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2013-04-09, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Not like Miko. Nothing ever like Miko. The mere mention of her name would summon a flamestorm for years after her death. People don't like Belkar, but you can have a conversation about him without it devolving into a flurry of quote-hate. The reason we have half of the rules about flaming and moral justification threads on this board are because of Miko threads.
Well, it comes down to the fact that there's not much room for additional non-antagonists to be delved into beyond the most cursory level unless they have a unique viewpoint that deserves exploration. Six main characters plus a cast of villains is already a lot to juggle. It's basically conservation of characters; there would be no point to adding the character at all, gender aside, unless I was going to put them in some sort of friendly-fire conflict with the protagonists. Hinjo doesn't have much in the way of strong idealogical views that conflict with the OOTS, and as a result, there's not much reason to spend time on him.Rich Burlew
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2013-04-09, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Lol, not at all! I hated Miko, that is true, but she was a great character. She was not "evil" just because, you got to show how her mind worked, and her circumstances did not help at all, poor thing. And the second she was dead people started to speculate when would she come back. I felt pity for her when redemption was negated to her.
Celia is a different issue. Of course a pacifist character would be hated with a passion by an audience who has a good chunk of players. She is like an NPC who will not shut up when you defend her from monsters! And the "hate" started when she was forced into an adverturing life, which I thought it was sort of the point, and it had nothing to do with her gender (I think).
But look at Therkla. I appreciated the way in which she treated to not betray Kubota nor Elan till the end. She was a genuinely nice character. Look at Lien. I know I cannot be the only one waiting for a bonus comic of "Lien and O'Chul smashing heads". Look at Tsukiko.
And Haley is great. I will defend her and her portrayal with the fury of then thousand suns. Does not mean everyone is going to like her. Some people does not like chocolate.
And is that not great? You created a character who can summon flamestorms years after her death! How is that not a good thing?.Last edited by Leirus; 2013-04-09 at 12:47 PM.
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2013-04-09, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I don't know. Boy meets Girl is something you get from earliest childhood, from fairy tales to soap operas and real life. You will hardly find gay people, who find anything remarkable in this regard. And so most don't have strong feelings about it.
On the other hand, I had several discussions in the past with (predominantly male) straight people about the inclusion of gay people into media that boiled down to the fact that two kissing men make them uncomfortable. They simply short-circuit from kissing to bed and go 'eeeeww' ( less so with kissing women apparently).
Sure, it is a silly reaction, and I usually answer that desensitization-therapy is pretty successful in dealing with irrational emotional responses to stimuli, but I am pretty sure it would make identification for them difficult. It is also grounded in society, but as a spontaneous reaction, it is likely difficult to ignore.
I think it is still a few centuries until this problem dies out.Last edited by blauregen; 2013-04-09 at 12:50 PM.
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2013-04-09, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
That comic was great. Why did it ever stop?
I totally cop to having Smurfetted that one, even if V reads as female to you
It could be worse, you are trying to address it. You're not like Stephen Moffat who denies his work is sexist even though every woman in his fictional work follows a reocurring pattern (that all women really want is children and/or the dependance of a man). Also, don't forget many of the greatest works film and literature have many less females than your work. Star Wars. Lawrence of Arabia. Godfather. Batman films. 12 Angry Men. Harry Potter. LOTR. Akira Kurosawa films. Babylon 5 (maybe)?
And at least your fans aren't accusing you of being racist for killing the dark-skinned OOTS members first.
Edit: I always assumed Miko was made to be deliberately obnoxious and annoying. She was a LG antagonist first, female second (which was important for Roy's character development).Last edited by Sunken Valley; 2013-04-09 at 12:52 PM.
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2013-04-09, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I dunno, for me a character who elicits such a strong answer is always a good made one (I mean, if it is not an offensive one). Who would not slap Joffrey Baratheon, hard?
Last edited by Leirus; 2013-04-09 at 12:58 PM.
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2013-04-09, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Well, yes, that's why I said ignoring society. What I meant was that I don't there are non-cultural reasons at play for difficulty to emphatize and such.
And actually portraying queer relationships as nothing out of the ordinary from a young age just like we do with straight relationships would reduce all of that. The awkwardness is only there because it's created after all.
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2013-04-09, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Shocking. It must be very disappointing to have people think one would not include differently coloured people and disabled people unless forced to do so.
Is there any reason why you refer to the female characters as "females", while referring to the male characters as "men"? You might want to change that, as some people think it's sexist.
@blauregen: So what? Let them have difficulties with identification.
As a straight woman, I could go "ewww, gay cooties!" every time the narrator describes a woman in sexual terms, or swoons for a woman, or kisses a woman, and so on and so forth.
However, I don't, and I expect the same from men.
Edit:
Actually, I like Miko, and don't get why people hate her so much. Sure, she did something evil, but so does Redcloak, not to mention Xykon. And Tarquin. And Malack.
And Miko didn't even want to do something evil, so ...Last edited by Themrys; 2013-04-09 at 01:03 PM.
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2013-04-09, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Denver
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Oh, that's not what I meant, sorry. I always felt that you had done a good job representing women, too. There are plenty of women, good people and bad people, hardcore and normal. I like Haley, Lien, and plenty of others. I never would have guessed the disparity was this much either, honestly. I still think the comic has a number of good women in it.
My point was that if you don't like writing gay characters because you find it difficult to relate, does that mean it is easier for you to relate to female characters than gay ones? Totally not an attack, by the way, just curious about your process and why one would be more challenging than the other.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2013-04-09, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I wasn't around when the Miko strips were first published, so I missed the whole flame war thing. But I found her to be a great character, and one who remained at least somewhat sympathetic right up to her Fall (and I'd even have cut her a bit of slack for that, had she surrendered her sword to Hinjo). Not wanting to start a Miko debate, just sayin' that "universally despised" is an exagerration.
I was around for this one. I never understood the hatedom towards Celia, and still don't. My only criticism of her characterisation is that her ignorance of How Mortals Work was a little forced at times Again, not wanting to derail the thread, just wanting to say that the hatred of Celia was not shared by all.The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.
Avatar by Rich Burlew: The Giant Stuck It To Me!
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2013-04-09, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2013-04-09, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Not your fault.
There are lots of people who hold women to higher standards than men, and thus despise female characters for things for which they wouldn't despise male characters (as much).
It's not that you've written her wrong, it's just that a real woman who behaves like her - which is entirely possible - would be hated just as much, and called "hysterical" and whatever, while a man probably would get away with it better. People wouldn't like him, but they wouldn't make sexist implications about why he is that way.
You only need to worry about not portraying female characters realistically when people call you sexist. If they just unreflectedly hate the character, they're probably just sexist themselves.
@SowZ: Woman are 50% of the population. It is impossible for a man to not know any women - unless his mother died early and he was raised in a monastery- while it is possible to not know any gay people very good (or not know any gay people you know are gay).
Also, I imagine it's easier to ask mommy about what it's like to be a woman and how that would affect your behaviour as a lawful stupid paladin than it is to ask a friend about her or his sexuality.Last edited by Themrys; 2013-04-09 at 01:32 PM.
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2013-04-09, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
True, but my point is, that they can't ignore it that easily. If they didn't lie to me about their reactions, then it is at least a conscious effort for them. Not that I plan to accomodate their sensitivities in this area, but I can see why they have difficulties.
I wholeheartedly agree.
You could? I would have said that for most straight people habituation has reduced reactions to heterosexual narration that doesn't meet their preferences, to something close to 'meh?' But okay, thank you for correcting this.
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2013-04-09, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
It was very time-consuming to produce without the proper tools, since I didn't own a tablet at the time. I kept falling behind, and then the newsletter that it appeared in was canceled. I decided to let it go and focus on OOTS.
No reason beyond the fact that I didn't notice I had done it. I'm writing in one window and finishing the comic in another, so forgive me the lack of parallelism. I should have said "males," not "men," anyway, since three of the male characters were in their late teens.*
*All except for the aforementioned wheelchair-bound player, who I had plans to reveal was an Afghanistan vet going back to college to get his degree...I always wondered what WOTC would have said about that.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-04-09, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Mladenovac, Serbia
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Making female characters likable to majority is hard, especially since there is lot of hypocrisy with what's acceptable and what's not for male and female characters.
For example:
Breaking Bad - Compare Skyler and Walt. Everyone hates Skyler, although Walt is a drug dealer, psychopath and control freak who poisoned (at least it's heavily implied) a child to manipulate his partner into helping his rival. Whatever flaws Skyler has, Walt is that up to eleven. And everyone likes him!
Berserk - There's a not so small group of fans who are justifying actions of a guy who sold souls of his whole regiment to become a demon, leaving only 3 survivors. He also raped the only female character to the point of insanity, which a lot of people hate. Her only flaws are the she is acting tough, and is a little bit of a alpha bitch (well, was before she went insane), but she is not that bad, nor is she a Mary Sue.
And worst of all, those people also claim she liked being raped!Kickass avatar made by Kymme
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2013-04-09, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
To the two or three people making biologically deterministic arguments:
Let's take it to PMs and keep it away from the thread.
Yeah, this is what I've been saying from the start too. Marginalised groups (or anything that deviates from what is considered the "default" of society) are constantly demanded a reason to exist.
The thing is, while I understand the Catch-22 of your situation, it's also a Catch-22 for us. We have to accept erasure ("because at least we weren't awful stereotypes") or poor representations ("because at least we are shown to exist"), and we still have to be exceedingly mindful of whatever criticism we make, or else we're accused of being perpetually unhappy, hypersensitive and overreacting, which leads most of us to bite our tongues and make do with the table scraps we get thrown our way.
And whenever we raise the issue of representation, the flamestorms start a-brewin', most of it coming from privileged groups who don't understand what I explained in the paragraph above, and who think we want to censure and content-control.
It's kind of tricky to educate writers and bring our hopes and dreams to them under that climate. It's like trying to give a stranger your baby, but before doing so, you have to navigate a minefield.
Also, I fully agree with Themrys, Miko and Celia were not your fault. They were entirely the result of a fanbase who holds women to much higher standards than others and (this is important) has an incredible reluctance to see women as proper antagonists. You lampshaded this very thing with the MitD after Tsukiko's death. Nobody cared about her. She was an antagonist in name only. Miko and Celia? They weren't considered antagonists (and I use antagonist to mean "forces that oppose the protagonists", not "villains").
Celia took so much hatred because her actions were perceived as unnecessary. She wasn't seen as a force of antagonism the way Kubota or Tarquin were, she was seen as a constant obstacle that got Haley into trouble (despite the fact that Belkar has done far, far, far worse, and used to be one of the main antagonistic forces in the comic before he had his fake character development. Or Elan, who was a very close match for Celia's "airheaded decision-making"), and people wanted her out of the narrative because they refused to see her as a viable antagonistic force. She was not given the respect that a man in her role would have garnered.
Miko? This one doesn't have as much sexism as Celia's. Here the main "problem" is that you dared to question the sanctity of the paladin. You dared to portray a paladin going stone-cold mad and subsequently Falling, in the world of D&D. You touched a lot of nerves with that, and I think it was absolutely awesome. I firmly believe that if Miko had been a man, you would have had at least 50% of the trouble you had with her, if not 70% or so. The rest is most definitely sexism, for most of the same reasons cited above with Celia.
Hey. Hi.
Since we are all being polite in this thread, minding our words and arguments and whatnot, could I ask you to please stop making the argument that some marginalised groups innately or naturally deserve more inclusion or representation than others? Because you're repeatedly coming off as somewhat homophobic. I am as much of a supporter of women being represented and empowered in the media as you, and yet I somehow manage to make my arguments without the implications you repeatedly make.
Thanks.
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2013-04-09, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Well, thanks for making the effort anyway. I want to assure you that any and all of my explanations on this thread are intended as after-the-fact analysis of my previous decisions, not as excuses. I'm not saying in any way that any of my decisions have been correct, merely that I can track why I made them at the time.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-04-09, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Oh, no, not you! Trust me, you're leagues and miles above your colleagues. Just, you know, in general. What I meant was, don't take it personally if some of us have negative reactions (like that fan you met at the con, the one who brought up the Belt thing), because we take a lot of flak for voicing our opinions, no matter how demurely and politely (though most of the time from rabid fanbases, not from creators), and that really tends to wear on you after a while.
I myself once sent an email to a blog I deeply admired, to attempt to gain some insight/resolve some questions on racial matters for a fantasy novel I was writing, but apparently my email, no matter how politely and respectfully phrased, was too hopeless for the blog authors to reply.
We just gotta remember that people have baggage and they don't mean to lash out at you, specifically. Maybe the fan you met at the con wasn't taking issue with you, maybe it was a cummulation of seeing, time and again, their transexuality being used for cheap (and sometimes offensive) comedy, without balancing that with a serious and kind representation.
I have no issue with the decisions you've made, I don't hold you responsible for "not doing enough" because I don't have any right to do that. On the contrary, I appreciate the good things you did do. Just wanted to make sure you didn't take away a purely negative impression from this thread, and instead took away positive stuff.
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2013-04-09, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Miko was bossy in a very superior manner, as was Celia. That's why they weren't liked. The naive, bossy woman is a bit of a negative female sterotype, and Celia and Miko fit that pretty well. Haley is neither naive, nor particularly bossy. No minor female character (as far as I'm aware) reinforced this sterotype, but two of major three female characters did to some degree. This doesn't mean the comic is sexist (because it's mostly only Miko and Celia that exhibit these traits), but they both needed to provide conflict, and they were both female, so that's apparently how that came about.
This kind of attitude generally comes from feeling morally superior. Women are less inclined to arrogance than men, so this sterotype probably isn't caused by adult women. However, young girls seem to test out bossiness (possibly emulating their mothers), and that's probably where this sterotype comes from. Many people may have experienced a bossy sister, or bossy girl in elementary school, and that would explain the strong negative reaction to it.Last edited by WoLong; 2013-04-09 at 02:29 PM.
Never to command the army again...oh distant azure heaven, what could be more sad? - Zhuge Liang
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2013-04-09, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Well, I said I theoretically could, not that I feel any desire to do so. As a woman, I'm so often required to put myself in the shoes of a heterosexual man that I'm used to it. Hopefully I wouldn't consider female bodies disgusting even if this wasn't the case, but I cannot know that.
Men often actually DO call most depictions of sexy men "homoerotic" even if there is just one man on the picture. They don't even assume that the viewer could be a woman.
@Shadowknight12:
I refuse to share the opinion that women are a minority. It just is not the case, even though male-dominated media make it seem so.
And I hate it when someone talks about "women and other minorities"
It's not the same thing.
@WoLong:
Bossy ... yes, that makes sense. She doesn't behave as is expected from a woman.
Of course one might solve the problem by having only good, intelligent, capable female characters, but that would reinforce the double standard, so I don't think it would be a good solution.
I'm quite happy that the Giant doesn't seem to hate Miko nearly as much as the readers do.Last edited by Themrys; 2013-04-09 at 02:20 PM.
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2013-04-09, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-09, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.
Avatar by Rich Burlew: The Giant Stuck It To Me!
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2013-04-09, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Oh, I know. It's something I try to deconstruct in myself as much as possible. There's a lot of problematic stuff that society perpetuates and it's something a try to be aware of in myself as much.
Oh, could you explain a bit more? (I do agree that lumping all minorities like that together isn't really productive since the issues they face vary quite a bit.)
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2013-04-09, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The proper term is marginalised group. I don't think I have ever used the word minority in this whole thread (and if I have, I apologise. Point out the post to me and I will rectify that immediately). A marginalised group need not be a minority. Women are marginalised in society by the patriarchy. That makes them a marginalised group, just like racial, ethnic and LGBTQ+ minorities.
Your repeated assertions that "it's completely illogical for a writer to underrepresent women because they make up 50% of the population", while implying that it's not as bad if other marginalised groups get underrepresented because they're minorities, is deeply offensive. We're all in this together. Feminism is one of the major proponents of racial activism and LGBTQ+ activism, and the same goes for the other two groups towards feminism and each other.
I would really appreciate it if you could make your arguments in favour of women being represented, empowered and included, without throwing others under the bus in the process. Thank you.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2013-04-09 at 02:35 PM.
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2013-04-09, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Last edited by WoLong; 2013-04-09 at 02:32 PM.
Never to command the army again...oh distant azure heaven, what could be more sad? - Zhuge Liang
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2013-04-09, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Around
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-09, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
While some people disliked both Miko & Celia, I vaguely recall there being people who were far more sympathetic toward one or the other.
Me, for example (toward Celia, in this case).
And just because a character's unsympathetic to some- doesn't mean they were badly written- I thought Miko was very well written.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2013-04-09, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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2013-04-09, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
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2013-04-09, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
If you'll agree not to argue that biology is irrelevant, by all means. But you can't invoke statement X to support your position and then shunt away refutations to X as being off-topic.
...The rest is most definitely sexism, for most of the same reasons cited above with Celia.
Well, not universally despised. If they had been, those threads would have been a lot shorter.
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2013-04-09, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Could I get a general description of his reaction? Or the dialogue? Not enough to break the board rules, of course, but just enough to get a gist of the idea? I am very interested in this, and I admit I've always had a soft spot for Hinjo (and Argent), so I'd be absolutely thrilled if there was something that at least vaguely supported my fanboyish headcanon on him.
Take it to PMs.
Thank you.
There's an instance of that, obviously, but Elan and Belkar have been strong antagonistic forces for the rest of the OotS, and we've also seen V flying off her rocker and antagonising Durkon and Elan during the whole Kubotagate affair (or Elan and Durkon antagonising V, depending on what side you take).
And somehow I doubt that sort of thing racked up much racket.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2013-04-09 at 03:42 PM.