Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Closet_Skeleton]

The duke seems like a solid choice actually. Was going to use the decapitator orignially, but duke seems more sensible.

The duke is useful for an all drugs army, but combining him with the baron means you have no haemonculi and no strong melee HQ. So you can't really afford to have any stunclaws (which are more "for fun" anyway) since you'll want an agoniser on every Helliarch.

[Ricky S]

Just to add my $0.02.

I bought three tactical squads and a devastator squad. I made two tactical squads gave them plasma cannons from the dev squad. I gave the dev squad 4 missiles and gave 5 guys from the third tactical squad box the others heavy weapons so I could have multiple heavy weapon options. The spare 5 guys I made a command squad with using some spare bits.

Does anyone know the rules for allies? I want to add some witch hunter allies to my space marine army but I can't find the rules for allies anywhere. I have the witch hunter codex from GW but they dont have the rules in them.

[DaedalusMkV]

Does anyone know the rules for allies? I want to add some witch hunter allies to my space marine army but I can't find the rules for allies anywhere. I have the witch hunter codex from GW but they dont have the rules in them.

Do you have the print copies, or are you using the free PDF? If the latter, it's technically not legal, since the Allies rules aren't printed there. If your gaming group doesn't care;

You can take up to the following as choices in a Witch Hunter force Allied with Space Marines:
1 HQ Choice
1 Elites Choice
2 Troops
1 Fast Attack

Again, you cannot bring this to a GW store without a print codex. If you do have the print codex... Page 25.

[Cheesegear]

Would a generic HQ choice [for Space Marines] work as well?

It would. I suggest that you get your favourite Special Character, because you can just use them as a Generic HQ if your meta-game hates Special Characters.

If you want a Generic Captain with Lightning Claws, Shrike will look better than pretty much anything you can make if you're not willing to fork over cash for extra bits.

Anyone got some advise for using the new dark eldar or any units that you cant really do without?

Part 1 - HQ and Wargear
Part 2 - Everything else
Part 3 - Special Characters

You can take my words as given if you want. But, I do leave a lot of justification for my choices between the posts. crazedloon challenged me on a lot of things, make sure to read the addendums I put into Part 2 and 3 as a result of crazedloon challenging me. He brought up a few things I didn't really think about. Or hadn't yet used or tried out.

biggest problem though is the lack of a wrack model. You will have to wait till the second wave of models for wracks unless you want to convert your own

I kit-bashed Empire Flagellants and Ghouls. A Knife was my friend.

[Turcano]

If you want a Generic Captain with Lightning Claws, Shrike will look better than pretty much anything you can make if you're not willing to fork over cash for extra bits.

My biggest issue from a model standpoint is that Shrike has lots of prominent raven iconography, which can really interfere with a uniform look for the army. Luckily the chapter I picked out for myself has wings in its badge, so the alterations hopefully won't be too drastic.

[Cheesegear]

My biggest issue from a model standpoint is that Shrike has lots of prominent raven iconography, which can really interfere with a uniform look for the army. Luckily the chapter I picked out for myself has wings in its badge, so the alterations hopefully won't be too drastic.

A file is your friend.

[Ricky S]

Do you have the print copies, or are you using the free PDF? If the latter, it's technically not legal, since the Allies rules aren't printed there. If your gaming group doesn't care;

You can take up to the following as choices in a Witch Hunter force Allied with Space Marines:
1 HQ Choice
1 Elites Choice
2 Troops
1 Fast Attack

Again, you cannot bring this to a GW store without a print codex. If you do have the print codex... Page 25.

Ah damn, I only have the free pdf.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I'm not gonna write a battle report but I just have to tell you this.

I played with my Tau vs. Orks. And a unit of 7 fire warriors managed to first win in close combat vs. a unit of Nob bikerz, followed it up with an desperate assult to take an objective (wich would make me the winner) against a unit of slugga boyz. I won that aswell.

I have never been so lucky with my dice rolls or seen someone as unlucky with theirs as my opponent. I almost feelt sorry for him.

Almost being the key word

[Vespe Ratavo]

Well, it's been a while since I've played 40K, but due to their new codex, their infinite supplies of badassery, and my renewed obsession interest in the forty-first millenium, I've decided to bite the bullet and start an army of Imperial Guard.

By which I mean I have one squad of Cadians. Unassembled. Still in the box, actually. But that will be fixed soon enough. My question is, does anyone have some good advice for a noob to the IG? That is, beyond get moar troops, I kind of figured that one out.

[crazedloon]

the biggest decision for imperial guard is to mech or not to mech.

If it is the prior you will need
-a lot of chimeras (everything should be in a chimera)
-a bunch of vet squads with quad melta
-your heavy units of choice (chimeras, demoliters or the like)

and work from that. You can use some fun tactics like outflanking with tanks via alharim but the basic idea behind this build is to castle turn 1 (your chimeras only revealing their av 12 front) and than move like an inevitable wave of metal forward

if the later than you will need
-more troops
-maximize your heavy weapons/troops. You play the game of numbers with this army and win by volume.
-you may still want to invest in some heavy tanks but in an all troop army they tend to die more quickly due to less targets

[Talkkno]

Which of those two is cheaper currency wise?

[Incomp]

I'm not gonna write a battle report but I just have to tell you this.

I played with my Tau vs. Orks. And a unit of 7 fire warriors managed to first win in close combat vs. a unit of Nob bikerz, followed it up with an desperate assult to take an objective (wich would make me the winner) against a unit of slugga boyz. I won that aswell.

I have never been so lucky with my dice rolls or seen someone as unlucky with theirs as my opponent. I almost feelt sorry for him.

Almost being the key word

Epic. I have seen those brave fire warriors do amazing things as well.

One game, a unit of four bloodletters charged a pair of stealth teams (not fire warriors, but still.) No stealth teams were killed, and the bloodletters were wiped out.

In a much more recent one, a greater daemon (of C:CSM variety) charged six fire warriors, and then proceeded to whiff all his attacks. The fire warriors wounded him once, and he failed his save for being fearless.

[crazedloon]

Which of those two is cheaper currency wise?

mech, however only just. The reason is that point for point you need more models in an infantry army

[Renegade Paladin]

the biggest decision for imperial guard is to mech or not to mech.

If it is the prior you will need
-a lot of chimeras (everything should be in a chimera)
-a bunch of vet squads with quad melta
-your heavy units of choice (chimeras, demoliters or the like)

and work from that. You can use some fun tactics like outflanking with tanks via alharim but the basic idea behind this build is to castle turn 1 (your chimeras only revealing their av 12 front) and than move like an inevitable wave of metal forward

if the later than you will need
-more troops
-maximize your heavy weapons/troops. You play the game of numbers with this army and win by volume.
-you may still want to invest in some heavy tanks but in an all troop army they tend to die more quickly due to less targets

1.) Too bad veterans can only take three heavy weapons. 2.) Chimeras aren't exactly heavy, and what's a "demoliter?" 3.) Al'Rahim doesn't allow tanks to outflank; he only takes his infantry platoon. Creed, however, does.

[crazedloon]

1.) Too bad veterans can only take three heavy weapons. 2.) Chimeras aren't exactly heavy, and what's a "demoliter?" 3.) Al'Rahim doesn't allow tanks to outflank; he only takes his infantry platoon. Creed, however, does.

lets clarify (cus I did most of that off the top of my head )
1) touche so they can only have 3 but that is plenty
2) they are heavy compared to most transports thanks to 12 front armor. When you castle (put them side by side) this leaves little room for low power anti tank to cut through. on the note of not even spelling properly (or even attempting to name the proper tanks) I got nothing I meant the demolisher and manticores.
3)His infantry platoon which is all in chimeras with heavy flamers and flamers in the units (or plasma for heavy infantry killing) This is more than enough and effects more than 1 "tank"

[Turcano]

A file is your friend.

No kidding. Luckily all I need to do is file the heads and feet of and shape the torso into a circle. Biggest foreseeable problem might be filling in ropes and other details underneath the chest emblem, which might require some green stuff.

[TheThan]

What you want to be doing, is building up your core models that you're going to use forever. You're starting brand new. I don't know why people say "Hi, I'm new, here's a 1500 point list that I plan to get."

1. You've never played the game, right? Or maybe a couple of intro games?
2. Because you've never played 'seriously', you have no idea what your meta-game is. Hell, they might be all casuals for all you know, and you come in with your big stompy fully optimised list, and suddenly you're 'that guy' that nobody wants to play with.

Look man, start small. You want to be thinking about 750-1000 points.

This is very good advice here. It goes for any miniatures game besides warhammer 40K as well. Start small and start collecting.
What I recommend for anyone starting 40K is to buy something small every month and paint it. That way every month you are adding something to your army and actually painting it as you go. You can make a “big” purchase (like a battalion or something) and be fine for a few months.

But just rushing out and buying a bunch of models all at once is a bad idea for several reasons.

It’s intimidating, you’ll be sitting there with bucket loads of stuff to assemble and paint, and not have a clue where to start. So you’re not likely to actually start on it because of that.

If you actually ever start on it, its going to take you FOREVER to get anything accomplished because your so swamped with stuff. Heck I know people with unopened models just sitting around in his closet. They’re sitting there because he didn’t get to them before he forgot he had them.

The force you buy now might not actually be the force you like to play. I’ve known several people that have spent over $1000 on a miniatures army. They played with their new armies a few times then ended up selling them (for less than they paid for the army) because they didn’t like the army as much as they thought they would, or they realized the army didn’t fit their play style at all.

By starting small (500 point games is a good place) you learn the rules of the game, how your chosen faction works and whether or not you like it or not long before you invest heavily into it.

And no, AoBR sucks for starting players (if you already have a rulebook).

I don’t think that assault on black reach sucks for starting players at all. At $90 you’re getting, the rule book, templates, specialized dice, and two fully playable armies. Both armies are around 5-6 hundred points, perfect size for a new player. Sure they might not be the most optimized armies but a new player shouldn’t be focused on optimizing his lists. He should be worried about learning about the hobby itself. When the new player decides to expand his army, he already has a solid core force from which to build upon. I mean a dread, captain, tactical marine squad and a unit of terminators is a heck of a starting point for any space marine player (sure they aren’t hammernators, and the dread doesn’t have the most optimal guns but that’s not a huge concern for someone just starting the game).

Everyone seems to take the opinion that AoBR sucks because its not optimized for competitive play. But its not supposed to be, its designed to be some kid’s first warhammer army. AoBR is there to provide people that are interested in the hobby the rules and some miniatures to paint and use. Without forcing them to buy $250 worth of miniatures and books just to get started.

It’s a great teaching aid. I’ve used it to teach people the game before and it works very well. After this person purchases this, someone ought to sit down with them and help them assemble models, and then show them the game. Those same models can be used to teach people how to paint miniatures.

OK i just noticed I got a little long winded. so I'm going to stop now, but I do wanna say this:
The miniature war gaming community is pretty small. So we all need to do our part to promote the hobby and maintaining a good healthy community of gamers (that you can be proud of) is an important part of the hobby. By sitting down and teaching someone the hobby, one aspect at a time, you help the hobby grow and increase the size of your community.

[Ninja Chocobo]

and two fully playable armies.

Minor point; straight out of the box, the Space Marines don't have a legal army.

Also, they outnumber (in terms of points) and outgun severely the Orks, despite the Orks having mildly more competitive choices in the long run.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Minor point; straight out of the box, the Space Marines don't have a legal army.

Yes they do. According to the rules in the booklet the army is usuable, so it is. The Space Marine Codex that was released after the box is irrelevant if you don't own it.

You'll have problems if you try to use the army in normal games, but if you just want to play AoBR its playable.

[Klose_the_Sith]

</snip>

How big is too big by your definition?

My first 40k purchase for my Marines was

- Battleforce
- Assault Box
- Marine Captain Box
- Codex

That seems to be a lot more than you'd recommend ... but I had it all painted and glued within two months. I'm not entirely sure that a Marine player would be better off aiming for 500 points ... you'll get two footslogging Tactical Squads and the barebone HQ of your choice ... unless you play Scouts I suppose, but not many people are Cheesegear.

(Or I suppose you could play Blood Angels, who actually can do alright at 500, 'cause Assault Squads don't need to pay for Rhinos to be effective at anything other than gunlining ... which Tactical's aren't that good at anyway.)

Anyway all I'm saying is that I'd recommend 750 at least, probably 1000 for new Marine players. 500 point games are honestly a waste of time

[Ninja Chocobo]

Yes they do. According to the rules in the booklet the army is usuable, so it is. The Space Marine Codex that was released after the box is irrelevant if you don't own it.

You'll have problems if you try to use the army in normal games, but if you just want to play AoBR its playable.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the Warhammer 40k tabletop game in the Warhammer 40k tabletop thread.

Also, this is the same AoBR that advocates putting a 585 point Space Marine army against a 450 point Ork army. An Ork army that has no Furious Charge, Mob Rule, 'Eavy Armour, Cyborks, or Waaagh!

[Cheesegear]

I don’t think that assault on black reach sucks for starting players at all. At $90 you’re getting, the rule book, templates, specialized dice, and two fully playable armies.

Since he's starting Space Marines...I most heartily disagree.

sure they aren’t hammernators, and the dread doesn’t have the most optimal guns but that’s not a huge concern for someone just starting the game

This pretty much contradicts the paragraph before it. You're not starting the game anymore. You know how to play. You're now starting to build your army, and making it good. Terminators do not belong in 1000 points. And the Dread, simply just sucks. And the Captain isn't that great either. What AoBR gives you, is a slough of 'wasted' models.

You've got AoBR. Play a few games. Then never use those models again. Great investment!

That's why I believe you should only play AoBR in-store, or if you want Orks.

Everyone seems to take the opinion that AoBR sucks because its not optimized for competitive play.

This is wrong. AoBR sucks because the Space Marine army is not legal (how this is good for new players I have no idea), the units the Space Marines get are not suited to <1000 point battles - which is what AoBR is. And, once you get out of AoBR, playing in real 1000 point games, and not against Orks, you wont even use half the models anymore.

Hell, the reason the Marines always win in AoBR is because the Orks are about 100 points less, and aren't even using their special rules.

The only thing useful in the box for Marines is the Tactical Squad. Barely.

AoBR is a bad way to start a Space Marine army.

It’s a great teaching aid. I’ve used it to teach people the game before and it works very well.

And that's fine. In the GW store, AoBR works perfectly well (however, I also notice that in intro-games, they don't use the Dread, Koptas, or either of the HQs). Outside intro-games, AoBR is bad.

You can learn the game by have your friend teach you (you got into the hobby somehow, right?)...

Your words, not mine...

Spoiler

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The miniature war gaming community is pretty small. So we all need to do our part to promote the hobby and maintaining a good healthy community of gamers (that you can be proud of) is an important part of the hobby. By sitting down and teaching someone the hobby, one aspect at a time, you help the hobby grow and increase the size of your community.

...or by having GW Staffers teach you. But, at no point do you need to buy AoBR.

Tape measures, you can get anywhere. Dollars to doughnuts most people already have some. Plural. The 'measuring sticks' you get in the box are terrible.

Truckloads of dice? I'll probably give you that one. But, it's not like dice are all that expensive anyway from any hobby or gaming store.
Templates...Probably the only thing you really need. But, again, they're not that expensive.

The only thing that you particularly need out of the AoBR box is the rulebook. There's a fairly significant chance that your friend who got you into the hobby already has one. Unless you're planning on going to tournaments and playing competitively (you're a new player right, why are you doing that?), having your own rulebook isn't that important if there are other people around who do.

[Winterwind]

Regarding the "Don't start with too much at once", on one hand, I kinda agree (I did that mistake and basically purchased 2000 points at once, and it really is a bit overwhelming, not to mention that now that I have a bit more experience with the game I would use at least partially somewhat different units than what I got originally), on the other though I feel "Don't start with too little at once" is equally important. If all you have are two or three separate units, you don't really have many tactical options; the less units there are, the more the game stops being about "who maneuvers the best?" (because there really isn't much to maneuver with, and complex strategies which rely on multiple units working together simply don't work because there are no multiple units to work together) and focuses on "who has more luck/the nastier list?".

Personally, I'd suggest about 1000 points as start for a new player.

[Cheesegear]

Regarding the "Don't start with too much at once", on one hand, I kinda agree

This one guy...Called Wraith...Once wrote a whole post about it.

[Winterwind]

This one guy...Called Wraith...Once wrote a whole post about it.

And I fully agree with everything he wrote in that post, but he doesn't mention "Don't start with too little" in there, either. Which was kinda the entire point of my post.

[Klose_the_Sith]

And I fully agree with everything he wrote in that post, but he doesn't mention "Don't start with too little" in there, either. Which was kinda the entire point of my post.

As was mine, albeit focussed solely on Marines and buried in my tragically mediocre posting-style >.>

[Deth Muncher]

Quick question: A friend and I are planning on doing a Planetstrike game sometime soon. Does anyone have any experience with this sub-ruleset? Any tips? Any random things, like what a nice point size is for it, etc? I'd appreciate it.

[Zimfan]

Regarding the AoBR set, I understand that it's a better deal if you're planning on using the Orks in it. I am, and also like the blast templates and other things that come with it. I would also use the marines to work on my painting with and possibly incorporate the less suboptimal ones into a Marine army sometime.

The problem is, I already picked up the rulebook fairly cheaply. With that in mind, is there a better route to go for a wouldbe Ork player to start off with?

[Cheesegear]

The problem is, I already picked up the rulebook fairly cheaply. With that in mind, is there a better route to go for a wouldbe Ork player to start off with?

Actually, not really. AoBR is really good for Orks. Warboss, 20 Boyz and a couple of Koptas. Not only do you have a solid HQ, 2 Troops and pretty much the only Fast Attack choice worth having in the Codex, you get 5 Nobz as well! Well, the Nobz aren't great, you'll be cutting them up and/or replacing them with better things soon enough.

The only thing comparable for Orks in price is the Battleforce, which is 20 Boyz, a Trukk and a couple of Bikes. Which most people convert up to a Warboss and two Nob friends (with more to come later). The Trukk fudges up the Battleforce IMO, because it means splitting your Boyz into two units. And a unit of 10 Boyz on foot doesn't do much.

AoBR is roughly worth it for the Koptas alone, because you're not going to find plastic Koptas anywhere else. Especially not ones with Rokkits. Like I said, they're a Fast Attack choice worth having.

If price isn't an issue...Well, it depends on what kind of army you want to make.

[Deth Muncher]

Actually, not really. AoBR is really good for Orks. Warboss, 20 Boyz and a couple of Koptas. Not only do you have a solid HQ, 2 Troops and pretty much the only Fast Attack choice worth having in the Codex, you get 5 Nobz as well! Well, the Nobz aren't great, you'll be cutting them up and/or replacing them with better things soon enough.

The only thing comparable for Orks in price is the Battleforce, which is 20 Boyz, a Trukk and a couple of Bikes. Which most people convert up to a Warboss and two Nob friends (with more to come later). The Trukk fudges up the Battleforce IMO, because it means splitting your Boyz into two units. And a unit of 10 Boyz on foot doesn't do much.

AoBR is roughly worth it for the Koptas alone, because you're not going to find plastic Koptas anywhere else. Especially not ones with Rokkits. Like I said, they're a Fast Attack choice worth having.

If price isn't an issue...Well, it depends on what kind of army you want to make.

I second all of this. A good chunk of my Ork force comes from several copies on the AoBR set - I think I got it twice from SM players who didn't need it. Deffkoptas are. The. Shiz. You want them. You want them so hard.