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Thread: Erfworld 75, page 69
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2007-08-30, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Whatever happens, I bet Leeroy Jenkins bites it.
...again.
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2007-08-30, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-30, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Well, it's hard to say just HOW powerful they are. They're attacking the weakest stack first, and pretty much taking out only 1 at a time. It IS very flashy, though.
It is OK to feel bad for Stanley right? I mean, Stanley IS still the bad guy, isn't he?
What about Parson? I feel bad for Parson.
He may of initially wanted to get away from his life on Earth, just wanting to play his games, but now he's probably realizing just how good he had it, sitting on his beanbag chair, chowing down fast food, and driving a clunker of a car.
If he gets back to Earth, I suppose this would give HIM a good kick in the butt to get his life back into shape...May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.
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2007-08-30, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Actually, I just remembered something about most of these old turn-based strategy games that may be about to kick in. As impressive as the Archons opening moves are, typically how they worked was the Attacker usually got their attacks in first then the remaining Defenders got a turn to swing back, and just taking out 3 (very wounded) dragons isn't gonna dent the return firepower back at them that much. The blonde Archon for sure is gonna be getting bubble gum in her hair.
These kind of battles usually took a few attack cycles to resolve. It was an impressive opener, but I think the fireworks have only just started. Victory for Jillian and the Archons (rock band?) isn't assured by a longshot yet.
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2007-08-30, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
My only thought on the power of "dwagons" is that from the old (or rather, awesome) Warlords 3 game, dragons were indeed quite tough, however, there were many units from many factions that could go toe to toe with em without being TOO outclassed. Heroes were well above dragon level late game, but most of them were just a little ahead in terms of power.
Homebrew:The Reaper-The Wild MageAvatar by Zarah
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2007-08-30, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
There's also the gwiffons and Jillian. Each of them should be able to take out a seriously wounded dwagon with one hit, tilting the firepower ratio a bit further in their favor.
That said, the fact that none of them can (as far as we know) attack more than one dwagon at a time is a major disadvantage in this situation, where lots of little attacks would be more useful than a few big ones.
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2007-08-31, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
who bets next panel is stanley ranting again.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2007-08-31, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Well, yes—the old 61% thing. Let's take a look at the situation at the start of the fight.
Team Stanley: 19 wounded Dwagons + 3 uncroaked warlords
Team Ansom: Jillian + 5 Gwiffons + 3 Archons
Now make a lot of simple (and mostly inaccurate, but not unreasonable) assumptions:
- There are combat rounds in which the attackers make first strike, then the surviving defenders make theirs.
- Everyone can reach everyone else.
- A strike can be made against any chosen undefended target if a warlord is present, but is made against a random target otherwise. Defended targets (warlords) can be attacked only if the defenders are first brought down.
- One strike per unit per round.
- Any member of Team Ansom is strong enough to croak a wounded dwagon or uncroaked warlord in a single round.
- Wounded dwagons attack at full strength.
- An uncroaked warlord's attack is equivalent to a dwagon.
- Archons and Jillians have lots of HPs—let's say enough to withstand 3 dwagon attacks. (Archons probably have magic defenses, and Jillian's a barbarian.) Unwounded gwiffons have a 50% chance of surviving a single dwagon attack.
- Archons, being mercenaries and having no cause save their retirement accounts, will flee the battlefield before being croaked.
Given all this, the rounds of combat might go like this:
- Archons nuke 3 Dwagons. Gwiffons chomp 5 more. Jillian re-croaks a Warlord. Team Stanley is now down to 8 dwagons and 2 warlords.
- Dwagons chomp 3 gwiffons and take a bite out of each of the Archons. Jillian is unhurt, being a defended warlord. Team Ansom is now down to 2 gwiffons, 3 Archons at 2/3 HP, and Jillian.
- Archons nuke 3 more Dwagons. Gwiffons chomp 2 more. Jillian re-croaks a warlord. Team Stanley now has 3 dwagons and 1 warlord.
- Dwagons take out 1 gwiffon and take bites out of 2 Archons and Jillian. Team Ansom now has 1 gwiffon, 1 Archon at 2/3 HP, 2 Archons at 1/3 HP, and Jillian at 2/3 HP.
The Archons now have to make a decision: can they croak enough of what's left of Stanley's forces to avoid losing one or two of their own? Going strictly by the assumptions I've set up, the answer is yes. But it should be obvious that it only takes a small change in the assumptions, or some not very large random factors, to shift the outcome in Stanley's favour.
Even with my grossly oversimplified combat and arbitrary assumptions, that 61% doesn't sound too far off the mark.
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2007-08-31, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Don't forget... the more terrible Parson's situation looks, the more amazing he gets to look when he overcomes it. Beating Ansom after losing this many dragons would look much more impressive than just popping onto the scene, coming up with a single strategy, and winning the game.
Let's see. In order to gain control of GK, he had to commit regicide. To search for the rest of the Arkentools, he attacked a lot of nations. He also took out the Milquetoast Tribe. Yeah, he's not a good guy.
Notice that the thing Ansom seems to hold most against Stanley is that he's "not noble". Not that he's a murderer, not that he destroyed this or that or whatever, but because he wasn't noble when he was doing it. Depending on how you interpret the line, it could mean he hates Stanley for lacking noble blood, or for stabbing his overlord in the back instead of killing people in a "fair fight" like everyone else... but I think there's an unwritten assumption that, in the long run, every important faction is out to "win the game". Some might want to use diplomacy for a while first, but it's not entirely fair to say that that alone makes Stanley the "evil side."
He's just the guy who attacked first. It might not have been smart (often doing that in a strategy game causes everyone else to crush you), but--in a strategy-game environment like Erfworld's--it certainly doesn't make him evil. It just means he devoted less time to diplomacy and upgrading than Jetstone did.Last edited by Aquillion; 2007-08-31 at 02:11 AM.
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2007-08-31, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
I suspect that Jillian IS still acting under her compulsion from Wanda. (also, I don't think it's actually a spell, I think Wanda just couched it in that terminology because Stanley's too stoopid to understand it otherwise.)
Yes, Jilly's stack is wiping out some dwagons, but if I am understanding the rules of combat properly, a unit can move up to its maximum allotment, and attack once (in whatever order you like -- including Parson's move/attack/move sequence). So I suspect Jillian just wasted three heavy-hitting Archon spells on almost-dead dwagons, preventing them from attacking more until it's their turn again. By that point, the dwagons will have repopped and will again be at full HPs, and will have their chance to OMGWTFBBQ some Archons. She isn't directly harming Wanda, because it's three dwagons out of what.. thirty? It does benefit Ansom, because she IS killing off enemy units (just not enough of them.) In fact.. you could almost justify killing off the Archons as helping your Warlord, because they're apparently ungodly-expensive.
Of course, it's 430am, so maybe I'm just delirious.
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2007-08-31, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
You can attack multiple times, or they could not have killed so much siege last time. And when they killed the bat...
The fact that the archons are so powerful is not a suprise in this comic, it was revealed that they had 61% chance of wiping out the whole stack before. The point is Ansom's whole plan gets stupider and stupider given how overpowered they are.
There seems to be a lack of internal consistency in the writing. Parson comes up with a "genius" plan, Ansom falls badly into a horrific trap. Then the whole thing is solved as units we thought were maybe equil to 1 or 2 dwagons are far far more powerful than that. Ansom was struggling with killing the wounded dwagon stack (and doing complicated things to do it) when all he had to do was bring in the archons.
Basically if Ansom was convinced that the wounded stack was in the fort he should have brought jillian et. al. back, and just smashed the fort into tiny pieces killing the wounded dwagons and the healthy ones at the same time. As the archons are *that* powerful he had the manpower and ability to do it.
Also Parson should know how powerful the archon stack is, and if possible placed the wounded dwagon stack somewhere they could not reach. Placing the wounded dwagon stack on the direct path between ansom and where the archons started with is just mad. Yet he is supposed to be a brilliant wargamer.
"Brilliant" plan countered with dumb luck and overpowered units is not good story telling. I am interested in seeing how it ends, but to enjoy the story I have to ignore the plot holes and I don't like doing that.
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2007-08-31, 05:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
that is only one way of perceiving the situation.
Ansom was sure his forest units can get the job done therefore he kept the archons as backup. If he found the donut hole full of dwagon jelly, I'm sure he would have asked Jillian & Co to join for the party.
It can be easily argued that if you have limited intel, it is an valid option to keep your fastest and most poweerful units in reserve sothat if you stumble upon some unexpected problem you still have something to counter them with. Which is something that actually happened.
Parson's plan was as good as possible and given little time he had, risky - the option was to do nothing. Do not forget that Parson is new to Erfworld while Ansom on the other hand is a veteran of many battles, created to be a prince/king and who has at least one capable advisor. Besides, there exist very few plans that survive the first contact with the enemy.Orc Girl Avatar by Yeril !
Irideen Yoannaell,woodelf ranger Into the Depths of the Earth (Dawnhorn) character sheet
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2007-08-31, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Sure, that's expected, but there's a lot of folks saying this is more "interesting", and I just don't see that.
Simply put, we were set up to expect Ansom to win, so why is it "interesting" to see him win?
But if you want some reasons why having Ansom win in this way be interesting, here's some suggestions:
- it drastically forces a conflict between Wanda (who failed to deliver on her promise) and Stanley. (Will Stanley move to disband her? Will Wanda move to assassinate Stanley?)
- it drastically provides a reason for Stanley to disband Parson, other than his previous mere "annoyance" at the things Parson didn't know. (How will Parson react to such an eventuality? Will it prove that Stanley doesn't have the ability to disband Parson? If so, how Parson's relationship with Stanley change)
- If Ansom conquers Gobwin Knob and discovers Parson, how will Ansom treat Parson? How will Parson deal with no longer having an explicitly defined purpose in Erfworld. How will Wanda behave as a captive or a fugitive?
Are these points of interest enough to you for starters? As opposed to e.g. Parson winning battle after battle and gaining back city after city, continue adinfinitum until Stanley has conquered the world?
FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! Some people seem to be treating the whole concept of "interesting storytelling" as choosing between the most unlikely option between "Ansom wins" and "Ansom loses", as if "interest" and "improbability" are synonymous, rather than thinking about the doors each option opens.
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2007-08-31, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Isn't it horribly rude to assume that the writers are gonna deus-ex-machina something, all because you assumed that Parson must win?
Perhaps you should simply reconsider your ASSumptions, instead of bashing writers because they did something unexpected.
(I'm assuming that Parson doesn't just ignominously lose this campaign, because, well, what would be the point of that?)
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2007-08-31, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
The point is that Ansom is convinced the opponents leadership is terrible. He is 100% convinced that the wounded dwagons were in the middle. By using up all his move on the forest units to go around the outside he gave up the opportunity to kill the unwounded dwagons as well as the wounded ones.
It can be easily argued that if you have limited intel, it is an valid option to keep your fastest and most poweerful units in reserve sothat if you stumble upon some unexpected problem you still have something to counter them with. Which is something that actually happened.
Parson's plan was as good as possible and given little time he had, risky - the option was to do nothing. Do not forget that Parson is new to Erfworld while Ansom on the other hand is a veteran of many battles, created to be a prince/king and who has at least one capable advisor. Besides, there exist very few plans that survive the first contact with the enemy.
The fact that they should have been found by Vinny's bats if they had been used intelligantly also annoys me. There was a decent chance the dwagons would not be veiled, so the bats should have been used to at least look for them, I suppose you could say they were being held in reserve for the escape, but still...
Ansom has not done ANYTHING smart at all to counter this, yet is on the face of it going to get a major victory, with a load of dead dwagons and warlords.
As Jillian and co as well as Ansom have some move left a chunk of the b dwagons should also get croaked, but I doubt that will happen either.
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2007-08-31, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
If it's not actually a spell, what was Wanda doing at the end of page 30, and what's with the sparklies around Jillian's head on page 36?
That said, I think that there are aspects to Wanda's influence (i.e. the mundane psychological effects of conditioning Jillian to cultivate and exploit a submissive streak, the "Stockholm Syndrome" effect) that aren't going to just vanish with the breaking of the spell.
Yes, Jilly's stack is wiping out some dwagons, but if I am understanding the rules of combat properly, a unit can move up to its maximum allotment, and attack once (in whatever order you like -- including Parson's move/attack/move sequence).
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2007-08-31, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
And they can therefore attack multiple stacks too in one turn, since the siege units were stacked with teddies and marbits, not each other.
In any case, the traditional way of doing it is move onto the hex, 2 sides go to war, one side remains. Ie, keep attacking until one side wins. Warlords will change that but not negate it.
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2007-08-31, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
They did scout using the bat, didn't they, so maybe he is only 99.9% convinced?
As for not punching through the B dwagons front ... I admit I don't understand why he did not do it. There is kinda explanation that he was conserving his forces, well maybe he didn't know how much he needs vs. the hex supposedly filled with a lot of wounded dwagons and wanted to be sure that he can wipe them out. Any bad luck losses vs. healthy stacks could have been disastrous.
The point is that you move your reserve last. So if nothing else pops out of the fog of war that your scouts are lifting you can move them according to plan. Because it is turn based it doesn't matter which of two unit you move first if both will attack together, but if for some prevously unknown reason you choose not to attack (or cannot attack because there is noone to attack) you still have forces which didn't waste their move.Orc Girl Avatar by Yeril !
Irideen Yoannaell,woodelf ranger Into the Depths of the Earth (Dawnhorn) character sheet
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2007-08-31, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Just speculating, but...
Spoilerperhaps now Parson can convince Stanley to meet Charlies price (i.e. pay more than Ansom's side?) The Archons would probably instantly retreat from the battle after a call from Charley. No deux ex machina is necessary. :) The question is, is it possible to take action like this when it's not your turn?
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2007-08-31, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-31, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
...and Parson thought Stanley's side was "the Bad Guys".
Couldn't stop laughing at this one. The Archons are just too cool, taking the enemy down with their PowerPoint übermagic and selling new projects and services even as they do battle. They are obviously really good at this consulting business.
Spoiler
Originally Posted by havoc
Pretty much the only way this can turn out for the better for Parson is that Ansom runs out of schmuckers.
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2007-08-31, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
No, actually Stanley wouldn't have it, not Charley. llink
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2007-08-31, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
In any case, I doubt Stanley can win a bidding war against the Coalition. (Stanley just has a 150K treasury, plus or minus his net cashflow for the past couple turns; the Coalition presumably has the resources of a number of member cities and treasuries.)
Also, it's likely that standard merc contracts can't simply be bought out by the other side once agreed to -- that would make it too risky to hire mercenaries, which would be bad for the business.
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2007-08-31, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
I haven't seen enough evidence to call the Archons overpowered yet. If they are taking out the lake dwagons (which I believe they are) then they're taking out dwagons with just a few hits left on them. It's no big feat to do this, especially given just how badly they're wounded. If they turn out to be attacking the ring dwagons then they're attacking lower level dwagons, and we've seen those fall to single units that aren't considered unbalanced or overpowered (Jillian/Ansom).
Also I wanted to point out something about that percentage everyone is throwing around. Parson stated "This thing says they have a 61% chance of totally wiping us out". That means there is a 39% chance that ALL of Jillian's stack would be wiped out with some of the dwagons (and/or uncroaked warlords) remaining. Given how weak the dwagons are, we have to assume that this chance is mostly coming from the fact that they hit like twains, regardless of how injured. There's no way besides plot optimism that you can interpret this battle as one sided. Team Ansom has the advantage, but it could be very costly* should they decide to sign up for some attrition here.
*especially given Jillian's recent revelation of her love for the Prince. Knowing his feelings are reciprocated (and having confirmation) is going to make him even less likely to risk her.
As always kudos to the artist and author, I continue to enjoy each strip more and more.Something witty this place goes...
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2007-08-31, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Hi guys,
unless my logic is flawed, this is still going entirely according to Parson's plan.
Things seem to be going badly for Parson now because he wasn't informed of the ability to veil units, Wanda's spell on Jillian failed and the archons just got a whole strip devoted to their badassness.
However, Parson should have known from the start that things could turn out this way. He was never relying on Wanda's spell (which he did not understand or even know about while he was brainstorming) or the ability to veil units while thinking up his original plan, which seems to still be going on full force. Jillian overcoming the spell just changes the situation from "better than expected" to "as expected".
Since he was able to view the whole map curteousy of the lookamancers, he knew that Ansom had air units able to reach his wounded Dwagon force on the lake. I have seen no indication that Parson was shocked that his wounded dragons had been found.
Parson seems to have been dismayed to find out that he could have pulled off a perfect plan, veiling his wounded dwagons and thus garunteeing their survival.
However, since we can accept that Parson is a master of games like these, it seems that nothing has actually strayed away from his plan, since Ansom is simply pulling off his best moves available after already falling into Parson's trap.
Ansom's forces are still acting within the boundaries that Parson accounted for and are right where he wants them. The death of the A-dwagons was the worst possible outcome, but while Parson may have been hoping his A-Dwagons would survive, he surely wouldn't have counted on it.
Whatever Parson wanted to happen at the start of his turn, its still happening.
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2007-08-31, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Once again: Rocky lost. Rob and Jamie are clearly fans of popular culture, and Rocky is oft hailed as one of the greatest movies of all time (the Academy certainly thought so), and is, in fact, one of the seminal works on "the ringer" and "calling someone up as a replacement", both of which are heavy themes in Erfworld.
What nonsense. We were set up to expect the "ultimate warlord" *Parson* to win.
If Stanley's dwagons are slaughtered (and losing 22 of his 43 is a slaughter), I find it absolutely inconceivable that Parson would survive. Introducing a new element to fix pre-established problems (Stanley has been demonstrated to be able to order Parson to do things against his will, and because of this we have no reason to doubt that he also has the ability to "disband" Parson - thus destroying him - as was stated) isn't interesting. It is, literally, Deus ex Machina. That's what the phrase means.
We've been given no reason whatsoever to expect Stanley to retain Parson in the face of a horrible defeat, which this is looking to become, and we have been given no reason whatsoever to expect that Parson has a way to avoid destruction if Stanley is displeased. As there has been absolutely no foreshadowing of a solution, it is, in fact, uninteresting to see one come up, because it will have to be complete author fiat. Personally, I'm not interested in author fiat.
Are these points of interest enough to you for starters? As opposed to e.g. Parson winning battle after battle and gaining back city after city, continue adinfinitum until Stanley has conquered the world?
Interesting would have been seeing the many ways Parson would harry Ansom's force as it closed in, knowing he wasn't causing enough casualty to change the outcome, and then seeing the siege, the actual Battle for Gobwin Knob, and the tricks and twists Parson had that ultimately reversed the flow.
Then we can focus on Ansom and his crew, who have finally been defeated and must re-examine their tactics, their assumptions, and their politics, and have them introduce new tactics to counter the "Perfect Warlord" and evolve the conflict into something different altogether.
Parson has not been established as actually being a "Perfect Warlord". He looks like a bit of a chump at the moment, actually. You have to first establish a character's reputation; simply stating it is insufficient (for reference, see Madmartigan in Willow.)
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2007-08-31, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
That's because he isn't a "Perfect Warlord". He knows that he isn't a "Perfect Warlord". He's managed to come up with a plan that gave him enough initial successes to establish himself as a Pretty Good Warlord. If the initial success is now going bubar, well, it's a good thing for him that Wanda's big mouth has probably drawn the blame onto her and away from him.
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2007-08-31, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
I was refuting the point that it was uninteresting to see the "Perfect Warlord" win battle after battle. You're right, he isn't one, and he hasn't been established as one - thus it is not uninteresting to see him win a battle. I find it uninteresting to watch him lose his first battle, which is he currently doing, especially because of the pitiful situation he's started in - one in which a single defeat means absolute destruction.
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2007-08-31, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-31, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 75, page 69
Deus Ex Machina is an objective phrase open to the interpretation of the reader. Often times it is overabused/confused/overlapped with timed plot revelation as well as justifiable story twists. If you subscribe to the true message of the phrase the solution should be godlike, contrived, and questionable in authenticity. Revealing a game mechanic, personality trait, or interaction that meshes with established themes does not necessarily constitute a Deus Ex Machina.
It has only been stated factually so far that Parson's existance would end if he refused an order from Stanley. Stanley threatens that he can "end Parson with a thought", but that doesn't serve to prove that disbanding is equivalent to death. It does prove that being disbanded by your dwagon-mounted-overlord in the middle of his capital, amongst other dwagons and a large amount of infantry is not good for your health whether your are ensorceled or not. As long as Parson does not disobey any of Stanley's direct orders then it's not inconceivable he could survive disbanding.Something witty this place goes...