Should Weapon Finesse cost a feat?

[Djibriel]

Huh. I'm fine with Weapon Finesse as a feat. Dex is far more useful for a Halfling Rogue; Initiative, AC, a lot of Rogue skills all work with Dex. Taking Strength that low was a choice the player made to boost other attributes; for a melee character, low Strength should have disadvantages. Replacing every Str check with a Dex check for free doesn't do justice to a weakness the player him- or herself installed in the character; turning the Rogue more SAD should come at *some* cost. I don't think the "melee casters get the short end of the stick anyway" card really applies here since it seems the characters start at level 1; in my experience low-level 20 Dex Halfling Rogues, with or without WF, have no trouble outshining whatever caster at that level.

[Dsurion]

I like the way it's done in the Frank and K tomes, where most of the special combat options don't require feats to not suck at.

In other words,

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Bull Rush
Disarm
etc.

Don't have to eat up a feat each.

[Amphetryon]

Slippery slope, here.

"Weapon Finesse should not cost a feat; I should be able to swing my rapier gracefully instead of forcefully if I want."

morphs into:

"Power Attack should not cost a feat; I can swing my weapon forcefully, so I should be able to swing harder and less accurately if I want."

which gets followed up by:

"Leap Attack should not cost a feat; I already paid ranks in the Jump skill, so I should be able to swing really hard while jumping if I want."

I could go on, but you see my point.

[Eldariel]

Slippery slope, here.

"Weapon Finesse should not cost a feat; I should be able to swing my rapier gracefully instead of forcefully if I want."

morphs into:

"Power Attack should not cost a feat; I can swing my weapon forcefully, so I should be able to swing harder and less accurately if I want."

which gets followed up by:

"Leap Attack should not cost a feat; I already paid ranks in the Jump skill, so I should be able to swing really hard while jumping if I want."

I could go on, but you see my point.

Nah. Power Attack argument can be made but anything beyond that is so specialized it does indeed require a feat. Like Leap Attack isn't just jumping and attacking, it's a specialized kind of jump during a charge to increase the momentum of your swing.

Weapon Finesse, on the other hand, is how you wield Rapier anyways. Honestly, you shouldn't be able to wield Rapier with Str; strength has absolutely nothing to do with Rapier combat. The ability is inherent to the weapon; it should be such. Whether you wish to allow Str wielding such weapons or not is another question tho.

[Mikka]

Dex: +attack +damage +reflex saves +ac +initiativ

str: +attack +damage

. . right

[Eldariel]

str: +attack +damage

And combat maneuvers (very important for melee types) and 1.5* to damage. Don't worry, world won't end even if you can get Dex to damage and to hit; Str still has a place, especially since it is added to damage too.

[lesser_minion]

But why is using strength the standard. Shouldn't it be Dex is the standard, with Str as a side option?

Why should there be a standard?

On their own, neither strength nor dexterity stands out as an obvious choice for an ability score to add to attack rolls, and you could make a case for intelligence as well.

And the way hitpoints work, the connection between the strength of a fighter and the damage done by his attacks is a lot more tenuous than it appears -- Hitting hard isn't as important as hitting well (220 J delivered by an ice pick to the neck will kill. 220 kJ delivered by a battleaxe to the little toe will merely hurt).

So why not simply drop the standard altogether -- without a feat, you don't add ability score bonuses to attack or damage rolls. With the right feats, you can add either Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence.

You'd have to give certain character classes those feats for free, obviously, but once you've done that, I think you actually would be making the D&D combat system a saner place.

I'd prefer not to make this sort of thing inherent to particular weapons, since that gives mental ability scores the shaft, and I'd prefer not to do that.

[mangosta71]

How much training does every character receive before they even get their first character level? In all that time, dexterous characters never learn to effectively wield their weapons? It's compounded by the BAB requirement for Finesse - a rogue can't even take it at level 1. Having it as a feat makes it mandatory for dex-based classes, meaning that those classes have fewer customization options.

Perhaps, instead of removing the feat, simply make it a class feature for those whose classes make it mandatory. Rogue, ninja, scout, swordsage, etc. get it free at level 1 just like swashbucklers do. Adding dex to damage isn't significant given that all of those classes are adding damage dice from their special abilities anyway (as long as they're doing it right, anyway).

[Tavar]

And combat maneuvers (very important for melee types) and 1.5* to damage. Don't worry, world won't end even if you can get Dex to damage and to hit; Str still has a place, especially since it is added to damage too.

Very true. Plus, it's much easier to boost str-based damage, so much so that going dex based is noticeably inferior.

Oh, and note that the Dex=Ac fact is...misleading. Dex gives a bonus, yes, but it's much, much, much easier to boost non-dex related sources of AC, so that after the first level it's solidly in the favor of non-Dex reliant builds. Unless those builds put on heavy armor, but then they're not getting their full dex bonus, and it's pretty much a wash.

[Zeful]

On their own, neither strength nor dexterity stands out as an obvious choice for an ability score to add to attack rolls, and you could make a case for intelligence as well.

You can also make a case for Wisdom, being able to percieve an enemies attack, read their body language, are all important for discovering weakpoints that allow you to attack more effectively (as well as counter and dodge, but that's another discussion entirely). I could probably make a case for Charisma as well if I tried particularily hard, but it's a stretch at best.

So why not simply drop the standard altogether -- without a feat, you don't add ability score bonuses to attack or damage rolls. With the right feats, you can add either Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence.

It's a competence issue. A wizard at level one is profiecent enough to devote energy to cast level 1 spells without any exceptional talent in the field (compare to a bard, who is not), so why is a fighter (or Rogue, Barbarian, or any non-caster class) not competent enough in his field to fight with a specific style that increases his effectiveness in combat?

[kryan]

You could give certain classes certain versions of those feats as bonus feats. Fighter gets his pick, Ranger and Rogue get Dex, Paladin and Knight get Str. Cleric with War Domain maybe gets Wis. Normal Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards get none. It could work. Kind of an interesting idea.

Could do something similar with spells, to add an ability modifier to the save DC or something.

[ffone]

Dex: +attack +damage +reflex saves +ac +initiativ

str: +attack +damage

. . right

+1.

If it's balanced for Weapon Finesse to be free, and Dex to damage to be onr feat.....then it should be 'balanced' to have 1 feat which lets you use Str (instead of Dex) for AC bonus AND Initiative AND Reflex saves AND far more skills (including the ones that are already of most use to rogues, like Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, and Tumble).

[ffone]

Weapon Finesse, on the other hand, is how you wield Rapier anyways. Honestly, you shouldn't be able to wield Rapier with Str; strength has absolutely nothing to do with Rapier combat. The ability is inherent to the weapon; it should be such. Whether you wish to allow Str wielding such weapons or not is another question tho.

So if a character's Str mod exceeds his Dex mod by 5 or more, he's more effective using a rapier as an improvised weapon (say, bashing with the hilt) at a -4 penalty (for improvised weapons) than using it as an actual weapon as intended (pointy end goes into the other guy)?

[Eldariel]

So if a character's Str mod exceeds his Dex mod by 5 or more, he's more effective using a rapier as an improvised weapon (say, bashing with the hilt) at a -4 penalty (for improvised weapons) than using it as an actual weapon as intended (pointy end goes into the other guy)?

Pretty much, yeah. Seems fairly obvious to me; if you're bestially strong but lack the coordination of a mule, you're really best off using weapons with which you can simply smash at the general direction of your opponent and do horrific damage if you land hits (axes, maces, the like) rather than something with which you're supposed to unravel opponent's defenses with a series of small, precise strikes followed by landing hits with the only sharp part of the weapon.

Your strength simply doesn't help with landing that hit (though it will make the blow more telling); as such, you'll probably have an easier time hitting damagingly with the hilt and HULK SMASH than the pointy end.

[BRC]

Personally, I'm fine with giving Weapon Finesse free, I wouldn't give Dex to Damage though. Maybe with a feat, but not regularly.

Currently, Dex provides bonuses to Ranged attacks, AC, Reflex saves, lots of skills, and some melee attacks (with this rule).
Strength provides Melee attacks, melee damage, very few skills, endurance (rarely comes up in my games) and stuff like grapples, trips, bull rushes, ect, all of which rarely comes up.
Also, my mind has trouble with the idea of adding Dex to damage (I hit them in a more crucial spot) but not Strength (And by doing so the fact that I can bench press a cow is irrelevant!). While applying both of them would be silly from a game standpoint.

[Eldariel]

Personally, I'm fine with giving Weapon Finesse free, I wouldn't give Dex to Damage though. Maybe with a feat, but not regularly.

Currently, Dex provides bonuses to Ranged attacks, AC, Reflex saves, lots of skills, and some melee attacks (with this rule).
Strength provides Melee attacks, melee damage, very few skills, endurance (rarely comes up in my games) and stuff like grapples, trips, bull rushes, ect, all of which rarely comes up.
Also, my mind has trouble with the idea of adding Dex to damage (I hit them in a more crucial spot) but not Strength (And by doing so the fact that I can bench press a cow is irrelevant!). While applying both of them would be silly from a game standpoint.

I actually have no problem with applying both. Strength gets applied 1.5* with two-handers anyways, so finesse weapons getting like ½ Str and Dex to damage with the feat would work out fine. You can't efficiently pump two stats anyways.

And I find the combat maneuvers are of huge importance. Most solid melee builds want access to some manner of tripping, bull rushing or such all of which is str-based. This has many times dissuaded me from going Dex SAD unless all I care about is damage. Besides, Dex doesn't really increase your AC all that much due to armor caps anyways. Oh, and a vast number of monsters attack with Improved Grab or Trip or some variation there-of; it's very key to have high Str if you wish to fight those.

[BRC]

I actually have no problem with applying both. Strength gets applied 1.5* with two-handers anyways, so finesse weapons getting like ½ Str and Dex to damage with the feat would work out fine. You can't efficiently pump two stats anyways.

Perhaps, and with a Feat. Iv'e seen some players get lucky rolls and be able to do some nasty stacking.
1/2 Str and Dex maybe. I wouldn't let them do it with finessable 2-handers though.

And I find the combat maneuvers are of huge importance. Most solid melee builds want access to some manner of tripping, bull rushing or such all of which is str-based. This has many times dissuaded me from going Dex SAD unless all I care about is damage. Besides, Dex doesn't really increase your AC all that much due to armor caps anyways. Oh, and a vast number of monsters attack with Improved Grab or Trip or some variation there-of; it's very key to have high Str if you wish to fight those.

That's probably more about the type of game I tend to play then anything. My first group played somewhat rules-light, we didn't keep track of experience, mundane ammo, or weight (we generally just used common sense concerning what our character could lug around). Trips, bull rushes, disarms and grapples rarely showed up in combat, kind of as part of an unspoken agreement between all involved to keep things simple. It streamlined gameplay, and let those who hadn't really studied the rules still have a good time.
I was the only one of my new group who had previously played, so I transmitted the same general philosophy to them.

[Skorj]

Pretty much, yeah. Seems fairly obvious to me; if you're bestially strong but lack the coordination of a mule, you're really best off using weapons with which you can simply smash at the general direction of your opponent and do horrific damage if you land hits (axes, maces, the like) rather than something with which you're supposed to unravel opponent's defenses with a series of small, precise strikes followed by landing hits with the only sharp part of the weapon.

Your strength simply doesn't help with landing that hit (though it will make the blow more telling); as such, you'll probably have an easier time hitting damagingly with the hilt and HULK SMASH than the pointy end.

Rapiers are not fencing foils, and strength is very much a part of fighting with a rapier. Even with foils, fencers have some of the most demanding conditioning of any sport, and are very succeptable to lifelong sport-related injury. Fencing lets you substitute lower body strengh for some of your upper body strength, but that's still strength.

When rapier-against-rapier DEX plays a large part, because parrying there works differently from other weapons (you stop needing STR to parry). Rapier against a guy in broadsword and fullplate? Strength helps in that case. (But a fantasy feat that lets you substitute DEX for the to-hit portion eben there is quite reasonable.) Also, a rapier blade is pretty strong - they simply weren't used until the quality of steel allowed you to use your full strength in attacking without damaging the weapon.

Strength was quite important to fighting with a gladius or other short sword as well.

[kryan]

Dex: +attack +damage +reflex saves +ac +initiativ

str: +attack +damage

. . right

+1.

If it's balanced for Weapon Finesse to be free, and Dex to damage to be onr feat.....then it should be 'balanced' to have 1 feat which lets you use Str (instead of Dex) for AC bonus AND Initiative AND Reflex saves AND far more skills (including the ones that are already of most use to rogues, like Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, and Tumble).

You're both ignoring the other things Str is used on - Trip, Grapple, 1.5x multiplier on damage, etc. And ignoring Dex's limitations - mostly in the form of not being able to take great advantage of high Dex if you're wearing heavy armor.

For Core melee, Str is still better even if you can get Dex to attack and damage for free.

[Eldariel]

Rapiers are not fencing foils, and strength is very much a part of fighting with a rapier. Even with foils, fencers have some of the most demanding conditioning of any sport, and are very succeptable to lifelong sport-related injury. Fencing lets you substitute lower body strengh for some of your upper body strength, but that's still strength.

When rapier-against-rapier DEX plays a large part, because parrying there works differently from other weapons (you stop needing STR to parry). Rapier against a guy in broadsword and fullplate? Strength helps in that case. (But a fantasy feat that lets you substitute DEX for the to-hit portion eben there is quite reasonable.) Also, a rapier blade is pretty strong - they simply weren't used until the quality of steel allowed you to use your full strength in attacking without damaging the weapon.

Strength was quite important to fighting with a gladius or other short sword as well.

Well, fair enough. Short Swords seem obvious enough, but with Rapier, isn't Str the part you'd use for damage and Dex the part you'd need for landing the hits? I mean, yeah, it's demanding as all manners of combat is, of course, but wouldn't that on the other hand land under Con? What I'm saying is, raising your Rapier above your head and bringing it down on your opponent á la broadsword isn't like to cause all that much damage no matter how strong you are; there's one part in the sword that's designed to deal damage and landing hits with that one part does require finesse.

Str for damage, sure. Armor as DR and all that jazz, then Str counts against penetrating the armor and so on. Seems fine. But Str to hit? I always perceive Str-based hitting as simple taking fast, powerful swings at the opponent; the stronger you are, the faster the hits and the better they hit. Such swings don't really feel useful with a Rapier tho.

[kryan]

In reality, basically every ability modifier would come into play in a sword swing. The system is abstracting this. The fact that rapiers "seem" more dexterous, then, seems like a valid argument for them using Dex, even if this is not the reality.

[ffone]

Pretty much, yeah. Seems fairly obvious to me; if you're bestially strong but lack the coordination of a mule, you're really best off using weapons with which you can simply smash at the general direction of your opponent and do horrific damage if you land hits (axes, maces, the like) rather than something with which you're supposed to unravel opponent's defenses with a series of small, precise strikes followed by landing hits with the only sharp part of the weapon.

Your strength simply doesn't help with landing that hit (though it will make the blow more telling); as such, you'll probably have an easier time hitting damagingly with the hilt and HULK SMASH than the pointy end.

What about against creatures whose AC is mostly natural armor...wouldn't strength still help you push through the natural armor, things like that? (Or of a rapier is all about hitting the right 'weak point' of the natural armor character, what if it's an ooze?)

Honestly, discussions like this are doomed to Opinion, b/c

1. Strength, Dexterity, and the other stats are abstractions which 'cluster' high-dimension beings (people and other creatures) into 6 dimensions, and just happen to have names which everyone has their own vernacular interpretation of (esp. with Intelligence vs Wisdom). If they were named Ability A, B, C, D, E, F instead, it would have zero effect on mechanics, but would it change our opinions?

For example, a cleric's melee touch attack spells will (assumign he lacks Weapon Finesse) use Strength. We could complain that this is unrealistic and should clearly be Dexterity, or we could infer from this fact that DnD Strength actually includes some of the attributes (like how quickly your muscles can propel your arm, or however you want to roleplay it) which we otherwise thought of as Dexterity.

2. Attack rolls collapse both the 'targeting' and 'penetration' aspects of attacking into a single roll (with damage also reflecting part of this, perhaps, likewise threat rolls and precision damage) and leave to interpretation questions of misses due to 'missing' the target vs failing to penetrate (natural) armor (and things like slashing attacks which become less-damaging 'crushing' attacks due to impact against armor, etc.)

Attacking probably involves both what most of us think of as vernacular 'strength' and 'dexterity', so the mechanics which simplify an attack to only use one or the other are sort of doomed if you demand too much 'realism' (and 'realism' almost always involves your own personal interpretation of how the rules reflect the game-world reality).

For example, let's say you have the ability to throw weapons without provoking AoOs, from an Arrow Mind spell or whatever. If your Dex >> your Str and you lack WF, and you have Quick Draw and only a bunch of nonmagical weapons, you're better of drawing and 'throwing' them at an adjacent foe (to use Dex) rather than 'melee' attacking (to use Str), odd as it may seem.

[BRC]

In reality, basically every ability modifier would come into play in a sword swing. The system is abstracting this. The fact that rapiers "seem" more dexterous, then, seems like a valid argument for them using Dex, even if this is not the reality.

Hrmm, lets see...
Strength: penetrating armor, dealing damage, overpowering parries and the like.
Dex: Putting your sword in the right place, avoiding parries and dodges, footwork, ect.
Constitution: Wouldn't really affect an individual swing, but over many swings not getting fatigue would be a big deal (I did a little fencing once ,and it was somewhat tiring. I have a feeling swinging around a big hunk of metal, while wearing a big hunk of metal, is going to tire you out pretty quickly)
Wisdom: Includes being alert and noticing things, so good for reacting, predicting where the enemy is going to go, noticing chinks in armor.
Intelligence: Knowing the particular style the enemy is using, identifying weak points, maybe noticing patterns or making logical decisions (They are holding a big mace and are slightly off balance every time they swing).
Charisma: bluffing and feinting I guess. Charisma is also said to include confidence, so maybe that could help?

[ffone]

Str for damage, sure. Armor as DR and all that jazz, then Str counts against penetrating the armor and so on. Seems fine. But Str to hit? I always perceive Str-based hitting as simple taking fast, powerful swings at the opponent; the stronger you are, the faster the hits and the better they hit. Such swings don't really feel useful with a Rapier tho.

Also, maybe Str helps you 'crash' through your opponent's would-be parries, or push back from your parries of his attacks to then make your own (trope movie scene - two guys parry each other, and struggle to push each other's swords against each other, yadda yadda).

You're both ignoring the other things Str is used on - Trip, Grapple, 1.5x multiplier on damage, etc. And ignoring Dex's limitations - mostly in the form of not being able to take great advantage of high Dex if you're wearing heavy armor.

For Core melee, Str is still better even if you can get Dex to attack and damage for free.

re: 1.5 Str multiplier - but if Dex can be added to damage, what if you use a 2-hander or TWF? Doesn't that feat for Dex damage in Shadow Hand stances/weapons actually let you apply full Dex to off-hand attacks, in effect making it 2x?

And even if you remove the 1.5x, it's only costing you a few points of Str damage.

re: trip, grapple, etc. The defender in a trip can use Dex instead of Str. A char escaping a grapple can use Escape Artist instead of Str - which, as a skill, can can be improved with ranks and-or cheap skill-boosting, items. Also, Dex improves touch AC, helping you dodge the trip and grapple attempts entirely.
So bringing up grapples and trips might actually favor Dex over Str even more.
At high level play, a ring of Freedom of Movement negates grapples entirely. (And as a corner case for high optimization, there's a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel whichlets you get out of prone for free. Since it requires 12 tumble ranks, this again favors a Dex build for avoiding trips.) I'm not claiming no char would still prefer Str, just that it's being reduced to debatable corner cases, and thus not well balanced for most situations and games.

Yeah, there are advantages to Str....but if you're any character other than one who likes to initiate grapples and trips....are these situational modifiers really better than modifiers to ranged attacks and AC (inc. touch AC), and Reflex, and initiative, and so many skills?

Also, once you can afford to fly at high levels, tripping and grappling become less of an issue, and the Str based skills are mostly redundant.

[kryan]

You've just highlighted many of the things wrong with Core melee*. I don't disagree with you.

That said, I'm stating, flat-out, that even if you could get Dex to attack and damage for free, Str is better. Because Core melee's options are ubercharging, trip-lockdown, or Dungeoncrashing. Everything else basically doesn't really work all that well. And all three of those depend upon or work better with Str, due the 1.5*Str multiplier and/or the fact that you use Str to use combat maneuvers.

The ability to use Dex in defending yourself from combat maneuvers does nothing for your ability to attack others. Defense is important but offense is more so, in this game. So no, that does not appreciably change things, IMO.

* by Core melee, I mean any class that primarily fights using the Core rules for melee combat. This includes Fighters, but also Ninjas and Swashbucklers. I'm primarily excluding Psychic Warriors, Meldshapers, and Martial Adepts from this.

[ffone]

That said, I'm stating, flat-out, that even if you could get Dex to attack and damage for free, Str is better. Because Core melee's options are ubercharging, trip-lockdown, or Dungeoncrashing. Everything else basically doesn't really work all that well. And all three of those depend upon or work better with Str, due the 1.5*Str multiplier and/or the fact that you use Str to use combat maneuvers.

The thing is, once you have Dex to damage, you don't really need to be Str based to be an ubercharger. Most of its pieces only require, what, Str 13 (Power Attack) or maybe 15. You can 1:2 power attack with a rapier, I believe (just not add 1-1/2 Str) or there's always the spiked chain for Finesse and two-handedness (which is great for other reasons) or the elven courtblade (also exotic, more damage but otherwise spiked chain is better).

Once the damage modifiers are high enough, a rapier's wide threat range pulls it ahead of most two-handed and reach weapons with less threat-ness and higher base damage (there's the khopesh or scythe for a tiny bit more damage for non-finessers with the same threat-ness).

This is what's so depressing about advice and discussions at GitP in general. They tend to distill to "melee is horrible, primary prepared spellcasters are everything ("Tier 1s"), and anything other than the ubercharging tripper reach Warblade with the following manuevers is beneath consideration" (so we should balance all physical attacking rules around this build, and give it lots of extras to help it vs the Tier 1s.)

Maybe that's correct in some mathematical, game theoretic sense or keeps PvP interesting in 2010. But even if it is, it's not very practical advice. Most groups are not that optimized. And the fact is, lots of people choose to play physical characters and don't get outshined by the party casters (I guess their players just aren't as smart as you guys or whatever). I virtually always find that more people want to play attackers than clerics or wizards, esp. male players, despite the latter supposedly being letter, so rebalance isn't necessary for diversity's sake. And it would be rather boring game design to be steered towards one build for all melee chars, b/c of a 'fix' that improves it even more and leaves the others in the dust. Would we really want one of the six ability scores to only be justified by tripper builds?

Also, I think you and many GitPers tend to underrate defense...perhaps b/c you're all so skilled that PC defeat is almost off the table, whereas for many players it 'still' matters.

And anyway, I disagee about the tradeoff. For the guy who initiates trip and grapples, Str would still be more important (but being good at it would come at a high cost of not achieving Dex SAD, so that it might not seem like 'the way to go' anymore). But for the guy who just deals damage, (and tries to avoid trips and grapples), the Dex build would become better with these rules. Even if you don't care about defense, Dex modifies hide, move silently,and initiative, and uberchargers like to win surprise rounds and-or initiative...

[Eldariel]

The thing is, once you have Dex to damage, you don't really need to be Str based to be an ubercharger. Most of its pieces only require, what, Str 13 (Power Attack) or maybe 15. You can 1:2 power attack with a rapier, I believe (just not add 1-1/2 Str) or there's always the spiked chain for Finesse and two-handedness (which is great for other reasons) or the elven courtblade (also exotic, more damage but otherwise spiked chain is better).

Rapier is only one-handable. And it's still not worth a feat. Besides, the advantages of Dex-focus are pretty much lost in a Charger build since you use Shock Trooper anyways, let alone the fact that you're giving up portion a base damage which can grow notably with multiplies (.5*Str) and you can't use e.g. Trips (rather easy to add to a charger) with it. You're pretty much reduced to an Initiative bonus.

Once the damage modifiers are high enough, a rapier's wide threat range pulls it ahead of most two-handed and reach weapons with less threat-ness and higher base damage (there's the khopesh or scythe for a tiny bit more damage for non-finessers with the same threat-ness).

Uh, what? There are high crit range weapons at all sizes and shapes; what about Falchion?

This is what's so depressing about advice and discussions at GitP in general. They tend to distill to "melee is horrible, primary prepared spellcasters are everything ("Tier 1s"), and anything other than the ubercharging tripper reach Warblade with the following manuevers is beneath consideration" (so we should balance all physical attacking rules around this build, and give it lots of extras to help it vs the Tier 1s.)

Wait, what?

And anyway, I disagee about the tradeoff. For the guy who initiates trip and grapples, Str would still be more important (but being good at it would come at a high cost of not achieving Dex SAD, so that it might not seem like 'the way to go' anymore). But for the guy who just deals damage, (and tries to avoid trips and grapples), the Dex build would become better with these rules. Even if you don't care about defense, Dex modifies hide, move silently,and initiative, and uberchargers like to win surprise rounds and-or initiative...

Nobody plays an Übercharger. If someone plays a Charger, I can promise you he'll want access to Trips and Grapples. The builds involve Rage, for example, and Enlarge Person; things that are awesome but don't really synergize with Dex focus. Further, Trips in particular provide a melee type with great BFC aspects he'd otherwise miss. I'm pretty darn sure optimization level has nothing to do with Dex vs. Str as base-melee. People not optimizing will go with whatever fits their fancy anyways, and optimizers will use whichever is more convenient for their build; there are builds where Str-focus is optimal and ones where Dex-focus is optimal just as it should be. Right now, everything but precision damage builds are Str-focus simply because it's better (sans Shadow Blade).

[Coidzor]

This is what's so depressing about advice and discussions at GitP in general. They tend to distill to "melee is horrible, primary prepared spellcasters are everything ("Tier 1s"), and anything other than the ubercharging tripper reach Warblade with the following manuevers is beneath consideration" (so we should balance all physical attacking rules around this build, and give it lots of extras to help it vs the Tier 1s.)

We must not frequent the same threads very often because the melee discussions I've run into are not at all like what you describe, even accounting for the hyperbole.

And anyway, I disagee about the tradeoff. For the guy who initiates trip and grapples, Str would still be more important (but being good at it would come at a high cost of not achieving Dex SAD, so that it might not seem like 'the way to go' anymore). But for the guy who just deals damage, (and tries to avoid trips and grapples), the Dex build would become better with these rules. Even if you don't care about defense, Dex modifies hide, move silently,and initiative, and uberchargers like to win surprise rounds and-or initiative...

Heck, if SAD is really that big of a thing, just be a Factotum with font of Inspiration a couple of times and a bumped up Intelligence. Then you can do all kinds of tricks too in addition to tripping with your int and getting int to hit and damage.

Ways and means and things.

[Greenish]

(And as a corner case for high optimization, there's a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel whichlets you get out of prone for free. Since it requires 12 tumble ranks, this again favors a Dex build for avoiding trips.)

Your Dex score doesn't affect your Tumble ranks in any way. Also, getting up from prone as a free action doesn't protect you from being tripped in the first place.

[Coidzor]

Having high enough ranks to get in through someone's guard with tumble and thus avoid being tripped though, that can be handy.