Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"

[Closet_Skeleton]

Still, I think if I were to use her, I'd get a Lelith or a Succubus model, somehow model the triskele on her and just claim it's Jain Zar...

Except that Pheonix lords can't show any skin due to not having any and all.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Except that Pheonix lords can't show any skin due to not having any and all.

Painting it as a skintight bodysuit solves that problem.

[Craftworld]

Except that Pheonix lords can't show any skin due to not having any and all.

Where does it say that? Is there fluff that I am unaware of? Everytime a Pheonix Lord dies, eventually another Eldar finds their armor somewhere. That Eldar has skin. Now, the armor covers up their skin so that may be a different story.

[Craftworld]

Curse the double post that I committed. I accidently posted the same dern thing twice so I deleted the text and posted this...sorry.

[Wraith]

I'm actually mostly asking because I've noticed there are quite a few people around here who have armies of 3,000+ points and are quite willing to play at such sizes, too, so I got thinking that a Phoenix Lord might make an interesting addition if I ever expanded my army to more than 2,000 points.

I have played 3000 points of Eldar a couple of times, and at 3000+ points I would call a Phoenix Lord (in my case, Karandras and Maugan Ra on separate occasions) is an indulgence rather than a sound tactical choice. For as long as they're alive they will make one unit terrifyingly dangerous at what they do..... But you've got another 2500 points worth of army that also needs to be protected and supported.
If you really have nothing better to spend 200 points on then they're kinda fun and will do their job quite nicely, but I was forever wondering whether or not I should have taken something else to fulfil a specific role rather than making one existing unit - who worked perfectly well already - into an even juicier target for comparatively little innovation.

Same question as above - do you think [Karandras] survives long enough in close combat (or kills enough to not have to worry about enemies striking back)?

Sorry, I though I had taken this into account when I suggested using him with a bodyguard - Scorpions for preference, even if they do make for a very expensive way to get ablative wounds for Karandras.
Use them (Or Guardians, though that tends to be a waste of his great Exarch Powers if you do that) to take the hits for him, and then he will single handedly chew through everything in his way in order to win the combat overall. Without that buffer however, he's usually toast unless you get lucky and manage to ambush a VERY small squad of Shooty-Terminators, or something that he can take out alone in a blaze of suicidal glory.

I was thinking Asurmen was likely the best of all the Phoenix Lords, simply on account of him actually having an Invulnerable save.

A fair and accurate comment - in an 'All Comers' list, Asurmen probably is the best choice through sheer survivability and because his Aspect is 1) cheap and 2) a Troops Choice, an advantage that the other 'Lords lack. As support to another unit, he's not all that bad after all. But as I said above, 200+ points to slightly improve 1 unit out of 6? 8? 10?
In terms of his actual fighting ability, I suppose the question that you are asking really is, do you really want to pay over 200 points for a reasonable fighter with a s4, Master Crafted "Force Weapon"? That's what sets him apart from all of the other Eldar who lack such an ability, and yet most people will probably say 'No'. I can't say that I blame them.

Fuegan, well, as I said, most things with a good chance to wound him will not allow FNP. Though yeah, I see how him detaching from the unit and operating on his own henceforth might be quite useful.

Half a dozen Fire Dragons, Exarch with Dragonbreath Flamer, Wave Serpent and Fuegan; I've only used this combination twice as I only recently bought a Fuegan model, but it has yet to let me down.

Unless I'm underestimating the Autarch, and having one (on a jetbike, armed with a lance and mandiblasters) would suffice to make sending a Guardian Jetbike unit into close combat a good idea? I'm definitely considering an Autarch equipped just like that...

Not really, to be honest. The Autarch himself would be fine, but the rest of the unit are still just Guardians and overall I think you'd come off second best against anything even vaguely combat-orientated, like Ork Boyz. I might be thinking like a pessimist, but experience has taught be that Guardians of any kind shouldn't be that close to the enemy if at all possible!

In a unit of Shining Spears that included an Exarch and the Hit & Run ability, you'd be onto something much more powerful. The additional Lance attacks would almost guarantee you destroying most of the enemy unit, rather than the Autarch killing a few models and his unit 'maybe' killing a few more.

Amongst Guardian Jetbikes, you'd probably have more fun giving an Autarch either a Reaper Launcher or a Fusion Gun so that the unit can remain effective at range where they are safest (and don't have to worry about getting stuck in a tarpit while they really want to be streaking off to claim an objective in the last turn, which is what they are best at.)

Though the paintjob of that first one is absolutely magnificent.

Jain Zar's official colour scheme from 2nd Edition was even better, to my mind - with deep crimson mask and red/black/white striped mane. Each to their own, of course, but having said that I agree with Closet_Skeleton: by accident or design she is just an ugly model.

Where does it say that? Is there fluff that I am unaware of? Everytime a Pheonix Lord dies, eventually another Eldar finds their armor somewhere. That Eldar has skin. Now, the armor covers up their skin so that may be a different story.

A short story was printed in one of the GW magazines - Inferno!, I think.
It specifically described a beaten-up Karandras stumbling out of a Portal and into one his shrines, where upon he 'absorbed' a nearby Exarch. The process sealed up the bullet holes and other tears in his armour, through which "nothing" could be seen - the Phoenix Lords, after 10,000 years of incessant war, are sentient suits of armour powered by dozens of spirit stones. The Eldar warrior that puts on the armour is completely and utterly absorbed by it, body and soul.

[Craftworld]

"Like the Exarchs of the Warrior Aspects, the Pheonix Lords are immortal after a fashion. When one of the Pheonix Lords dies, another Eldar dons his armor to take his place and thus his identity. In this way, should a Pheonix Lord be vanquished, thy ar ultimately reborn into a fresh cycle of existence. No matter how many individuals a Pheonix Lord may have been, their mind is foreve the same, driven by the dominant personality of the first and greatest to wear the suit."
-Codex: Eldar page 54 paragraph 4
If the suit were sentient then it would just walk around and take shots and just keep on coming. An Eldar feels pain so that is why the one in the suit dies thus allowing another to take his/her place. The mind is always the same because Asurman, Jain Zar, Baharroth, Karandras, Fuegan, and Maugan Ra were the first and the best of all of the Eldar Exarchs.
On a semi related note, what does everyone think of GW making in the next copy of the Codex Eldar about Pheonix Lords for Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, and the new Eldar Aspect that recently got released by Forge World? I personally would like to see new Lords thrown into the mix when they reprint the codex.

[Ogremindes]

Part of the mythology is that Phoenix Lords are animate suits of armour. Whether that's true or not (as far as truth in a fictional universe goes), that's what at least some eldar believe. So that kinda precludes Jain Zar from showing skin.

[Craftworld]

To be honest, I wouldn't care if someone made a succubus model into Jain Zar because they hated the model, even in a tournament and it does all come down to the Eldar (player) with the models and what they believe about the fluff.

[Tarinaky]

I've been going through the rules carefully and playing a couple of games against myself to get the hang of the new edition. One of the things that I just don't 'get' however is the 'Annihilation' mission.

There seems to be no relation between Kill Points and the value of the squad, which seems to very heavily penalize armies like IG and favouritise Space Marines since a Space Marine army can, very easily, kill twice as many squads as the enemy and -still- be outnumbered 2:1 or worse.

I must be missing something, right?

[Ogremindes]

I haven't got the codex, but don't guard have a rule that lets them merge squads? And other horde armies can just use big squads.

[Craftworld]

A. Space Marines cannot kill twice their number unless they get lucky and you make dumb moves...or their general is just plain and flat out better than you. It all depends. I have tabled marines and I have been near tabled by them. The Guard are also debatably one of the best Codices out there right now because they can just gun down other codices with the sheer cheap fire power they can put out from so many tanks and Guardsmen. I have been tabled by Guard more often then tabled by Marines but that may be due to the meta where I play. I just personally find it unlikely that Marines can kill twice their number in competative games, and most of the 5th ed. codices are balenced enough that with the right list you can go toe to toe with the other competitors.
I may be wrong here.

Annihilation makes everything simpler but it penalizes the more Elite armies such as the Eldar, and Marine Variants. If anything Guard are fine and nigh benefit from it. They can just poor fire into Elite Squads until they flee or are just craters while taking the losses with a shrug.

[Partof1]

If I were to do a Night Lords army, which codex would be best for a counts-as thing? I figure Blood angels, due to prevelance of Jump Packs, but Red thirst may not be too fitting.

[Incomp]

You could easily fluff the Red Thirst as a chaos-y berserk bloodlust sort of deal.

That being said, the night lords love their stealth, which is something Blood Angels don't have a lot of. I would fluff Shrike as a Night Lords chaos lord, and go with vanilla marines.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Kill points serve as a balancing mechanism. Without them, there would be almost no downside to taking minimum sized squads of everything, allowing you to claim/contest more objectives and giving you more flexibility in shooting and assault.
However, in some cases you instead get people taking large, tough, powerful, expensive units; which is where it starts to lose its balancing factor. These units can usually be stalled or avoided, however, so overall kill points are a good mechanic.

[Partof1]

Shrike has lightning claws, right? He could be fluffed as Zso Sahaal, one of those who claim leadership of the chapter.

[Cheesegear]

There seems to be no relation between Kill Points and the value of the squad, which seems to very heavily penalize armies like IG and favouritise Space Marines since a Space Marine army can, very easily, kill twice as many squads as the enemy and -still- be outnumbered 2:1 or worse.

Yes. That's why 'Making Points Back' is the dumbest phrase to hit the internet for quite some time, and it's why small, high-cost units are really, really bad. It's also one of the few downsides of MSU-Mechanised.

However, the prevailing opinion of a lot of high-tier players tends to be that you should aim to table your opponent every single game, therefore, making every single game you play 'Annihilation'. I'll probably make a post with this point in it in the near future.

Finally got my hands on Siege of Vraks III; Hector Rex is a beast.

[Wraith]

If the suit were sentient then it would just walk around and take shots and just keep on coming. An Eldar feels pain so that is why the one in the suit dies thus allowing another to take his/her place. The mind is always the same because Asurman, Jain Zar, Baharroth, Karandras, Fuegan, and Maugan Ra were the first and the best of all of the Eldar Exarchs.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not arguing against the statement that it sounds silly or nonsensical, because it clearly does.

It's just a stated fact that some non-Codex sources have said that Phoenix Lords - at least, the old and powerful ones, if not the newest 'additions' - have no physical body within their armour and are essentially a form of super-powered Wraithguard.

On a semi related note, what does everyone think of GW making in the next copy of the Codex Eldar about Pheonix Lords for Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, and the new Eldar Aspect that recently got released by Forge World? I personally would like to see new Lords thrown into the mix when they reprint the codex.

I'd say, "It's about bloody time" but would reserve any further comment until I knew what they looked like and what they did. Phoenix Lords have the potential to be really good (Fuegan) or really poor (Baharroth) and I'd be upset if the models and rules were not very good after all this time.
More importantly though, 2 of those 3 Aspects I have never used and don't have much intention of using. Having the full set would be nice from an O.C.D. point of view, but from a gaming point of view I doubt that it would make all that much difference.

So what would I think of new Phoenix Lords.... Is there one word that means 'sort-of optimistic apathy'?

Yes. That's why 'Making Points Back' is the dumbest phrase to hit the internet for quite some time.

To be fair, "Dumb" is harsh because, once upon a time, it was relevant. "Grossly outdated" is probably the kindest way you could put it, mind.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If the suit were sentient then it would just walk around and take shots and just keep on coming.

They do. Hence T4 and eternal warrior and all that.

Pheonix Lords used to eat Exarchs to repair damage to themselves rather than have the exarch put the armour on. They may have changed that but I was going by the fluff I remembered.

If I were to do a Night Lords army, which codex would be best for a counts-as thing? I figure Blood angels, due to prevelance of Jump Packs, but Red thirst may not be too fitting.

If only there was some kind of book designed for using traitor space marines with infiltrating elite troops. One could only wish...

Night Lords don't spam jump packs. None of the original legions had jump packs in large numbers. Night Lords use slightly more raptors (and bikes according to the third ed book) than other traitor legions but they're still supporting units.

No traitor legion actually has Raptors anyway. Raptors are a seperate group made up of guys from multiple legions. If you had a mostly jump pack chaos army then they wouldn't be a Night Lords army even if they had Night Lords geneseed and armour painted in Night Lords colours. They'd be a Raptor army, possibly one with Night Lords allies but calling an army with only a few Night Lords in it a Night Lords army would be like calling an army with one unit of berserkers a Khorne army.

[Zorg]

In Path of the Warrior it is explained that a Phoenix Lord absorbs an Exarch's life force and keeps it within them (the only way an Exarch can achieve peace), but does not gain their memories or skills as an Exarch does - Karandras is Karandras and only Karandras, while Exrach Bob is made up of Jim, Dave, Steve and Kylie in one crazy gestalt consciousness.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

They do. Hence T4 and eternal warrior and all that.

Pheonix Lords used to eat Exarchs to repair damage to themselves rather than have the exarch put the armour on. They may have changed that but I was going by the fluff I remembered.



If only there was some kind of book designed for using traitor space marines with infiltrating elite troops. One could only wish...

Night Lords don't spam jump packs. None of the original legions had jump packs in large numbers. Night Lords use slightly more raptors (and bikes according to the third ed book) than other traitor legions but they're still supporting units.

No traitor legion actually has Raptors anyway. Raptors are a seperate group made up of guys from multiple legions. If you had a mostly jump pack chaos army then they wouldn't be a Night Lords army even if they had Night Lords geneseed and armour painted in Night Lords colours. They'd be a Raptor army, possibly one with Night Lords allies but calling an army with only a few Night Lords in it a Night Lords army would be like calling an army with one unit of berserkers a Khorne army.

Or it's an Night lords army that have stolen/captured/manufactured severeal jump packs since they think it is a good way of getting around and that it fits their combat style.

On top of that Shrike would be prefct since he does in fact not give your army Jump packs, he gives them Fleet. And it seemed Shrike were the option mostly discussed.

[lord_khaine]

On a semi related note, what does everyone think of GW making in the next copy of the Codex Eldar about Pheonix Lords for Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, and the new Eldar Aspect that recently got released by Forge World? I personally would like to see new Lords thrown into the mix when they reprint the codex.

I would really prefer if the current Phoenix lords instead were made worth using.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Or it's an Night lords army that have stolen/captured/manufactured severeal jump packs since they think it is a good way of getting around and that it fits their combat style.

Its still a Raptor army, not a Night Lords army.

On top of that Shrike would be prefct since he does in fact not give your army Jump packs, he gives them Fleet. And it seemed Shrike were the option mostly discussed.

Shrike lets you infiltrate one unit and is better off doing it with hammernators. Codex Chaos Space Marines lets you infiltrate 3 and load them up with special weapons.

If you want to play a Night Lords army with codex marines you have to take Shrike, Sicarus and come up with an excuse for why you have scouts.

Index Astartes also states that Night Lords use a variety of cult troops. Maybe those are allies but so are Raptors.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Yes. That's why 'Making Points Back' is the dumbest phrase to hit the internet for quite some time

That's as may be, but I've not found a better phrase that means "It was as effective or better as I thought it would be, given its points cost" that wasn't clumsy and long.

Suggestions?

[Arcanoi]

That's as may be, but I've not found a better phrase that means "It was as effective or better as I thought it would be, given its points cost" that wasn't clumsy and long.

Suggestions?

"Worth its points"?

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Its still a Raptor army, not a Night Lords army.

I'm confused. If what you say is true, then the Chaos word for assult marine or simply model wearing jump pack is a Raptor. By that logic a BA army with only models with jump pack would be a Assult marine army, not a BA army? And that's just nonsense. If 50 Night lords decides to put on Jump packs they are still Night lords, just that they are Night lords belonging to the unit type commonly refered to as Raptors. If they only had bikers they would be a Night lords army with everybody on a bike and thus belonging to the unit type bike.

Or is this a case were you are confusing fluff with unit names?

If you want to play a Night Lords army with codex marines you have to take Shrike, Sicarus and come up with an excuse for why you have scouts.

Index Astartes also states that Night Lords use a variety of cult troops. Maybe those are allies but so are Raptors.

Scouts are Night lords that have dropped Power amour to be better at sneaking. Not hard to explain.

It's called fluff, it actually makes the armies more intresting

[Borgh]

so Leman Russ Tanks.
After looking at the codex I quite like them but was overwhelmed by the flavors they come in but here is my view on it:

Vanilla Battle Cannon: Pie plates are fun, ap3 is fun. also Cheap

Exterminator: Don't really see the point of this one. Less AP and strenght then the vanillagun but a bit more focussed.

Vanquiser (the can opener cannon): potential to be awesome but too high a probablilty of everything missing for me.

Eradicator Nova Gun: I like it but its more situational then the vanilla cannon. also ap 4 vs ap 3 hurts its chances for being awesome. (damn you power armour)

Demolisher: hehehehehe. Pie plate, ap2, massive strenght. dunno if its lack of range hurts but in the battle i usually fight this won't really matter. my favorite.

Punisher: SO MUCH DAKKA. sadly its lack of any kind of armour penetration makes me sad, especially at the increased points cost. Rending or ap 5 would have made this gun awesome.

Executioner: I like this one. The amount of blasts means most likely something will be hit and its ap makes it a good termie/meganob killer. No instakill agianst multiwound models hampers it too, even more sad its also the most expensive one, a whopping 40 points above the vanillagun.


In most games I think I'll bring a demolisher or two and a vanilla gun for a nice mix of long range rire and sheer explosive oh-im-sorry-was-that-unit-expensive? firepower.

[Renegade Paladin]

I always field one battle tank and either an Executioner or Demolisher. Executioners are expensive, but it's totally worth the look on a Marine player's face as he says some variation on "How many plasma cannon shots?"

[Winterwind]

I have played 3000 points of Eldar a couple of times, and at 3000+ points I would call a Phoenix Lord (in my case, Karandras and Maugan Ra on separate occasions) is an indulgence rather than a sound tactical choice. For as long as they're alive they will make one unit terrifyingly dangerous at what they do..... But you've got another 2500 points worth of army that also needs to be protected and supported.
If you really have nothing better to spend 200 points on then they're kinda fun and will do their job quite nicely, but I was forever wondering whether or not I should have taken something else to fulfil a specific role rather than making one existing unit - who worked perfectly well already - into an even juicier target for comparatively little innovation.

Mmm, I see. So, you find the presence of a Phoenix Lord is not menacing enough to protect the army by having more fire directed the Phoenix Lord's way?

Though I guess for that, an Avatar would work best...

Sorry, I though I had taken this into account when I suggested using him with a bodyguard - Scorpions for preference, even if they do make for a very expensive way to get ablative wounds for Karandras.
Use them (Or Guardians, though that tends to be a waste of his great Exarch Powers if you do that) to take the hits for him, and then he will single handedly chew through everything in his way in order to win the combat overall. Without that buffer however, he's usually toast unless you get lucky and manage to ambush a VERY small squad of Shooty-Terminators, or something that he can take out alone in a blaze of suicidal glory.

How does the presence or lack of a bodyguard help him in close combat, though (it obviously helps against shooting, but close combat is my real concern)? I mean, he is an Independent Character, so he can and will be targeted directly in close combat - so, if there is even a single model with something like Lightning Claws or a Relic Blade on the other side, or even just enough models to ensure the model with the Powerfist/Stormhammer survives, it is perfectly possible he will die immediately, in the former case even before being able to strike at all (unless he's fine with not ignoring armour saves. Which wouldn't be much better against heavy infantry.).

A fair and accurate comment - in an 'All Comers' list, Asurmen probably is the best choice through sheer survivability and because his Aspect is 1) cheap and 2) a Troops Choice, an advantage that the other 'Lords lack. As support to another unit, he's not all that bad after all. But as I said above, 200+ points to slightly improve 1 unit out of 6? 8? 10?
In terms of his actual fighting ability, I suppose the question that you are asking really is, do you really want to pay over 200 points for a reasonable fighter with a s4, Master Crafted "Force Weapon"? That's what sets him apart from all of the other Eldar who lack such an ability, and yet most people will probably say 'No'. I can't say that I blame them.

Yeah, makes perfect sense to me.

Half a dozen Fire Dragons, Exarch with Dragonbreath Flamer, Wave Serpent and Fuegan; I've only used this combination twice as I only recently bought a Fuegan model, but it has yet to let me down.

...yeah, I think I'll get myself a Fuegan model, too.

Not really, to be honest. The Autarch himself would be fine, but the rest of the unit are still just Guardians and overall I think you'd come off second best against anything even vaguely combat-orientated, like Ork Boyz. I might be thinking like a pessimist, but experience has taught be that Guardians of any kind shouldn't be that close to the enemy if at all possible!

In a unit of Shining Spears that included an Exarch and the Hit & Run ability, you'd be onto something much more powerful. The additional Lance attacks would almost guarantee you destroying most of the enemy unit, rather than the Autarch killing a few models and his unit 'maybe' killing a few more.

The only problem being that Shining Spears are so darn expensive, points-wise...

I am really uncertain whether they could possibly be worth it or not. But they would fit my army pretty much perfectly...

Amongst Guardian Jetbikes, you'd probably have more fun giving an Autarch either a Reaper Launcher or a Fusion Gun so that the unit can remain effective at range where they are safest (and don't have to worry about getting stuck in a tarpit while they really want to be streaking off to claim an objective in the last turn, which is what they are best at.)

Huh... I have to admit, I had never given consideration to a shooty Autarch, being so fixed in the mindset that a warrior HQ belongs into close combat. So, an Autarch that is there to shoot stuff and stays out of combat can be worth it, too?

Oooh, that would open up so many possibilities.

Jain Zar's official colour scheme from 2nd Edition was even better, to my mind - with deep crimson mask and red/black/white striped mane. Each to their own, of course, but having said that I agree with Closet_Skeleton: by accident or design she is just an ugly model.

Yeah, as I said, I think it's a hideous one.
I'm pretty sure it looks the way it does because it's meant to parody some sort of music star or another, but that doesn't change anything about it looking horrible.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Or is this a case were you are confusing fluff with unit names?

Units have fluff and their names are part of that.

Chaos Raptors are an organisation made up of all the jump pack marines of the original traitor legions that consider themselves elite forces but are mainly seen as nutjobs. They aren't just "chaos marines with jump packs".

Okay, their fluff was only actually explained in an ancient White Dwarf article and is badly summerised in the codexes and there's a bit of conflicting information in some pictures. But some guys like to paint their aspect warriors in the same colour scheme as their guardians, so whatever.

That would be like saying Striking Scorpions aren't a special organisation with their unique traditions, just Eldar storm guardians in power armour. You can convert some Storm Guardians to have heavier armour, use the Striking Scorpion rules and say that they're a unique kind of guardian from your homebrew craftworld but I thought we were talking about using a traitor legion with established fluff.

Scouts are Night lords that have dropped Power amour to be better at sneaking. Not hard to explain.

While gaining crappy combat skills.

Yeah, as I said, I think it's a hideous one.
I'm pretty sure it looks the way it does because it's meant to parody some sort of music star or another, but that doesn't change anything about it looking horrible.

Its a goblin mask designed to scare people. Of course its freaking ugly.

It does its job better than those silly wings Night Lords put on their helmets. Or Sanguinary Guard's electroplated blank expressions.

The same idea is done a lot better on the new Harlequins (and the old ones really).

Just because she's a female space elf doesn't mean she's supposed to be sexy. If you wanted to confert a better model I'd use a plastic wych since they have the dynamic legs but wear more clothes than Lelith. A howling banshee would work too much they aren't plastic. Then just find a particularly ugly mask head (maybe from one of the aformentioned harlequins) and the right weapons.

[Winterwind]

Its a goblin mask designed to scare people. Of course its freaking ugly.

Truth be told, I always assumed that was her real face. It looks that way, too.

The whole "just walking armour, no Eldar inside" thing is not really backed up in any way by the current codex. The way the codex makes it sound like is that an Exarch puts on the Phoenix Lord's armour and then his own consciousness is overwritten with that of the Phoenix Lord, but the body stays the same; if the body is slain, some other Eldar must don the armour.

Just because she's a female space elf doesn't mean she's supposed to be sexy. If you wanted to confert a better model I'd use a plastic wych since they have the dynamic legs but wear more clothes than Lelith. A howling banshee would work too much they aren't plastic. Then just find a particularly ugly mask head (maybe from one of the aformentioned harlequins) and the right weapons.

Taking a particularly ugly mask would kinda defeat the purpose of using a better model.