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2017-03-30, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
Full disclosure: I'm not particularly clever. Sometimes I need things meticulously spelled out to me.
In a now defunct campaign, one of our allies (a tiefling warlock) used Minor Illusion to make an image of the wall behind him in front of him to create an "invisibility" effect. At the time I was like "how would that work?" but the DM ok'ed it and it didn't matter much to me, he's an ally lol.
But now there's a thread about it, and I saw it come up in the cantrip god thread.
So here's the hangup that I'm not convinced I'm understanding properly.
Won't you have to pick a point of perspective to make this trick work? Like, if you are in a room and make the image of the wall behind you, *which* "image" of the wall are you making? Standing directly in front of it? Standing off to the side as you enter the room? Standing at the height of a kobold? A gnoll? A minotaur? Approaching from the left or the right?
How do you determine what the image is supposed to look like to the person that will be looking at you? The image won't move as they approach, or turn their head, or whatever, so the perspective will be off.
Are we assuming that someone walks within line of sight, but doesn't look at you directly until they are perfectly in front of you for the image to line up properly with the rest of the wall from their perspective? Then they blink slowly and turn away while their eyes are closed? What am I missing?Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-30, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-30, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
I agree with you 100%. Perspective matters. The illusion would be pretty obvious.
The idea that it can be used to make a cube to effectively appear invisible from every side is even more ridiculous. And since the caster is supposedly creating this illusion, the ability to do so, even assuming that mental artistic ability is 100% perfect, is entirely unbelievable. I wouldn't allow it.
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2017-03-30, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
DM fiat can do anything, but as far as I'm concerned, if an object (oe effect that normally couldn't) passes through the illusion, that counts as physical interaction- anything that sees that happen isn't affected by the illusion anymore. Basically, 1 free hide if you can use it to ambush enemies, otherwise no.
Spoiler: bad tactics
I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet
"What are you smiling about?" it says
"hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"
the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*
"Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."
*barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*
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2017-03-30, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-30, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
For how this works, check out Ghost Blind, you can see pictures and videos of it in action. Basically you create an illusion of a mirror, which shows the viewer a random segment of the opposite wall, or the floor or similar. So long as the wall is amorphous, it is bloody hard to see, especially since the mirror can be curved and will be dirt and dent free. That said, positioning is key, and if the floor is a very different material than the walls, it is almost impossible to use (could maybe do it in a corner).
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2017-03-30, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
You know those foil cards that have different images with different perspectives? Could you do that with an illusion without technically changing it or it being preprogrammed? I ask because that just popped in my mind, not because I want to game the system. I just want some insight.
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2017-03-30, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
I believe the character is sitting or squatting down in their square, and makes an illusion of a 5' section of the wall behind them. So just imagine like a cardboard cutout that looks exactly like the wall behind them and is positioned in front of them. Am I misunderstanding your question?
Originally Posted by Foxhound438
Originally Posted by BurgerBeast
EDIT:
Originally Posted by lperkins2
An illusion won't do that. That's sort of the issue I'm having a problem with.
So long as the wall is amorphous, it is bloody hard to see, especially since the mirror can be curved and will be dirt and dent free. That said, positioning is key, and if the floor is a very different material than the walls, it is almost impossible to use (could maybe do it in a corner).
Quick google search --> dungeon wall
All those lines will do you in I think, unless the viewer is pretty far off and not really paying attention. I don't know...Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-03-30 at 09:09 PM.
Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-30, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
The idea I would use is to create an illusion of a mirror, it will fail if they walk close enough, since they will see themselves, but tucked into a corner, at a fair distance, it works really well.
The lines don't matter as much as you might think, since your eyes track to familiar shapes, and a mistake in the wall doesn't really qualify. Certainly if the guards are alert, it will stand out. Also is more likely to work outside or in a cave than in a proper dungeon.
Mechanically, I would let it grant concealment sufficient to attempt to hide, possibly with advantage on the hide check if the conditions are good enough. I wouldn't treat it as equivalent to a stationary invisibility spell.
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2017-03-30, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
Well, that depends on your opinion of how illusions interact with light, and that's a whole nother can of worms. For the sake of discussion, let's pretend you're in the camp that would allow an illusionary mirror to reflect like a normal one. Some of us are in those campaigns, and we can use this spell to great effect.
One thing I always used it for was creating the minor illusion of a dresser or cupboard and crouching inside it. You have to do it when no-one's watching you, obviously, but it works pretty well if you have some time to prepare.
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2017-03-30, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
Yeah, based on this and Potato_Priest's post, I can see where we'll differ on this.
I don't think an image of a mirror will show reflections. In the same way you would walk in front of a picture (which is just an image) of a mirror and not see your reflection, so too would a minor illusion (which is just an image) of a mirror not show your reflection.
I wouldn't even have thought that people are making reflective surfaces with this cantrip. I thought the trick was to make an image of the area behind you, not make an actual mirror.
The lines don't matter as much as you might think, since your eyes track to familiar shapes, and a mistake in the wall doesn't really qualify. Certainly if the guards are alert, it will stand out. Also is more likely to work outside or in a cave than in a proper dungeon.
Mechanically, I would let it grant concealment sufficient to attempt to hide, possibly with advantage on the hide check if the conditions are good enough. I wouldn't treat it as equivalent to a stationary invisibility spell.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-30, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
Another point of contention: "things can pass through it"
Therefore, since Light is a physical thing it passes through it. So
A) Creating a functional Mirror is impossible. It cannot reflect light because the light would pass through it.
B) Your Shadows would fall through any part of the illusion, meaning that not only does the "invisibility" trick only work at specific angles, but you must also have sufficient space to avoid getting caught by shadows.
While not exactly RAW, I'm almost certain that RAI you can't do this trick. The listed examples are all simple, like a stool or muddy footprints. Something that generally has one texture to it and a relatively orderly shape. If Minor Illusion can't recreate atmospheric effects via Fog or Dense Foliage then I'm going to say that attempting to perfectly mirror the wall behind you at 5 different angles while texturing it like a hologram card to achieve multiple illusions from multiple angles is an EXTREME case of Munchkinery and would likely earn you an immediate eviction from my table.
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2017-03-30, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-30, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
The illusion fills a 5ft cube. That doesn't mean it's a duodimensional image. It can have depth.
Which means that you could create the illusion of a barrel around you, visible as any barrel, and three dimensional. Or a wall, like the one you're against,while you flatten yourself against the real one. Sure, if someone gets close enough they'll see the wall is about three feet from where it should be...
But such an illusion could fool anyone at only a slight remove, so long as it is subtly curved just enough for your body.
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2017-03-31, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
In my opinion, yes, even with the keen mind feat. I just think it is that hard to do.
I think it is theoretically possible, but in my mind the wizard must have some way of imagining it, and the amount of detail and precision involved makes it unfeasible, in my opinion.
I think the idea that illusions interact with light is just way too full of implications that cause way too many potential and unpredictable problems.
I agree with you but was surprised to encounter a wide range of opinions on this and also on the implications that arise when one person interacts with an illusion.
Which means that you could create the illusion of a barrel around you, visible as any barrel, and three dimensional. Or a wall, like the one you're against,while you flatten yourself against the real one. Sure, if someone gets close enough they'll see the wall is about three feet from where it should be...
But such an illusion could fool anyone at only a slight remove, so long as it is subtly curved just enough for your body.
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2017-03-31, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
I'm not sure that light in D&D 5e is the same thing as light in our own universe, and probably doesn't count as a "thing".
The following is an argument that could be based off assuming that light in D&D and light in the real world are the same thing.
Spoiler: Realistic light and illusionsIf light can't reflect off an illusion, how would you be able to see it?
If an illusion is able to interact with light then illusions would cast shadows and be able to have other objects project shadows onto them, and an illusion could reflect light, making it visible.
If an illusion totally didn't interact with light, it would be invisible unless it was a mental projection, because ambient light would pass through it rather than reflecting off of it.
If an illusion doesn't interact with light at all, and is just a mental projection, then you would be able to see it in a completely dark room (and maybe even with your eyes closed), which doesn't seem right, and could also lead to ridiculous munchkinery where people could see illusions regardless of physical barriers (IE using it as a signal in darkness or a fog cloud)
In essence, because there aren't real illusion spells, it is impossible to predict how real world light would interact with them. Using the real-world definition of light as an "object" doesn't necessarily apply to D&D.
It's problematic to either say that it does or say that it doesn't. If you're in the former camp, characters become capable of making illusionary telescopes and doing completely ridiculous things with mere cantrips. If you're in the latter camp, you'd see illusions reduced to a completely meaningless entertainment trick that could never fool anyone due to their simplicity.
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2017-03-31, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
I can get behind this.
The following is an argument that could be based off assuming that light in D&D and light in the real world are the same thing.
Spoiler: Realistic light and illusionsIf light can't reflect off an illusion, how would you be able to see it?
If an illusion is able to interact with light then illusions would cast shadows and be able to have other objects project shadows onto them, and an illusion could reflect light, making it visible.
If an illusion totally didn't interact with light, it would be invisible unless it was a mental projection, because ambient light would pass through it rather than reflecting off of it.
If an illusion doesn't interact with light at all, and is just a mental projection, then you would be able to see it in a completely dark room (and maybe even with your eyes closed), which doesn't seem right, and could also lead to ridiculous munchkinery where people could see illusions regardless of physical barriers (IE using it as a signal in darkness or a fog cloud)
In essence, because there aren't real illusion spells, it is impossible to predict how real world light would interact with them. Using the real-world definition of light as an "object" doesn't necessarily apply to D&D.
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2017-03-31, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
What if it were a combination? The magic that triggers the mental projection interacts with light in unusual ways.
Interesting. Can you elaborate on how 3D holograms work, when applied to the kind of questions people are asking about D&D illusions?Last edited by LudicSavant; 2017-03-31 at 12:29 AM.
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones
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2017-03-31, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-31, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
The classic example for doing this is making a dead end a few feet shorter. The guards are unlikely to more than glance down the path, and depth perception past about 30' gets really hard, if they even remember where the edge of the wall is supposed to be. Also, remember that the illusion can be 5' tall by 7' wide, or 7'wide by 5' tall (opposite seams of a 5' cube are 7' apart, opposite corners are 8.6' apart, but that only gets you a line). 7' tall is often enough to go floor to ceiling (or close enough to the ceiling) in old buildings.
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2017-03-31, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
Hiding behind or even within an illusory barrel or dresser or other item is fine to me. That makes sense and seems well within the scope of the power.
I agree with BurgerBeast that this seems pretty complicated to pull off at-will in any location. But then, wizards do have high intelligence scores, so I don't know. It certainly strikes me as something more involved than the proponents are letting on.
But the mirror... I just don't see it. I don't even think it's a question of whether illusions reflect light. Here...
Wave your hand in front of that mirror and tell me if you see your reflection.
An image of a mirror does not have the same reflective properties of an actual mirror. Yeah, you can see it, just like you can see the mirror I posted above. But you can't see your reflection, because it isn't an actual mirror, just an image of one. Minor Illusion creates images, and those images do not behave like the real objects.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-31, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
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2017-03-31, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
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2017-03-31, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
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2017-03-31, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
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2017-03-31, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
I would say that you can make a mirror. And that light can interact with an illusion.
Otherwise they would be completely useless. Especially if it was a 3D hologram.
3D Holograms are constructs of light, which the spell explicitly does not create. They put light into the area around them, dim as that light may be. There's also the "Not being able to see it" thing.
As to the image: Creating an image on a computer screen and creating an "Image" in an illusion are two separate things. If the object responds realistically to light (Has a shadow, reflects light, etc) you're bouncing light off the object. A polished metal surface, glass, or even water shows reflections in reality.
The Image of the Mirror in the picture, above, can't interact with the light around it to create shadows because it is a 2d image made out of light. It can only ever be light projected from a screen, not a real illusion. Similarly, a painting or a picture taken with a camera is not an illusion, it's a picture.
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2017-03-31, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
The "it must or it's useless" argument is a false dichotomy I think.
You are not creating a reflective surface, like polished metal. You are creating an illusion of one. An image. You have to make the reflection yourself when you craft it, because it doesn't actually have a polished surface to be reflective.
If you want to make an image of a matte smoking pipe, you make it. If you want to make an image of a shiny smoking pipe, you have to make it with the reflections of light on it, because just making the illusion of a polished wood smoking pipe and holding it underneath an actual light source won't do the trick.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-31, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
We had similar questions, I was playing a halfling with the cantrip, and we were trying to set up an ambush. We discussed the mirror thing, but it got too confusing, so I just picked an object that wouldn't be out of place. The barrel already mentioned is a decent example. We were next to a warehouse, so I just used a box. The point of it was not to be invisible, but unless they touch the box, it breaks line of sight, therefore can hide. Even once combat started, i stayed at range using Chill Touch. If though I wasn't hidden anymore, they still couldn't see me. So I'd get advantage on them, and even though they new which square I was in, they'd get disadvantage on me. Not invisibility, but still pretty cool for a cantrip - assuming we ruled it all correctly.
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2017-03-31, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help me understand this Minor Illusion "Inviisibility" trick!
That's kind of the point.
Does the illusion have light bouncing off of it or does the light go through it?
If the light goes through the illusion, the illusion has no shadow. If it has no shadow it's pretty much useless because any light that falls on it will show it to be an illusion. If light passes through it, then there's only one possible angle you could -maybe- make the illusion look realistic from and an inch to the left or the right and it fails.
If light does bounce off the illusion, then mirrors and polished wood are totally possible.
It's ultimately a question of semantics. Did the developers mean an image in the sense of a duodimensional picture wherein you're seeing a representation of an object with no functional interaction with reality whatsoever... or did they mean image in the sense that you're only creating the visual component of a physical object that has no real physicality?
If the former, then you're right. If the latter, then I'm right.
And, ultimately, there's no way to further this discussion without asking Crawford and Mearls. Fortunately, someone did.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/11/...th-reflection/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/15/...usion-cantrip/
The image is static. It does not interact with light sources or light bouncing off of it. It casts no shadow of it's own, and ostensibly anyone hiding behind or within such an illusion would cast a shadow that passes through it without issue.
Annnnnd I'll never run it that way because it's bad. But RAI you were right.
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2017-03-31, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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