Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[DaedalusMkV]

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.

The Remora Drone Fighters are playable enough, certainly more than the Manta. Railgun Tigersharks are plenty good, being a Superheavy Flyer with good BS carrying a gun that's either a Destroyer weapon or a Demolisher Cannon equivalent with better range, twin-linked. But the meat of the Tau Apocalypse stuff? Their Datasheets, no doubt. The Stealth Suit Datasheet is made of win, the Pathfinder Datasheet amounts to "I have 24 Pathfinders wherever I want to on the board, whenever I want them to show up. They can still shoot when I deploy them. You can only shoot them if you're within 20". My entire army is BS5 against anything I get two Markerlight counters on." Finally, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre is incredibly cheap generates a couple of free markerlight counters to anything the command tank can see. The Kroot sheet basically gives you the entire Kroot Mercs codex in legal form for your army, and the Devilfish one makes all of your 'Fish Fast for 100 points, which can be an incredible deal.

Note that most of the above comes from Apoc:Reloaded and the free sheets from GW's website. If you're just using the stock Apoc book, the Tau really are pretty poor off. With everything they have access to in Apoc? They've got some great stuff. Yeah, the Tau don't get the rediculous Superheavies of the other factions, but they get more than enough in Apocalypse to make the game plenty fun. You know who really gets nothing in Apoc? DE, Necrons, Daemons, and the Inquisition factions have less than six total datasheets each, compared to the Tau's ~14.

Edit: Removed a couple of minor inaccuracies.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Uhh...Somebody cheated. The Drop Pod is the thing that Deep Strikes. The Dreadnought is merely disembarking from a vehicle, not Deep Striking.

Guess again.

[Cheesegear]

If your battleplan is contingent on something being destroyed in the first turn, it's not a very good plan.

What? By destroying your opponent's biggest and nastiest unit, on the first turn, makes the rest of the game incredibly easy. Nothing is 'contingent' on the Sternguard. They just do their job incredibly effectively.

You seem to think that if the Sternguard don't kill it in the first turn, then nothing else will. That's definitely not the case.

And I don't think 'finesse' is the word to use to describe suicidal attacks. That is the very opposite of finesse.

What squad are you using? What unit are you using it to kill? Are you willing to risk Scatter? What if you're not using Drop Troops? What if you're using Outflankers? Super-Quick Bike Squads.

Only Space Marine armies and 'Nids have access to Drop Pods. Everyone else has to Alpha Strike differently. How? Sometimes the 'Nids don't even use Spores. But they can still Alpha Strike.

But the trouble with these things is, once you've used them on someone once, they know what's coming and that tactic is much less effective against them.

That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.

Locator Beacons and Vanguard. What can you do about it? Nothing.

That's the entire point. Your opponent can't do anything about it. Even if he does know it's coming. It's what it's called Alpha Striking. Terrain is pretty much everywhere. The Ymgarls will get you every time.

Oh, you can avoid Ymgarls by not entering terrain. Yeah. Do that. Don't get cover saves from enemy fire. See how that works out for you.


Because 'Victory Points' are no longer used anymore, such as they were in old editions (seriously, some people don't even know that VPs still exist in 5th, that's how 'never used' they are), it doesn't matter if your units don't survive.

The only units that matter are Troops. If they're not Troops, feel free to get them killed at the earliest opportunity if that's what the situation calls for. In Annhilation, you need to be more conservative. But, that's only one third of your games.

[lord_khaine]

I'll wager that if somebody wanted to play around using Allies, they could find a way to nullify one of those two things. In the grimdark future, you're never truly safe.

Well, there is allways Wraithguards to fall back on, for when you really want to crash that monolith.

That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.

They can put their entire army in reserve? i have seen some armies that do it.

[Cheesegear]

They can put their entire army in reserve? i have seen some armies that do it.

That's a huge mistake. Anybody who has seen the picture of the White Scars and Kroot knows. Besides, putting your entire army in Reserve, with no guarantee when they'll come on? It's worse than a Dawn of War setup.

And Chaos Daemons get a way better deal than that, and that's actually their biggest weakness.

You could put your entire army in Reserve. But, you're basically just giving your opponent a 'free' turn in which none of his stuff gets shot at, and he gets to redeploy his forces as he sees fit, move his Fast units onto objectives, or move into cover, etc. And you wont even stop him doing whatever he wants until at least the second turn.

Putting your entire army in Reserves - without Outflank/Deep Strike - achieves nothing except to 'run out the clock', and if your opponent has Infiltrators, he can seriously mess up your day, as seen in White Scars vs. Kroot.

Got the Sep-Dec release dates and previews for Black Library today too...
Hunt for Voldoris - Raven Guard and White Scars, yes!
The second Ciaphas Cain omnibus. YES! As well as another book. Double YES!
The First Heretic. YES!!!
A Garro audio book. GARRO! I hope his voice actor is at least as bad arse as Colonel Stracken's is...I'm hoping that this will be the story of the creation of the Inquistion (read the ending of Flight of the Eisenstein).
Dead Men Walking *Head explodes from excitement*

...Although, TBH, my head just exploded from The First Heretic (Aaron Dembski-Bowden!) and Garro (James Swallow!!!) alone. The rest are just gravy.

[lord_khaine]

That's a huge mistake. Anybody who has seen the picture of the White Scars and Kroot knows. Besides, putting your entire army in Reserve, with no guarantee when they'll come on? It's worse than a Dawn of War setup.

And Chaos Daemons get a way better deal than that, and that's actually their biggest weakness.

You could put your entire army in Reserve. But, you're basically just giving your opponent a 'free' turn in which none of his stuff gets shot at, and he gets to redeploy his forces as he sees fit, move his Fast units onto objectives, or move into cover, etc. And you wont even stop him doing whatever he wants until at least the second turn.

This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

The reason for why he put all his stuff into reserve was that the opponent suddenly had a entire turn where he couldnt shoot at anything, the best he could do was to move around a bit.

Then on his turn he was able to deploy his units in response to the opponents setup, leading to a crushing victory.

[Klose_the_Sith]

This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

The reason for why he put all his stuff into reserve was that the opponent suddenly had a entire turn where he couldnt shoot at anything, the best he could do was to move around a bit.

Then on his turn he was able to deploy his units in response to the opponents setup, leading to a crushing victory.

Those would be a really impressive sequence of 4+'s

[SmartAlec]

What? By destroying your opponent's biggest and nastiest unit, on the first turn, makes the rest of the game incredibly easy. Nothing is 'contingent' on the Sternguard. They just do their job incredibly effectively.

You seem to think that if the Sternguard don't kill it in the first turn, then nothing else will. That's definitely not the case.

No, that's what you are giving the impression of. I know there are other ways of achieving the same objective, and that's why I say sacrificing a large chunk of your army to do it is wasteful.

That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.

Locator Beacons and Vanguard. What can you do about it? Nothing...

That's the entire point. Your opponent can't do anything about it. Even if he does know it's coming. It's what it's called Alpha Striking. Terrain is pretty much everywhere. The Ymgarls will get you every time.

Oh, you can avoid Ymgarls by not entering terrain. Yeah. Do that. Don't get cover saves from enemy fire. See how that works out for you.

There are plenty of things you can do about it. Before the first turn, there is deployment. Part of it is psychological warfare - making it seem to your opponent that whatever strategy they have in mind will not achieve anything. Practically, though, that's achieved a number of ways. Predicting what your opponent's target will be, and setting up accordingly to make things difficult for them - in the Drop Pod's case, deploying close to the edge of the board and using screening units. In deep-striking units' case, keeping as close to terrain as possible. Equipping/upgrading a unit accordingly to serve as 'bait', and leaving them apparently vulnerable can be effective, especially if it leaves the striking unit out in the open.

If they're going to be after a unit, putting that unit on a high level or in a building can thwart various kinds of alpha strikes. With a fast-moving army, you can arrange your whole setup around the alpha strike and then redeploy to meet the oncoming army without much loss of firepower (such as the ymgarl you mentioned - there's more ways to get a cover save than using terrain). if you keep outflanking in mind, you can refuse one flank and cover the other. Leaving yourself some room to retreat is always something that needs bearing in mind.

What size table are you playing on here?

The only units that matter are Troops. If they're not Troops, feel free to get them killed at the earliest opportunity if that's what the situation calls for. In Annhilation, you need to be more conservative. But, that's only one third of your games.

This is the fallacy that leads to boring strategy, I think. All units matter. You have paid for their killpower, and decisive, impressive victory comes from not just applying that killpower to best effect, but also conserving it so that you have as much killpower to apply in any given turn as you can. Winning because you threw part of your army into the wind doesn't strike me as particularly impressive, because if your opponent couldn't deal with something so obvious, they're not much of an opponent. It may work for you, but to my mind it's lazy generalship.

As an aside, putting your entire army in reserve can often work very well. It's the typical strategy of mechanised Eldar armies, for example.

[dsmiles]

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.

I gotta admit, most of the IA/Apocalypse stuff for Tau is pretty craptastic. I do like the FW XV8-series models (XV-89 being XV8 w/iridium armor, XV-84 being XV8 w/markerlight, and the XV-81 having smart missiles) and the new(ish) XV9 Hazard Suits are alright as FA. Heavy drones make the drone squad a slightly more viable choice, though I still wouldn't take a drone squad if you paid me. I haven't played with anyone using air support, so I can't speak for the Manta/Orca/whatever.

[Cheesegear]

This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

You are aware of the list that I - myself - run, right?

No, that's what you are giving the impression of. I know there are other ways of achieving the same objective, and that's why I say sacrificing a large chunk of your army to do it is wasteful.

A large chunk? ...335 Points. To kill roughly anything, and then some? I'd pay it.

There are plenty of things you can do about it. Before the first turn, there is deployment. Part of it is psychological warfare - making it seem to your opponent that whatever strategy they have in mind will not achieve anything.

Except that wont work if your opponent actually knows how to play. I know the Sternguard work. I know Ymgarls work. There's really nothing you can put on the board that will change my mind. Because I know exactly what those units can and can't take on.

[I]in the Drop Pod's case, deploying close to the edge of the board and using screening units.

Doesn't really work. Trust me. It helps. But it doesn't save you.

Equipping/upgrading a unit accordingly to serve as 'bait', and leaving them apparently vulnerable can be effective, especially if it leaves the striking unit out in the open.

Again, doesn't work if you're opponent knows how to play. Especially since he's allowed to freely look at your list anytime he wants and know exactly what is 'bait' and what your 'real' units are.

What size table are you playing on here?

6x4', with lots of terrain and LoS Blockers. More than normal.

This is the fallacy that leads to boring strategy, I think. All units matter. You have paid for their killpower, and decisive, impressive victory comes from not just applying that killpower to best effect, but also conserving it so that you have as much killpower to apply in any given turn as you can.

Victory doesn't need to be impressive. You just need to win. Besides, if I'm not playing Tyranids or Chaos Marines, the Sternguard are the only part of my army that dies anyway.

Did you ever see my Space Wolves vs. Tyranids where I lost only one model in the entire game because my Alpha Strikes were that good? Did you see the game vs. Eldar where my Ironclad killed two units pretty much on his own, and never even got touched?

Winning because you threw part of your army into the wind doesn't strike me as particularly impressive, because if your opponent couldn't deal with something so obvious, they're not much of an opponent. It may work for you, but to my mind it's lazy generalship.

That's your call. But, winning is winning. And tournament tables don't care how you won. Just that you did.

[lord_khaine]

Those would be a really impressive sequence of 4+'s

As i recall all his army was in by round 3.

You are aware of the list that I - myself - run, right?

Yeah, as i understand its also not that common a setup, and to counter the congo line of doom all you have to do is to set up a singel cheap unit somewhere in your own DZ.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, as i understand its also not that common a setup, and to counter the congo line of doom all you have to do is to set up a singel cheap unit somewhere in your own DZ.

So, not all your units in Reserve then?


Anyway, I should really get back to writing that Hawk Lords vs. Tyranids report I promised you guys like...Four days ago. 1750 reports take too long to write...And I'm starting to forget what happened...

[SmartAlec]

Except that wont work if your opponent actually knows how to play. I know the Sternguard work. I know Ymgarls work. There's really nothing you can put on the board that will change my mind. Because I know exactly what those units can and can't take on.

And that's even better your your opponent. If they know that you're committed to this strategy, then they can make it as hard as possible for you knowing that you're going to do it. No matter what you do, it can become an opportunity for the other player.

Doesn't really work. Trust me. It helps. But it doesn't save you.

Oh yes it does. What it does is turn a mathematical sure thing into a maybe. And once it's a maybe, then it can fail.

Using your Sternguard combat squads example, say. Splitting up to target two vehicles. 5 melta shots each. On average, 1-2 will miss. On average, 1-2 will be defeated by cover, obscuring or wargear, if your opponent's been smart. On average, you'll have 1-2 shots that make it through. A little below average, and you've got nothing. If you're close enough, you'll need a slightly-below-average roll to succeed past the armour. If that fails, you've blown it; if both squads have a bad run of the dice, your opponent's going to take you to the cleaners.

Maybe you're a consistently lucky man. But this happens. What do you do, if your alpha strike fails? Can you win a game if your gimmicks fail and you roll below average all game? If the answer is 'yes', then you are good at this game.

That's your call. But, winning is winning. And tournament tables don't care how you won. Just that you did.

Learning how to fight and defeat this sort of thing is critical to tournament play, as the tournaments are usually full of this sort of attempted first-turn-victory thing.

[Cheesegear]

And that's even better for your opponent. If they know that you're committed to this strategy, then they can make it as hard as possible for you knowing that you're going to do it.

It's. One. Unit. It's not 'my strategy'. I'm not committed to anything. If I don't want to put my Drop Pod there, I don't have to. If they defend against it, fine. Then I don't do it. I squat my Drop Pod behind some cover, and run my Sternguard into it.

*Lots of sentences that contain the phrase 'on average'*

You know how I feel about those words...Or maybe you don't.

Can you win a game if your gimmicks fail and you roll below average all game?

Can anyone? If you're opponent rolls better than you, you lose. It's not particularly important what's in your list at that point.

If the answer is 'yes', then you are good at this game.

Hi. I'm Cheesegear. You may have seen me in the thread once or twice.

Learning how to fight and defeat this sort of thing is critical to tournament play, as the tournaments are usually full of this sort of attempted first-turn-victory thing.

Indeed. But, again, nobody with a brain relies on Alpha Striking. It's a shock-tactic, that if it works, makes the rest of the game about eight times easier. If it doesn't work, or is too risky, then don't do it. If you're relying on said move, then, yes, you are a poor general. But, did anyone say here in this thread that they couldn't win without Drop Podding Sternguard? They sure didn't.

[SmartAlec]

It's. One. Unit. It's not 'my strategy'. I'm not committed to anything. If I don't want to put my Drop Pod there, I don't have to. If they defend against it, fine. Then I don't do it. I squat my Drop Pod behind some cover, and run my Sternguard into it.

Good! Then you know that it's not always sure to work and there is not nothing that your opponent can do against it.

Maybe this is a style thing. Maybe listening to Kenny Rogers has led me to put more emphasis on risk assessment, playing it safe etc. Maybe playing a lot of Warhammer has hammered home how a game can be won or lost in the deployment phase. And I've not paid all that much attention to this thread, so I haven't read any of your previous contributions. The mention of Tau tactics just caught my notice and the apparent mention of drop pod Sternguard being the answer to all tank-related worries made me blink.

And yes, dice are only part of the game. Being able to limit how much effect the dice will have on how your game will go is the goal of good tabletop strategy.

[lord_khaine]

So, not all your units in Reserve then?


Anyway, I should really get back to writing that Hawk Lords vs. Tyranids report I promised you guys like...Four days ago. 1750 reports take too long to write...And I'm starting to forget what happened...

You might not have noticed, but it was newer my units to start with.

Having all your units in reserve was a counter to the dropping down Sternguards that you said there wasnt a counter for.

You then bought out the wery unlikely line of kroots strategy, and i merely commented that the counter to that strategy is so simple we will proberly newer see the line again in a tournament.

I gotta say that comment most of all looks like some sort of distraction from that you accidentialy claimed there was no defence against an alphastrike.

[Cheesegear]

Having all your units in reserve was a counter to the dropping down Sternguards that you said there wasnt a counter for.

It's effective against one thing. Sure. I'll agree with you there. Except that it really doesn't counter anything. It stops Sternguard from being as effective as they could be. But, they're still Sternguard. Pedro-Lists never Deep Strike Sternguard and they do okay.

You then bought out the wery unlikely line of kroots strategy

I did. But not really. As my main point was that there are other drawbacks to putting your entire army in Reserve, and your opponent will pretty much thank you for it.

The story where that guy you're talking about, winning on - or by - Turn 3, is definitely not a common occurrence. And, normally, anybody who puts their entire army in Reserve is asking for a kick in the teeth.

Putting your army in Reserve is a counter to one particular move. But, it's not a particularly effective counter considering the rest of the game or the rest of your enemy's units.

[lord_khaine]

I did. But not really. As my main point was that there are other drawbacks to putting your entire army in Reserve, and your opponent will pretty much thank you for it.

The story where that guy you're talking about, winning on - or by - Turn 3, is definitely not a common occurrence. And, normally, anybody who puts their entire army in Reserve is asking for a kick in the teeth.

Putting your army in Reserve is a counter to one particular move. But, it's not a particularly effective counter considering the rest of the game or the rest of your enemy's units.

Actualy, it is a commen occurence, i cant recall seing that guy lose a battle, and though it happens, then its rare enough for the entire club to talk about it when it does.

[Razaele]

Since we're on the topic of keeping things in Reserve to avoid Drop Pods, I would like to ask if an empty Drop Pod could be a good answer to that tactic. Sure, it's kind of a waste of 35 points, but at least you get to keep your Sternguards in reserve as well. I'm aware that it's not exactly sure if your Combi-Melta Sternguards will arrive on the same turn that his Death Star unit will arrive, but at least you still have a chance.

[Cheesegear]

Since we're on the topic of keeping things in Reserve to avoid Drop Pods, I would like to ask if an empty Drop Pod could be a good answer to that tactic. Sure, it's kind of a waste of 35 points, but at least you get to keep your Sternguards in reserve as well.

Not even that. You can start with your Sternguard on the board, and have the Drop Pod come down empty.

The problem with this though, is that you really need to deploy second for it to work. Since if you declare Pods when you're deploying first, your opponent (deploying second) can put everything in Reserve.

[Winterwind]

Uhh...Somebody cheated. The Drop Pod is the thing that Deep Strikes. The Dreadnought is merely disembarking from a vehicle, not Deep Striking.

Quite a few people get that wrong, actually. Mystics should not have given shots against them.

Ninja Chocobo is right. The Demonhunters FAQ indeed states that the Mystics allow to shoot at either the vehicle or the disembarking unit.

You can't Assault - or move - out of a normal Drop Pod, not because you just Deep Striked, but because the squad inside just disembarked from a Transport that had just counted as moving at combat speed. It's also super-sweet that you can land next to terrain (because a Drop Pod does that) and deploy from the Drop Pod, 2" straight into cover, no dangerous terrain saves required. Because you're exiting a Transport, not Deep Striking.

Aye, indeed.

Of course, Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods are a different matter entirely...

The reason He'Stan is so good is that he improves Flamers and Heavy Flamers. Generally regarded as 'crap' and 'mediocre' respectively. He also makes Combi-Meltas on everything that can take one viable. He makes Land Speeders with dual Heavy Flamers (or Multi-Meltas) viable, etc.

Flamers never seemed that bad to me... though that may have to do with me quite frequently playing against either Imperial Guard infiltrating large squads of well equipped infantry with those +cover cloaks into crucial positions, or mass-Genestealer Tyranid armies.

He's pretty much Lysander without Eternal Warrior. He loses S10 for S6, Initiative. And fires a Master-Crafted Heavy Flamer. And can Sweeping Advance.

I mostly only use Lysander because in my meta-game, Eternal Warrior is pretty much mandatory, and my army setup benefits from Stubborn tremendously. I don't even have any Flamers, I sometimes use Heavy Flamers on my Sternguard, but they're the first things I take out when I need more points for a different army concept, etc.
I don't have Hammernators (because Lysander's in the army), and Sternguard Combi-Meltas missing is made up for by having lots of Combi-Meltas.

He'Stan is wasted on me. If I wanted that kind of army, though, I'd have it.

I can only testify that it is unbelievably nasty. Also, He'Stan is generally regarded as the cheesiest Space Marine Special Character around here, though that may have to do with being used by one of the most active players, and many other Special Characters not seeing any use around here at all.

ORLY? You've never seen a Pedro-style army in action?

He'Stan and Shrike are the only Space Marine Special Characters I've seen in action so far, as far as I remember.

Play Dark Eldar. Put a Webway portal in your opponent's DZ. Wreak havoc. Of course, there are ways to beat a Webway Portal, but, since no-one plays Dark Eldar anymore, only the most competitive players (or people who read it in a forum one time...) will know how to completely ruin it.

Not having been up against a Webway Portal ever, and only once against Dark Eldar at all, and not having read it on any forum, let me guess what that strategy is.

Move a unit of your own onto the Webway portal marker?

Oh, you can avoid Ymgarls by not entering terrain. Yeah. Do that. Don't get cover saves from enemy fire. See how that works out for you.

You can try to guess at what terrain piece the Tyranid player is going to deploy them in (often not that difficult), and then, depending on how big that terrain piece is and what you have at your disposal yourself, see if you can cover that terrain piece entirely with your own units. If you can, congratulations, you have just killed the Ymgarls.

Most non-horde armies will have a hard time pulling this off though.

They can put their entire army in reserve? i have seen some armies that do it.

I'm absolutely with Cheesegear on this one. I've seen first hand how badly Chaos Daemons can be screwed over by their deployment rules, and those are vastly better than having the entire army in reserve.

Since we're on the topic of keeping things in Reserve to avoid Drop Pods, I would like to ask if an empty Drop Pod could be a good answer to that tactic. Sure, it's kind of a waste of 35 points, but at least you get to keep your Sternguards in reserve as well. I'm aware that it's not exactly sure if your Combi-Melta Sternguards will arrive on the same turn that his Death Star unit will arrive, but at least you still have a chance.

Since you have to declare whether the Sternguards are arriving in the Drop Pod or not at the beginning of the game, I'm afraid that will not work...

___

Regarding the "sacrificial Sternguard"-debate - I look at it this way. Would you, if you had the option to get the following special rule, want to have that special rule?

"At the beginning of the game, you may remove 300 points of your choice from your army. If you do, remove 300 points of your choice from the enemy army."

So, would you want that rule? Of course you would. Because while your army is specifically built around working without the unit you remove for these 300 points, you are free to pick whatever you want from the opposing army - and thereby screw it up good.

Of course, Drop-Podding Sternguard are not quite as reliable as that rule would be. But, they shouldn't be, as that rule would be ridiculously overpowered. And they are the next best approximation to it.

Also note the "may" part. You do not have to sacrifice them. You decide whether there is something worth sacrificing them for at the moment when you deploy them, and if that's not the case, you are perfectly free to deploy them somewhere where they will be safe, so it's not like you waste 300 points for nothing even if the opponent has an army against which this strategy is not suited or has deployed in some hypothetical fashion that protects him from it..

[Razaele]

Not even that. You can start with your Sternguard on the board, and have the Drop Pod come down empty.

Actually, I was thinking about not having the Sternguards deploy in my DZ because that would kind of be a waste of their Combi-Meltas. As you have brought to my attention before, Combi-Meltas are almost always a waste on foot slogging Sternguards.

The problem with this though, is that you really need to deploy second for it to work. Since if you declare Pods when you're deploying first, your opponent (deploying second) can put everything in Reserve.

Since you have to declare whether the Sternguards are arriving in the Drop Pod or not at the beginning of the game, I'm afraid that will not work...

Which is what the empty Drop Pod is for. Whether or not he deploys first, he still needs to deploy his army and therefore declare whether or not his Death Star unit is deploying in his DZ or is in Reserve before I put a Drop Pod on the table.

...

Or am I once again wrong in my interpretation of the rules?

[Winterwind]

Which is what the empty Drop Pod is for. Whether or not he deploys first, he still needs to deploy his army and therefore declare whether or not his Death Star unit is deploying in his DZ or is in Reserve before I put a Drop Pod on the table.

...

Or am I once again wrong in my interpretation of the rules?

Just so I get it right - your plan is to have two Drop Pods, one containing the Sternguard and another empty, and if whatever you want to kill with the Sternguard starts on the table, you have the Sternguard-Drop Pod come down first, and if it's not, you have the empty Drop Pod come down first so that the Sternguard can arrive later, when your intended target has entered the table as well?

That should work, I guess, though you still risk that the Sternguard happen to arrive before their intended target does, if you happen to roll higher on your Reserve rolls than your opponent.

[Razaele]

Just so I get it right - your plan is to have two Drop Pods, one containing the Sternguard and another empty, and if whatever you want to kill with the Sternguard starts on the table, you have the Sternguard-Drop Pod come down first, and if it's not, you have the empty Drop Pod come down first so that the Sternguard can arrive later, when your intended target has entered the table as well?

That should work, I guess, though you still risk that the Sternguard happen to arrive before their intended target does, if you happen to roll higher on your Reserve rolls than your opponent.

Well, at least there's still a chance! But yeah, I only came up with this about an hour ago, and I have no idea how this little trick will survive contact with the enemy.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Actualy, it is a commen occurence, i cant recall seing that guy lose a battle, and though it happens, then its rare enough for the entire club to talk about it when it does.

What list is this that can start entirely in reserve and yet somehow come out of it laughing?

If your entire army starts in reserve then you'll have nothing on the table until turn 2, when a random smattering arrives. Then most of what's left arrives the next turn, to try and replace the last wave. Then pretty much everything arrives. By this time the game is effectively over and odds are you haven't even fielded everything.

Trying to mount a defence by approaching your enemy piecemeal doesn't work in 40k because it isn't the Battle of Britain - unless of course if it's some sort of disturbing mega-list where every unit is capable of operating super autonomously ...

But then what does he gain from having every last drop in reserve? He won't really have manoeuvring advantages, because his opponent will literally get more movement phases. He'll be outnumbered from start to finish, unless he gets really lucky.

I understand that he can choose his fights to an extent, but it'll be in such a hostile environment that it's a dubious tactic at best.

Suicide Sternguard are a LOT more reliable than 100% reserves. Much harder to counter, too, seeing as they're something you can't actually react to (you just have to prepare for) whereas coming on from reserve will rob you of a round of long ranged firepower, whilst presenting fewer and consequently juicier targets to your opponent.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm really not following how this works.

[Gruffard]

Not having been up against a Webway Portal ever, and only once against Dark Eldar at all, and not having read it on any forum, let me guess what that strategy is.

Move a unit of your own onto the Webway portal marker?

If I remember right, the webway portal is carried by unit X. A set of your reserves is assigned to the webway portal. At any shooting phase unit X can set up the webway portal. It is a large blast template. Now all of the units in reserve that were assigned to the webway portal can walk on the board from the portal as though it was a table edge. AKA move, shoot, and assault as normal. Which is nice.

Bad stuff: If unit X is killed to the man, Web portal is lost, and all the units inside it.

Do not rember if you have to tell which unit has said portal, think it is "hidden", but might be wrong here, haven't played DE in a while.

Seen this be a great upgrade, or crap.

[Winterwind]

If I remember right, the webway portal is carried by unit X. A set of your reserves is assigned to the webway portal. At any shooting phase unit X can set up the webway portal. It is a large blast template. Now all of the units in reserve that were assigned to the webway portal can walk on the board from the portal as though it was a table edge. AKA move, shoot, and assault as normal. Which is nice.

Bad stuff: If unit X is killed to the man, Web portal is lost, and all the units inside it.

Do not rember if you have to tell which unit has said portal, think it is "hidden", but might be wrong here, haven't played DE in a while.

Seen this be a great upgrade, or crap.

But the Dark Eldar units still have to come out of Reserve before they can exit through the portal - they do not arrive the instant the portal is set up. And since you roll for Reserve at the very beginning of your turn, your opponent will have at least one turn before units start arriving from the portal.

The units do not walk out of the portal, they are placed on it. Which means that if there is a unit occupying that space, they cannot be placed.

And I think it's the small, not the large blast.

[MountainKing]

...It seems like an army that can 1st turn Assault fairly consistently wouldn't ever bother with using something as flimsy as a webway.

[Cheesegear]

What list is this that can start entirely in reserve and yet somehow come out of it laughing?

I'd like to know too.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm really not following how this works.

You and me both.

Do not rember if you have to tell which unit has said portal, think it is "hidden", but might be wrong here, haven't played DE in a while.

Seen this be a great upgrade, or crap.

The rules have changed since 3rd. Your opponent can now look at your list anytime he wants. You can't actually 'hide' anything anymore.

But, otherwise, yes. A WwP is either very powerful, or very crap. Considering that...

an army that can 1st turn Assault fairly consistently wouldn't ever bother with using something as flimsy as a webway.

Indeed.

[Winterwind]

So, Cheesegear, did I guess right?