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    Default [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Witch Killer
    In a world full of magic, it would seem inevitable that magicians shall rule. What is the point of mastering a blade when it takes no more effort to create whole universes and summon demons to your aid? But in a world where magi rule, or threaten to rule, witch killers are inevitable. Fuelled by an unmatched hatred of magic and the supernatural, they crusade against all sorcery and seek to undo the horrors magic has done.

    Alignment: Any. Typically, good witch killers will proselytise about the evils that magic has caused, and focus their efforts on evil spellcasters. Evil witch killers... well, will use their powers for their own benefit, usually at the expense of innocent spellcasters.

    Adaptation: The witch killer is intended to draw his powers from hatred of magic and determination to live without magic. But it could also represent an esoteric martial artist with lots of magic-hurting skills. The mechanics support fluff of a magic hater, but if you don't like the fluff, he can be a badass monk whose only motive for never using magic is because he's that badass, and rename his Armor of Hate ability to be Armor of Iron Will.

    Statistics: Witch killers are martial types, so Strength and Constitution are their most important stats. However, they also benefit from having one high mental statistic, for bonus counterspell slots and higher save DCs on their abilities.

    Table: The Witch Killer
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Counterspelling, Spell Resistance, Detect Witch|3|1

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +1d4|4|2

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Burn the Witch|4|2|1

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +2d4|4|3|2

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Never Submit|4|3|2|1

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Bonus feat, Run on the Air, Smite Witch +3d4|4|3|3|2

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Sear the Witch, Never Sleep|4|4|3|2|1

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +4d4|4|4|3|3|2

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Behold the Witch, Proselytise|4|4|4|3|2|1

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +5d4|4|4|4|3|3|2

    11th|
    +11/+6/+6
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Walk on the Air, Punish the Witch|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

    12th|
    +12/+7/+7
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +6d4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

    13th|
    +13/+8/+8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    | Never Despair|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

    14th|
    +14/+9/+9
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +7d4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

    15th|
    +15/+10/+10
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Pay Magic unto Magic|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

    16th|
    +16/+11/+11/+11
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +8d4, Never Drained|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

    17th|
    +17/+12/+12/+12
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |No Escape, Never Die|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

    18th|
    +18/+13/+13/+13
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +9d4, Destroy Magic|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

    19th|
    +19/+14/+14/+14
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Destroy the Witch, Really Never Die|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

    20th|
    +20/+15/+15/+15
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Bonus feat, Smite Witch +10d4, Like A Badass Out Of Hell|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

    Hit Die: d12
    Class Skills: Any six (except Truespeak and Use Magic Device), plus Craft, Profession, and Spellcraft.

    Skill Points/level: 2 + Int modifier.

    Proficiencies: Witch killers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armour and shields.

    Counterspelling (Ex): A witch killer has a number of spell slots, as shown on the table. He cannot cast any spells from these slots. However, whenever anyone who he has line of sight to casts a spell, reads from a scroll, uses a wand, or creates a spell or spell-like effect by any other means the rules allow for, even if it is not his turn and even if he is flat-footed, he may negate the resulting spell as a free action by expending a counterspell slot of an equal or higher level. He may do this any number of times per round, it is limited only by having to react to a spell. He does not even have to identify (in-character) the spell being used, although he does automatically know which counterspell slot he just expended. A witch killer cannot use this ability if he is currently dead.

    Spell Resistance (Ex): A witch killer has Spell Resistance equal to his class level plus 10. This applies against psionic abilities as well as spells

    Detect Witch (Ex): A witch killer can sense the presence of spellcasters in a 60ft cone-shaped emanation in front of her by concentrating as a standard action each round. The amount of information revealed depends on how long she studies a particular area or subject, and she can only detect spellcasters if she has a line of sight to them.
    1st round: Presence or absence of spellcasters.
    2nd round: Number of spellcasters in the area, and the highest caster level in the area. A person with two caster levels (e.g. a bard/sorcerer or wizard/cleric) is detected as two different spellcasters.
    3rd round: The caster level and location of each spellcaster, and whether their spells are arcane or divine. Again, a person with more than one source of spellcasting counts as two spellcasters.

    Smite Witch (Ex): Such is the witch killer's hatred of spellcasters that it manifests as additional direct damage. Starting at 2nd level, a witch killer deals 1d4 extra damage to any spellcasters she attacks with any physical attack. These dice are not multiplied by damage multipliers, and are not applied to any bonus attacks beyond those granted by Base Attack Bonus. This damage increases by +1d4 every two levels after. A witch killer may choose not to apply this ability to her strikes at no penalty, and if her attack does nonlethal damage then additional damage from Smite Witch is nonlethal damage. This ability only works against people whose caster level is more than 1/2 their character level
    Special: If you are not fluffing the Witch Killer as someone who hates magic, then the power of Smite Witch comes from the fact that their training allows them to be anathema to spellcasters if it is convenient to them.

    Bonus feat: At every even-numbered level a witch killer gets a Fighter bonus feat. If you are using the Gaming Den Tome rules, she instead gets a [Combat] feat at 2nd level and every four levels after 2nd.

    Burn the Witch (Ex): From 3rd level onward, whenever a witch killer counterspells a spell, she may turn the spell's raw power against its caster. The caster suffers 1d6 fire damage per spell level (1d3 fire damage for level 0 spells), and may make a Fortitude save to halve this damage. The save DC is 10 + the spell level + the highest of the witch killer's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers.

    Never Submit (Ex): At 5th level, a witch killer benefits from the effect of protection from evil, except as noted here. First, all creatures count as evil for the purposes of her protection from evil, even if they are neutral or good. Second, the save DC against this ability is 10 + 1/2 the witch killer's class level, rounded up + the highest of the witch killer's Int, Wis, and Cha modifiers.

    Run on the Air (Ex): At 6th level, a witch killer has pushed her body to limits not normally possible for mortals, and has found that magic is not needed to defy gravity. She is able to fly as if under the effect of a Fly spell for 1 minute per class level per day, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst.

    Sear the Witch (Ex): At 7th level, a witch killer may reduce the fire damage from Burn the Witch by 1d6. By doing so, he causes it to bypass fire resistance, and deal half damage to spellcasters with fire immunity.

    Never Sleep (Ex): A witch killer of 7th level no longer needs to sleep. She still can only refill her counterspelling slots once per day, however.

    Behold the Witch (Ex): At 9th level, a witch killer can no longer be fooled by magical tricks. She gains the benefits of true seeing all the time, except that the range of her true seeing is infinite.

    Proselytise (Ex): At 10th level, a witch killer may spend three full rounds preaching about how abominable magic is and how people don't need it to survive. She provokes attacks of opportunity every round while doing so. After the three full rounds are done, everyone who has listened for all three rounds must make a Will save or lose the effects (beneficial or otherwise) of all spells currently affecting them, and all ability to cast further spells, for 1 hour per class level of the witch killer. Anyone who intentionally fails the save also gains the special abilities (but not the bonus feats, saves, hit dice, base attack bonus, or counterspell slots) of a witch killer with a class level equal to their character level for the duration of the effect. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 the witch killer's character level + the highest of her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers.

    Walk on the Air (Ex): At 11th level, a witch killer requires less effort than before to step outside the limits of gravity, and may walk at a stately pace rather than sprinting like a man possessed while doing so. She may fly as if under an overland flight spell for 1 hour per class level, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst. She cannot use this effect and Run on the Air at the same time; the effects are separate. However, she may switch between them in mid air as a free action.

    Punish the Witch (Ex): Also at 11th level, a witch killer may reduce the fire damage from Burn the Witch by 2d6. By doing so, she causes it to bypass fire resistance and fire immunity completely.

    Never Despair (Ex): At 13th level, a witch killer acts as if constantly under the effect of a mind blank spell.

    Pay Magic unto Magic (Ex): When counterspelling, a 15th level witch killer may turn the countered spell back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with Burn the Witch.

    Never Die (Ex): At 17th level, even death cannot stop a witch killer forever. If she has not already been raised or resurrected 24 hours after her death, and she did not die of old age, she receives the benefit of a true resurrection spell with no material component required, and reappears in a safe place at least 1d4 miles from where she died. This ability does not function if a witch killer is killed with a weapon that has no magical properties other than an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls, or if she is killed by any other entirely nonmagical effect like taking a swim in lava.

    No Escape (Ex): At 18th level a witch killer's Detect Witch ability cannot be blocked or deceived by any means, not even epic magic or mind blank.

    Destroy the Witch (Ex): At 19th level, when counterspelling a spell of 6th level or higher, a witch killer may use two counterspell slots of equal or higher level than the spell being counterspelled, rather than the usual one. If a witch killer elects to do this, the counterspell has an additional effect of either banishing or killing the target (witch killer's choice). If the victim of this effect fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the spell level + the highest of the witch killer's Int, Wis, and Cha modifiers) against the kill effect, she dies outright. If the saving throw fails against the banishment effect, the victim is banished to the outer plane that most closely matches her alignment, and may not return to the plane she was banished from for a year and a day.

    Really Never Die (Ex): A Witch Killer of 19th level no longer suffers penalties for aging, has any aging penalties she has already suffered removed, and will never die of old age. She still accrues benefits for aging as normal.

    Like A Badass Out Of Hell (Ex): A Witch Killer of 20th level is a creature of legend. The next time she dies and returns to life, she becomes an Outsider with the Native subtype and the Augmented subtype of her previous type, and all her attacks count as Epic for the purpose of damage reduction. Her appearance also changes in a fashion that reflects her new status, like horns, or golden hair, or faintly glowing skin; whatever it is, it is too trivial to have any additional mechanical benefit or drawback.
    Last edited by Omegonthesane; 2009-09-26 at 12:53 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    The weapon and armor proficiency could be abused by dippers. Just give him simple weapon, martial weapon, heavy armor, shield and tower shield proficiency.

    The spell resistance scaling is funky. It's virtually nonexistant at first level and weak at 20th. Just try 10 + class level or some such. The ability score enhancement doesn't scale as fast as magic items. Likewise consider a natural armor bonus, or just increasing the max armor bonus to +10ish.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-09-25 at 10:11 AM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Looks okay (except for the Proficiencies), though I have trouble imagining one as anything but an antagonist, since the fluff constantly talks about their hatred of magic, and most groups probably have at least one spellcaster.
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    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    .... So let's talk about counterspelling. Is this automatic? Do you still have to ready an action? Is there a caster level check? How does this work?
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Still loses to a spellcaster polymorphed into a war troll . Erect a strong mundane cage over the spot where they would revive. I'm sure this would cause you to make a class feature specifically being immune to them polymorphing, and mundane cages... but really the whole class is just an arms race and you might as well make them immune to 1 spell level per 2 levels =/

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Assuming normal counterspelling rules you'd ready an action. Which means the caster might still get a spell off in round 1 or before combat, a spell beyond the killer's level, or a quickened spell. Or if the killer attacks instead of readying, thinking there are no casters around.

    Depending on what spells the DM allows casters and how one-sided you want the fight to be (in either direction), you could give the witch killer a way to get rid of magic after the fact.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-09-25 at 10:24 AM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Still loses to a spellcaster polymorphed into a war troll . Erect a strong mundane cage over the spot where they would revive. I'm sure this would cause you to make a class feature specifically being immune to them polymorphing, and mundane cages... but really the whole class is just an arms race and you might as well make them immune to 1 spell level per 2 levels =/
    This is a good point. I'm not saying he should add a class feature specifically to stop polymorphing and mundane cages, but some sort of Dispelling effect would fit with it. Maybe a Full round action to channel a Dispel Magic through a melee attack.
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    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
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    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
    Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
    Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
    Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
    Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
    Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
    Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
    Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

    Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

    Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
    Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.



    EDIT:
    The above post indicates the futility of fighting magic without magic-or abilities equally strong and equally versatile to magic.
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2009-09-25 at 10:30 AM.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
    Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
    Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
    Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
    Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
    Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
    Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
    Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

    Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

    Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
    Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.
    So what you're saying is that all Wizards should carry a delicious sandwich on them at all times?
    Actually, the fact that my character had a sandwich on him once helped my party out immensely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    EDIT:
    The above post indicates the futility of fighting magic without magic-or abilities equally strong and equally versatile to magic.
    No, it relies on the assumptions of the Tippyverse, in that all Wizards are prepared for all threats at all times, are never surprised, low on spells, or missing a spell crucial to their brilliant magical riposte. I especially like how you used almost every flat-out-broken spell, apart from Gate and Disjunction.

    The ironic part about these arguments is that whenever someone suggests the caster might be at a less-than-optimal starting condition, it's considered a horseshoe in the glove.

    That said, magic is almost always going to be superior.
    Last edited by Catch; 2009-09-25 at 10:36 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    So what you're saying is that all Wizards should carry a delicious sandwich on them at all times?
    Actually, the fact that my character had a sandwich on him once helped my party out immensely.
    Yes. I agree. And that sandwich should be the party psion. Do not snack on him.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    No, it relies on the assumptions of the Tippyverse, in that all Wizards are prepared for all threats at all times, are never surprised, low on spells, or missing a spell crucial to their brilliant magical riposte. I especially like how you used almost every flat-out-broken spell, apart from Gate and Disjunction.

    That said, magic is almost always going to be superior.
    Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 5/ Divine Oracle 10.

    Immune to surprise. Mantle of spells means you are basically always prepared. I think we have nothing else to discuss. I even get a free daily wish. I love how people talk about the tippyverse as though greyhawk isn't in it.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-25 at 10:41 AM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Needs moar hit dice.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    Yes. I agree. And that sandwich should be the party psion. Do not snack on him.
    Really, if there is ever a sandwich character in the party, you'd think they would be a bard, what with that racial bonus to Perform (Deliciousness)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Usually a wizard has to fill in the additional timestop time he has in executing most kill-plans. The longest I've ever taken for a fool-proof kill plan was 37 timestop rounds to kill a CR 60 cosmic entity. The spell slots gave me 40 so I had 6 full-round actions (chronotyryn take dual actions) to do nothing but wait. We can't be wasting time like that.
    [/endjoke]


    In all seriousness, the power of magic is not the strength of the class or even the spells themselves-but the vast number of options. It is possible to kill anything as long as you know what it is.
    A successful Mage-Killer cannot be passively defencive. The counterspells thing is a really good idea but it can be worked around. I suggest instead of improving the counterspells ability, to add additional abilities that limit magic in other ways. Some suggestions;

    Eldritch Silence: spend one of the spell slots to create a silence effect that applies only to magical incantations. Higher spell slots = wider silence.

    Instant negation: whenever the witch-hunter comes into contact with an ongoing magical effect, she can immediately spend a spell slot of equal level to negate it. This includes coming into contact with buffed creatures (in which case you can negate the buffs)

    Eldritch Warp; whenever a spell is cast in range, spend an equal level slot to reverse the intended effect. E.g. a spell meant to haste may slow. a spell meant to damage an enemy may heal an enemy-or damage a friend. a spell summoning a creature to attack an enemy will have the creature attack the caster. A spell shapeshifting the target into a powerful creature will shapeshift the target into a weak creature.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 5/ Divine Oracle 10.

    Immune to surprise. Mantle of spells means you are basically always prepared. I think we have nothing else to discuss. I even get a free daily wish. I love how people talk about the tippyverse as though greyhawk isn't in it.
    This doesn't add much to the dialogue. Apart from the fallacy that if one specific optimized build can counter a specific situation, then the whole idea is a wash. Not that I harbor any special fondness for anti-caster classes or in any way believe that hate is going to one day surpass magic.

    Anyway, as written, the Witch Killer is built on sand. Trying to fight magic without magic in the D&D world is like trying to fight guns without guns in our world. As a couple of people have already pointed out, the Wizard (or Cleric, Druid, Archivist, heck even Warlock) have ways of anticipating, countering or ignoring the WK's class abilities. The only way anti-caster classes are viable are at low-magic levels, when spellcasters have few items and spells per day, and the best tricks are still a ways off.
    Last edited by Catch; 2009-09-25 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    You need to add Hit Die and Spell List, although exactly why a being who hates and despises magic gets magic is beyond me.

    Also, there are waaay too many abilities crammed in between those two levels, and the amount of skills and weapon proficiencies are just opening the door to cheese. I know you're trying to beat the wizard, but cheese vs cheese isn't exactly a good thing.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    ^he has no spells, the slots are exclusively for counterspells (speaking of, I would give them spellcraft automaticly to use these slots and to ID casters)

    The magic restrictions are pretty bad (though paired with VoP might be decent, but still no fly) meaning the most use I can see this class getting is a foe for DMs to throw at the players when the DM thinks the players have to much money.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2009-09-25 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
    Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
    Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
    Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
    Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
    Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
    Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
    Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

    Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

    Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
    Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.
    I tweaked Counterspell. In fact, I buffed it almost ridiculously. Here's how it goes now:
    Round 0: Celerity is Counterspelled. Because a 20 Witch Killer can do that any number of times as a free action even if it's not his turn and even if he's flat-footed provided he has the spell slots. In fact, so can a 1 Witch Killer. Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch, because Witch Killer knows he's fire-immune and takes the 2d6 damage hit accordingly
    Round 1: Wizard wins initiative. Shapechange is Counterspelled; Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch. Quickened Forcecage is Counterspelled; Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch. Witch Killer charges with big weapon. Wizard dies.

    Or even better:
    Round 0: Celerity is Counterspelled. Wizard fails his save versus Destroy the Witch, and thus is banished for a year and a day.
    Last edited by Omegonthesane; 2009-09-25 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    The magic restrictions are pretty bad (though paired with VoP might be decent, but still no fly) meaning the most use I can see this class getting is a foe for DMs to throw at the players when the DM thinks the players have to much money.
    Run on the Air (Ex): At 6th level, a witch killer has pushed her body to limits not normally possible for mortals, and has found that magic is not needed to defy gravity. She is able to fly as if under the effect of a Fly spell for 1 minute per class level per day, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst.
    ...
    Walk on the Air (Ex): At 11th level, a witch killer requires less effort than before to step outside the limits of gravity, and may walk at a stately pace rather than sprinting like a man possessed while doing so. She may fly as if under an overland flight spell for 1 hour per class level, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst. She cannot use this effect and Run on the Air at the same time; the effects are separate. However, she may switch between them in mid air as a free action.
    I got the fly problem covered. If I've calculated right I've got it covered at the exact same level that Wizards get the spells being emulated.

    Should I double & spread out the Witch Killer's various bonuses, or just say he gets Vow of Poverty as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites (even the poverty part)? EDIT: Armor of Hate now scales a little faster, Improved Body scales about twice as fast, Witch Killer can grant people who die in her sight one use of Never Die per person per time they die, and she doesn't get exotic weapon proficiencies anymore.
    Last edited by Omegonthesane; 2009-09-25 at 12:53 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    How does the counterspelling work, precisely?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    How does the counterspelling work, precisely?
    If you cast a spell and have line of sight to the witch killer, he can burn a spell slot of the right level or higher to counterspell you as if he were a spellcaster with the same spell who'd identified the spell you just cast.

    Once you've got your head around that, Burn/Sear/Punish/Destroy the Witch and Pay Magic unto Magic shouldn't need further explanation.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Sorry, the witch-hunter still dies. The wizard becomes Incorporeal with the 5th level spell Wraithform, the 7th level spell Ghostform or by shapechanging into something incorporeal pre-fight.

    He is now utterly immune to all the witch-hunter's abilities because incorporeal entities are immune to nonmagical effects (which all the hunter's abilites are)
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2009-09-25 at 02:41 PM.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    The thing is that your deeper darkness idea for preparation wouldn't work anyways as true seeing would pierce it.

    also, turning incorporeal would only get you so far as the counterspelling ability isn't extraordinary. It seems to be in the same category as spells except reversed. If that is so, your incorporeal spells would still fail.
    Watch as it counters your celerity and then counters your teleport.
    Also, last time that I checked (although I don't have dungeonscape with me), trollbane allowed a Fort Save (although there are a couple psionic powers that ignore regeneration).

    In an arena, the only way for this thing to be beat by a caster is to have the caster either start the fight incorporeal or have a teleportation/incorporeality spell set to a contingency (counterspelling can't stop the activation of a contingency) and then use the effect to leave the target's line of sight before using time stop (which makes you undetectable and thus eliminates line of sight) and then unloading a series of effects that indirectly kill the witch hunter while overcoming regeneration.
    In a dungeon, a wizard only has to walk around a corner in order to cut off line of sight and cast their time stop, making this quite easy to do.

    However, all that the creator of this class has to do in order to shut down timestop (and yes, such a thing is possible) is to change counterspelling do that the witch hunter can counter any spell cast by a caster who possesses a line of sight or line of effect with the witch hunter (even when undetectable and running around with time stop, line of effects persist).

    Also, I must ask why you insist on the use of shapechange when the PHB II did everything but send out an affadavit screaming out "alter self, baleful polymorph, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange were all terrible and overpowered ideas. We apologize and ask that you not use them". The polymorph subschool of magic was obviously designed to replace these spells but whatever. I'll pretend in my mind's eye that you used Body of War and Barghest's Feast instead.

    One glaring problem with this class is its obvious invulnerability. There is no way to make this thing immune to wizards but vulnerable to fighters because wizards can pretty much summon fighters. Right now, it takes alot of work, many spells, and an unlucky fortitude save to kill this thing by any means.

    Furthermore, the gift of life ability seems to pretty much be an at will True Ressurection with the restriction that you must see the character die. That is powerful, perhaps too much so.

    edit: actually, there is a way to fix the invulnerability. Allow the regeneration to by bypassed by "any mundane weapon wielded by a creature without spellcasting ability, so long as neither the weapon nor creature are the effect or target of any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability." If you allow this vulnerability, I'd allow the witch hunter to retain their fast healing when they obtain regeneration. You may also want to state that the bonus from armor of hate does not apply against such attacks (as you have no hatred towards the mundane)
    Also, under class skills, you may want to list Use Magic Device as another skill you cannot select along with truespeak.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-09-25 at 04:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    *Cough* Never Die and Really Never Die seem broken... somehow.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Really never die doesn't seem that overpowered. Monks gain the same basic benefit when they become outsiders at 20th level. The only thing making this different is that you do lose penalties you have already accrued.

    Never die, however, is powerful. Perhaps require some action to recharge this ability after using either never die or gift of life, such as slaying a spellcaster or destroying magic items. That would make this guy killable by some means.

    Another Note: You mention bonus counterspell slots at one point (when listing what ability scores should be high) but forget to actually mention them in the description of the counterspell ability.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-09-25 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Quote Originally Posted by dentrag2 View Post
    *Cough* Never Die and Really Never Die seem broken... somehow.
    The assumption is that unless you're playing a party of Witch Killers and their fanboys, you have several ways to resurrect people for free at 17th level even without access to a cleric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Sorry, the witch-hunter still dies. The wizard becomes Incorporeal with the 5th level spell Wraithform, the 7th level spell Ghostform or by shapechanging into something incorporeal pre-fight.

    He is now utterly immune to all the witch-hunter's abilities because incorporeal entities are immune to nonmagical effects (which all the hunter's abilites are)
    There are two solutions to this.
    1) I insert a new line: "A witch hunter's extraordinary abilities all count as magical abilities whenever it is beneficial for them to do so. For example, against incorporeal creatures who would normally be immune to extraordinary abilities, Burn the Witch counts as a magical ability and therefore does the usual fire damage."

    2) I decide that this class is already very powerful and I'll settle for being able to pose a serious challenge to all wizards with only one arbitrary "You Die" weakness. Better than most encounters manage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Really never die doesn't seem that overpowered. Monks gain the same basic benefit when they become outsiders at 20th level. The only thing making this different is that you do lose penalties you have already accrued.

    Never die, however, is powerful. Perhaps require some action to recharge this ability after using either never die or gift of life, such as slaying a spellcaster or destroying magic items. That would make this guy killable by some means.
    BoVD Pain domain. Eternity of Torture. 9th level SoD which doesn't technically kill you and thus doesn't trigger Never Die.
    Also, let a barghest eat the witch hunter's soul, as outlined in an earlier attempt to kill him.
    Also also, Flesh to Stone. You're not technically dead so you can't return to life.
    Also also also, Soul Bind followed by using the witch killer's soul in an evil spell (BoVD). Kills anything in the universe forever and not even the gods can bring it back. You just have to kill it temporarily first.

    EoT and FtS are magic, so the witch killer is unlikely to fall, but the barghest method never allows SR or a Will save (although it has a 50% failure rate) and the Soul Bind method only requires magic once the target is too dead to see you to counterspell.
    Last edited by Omegonthesane; 2009-09-25 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Heh, and I've been completely ignored, of course *insert chirping crickets because I need their company* Edit: not quite ignored.

    Also, realize that turning incorporeal kind of takes away your ability to pick up the 5-ton rock as a titan (although telekinesis works as well).

    I agree with Catch that people kind of overestimate spellcasters. Not all of them have 10 levels of Divine Oracle. If they did, they would not all have 5 level of abjurant champion (or whatever that class from complete mage is), another class used to argue the superiority of mages. In fact, there are so many such PrCs that it is impossible that a single non-epic character has completed all of them and is thus prepared for the specific situations that each one allows you to overcome.
    Similarly, some casters prefer to play without cheese. they don't use polymorph or celerity voluntarily. They don't take divine metamagic and load up on nightsticks. While some argue that such players are "not optomized", the definition of optomized now seems to mean "drowning in cheese". It should be the average spellcaster who has no idea what they are going to run into that should be judged against other classes, not an optomizer's wet dream.
    One frequent example of how people overestimate spellcasters is with contingency. No matter what situation you give an optomizer, they say that the proper contingent spell can overcome it. The problem is that you can only have one such spell as a time, not five. Also, the same people who say fighting spellcasters works only at low levels repeatedly use timestop as proof (when there are much better examples as 6th and 7th level spells). Level 16 is not low-leveled. Not every caster can have Alacritous Cognition, Cunning Foresight (or whatever that feat from Exemplars of Evil is called), and the few dozen other feats that casters keep claiming to have (if you claim that quicken spell, extradimensional spell, and extend spell get you out of different situations, understand that not all casters will have all three). [/rant]
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-09-25 at 05:03 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    A class with d12 HD, full BAB (I assume the bad BAB scores [+20/+15/+15/+15] are typo's), who is constantly under haste from 7th level onwards?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class

    Not a typo.

    The improved Full attack class feature stops any attacks you make as part of a full attack from taking more than a -5 penalty to your full BAB (meaning that the third and fourth attacks only take a -5 penalty instead of a -10 and -15 penalty, respectively)
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