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Thread: Efreet?
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2012-11-20, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
Death is trivially easy to overcome when it's deliberate and you have someone to bring you back. If you don't achieve some form of immortality you stay dead "when your time is up." Then of course there're the myriad ways to get your soul trapped or destroyed.
My eyes are playing stupid right now so could you please list a pageOriginally Posted by FC2 page 8Originally Posted by FC2 pg 10Originally Posted by FC2 page 17 under reproduction
Alright lemme ask you a question: Say that you are Mephistopheles and someone has just permanently killed Asmodeus. Would you actively (and I mean put in some serious effort to the point where you probably start a few trillion eons of constant war) seek out the guy who offed him or would you move on and get to work on building your own organization?
To be more fair it would be a Cleric V Wizard 123 discussion Of course considering the fact the Wizard is immune to everything under the sun, this is generally considered moot.
A fight like that would pretty much be like the Lady of Pain Vs Ao.
Devil's have a level of self-importance that trumps Karsus easily. They are just as likely to fail (statistically more actually) then you are. Which explains why Heroes actually get away with the shenanigans that they pull periodically.
Demon's aren't exactly famous for their intelligence. Perhaps not a Deux ex machina, but it does certainly reek of something hampering the Demons. Perhaps a conflicting on his Layers after his disappearance or simply fear of him kept them from looking for him.
Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore on the target to learn more about it, Scry for it. All until you have the knowledge that you seek which is a simple question: "Can it use Wish now?". Moot really especially considering that a MM Efreet cannot use Wish for itself...
FALSENESS! HE HAS ALREADY USED HIS WISH FOR VECNA KNOWS WHAT!
No offense, but this actually disturbed me a little bit after reading it...
Regardless! The creature does not know what spell I am going to cast immediately after agreeing to the spell. I could of course just set up some shenanigans to make him botch the save on anything short of a nat 20 (negative levels are a hell of a drug).
Statistically this is quite true. Just make sure you have enough Wishes to not screw up on the first time. Hell, on your first successful wish, wish for a magical item of unlimited wishes
Actually it is incredibly easy to increase the characters caster level by 18 either through Spellcraft use (MoF) or Circle Magic or even magical items (Ioun Stones). Increase your caster level is child's play at 20th level. Efreeti are simply the easiest to do since you don't have to worry about retribution or anything.
That is what disturbed me. How little value you placed on the creatures life and if you were in that situation, your own life...
Regardless this can be done without asking "nicely" through the use of negative levels, penalties, etc.
Quite right. I'd just rather not see either a person like you get banned. Excellent participant on this forum
In this particular instance, our discussion seems more a logical progression of the discussion than a derail, IMO. I would, of course, stop immediately and take this to another thread if a mod or the OP suggested it. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun here.
Quite right. NOW TO MOVE ON TO ENSLAVE THE EFREETI!
SpoilerLast edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-20 at 07:01 AM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2012-11-20, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Efreet?
Please tell me you're thinking of another source beyond the BoVD on the whole Soul Destruction thing
Lichdom is a personal favorite when it comes to immortality really... But if we can get our hands on that spell that makes you immortal then we are crystal. Just try and take the item away from him (Wish would replicate a super charged Teleport Object which offers a Will save).
Strong chain of command I see, but my question remains (and is answered in the next reply).
Seems legit actually.
See next point.
Made me laugh sooooo hard
Which is why I said statistically. Regardless all the Wizard has to do is get one and s/he is set.
Not necessarily. It is a Cosmic being getting dicked by a Wizard with no repercussions, in fact benefiting from screwing with the entire cosmology.
*Puts on Archyre* "Why in the hell should I be forced to lower myself to the status of a commoner, just to get something that I rightfully deserve?" *takes it off*
It literally cost less gold to find out that information and actually succeed through with the plan then it is to buy the scroll. Since none of the Archdevils are actually Gods, if you talk to anything beyond a Demideity they won't know diddly.
Alright. I'll give you all my remaining WBL if you let me cast that one spell on you without you resisting. That good enough for you?
Actually it would be kosher, because it is a magical item with a calculable price and not an Artifact. If Boccob wants one he can literally just Alter Reality to make one for free (Actually he can make a better one since he has Craft Artifact). Of course it is DM fiat, but it is pointless DM fiat, with no cause to it other than to dump on the players plan because "It doesn't fit in with my Campaign." It is childish and if your DM let you get on up to that point without stopping you they have no real right to complain since the plan is plainly obvious...
Efreeti are merchants (I do dream of playing a playing one with the Merchant Prince class...), however if one of them disappears no one will complain. Actually, I'm pretty sure some people will throw you a party... since their debts to that particular Efreet is gone now.
I see. I would like to discuss your stances on Murder and it's justification in a stress inducing environment (My Philosophy Prof is having a discussion on it in a week and he wants us to get our talking points together).
a 5% chance on a 1 time wish or the entire Multiverse loses? I'm liking these odds
My 2nd Wish can be "I wish nobody except me remembered that I ever casted a spell on X"
Quite right. You are a gentlemen and a Scholar *smokes pipe*
Think of it like a Monkey's Paw. You have to be very specific in the use of your Wish, otherwise you end up screwing over everyone.
That is The Lich from the show "Adventure Time".SpoilerA Personal favorite character from that show for the simply purpose of his use of his Universal Wish "The extinction of all life" (which was changed to Wishing that his wish was instead "Finn and Jake returned to Ooo", thus supposedly trapping him in Prismo's Time Room)Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-11-21 at 07:23 PM.
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-11-20, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-11-20, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: Efreet?
The whole Ol' Boys Club O' Hell idea has me peeing my pants. Good god man, play the damn game already!
The ONLY reason a dead bad guy's friends are going to come looking for a character is because the DM wants them too. seriously, you could extend this logic to ANY, I repeat ANY type of monster in D&D:
The PCs just killed a Dragon so all the Dragons team up to kill them to protect themselves.
The PCs just killed a Kobold in a back alley for his 1 CP he keeps in his sock so all the Kobold nations make the PCs enemy numero uno and set out with spears and torches to catch them.
Dude, sooner or later you need to play the damn game and stop thinking about ways to stop the PCs at every step. The PCs are supposed to be special and do special things. Sometimes they get to big for their britches and things need adjusted. Handling these times like a **** will only lose you friends.
Forget looking up references to support your DM jerk moves. Sit down and discuss how to work out the problem. Be as adult as possible.
A GREAT solution to a character that gets to be to powerful is to allow the PC to turn into a patron of some sort. Let the player use him for favors down the road. In short, stop trying squash fun in the favor of play balance. Fun is a real thing, play balance is a myth.Last edited by barna10; 2012-11-20 at 11:49 AM.
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2012-11-20, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Efreet?
BoVD is the primary source on the matter of souls outright destruction, but it's not the only one. More importantly, you've positted a means of forever trapping a soul in your own posts. Binding spell, plus broken bag of holding. Nevermind a number of creatures that explicitly consume a creature in a manner that doesn't allow a res; barghest to take an example from the SRD.
Lichdom is a personal favorite when it comes to immortality really... But if we can get our hands on that spell that makes you immortal then we are crystal. Just try and take the item away from him (Wish would replicate a super charged Teleport Object which offers a Will save).
Strong chain of command I see, but my question remains (and is answered in the next reply).
Seems legit actually.
Which is why I said statistically. Regardless all the Wizard has to do is get one and s/he is set.
Not necessarily. It is a Cosmic being getting dicked by a Wizard with no repercussions, in fact benefiting from screwing with the entire cosmology.
*Puts on Archyre* "Why in the hell should I be forced to lower myself to the status of a commoner, just to get something that I rightfully deserve?" *takes it off*
It literally cost less gold to find out that information and actually succeed through with the plan then it is to buy the scroll. Since none of the Archdevils are actually Gods, if you talk to anything beyond a Demideity they won't know diddly.
Alright. I'll give you all my remaining WBL if you let me cast that one spell on you without you resisting. That good enough for you?
Actually it would be kosher, because it is a magical item with a calculable price and not an Artifact. If Boccob wants one he can literally just Alter Reality to make one for free (Actually he can make a better one since he has Craft Artifact). Of course it is DM fiat, but it is pointless DM fiat, with no cause to it other than to dump on the players plan because "It doesn't fit in with my Campaign." It is childish and if your DM let you get on up to that point without stopping you they have no real right to complain since the plan is plainly obvious...
Incidentally, thats' why such an item wouldn't be kosher in the eyes of a god of magic either. Here's an item that can nearly replicate the divine ability to alter reality in the hands of some berk with an attitude. Preventing the collapse entire civilizations, nevermind the rampant fighting over this item by every outsider that ever hears about it would be perfectly in-line with the desires of all but the gods of destruction and chaos, who would want the thing for themselves to sow exactly that kind of discord.
Btw, let's take a look at that "calculable price" 9X17X1800 for a command word activated 9th level spell is 275400. Then you get 5X5000 for the XP to gold conversion for 25000. Multiply that by 100, per the formula for XP costs on at-will items brings us to 525,400gp total. In-game, that would constitute more than 2/3 the WBL of a 20th level character. It should probably be more like 10X that since it's an epic item. This does not belong in a non-epic game, except perhaps as a plot device.
That's both in-game and metagame reasons for that item to either never exist or to be immediately removed. It's not a kosher wish.
Efreeti are merchants (I do dream of playing a playing one with the Merchant Prince class...), however if one of them disappears no one will complain. Actually, I'm pretty sure some people will throw you a party... since their debts to that particular Efreet is gone now.
I see. I would like to discuss your stances on Murder and it's justification in a stress inducing environment (My Philosophy Prof is having a discussion on it in a week and he wants us to get our talking points together).
a 5% chance on a 1 time wish or the entire Multiverse loses? I'm liking these odds
My 2nd Wish can be "I wish nobody except me remembered that I ever casted a spell on X"
Think of it like a Monkey's Paw. You have to be very specific in the use of your Wish, otherwise you end up screwing over everyone.
SpoilerThat is The Lich from the show "Adventure Time". A Personal favorite character from that show for the simply purpose of his use of his Universal Wish "The extinction of all life" (which was changed to Wishing that his wish was instead "Finn and Jake returned to Ooo", thus supposedly trapping him in Prismo's Time Room)
That's just uncalled for.
When I DM, I don't try to curb-stomp the players at every turn, nor do I try to prevent all of their plans from working. I do, however, set certain limitations on what's permissable. Free, infinite wishes is on my black-list, but use of calling conjurations is not.
Having in-game justification for why this can, and likely will, go wrong is just part of creating a high-verisimilitude world.
I'd start citing economic principle if this were a discussion on infinite wealth, another of my black-list items.
In case anyone's interested, I only count actual, permanent and semi-permanent magical gear on the characters' persons against their WBL. If I counted all of their assests, including property, businesses, expendables, and pay-rolled minions, they'd exceed WBL by several fold.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-20 at 09:53 PM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2012-11-20, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: Efreet?
It is not uncalled for. You are wasting resources (your brain) on crap that just shouldn't matter.
WBL? Seriously? Again, play the game! I can see worrying about this when making a character higher than first level, but after the game starts, who gives a crap! If you think they have too much stuff (please don't pull out a calculator!), have some thieves steal some stuff. Them trying to track them down to get their stuff back will make for high adventure!
I'm telling you, concentrate on role-playing and the story and forget about the numbers! This game can be so much more fun!Last edited by barna10; 2012-11-20 at 10:48 PM.
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2012-11-20, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
Go go stormwind fallacy!
Just because working within the numbers doesn't sound entertaining to you doesn't mean me and mine don't enjoy the game the way we play it, and I resent the implication that I don't know how to roleplay when I've spent the last several pages discussing fluff material from an almost entirely in-game perspective.
Us disagreeing with each other is fine. Calling us asshats because our fun doesn't match yours is uncalled for.
Tangentially related note: how is it any of your concern if I waste my own resources (my brain, as you put it)? It's not hurting you.
If you don't like what's on, change the channel. Don't storm the studio and demand the director's head on a pike.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-20 at 11:53 PM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2012-11-20, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
Never said you were asshats, but I think I will add that to my vocabulary.
Don't remember saying you don't know how to roleplay...
Don't recall ever hearing that stating my opinion somehow degrades you or the game you're playing, but if it affects you so much, maybe there is a problem.
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2012-11-21, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
You didn't say it in so many words, but your post very strongly implied it. I seriously doubt that I'm the only one that could've read it that way.
Seriously. If your post wasn't supposed to be saying we're doing it wrong, what was it supposed to say?
I'm not particularly upset, just a tad perturbed by the implications.
I can say with a certain measure of certainty that neither I nor Arcanist was angrily sniping the other. We were having a rational discussion based on logic and the in-game fluff.
Even if you don't agree with what we're saying or why we're saying it, that doesn't change the fact that we were enjoying our lively debate. We may even have given some people some things to think about for their own games.
Given that the most common way for an efreeti to be seen in-game is as a result of the calling spells we're discussing, it's not even entirely off-topic. In fact, the danger of being the efreeti in this situation is a very solid reason -not- to play one. How much would it suck for some NPC wizard to call your PC efreeti via planar-binding and subject you to the things that Arcanist has described.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-21 at 01:38 AM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2012-11-21, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
No, my posts didn't say it in any words; you very strongly read into it. Don't get your panties in a bunch, geeze. Play the game however you want. If you're having fun, great. What you've described is the way I used to play 20 years ago. It got boring and I moved on. That's all.
Last edited by barna10; 2012-11-21 at 02:51 AM.
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2012-11-21, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Efreet?
I'm sorry if I misread you, but when you quote someone and then explicitly use the word "you" in your response, it implies pretty heavily that you're directing your comment specifically at the person you've quoted.
If I did misread you, and you're not just back-pedalling as fast as you can, then you're own phrasing and post structure are why.
But let's just drop this before it gets out of hand. Happy gaming, Barna.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle