize that I'm starting to sound a little antagonistic at this point, so I'll point out that this post isn't "you're wrong, just stop talking," it's me pointing out that you're not following any substantiated logic.
It's true that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence in many cases, but an exception based rules system isn't one of those places. In this discussion, the absence of evidence very much -is- the evidence of absence.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-14, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
The text of the fighter bonus feat entry in the fighter class in the PHB makes no mention of 'feat slots'. It says that you are granted one feat at the appropriate levels by the ability, but that feat must be chosen from a specific list.
I don't see where 'slots' come into it. They aren't mentioned, and all it says is that this bonus feat comes with caveats on what can be chosen above and beyond the normal pre-requisites of feats. Thus, i'm going to have to ask again if you have any proof for the existence of 'feat-slots' from the rules text.
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2012-11-14, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Sheriff: Please take this off-topic discussion to a different thread. Or better yet, let it drop.
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2012-11-14, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Druids are powerful enough, it seems, and I recall some challenges with assuming the extraordinary abilities of certain forms. Though, I can't recall anything off hand. It is possible that I'm misremembering.
With respect to Shivering Touch, I think this is a useful, flavorful spell that can be "fixed" rather than banned.
I'm not sure whether/how Wraithstrike is broken. Can someone make the case either way? Or can it be fixed rather than banned?Last edited by ShriekingDrake; 2012-11-14 at 08:39 AM.
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2012-11-14, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
1) Be a 12th level druid
2)Wild Shape into a Shambling Mound using Enhance Wild Shape to get it's Immunity to Electricity (Ex)
3)Blast yourself with electricity damage to taste
4)???
5)Profit
Wraithstrike (especially persisted) bypasses a significant number of components in AC (armor, natural armor, shield etc.) and that bothers some people. IMO it's not broken per se, as there are a whole lot other ways to make powerful characters that make AC irrelevant (casters rarely roll vs. AC, and you can boost your to-hit enough so that AC no longer matters anyway). Most people that consider Wraithstrike broken seem to have a problem with trivializing AC (which is a valid complain), but that's a much wider problem that's unlikely to be solved with banning Wraithstrike alone.
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2012-11-14, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Druids are Tier 1, to be sure. But the Druids are powerful enough argument could be just as easily used with clerics and wizards and on any decent spell.
Thanks Blades, I had forgotten that one. I agree, that one sucks in a low/mid op group. I still don't think it is worth banning the spell, only a caveat that it should be used responsibly, or at most adding a sentence to the spell that it only confers certain types of ex abilities, like senses and skill buffs.
If I were worried about Wildshape, I would ban some of the related feats, or Venomfire. Not Enhance WS.
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2012-11-14, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Perfect example. I think this is enough of a reason. Enhance Wildshape is not a necessary spell. I have no problem seeing it go, but see below.
Wraithstrike (especially persisted) bypasses a significant number of components in AC (armor, natural armor, shield etc.) and that bothers some people. IMO it's not broken per se, as there are a whole lot other ways to make powerful characters that make AC irrelevant (casters rarely roll vs. AC, and you can boost your to-hit enough so that AC no longer matters anyway). Most people that consider Wraithstrike broken seem to have a problem with trivializing AC (which is a valid complain), but that's a much wider problem that's unlikely to be solved with banning Wraithstrike alone.
Banning feats is something I'll consider as well, but I really don't see the value of Enhance Wildshape. I suppose one way to address it is to remove the extraordinary abilities element and keep it around. I'll think on it.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant by renewable spells.Last edited by ShriekingDrake; 2012-11-14 at 09:46 AM.
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2012-11-14, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Last edited by peacenlove; 2012-11-14 at 09:49 AM.
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2012-11-14, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
I think having a druid that can turn into a dog and get scent or into a bat to go somewhere dark is necessary flavor, but YMMV.
Then just ban it. The other uses are worthless. If it doesn't give EX abilities, they are better with a wildling clasp.
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2012-11-14, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
banning? no. Any 1 of the three major druid choices, is only so powerful. getting Natural Spell, Enhance Wild Shape, and (third one im derping on) together are what put druid way over in power. restrict a druid from using all 3 together and you limit alot of their power. planar shepherd is outright banned though.
Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 09:50 AM.
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2012-11-14, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
Only thing I can think of if you want to lower it's power is make it work like Brilliant Energy (ignore armor and shield, but not natural armor, and can't harm constructs&undead). It's still strong but less so, and it discourages persisting it until you have used CoP and asked if you would fight any constructs and undead that day.
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2012-11-14, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
I agree that Shivering Touch is a mess. But I think it can be fixed rather than nixed. It's interesting enough as a spell.
Contigency is a personal range spell with a focus (hi there sleight of hand) and you can only have one in effect at a time. The broken uses for contingency you always here about are uses of the craft contingent spell feat, not the spell.
The entire polymorph subschool is problematic. Just nix anything that doesn't call out a specific form and/or isn't very specific about what the new form gives you. This should include polymorph and alter self at the very least.
On a personal note, I don't think the planar binding line or gate really belong up there either (because forcing wishes can only end poorly. Read; the death of your character at best, and his total annihilation from the planes of reality at worst) but mileages vary on this group so I won't make a big fuss over it unless someone wants a discussion.
Otherwise, that looks about right to me. You might consider Wraith-strike, depending on the overall power level you're shooting for. It's a bit busted at the lower levels of power but at high-octane it's just a staple.Check out my Arboreal Halflings and my Megaliths of Zidydrion.
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2012-11-14, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Spells: What to Ban?
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