Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Castaras]

I find it to be enormously cathartic to type long, detailed descriptions of my problems into this white box.

I always realize before I hit "submit" that I'm not quite sure I need relationship advice from random people all around the country, but just putting down how I feel is nice.

So thanks, I guess.

A lot of the time, putting your problem into words can help a lot of the time. The number of times I've started writing something for this or the depression thread and realised "Waaaaait. I know what I should do." is staggering.

So you're very welcome. ^.^

[Vacant]

The best way to attract mates is to know what's lovable about yourself, then enhance it and display it. And depression makes that really hard, man. Your chronic Gloomy Gus-ness is going to keep love from falling in your lap.

I disagree with this. First of all, some people find Gloomy Gusses and/or Gussettes totally lovable, myself included. Moreover, "find what's lovable about yourself and enhance it," is only so far removed from "find what's 'lovable' in general and emulate it," and both are ways to start a relationship founded on some degree of deception. Displaying it is fine so long as one does not do so to the exlucsion of "less lovable" traits. If one is a Gloomy Gus, starting a relationship predicated on not really being a Gloomy Gus, even if it is predicated on other things about oneself which are true, is bad both in my view morally and, in most situations, purely pragmatically. Someone finding the "less lovable" aspects of one's personality that were intentionally hidden to deceive that someone is a good way for both parties to end up pretty hurt.

It's advice that sounds innocent enough, yeah, but it essentially relies on the idea that some aspects of oneself are, inherently, unlovable, which I find problematic in a lot of ways, mainly in the sense that it enforces a degree of homogeneity and it's probably pretty bad for somebody's self-esteem. The solution isn't for one to stop being oneself or hide one's nature, it's to find someone who loves that, not someone who loves a mask of "lovable" traits and won't like what's underneath it when that face, invariably, comes out. In my opinion, one should strive to find someone who finds one lovable, not strive to make oneself lovable in the arbitrary preferences of another. Sometimes finding that sort of person takes longer and, indeed, can take quite a while.

[DeadManSleeping]

I personally think the cyst on my buttcrack is pretty unlovable, but if you find someone who digs that sort of thing, let me know.

You may have heard the phrase "be a better you". It is certainly possible to improve oneself without sacrificing identity, and that's as important to romance as it is to, well, everything in life. Example: when I first entered college, people detested me. By the time Junior year came around, I was pretty darn likeable. To this day I don't know what changed. I just tried to be nicer to my friends, and I guess it worked. But I can tell you I never tried to get rid of pieces of myself I found bad (well, except my chronic laziness, but I still have that!). I mean, I grew a beard, but that's partially because I wasn't really able to grow facial hair until like Sophomore year.

I wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't accept and love every part of me (butt-cyst not withstanding), but I sure as heck don't put it all out in front of me and demand that anyone who wants to be near me get used to it. People who would otherwise be fine with any sort of thing can most assuredly get scared off (telling someone your favorite sex acts as you both undress is far more attractive than telling someone your favorite sex acts as you shake hands, for example. No, I haven't tried that).

I'm not saying anyone should get new feet. But putting your best foot forward is probably not a bad idea.

[AtlanteanTroll]

For those of you with a decent memory:

Spoiler

Show

I got the girl's number. Baby steps... baby steps...

[term1nally s1ck]

Just as you can't expect someone to love you for anything you aren't, you DEFINITELY can't expect someone to love you if you're not going to even try to improve on your flaws.

Focus on your strengths, try and make them ACTUALLY a bigger part of who you are. Try and take your flaws, and make them a smaller part of you.

Expecting that who you are now is who you will be for the rest of your life is what you do when your life has concluded. When you have retired and you've completed all your responsibilities and goals, then you can settle back and be who you are now for the rest of your life.

If you do that at ANY time before then, you are a waste of your own time, let alone anyone else's. You still have goals, responsibilities, and you still have a myriad of ways to improve. Ignore them if you wish, but you can't expect anyone else to look past that.

[Vacant]

Flaws like a melancholy temperament? To focus on one's strengths and put one's best foot forward is all well and good, but most advice I've heard about doing so is really "put your homogeneous foot-shaped cookie-cutter appendage forward and keep all your feet to yourself," including the advice that being a Gloomy Gus is keeping one from finding love and, by implication, is one of those "unlovable" traits. I'm gloomy and saturnine and it's not something I'll change or hide to find a mate. It's not like I go up to ladies and say "Hey, I'm [Vacant] and I'm morose," but if she talks to me for five or ten minutes I think the cat will be out of the bag bat will be out of the cave.

[Coidzor]

If you actively put up a face that says to the world "leave me alone," well, they'll do so. That's more the idea as I've seen it.

[DeadManSleeping]

Mayhaps you misinterpreted my use of "Gloomy Gus". You do realize it was meant to be an understatement for clinical depression, right?

I've met melancholy people. Plenty of them. They're different from people who are closed down. They simply have a different way of being open.

It's perfectly fine to be bashful and quiet. Sure, you might not meet people who don't interact well with quiet types, but that's no loss. However, being the type of person who pushes others away will make your life horrible.

And, in case you're wondering, pushing others away is EXACTLY what depressed people do. In all cases of depression I've personally observed, that's what happens.

And as far as feet and forwardness, let me relate some personal info to you.

I am a horrible juggler. I have never been able to juggle three balls at once. I've done many things which require more general coordination than juggling, but I have never EVER juggled well. This is no secret. If someone on the street randomly walked up to me and asked if I juggled well, I'd laugh and say "HELL NAW".

But you won't see me going around throwing and dropping juggling balls at social events (unless there's some sort of juggling karaoke event. Then I might do it once for kicks). I do not falsely emulate the persona of a good juggler either. I simply focus my energy on traits that are not juggling, because people will probably be more interested in things that I can actually do.

I've got some pretty annoying personality traits too. And I try to keep them at a minimum around strangers. One does not make friends by correcting the grammar of others.

And if you want to think I'm a scumbag with self-esteem that's too low to let me be myself in public, go ahead. But I will keep on rocking and doing my thing, and try to bring a few more smiles to the world by being the best me I can be.

And maybe attract women in the process. Hey, it COULD work!

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah, gotta second this "be a better you" thing. No-one's flawless, but "that's the way I am!" is one of the weakest excuses for not trying to rid yourself of your flaws.

People can change. Someone who's trying to might be doing so due to low self-esteem, but calling them out for that is beside the point, since chances are they're trying to change precisely to remedy that.

"You are fine just the way you are" is potentially a very poisonous phrase. A lot of people aren't, and they know it; that is why they're down. Becoming something else will help them get over it.

Yes, world is full of examples of people trying to change to the wrong direction, and/or changing for the wrong reasons. But I feel a lot of people are starting to attentuate the negative about personal change and improvement.

[Serpentine]

My "Guide To Self-Image" is pretty much about this... Making who you want to be, who you are. Because "be yourself" is all well and good, but if "being yourself" consists of picking your nose and flicking it at attractive young ladies while sitting around with a beer-gut barely covered by a "Get Back In The Kitchen" T-shirt, the fact of the matter is you're probably not going to get all that much positive attention, and that isn't anyone else's fault.

[Drascin]

Yeah, gotta second this "be a better you" thing. No-one's flawless, but "that's the way I am!" is one of the weakest excuses for not trying to rid yourself of your flaws.

Indeed, "that's the way I am" is the crappiest excuse for a flaw ever. People can change, and rid themselves of flaws. The problem, rather, comes when people disagree in what the flaws are.

See, for example, what I have spent many years and much effort changing myself into would (and probably has) make several people in this thread cringe . But I honestly believe I'm a much better person now than I was, and I like myself much more for it. And of course, conversely, some of the stuff thrown around some places as gospel for what's good makes me cringe.

Be the best yourself. But only you can decide what "the best" is. Think long and hard, about your ideal, about what you want to be, about what your perfect "you" would be and go for it - remove the parts of you that you feel are flawed, and improve in your good parts. And if your ideal is not conventionally attractive? Honestly, who cares. So you're single. Big deal. You're still awesome .

But that's just my thoughts on this matter.

[Stardrake]

Doesn't help that every single time I've found a girl that I might like, something comes up to make her unavailable or she's uninterested. Every. Single. Time. It's very frustrating. And it's not even a matter of me waiting around too long. Mostly I just don't even get a chance.

As for the depression, that's a fun story because I'm not sure I can afford to keep seeing someone. I got put on medication, but it never really seemed to help. I still felt like crap most of the time. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the first third(ish) of my life was worth anything. Of course, if I ask anyone, they'll just say, "Of course!" (or some equally meaningless variant), or tell me to stop being emo. Neither of which is particularly useful for me.

On another note, can someone reassure me that people do, in fact, start their romantic lives well into their 20s, possibly even after 30? That's just one thing that's bugging me, the idea that no one is going to be interested in a guy that hasn't ever been in a relationship and is almost 30 years old.

Bingo. My first serious relationship started when I was twenty seven and a half. If you're not making the classic waited-too-long mistake that I made far too many times, then really the best thing you can do is keep trying.

(Incidentally, I assume you wrote the FIRST third by mistake? If you're still only approaching 30 your first third would be in your preteens, and they're not exactly supposed to be high-pressure years of great accomplishment. )

[term1nally s1ck]

That argument can be applied to literally anything. It's not a justification.

"I am a serial killer. But it's part of who I am. If I stopped killing, I'd not be the same person anymore, and I don't think I want that."

All you are saying is "I don't want to try and change." Don't try and disguise it by talking about not wanting to be a different person. You just don't want to make the effort to fix the flaws you admit to.

[term1nally s1ck]

That doesn't address the point, which is that your justification is not a justification. You don't want to change because you don't want to change, not because you're worried about becoming a different person.

[Frozen_Feet]

Honestly, who cares.

Honestly, if the answer to that is "no-one", it might not be very positive, especially when it comes to relationship things. If you go through lots of trouble and no-one still gives a damn, it can be just as hard a blow as negative comments.

About "being someone else": ... really, I find a lot of people are too averse to the concept. Me? I'm not the same person I was last year, or five years, or ten years ago. Only part of that was in any way conscious change. Some just happened.

Accepting the fact that you will change is part of life. One of my teachers once said "saying "I never will" is one of the most dangerous things to say, since chances are you will." By denying the possibility of change, people cloud their vision to small changes and can potentially miss turns for the worse. And once they realize that yes, they did, they'll feel bad consience for their mistaken conviction.

Of course, the statement breaks down if you apply extremities or physical impossibilities to it, but I still think he had a good point. Don't pre-emptively shut down or deny change. You don't know what life will do to you. You won't be the same person in a few years, or even in a few months, so don't get too hung up on what you are now.

[rogueboy]

qbit, let's ignore the zero-sum issue for a moment (I'll come back to it in a minute). If people around me are in a better mood, it tends to pull me up - not necessarily a lot, but more than nothing. If we assume that we're primarily concerned with the happiness and well-being of those we're around (either physically or emotionally), as those tend to be friends and family, then me being in a better mood does nothing but HELP the parts of the world I care about most.

As to the zero-sum thing: If we accept the world as being zero-sum, then we get into some bizarre, illogical situations. Like massive loss of life - because so many people were reduced from 'normal' levels of happiness to nothing, that happiness had to go somewhere; do you really believe that the black death in Europe actually increased ANYONE's happiness? Because that seems like an enormous leap of faith to me. And the obvious counter-argument to that is that it isn't necessarily zero-sum at any point in time, but is zero-sum over the long haul (much the way the stock market improves over time, but can drop significantly for a day, week, or year). But this also leads to a ridiculous argument: because there are many more people now than there were 20, 50, or 100 years ago, the average person has to be significantly more depressed, as there isn't more happiness now than there was then (zero-sum argument here) - I can't believe that's true for a second.

And sure, the serial killer argument might be a bit extreme, but lets take a more mild example: if I constantly yell at people over minimal errors, that's hardly an admirable quality (let's call unadmirable qualities 'flaws', shall we?). But keeping that flaw is hardly going to help anyone; in fact, it's going to hurt people (emotionally, most likely). It's also going to be a lot easier for me to stop than for anyone else to even try to stop me. Regardless of what the specific flaw is, if it's actually a flaw, it's hard to argue against trying to fix it.

Also, as Frozen_Feet said: you do change who you are. Whether it's intentional or not. Honestly, I don't think most people who know me now would believe how different I was in early high school, or vice versa (and it's only been ~10 years since then). Hell, even the last 5 years have seen a lot of things change for me, though not nearly as much as the prior 5. And pretty much none of that has been intentionally saying "this is a flaw I want to get rid of", it's just been that as I've changed my habits, I've become what I would define as a better person. Not a different person, just one that's able to interact better with the people I care about.

Perhaps the key thing is not defining yourself by everything you do/believe, but by the key pieces - for me, I could probably boil down "who I am" into a couple sentences, but I'd be leaving out enormous pieces that could be argued are part of who I am: things like religious/spiritual beliefs, career, and hobbies probably wouldn't be in that short paragraph.

[rogueboy]

Ok, so there was confusion on what you meant by zero-sum there, so I'll grant you that the now/then part of my counterargument doesn't apply. However, I still maintain that your definition of zero-sum (one person's positive can only come by someone else's negative) results in ludicrous results in some cases: let's look at 9/11 for a moment, in this perspective, shall we? Ignoring the loss of happiness of all those who were actually killed (or assuming that they balanced each other out in terms of happiness), do you really think that the emotional gains of the terrorist cells (which is a very small subset of the population, no matter how you slice it) equaled the emotional losses of the family and friends of those who died? Of the American populace that was devastated, even if they didn't know anyone who was killed? Of the world at large? Because I'm pretty sure that would require each person who actually supported 9/11 to reach unimaginable heights of happiness to maintain that zero-sum game you believe in.

I'm not going to pretend I understand what you're trying to say in your second paragraph.

So, because you enjoy whatever someone else does, that makes you likeable? Personally, I find that lack of commitment to your beliefs to be incredibly unnerving. I like being around people who have the self-confidence to say that they dislike something that I adore, as long as they have a reason for it. If they're willing to discuss things, so much the better. I've had some wonderful conversations with very good friends based purely on the fact that I dislike religion as a whole, while they are devoutly religious, for one simple reason: I have reasons that I dislike religion, and I can make a reasonable argument, even if it can't convince others (and I don't try to convince others, it's an individual choice, imo).

Being there for people is something that I've always prided myself on, but I also recognize that there are times/reasons that I can't be - so I apologize, wish them luck, and we continue being friends.

Why would you want to change that you don't want anything for yourself? Because you can't tell me that having no motivation is actually a positive thing, in any way, shape, or form. For yourself, or for anyone else. I'm sorry, but you can't.

Obviously, only you can decide if not dating or making yourself available to meet someone is fine for you; just don't think that just because you aren't dating someone means they can't be dependent on you for happiness, at some level. As I said earlier, my mood generally tends towards where my friends are - if they're in a good mood, it puts me in a better mood; if they're feeling sad/sick/out of it, I'll be in a worse mood. Not because I'm dependent on them for happiness, but because I care about whether or not they're happy - and if they aren't, it makes me sad.

[Sholos]

Bingo. My first serious relationship started when I was twenty seven and a half. If you're not making the classic waited-too-long mistake that I made far too many times, then really the best thing you can do is keep trying.

You said your first serious relationship. Did you have non-serious relationships before that? Hookups, fooling around, something casual, anything? Because I haven't. Not that I'm necessarily wanting anything like that, but the point is that I've never even had the chance.

(Incidentally, I assume you wrote the FIRST third by mistake? If you're still only approaching 30 your first third would be in your preteens, and they're not exactly supposed to be high-pressure years of great accomplishment. )

Actually, I was referring to my entire life so far as being the first third(ish) of my (roughly expected) life, assuming that I don't die sooner. In other words, I sometimes don't feel like my life so far has been worth anything. I can't really think of anyone who would be worse for not having known me. (Yes, I'm like George in It's a Wonderful Life, except I haven't saved anyone's life or business lately). The feeling comes and goes.

[Reluctance]

The "great changes" I've made to others' lives have all been a part of incredibly mundane activities. I introduce people to new social circles. I lend a hand where it's needed. I guess I'm lucky in that there have been times when I've been able to see these small changes blossom, but that's what it comes down to in the real world. Small, incremental changes.

Still, and let's be frank, no play != no impact. The fun part is that as you get older, many of the pressures of dating lighten up. It'll be a red flag down the line, but it'll only be a red flag on date one if you let it make you neurotic.

And then at the end, you kiss her. That's it. You want play, grow a pair and make a move. Would be nicer if more women did, but eh. If you want something to happen, you have to take steps to make it happen.

[DeadManSleeping]

Zero-sum happiness is technically impossible to disprove thanks to the so-called Butterfly Effect, but if anyone wants a realistic (commonplace, even) scenario that portrays it as HIGHLY unlikely, feel free to send me a PM. Meanwhile, here, we talk about relationships.

Personal change is not something we can dodge. One of my friends recently posted on Facebook a piece of introspection on where 5 years had taken him. His life in 5 short years had changed so radically that I bet if I went back to that time, I'd hardly recognize the guy. My girlfriend, meanwhile, has related to me stories of how she was a highly overemotional sort of crazy person in early high school. Ever since I met her in her first year of college, she's been just about one of the most mellow people I've ever known.

Attempting to preserve your personality is a pretty futile effort. A more worthwhile cause is making sure you're calling the shots on some of the changes, and going in a direction that you think will make you happy. And, yes, oftentimes that is a direction that makes you less unlikable.

I, for example, will (probably) never stop being bothered by bad grammar and spelling, no matter how many essays I read on the evolution of language. But I can try to make myself more pleasant by keeping my mouth shut about them when I know that saying something won't make any difference (read: 99.99999% of all occurrences). Right there I've become more fun to socialize with, even though I'm being just as judgmental.

[rogueboy]

The "great changes" I've made to others' lives have all been a part of incredibly mundane activities.

Case in point on this: my best friend is several years older than me, but had stopped going to university because he wasn't motivated. A couple years ago, he returned to school; his reason? My success in college. Not only did I not push him to go back, I only occasionally mentioned it.

Also, I was recently told by an old friend (who I haven't seen in 10 years or so) that he is going to be inviting me to his wedding as an honored guest (aside: does anyone know what that means, in the context of a wedding?). The reason? I was really nice to him, didn't treat him differently because he has Asperger's, and was a good friend to him. What I remember of that time: I treated him as I would expect any decent person to treat him.

Most of the time, it's not the big, drastic things that make an impact. It's the accumulation of small things, which add up to having an enormous impact on someone's life. There's probably at least half a dozen people out there who thank you for something, even if they don't say anything to you.

[Frozen_Feet]

Saying "I never will" is one of the most dangerous things to say, since chances are you will.

... And that I a choice I will never make...

*cough*

---

@Sholos: I don't know if this helps you, but for the first 21*) years of my life, I had nothing more than platonic relationships - between 15 and 21, I actually managed to alienate myself from a lot of people I was acquianted or friends with during earlier ages. In fact, by the time I got out of army, my circle of friends contained maybe three potential mates, with little to no interest in any direction (two have since gotten together with other people, and the third I'd rather avoid since I have crushing inferiority complex towards her).

Frankly, during the time everyone else seemed to be getting their first experiences in romance and sex, I let every opportunity walk past myself, when I wasn't purposefully avoiding them. (Remind me why 15-year-old me thought it wouldn't be wise to get a girlfriend before going through army?) I didn't have guts to approach single one of my crushes.

Even after army (or just after turning 20), I was deadset on getting job and an apartment first before even thinking of romance.

Life had to show me with big, glowing neon letters that no, I wasn't getting those things anytime soon, and that if I didn't get off my lazy butt I'd just continue being lonely and miserable because of it. So I gave online dating a shot and, when that boosted my self-confidence again, started bar-hopping (even though I hate being in bars).

Just now, I did some counting. During the last year, I went on 27 dates with 8 different women. Have I been getting some? Nah. Has any of those dates turned into a serious romance? Not yet. But I'm still in regular contact with 5 of them. I can safely say that even if nothing else comes from it, that's 5 new friends to talk to when life punches me in my gut (again).

... aaand then there are two pen pals I'm in regular touch with, 11 people I just happened to meet along the way and now keep contact with semi-regularly, and umpteen brief exchanges with crap-if-I-remember-how-many internet dates that didn't get to the point of actually meeting, yadda yadda.

It's not much, but it's better from zero record I kept for way too many years.

It was all a matter of actually hauling my ass out of the door, and in some cases dressing sharp. Oh, and manning up enough to actually talk to people. I can't claim it was easy, since it required me to compromise with a lot and breaking many "I never wills" of my own. But I think it's going to be much easier from here.

*) This is not actually true. Before I was 12 and my mother still worked as a daycarer, our house had steady influx of other kids and new playmates. I remember cuddling and kissing with pretty much every girl even roughly my age that ever got across our doorstep. In elementary school, I was also pretty popular with girls and had a lot of girl friends. I don't think it really counts myself, since it was literally childs play.

Still, it makes me wonder... just when the **** did that charming boy turn into anti-social shut-in? Why? In retrospect, it makes no sense! I think I'm going to do like all other inept psychiatrist and blame it on my parents...

[Starwulf]

snip

Pretty great story there ^^ Only one thing to say, and that is: It actually is/was a good idea to not grab a g/f right before going into the military(or really, any time before it). Relationships formed during HS, don't usually last when one party moves far away and is prevented from communicating for couple of months, and still unable to see each other for another few months beyond that, and really, unless they are willing to move to your permanent duty station, you're looking at a separation of however long your term is. Many friends I have that went into the military, had semi-serious relationships that didn't work out. Hell, my own didn't, though I didn't realize it until after I got out and found out she cheated on me. So you're 15 yr old-self actually had it right on that one ^^

[Frozen_Feet]

Unfortunately, it worked well for my little bro, who started a relationship with one of my crushes just before going to the army and now he's back and they're going steady. Can you tell I'm a bit jealous?

Ironically enough, she is thinking of going to the army as well (though it'll be a few years)... wonder how that will pan out. Oh, but wait... one of my dates is her best friend, and also going to the army... what's wrong with womenfolk these days??? It's not even mandatory for them. XD

[Malfunctioned]

Ugh.


So wall of text time.

Spoiler

Show

So since last time I posted on here a few things have happened. P....Well, let's just say she turned out to be someone I would not want to be romantically involved with. And so I broke it off and realised how much I missed my LDR. So me and her got back together, we've stayed together since then.

Me and my friend Brain actually confronted our feelings and now it's all out in the open between us, no-one else though, and it pretty much comes down to 'We have feelings for each other and if the moment had been right we would of most likely got together, however we've never been single at the same time and it just hasn't happened, so it's better to leave it that way. If anything we're even better friends from it.

Now to the actual issue at this time. So like I said I'm back with LDR girl, things are good. Really good. And then I meet a new friend.
Yeah.
This story again.
Super-attractive, super-geeky, and just plain awesome. We talk a lot and I find myself subconsciously flirting with her, stopping when I realise it. But yeah. And it's not one sided either.
The thing is that I don't entirely want to be with her. The main thing of this is that I actually feel bad about this. Stupidly bad about it. I feel like I'm cheating on my girlfriend by inadvertently developing a crush. And even if I feel like I don't deserve to be with her because of this I can't break up with her because I just can't bring myself to hurt her. So yeah.

SO TL/DR: Two amazing girls, I'm with one, feel incredibly bad about having feelings for the other, mind is full of adkgadfgadfg.

[Castaras]

It is perfectly natural to get crushes, even when you're in a perfectly happy relationship.

Enjoy it while it lasts - it will disappear.

[Stardrake]

You said your first serious relationship. Did you have non-serious relationships before that? Hookups, fooling around, something casual, anything? Because I haven't. Not that I'm necessarily wanting anything like that, but the point is that I've never even had the chance.

I don't really want to go into details of my private life because, you know, there are other people involved, and you know what they say about gentlemen and telling.

Suffice it to say: Nothing as serious as the examples listed above, and I've definitely been in the position of feeling that the lack of anything happening so far means it never will.

[Heliomance]

Sigh.

So, about two weeks after the catastrophic breakdown of the relationship between A (my forlorn romantic interest), B and E, A and E are back together. B, E's former girlfriend of a year, is feeling somewhat put out at the ease with which he has recovered from the breakup and the sheer speed of the turnaround, and general consensus in our friend group is that he is in fact being a charming, manipulative douchebag.

[snoopy13a]

Okay so I the way I see it every one has got a base level of happiness. But every happiness that exceeds that comes at a cost of someone else's.

Not necessarily. For example, healthy relationships are supposed to make both individuals happier.

[Serpentine]

I gain happiness from giving a good gift to someone else... Unless all of my gifts are terrible, that's a net gain of happiness for all involved.
I also gain happiness from playing with a pet, snuggling with a companion, sitting on a pretty hillside, reading a good book...