Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have no problem with facts. Whether a book is 3.0 or 3.5, or whether Karrnath is a location instead of a deity (read Five Nations a bit closer, it's a city), they are small things that can be pointed out if a judge gets confused.

Ahh, I was not aware of that, all I had to go on was what I could google. However, I can't ding two other builds for using an obscure source and not also ding him for it. So the scoring comes out the same.

Seriously, though, mad props for pulling out a book I don't own.

[Kefkafreak]

Also, in defense of Braham, Swift Fly and Resist Energy are also touch buffs, and you didn't mention Arcane Strike in the Power section. (Please note that in this comment and the one about Vald I'm not complaining about the judgment and I don't expect anything will be changed, just pointing out some things that I noticed).

Edit: I don't know if a contestant can vote, but I vote for Sortes for Honorary Mention.

[Thurbane]

In defense of Vald, Arctic Elf is not really a template, just a variant race from UA.

Indeed. There is an "acrtic" template kicking around, but as Dragon Mag material, it would be out of the allowed sources for the comp anyway. This is why it's generally good practice to list your sources somewhere in your entry, as it helps avoid confusion.

...as an aside, each judge is free to set their own criteria, of course, but some people seem to have a much broader definition of what constitutes an "obscure source" than I would have expected. I mean, maybe that's because I own basically every 3.0 and 3.5 non setting specific book (and a good deal of the setting specific ones, too)...or maybe I have become subconsciously indoctrinated by the op community!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, in defense of Braham, Swift Fly and Resist Energy are also touch buffs, and you didn't mention Arcane Strike in the Power section. (Please note that in this comment and the one about Vald I'm not complaining about the judgment and I don't expect anything will be changed, just pointing out some things that I noticed).

Edit: I don't know if a contestant can vote, but I vote for Sortes for Honorary Mention.

Both Swift Fly and Resist Energy are 3rd level spells, he can only cast up to 2nd through Greater Status.

Arcane Strike is part of his reasonable damage output. Still not spectacular, but fortunately, he's got other things he can do as well. Consider that a Warlock is considered to have sub-par damage, without Hellfire + Binder + Legacy Champion combo, and Arcane Strike barely keeps up with it, on a more limited usage budget.

And honestly, if he doesn't mention it, why should I? Where in his entry, other than in the build chart, did he once mention Arcane Strike?

...as an aside, each judge is free to set their own criteria, of course, but some people seem to have a much broader definition of what constitutes an "obscure source" than I would have expected. I mean, maybe that's because I own basically every 3.0 and 3.5 non setting specific book (and a good deal of the setting specific ones, too)...or maybe I have become subconsciously indoctrinated by the op community!

As a general rule of thumb, if I have to go out to my storage locker to get it, or if *I* don't have it, then it's pretty dang obscure. The only ones being dinged for 'obscure source' were the 3.0, the Five Nations (which is one of the few books I don't have), and the Planar Handbook. Those are all pretty dang obscure, at least in my opinion.

[Kefkafreak]

Hmm? Resist Energy is level 1 and Swift Fly is level 2. I guess you're right about Arcane Strike, though he did mention it in passing.

He's definitely able to hold his own in melee combat, wearing Mithral Full Plate Armor, and using Arcane channeling, Power Attack (he holds his Longsword with both hands) and Arcane Strike, but that's not his main strength.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm? Resist Energy is level 1 and Swift Fly is level 2. I guess you're right about Arcane Strike, though he did mention it in passing.

Okay, going back over my PhB II, it seems that the Duskblade gets access to both FAR earlier than most people do. I will edit my scoring appropriately.

[Kefkafreak]

By the way, I think it's impressive how fast you posted the scores, specially being as detailed as they are. I hope I didn't bother you with my nitpicks

Even if I don't win, this round is really exciting. I can't wait for the rest of the judges to finish.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By the way, I think it's impressive how fast you posted the scores, specially being as detailed as they are. I hope I didn't bother you with my nitpicks

Even if I don't win, this round is really exciting. I can't wait for the rest of the judges to finish.

It was my mistake that I thought that Duskblades got Resist Energy and Sudden Flight as a 3rd level spell like everyone else. Next time, however, you might want to explicitly point this out.

Furthermore, if you wish an ability to be recognized, you need to explicitly state it.

If you've got a Win Button, you need to tell the judges what it is, where it is located, and how you press it. If you've got a Denied Button lying around, the judges need to know about that as well.

We judge on the level you present to us. Remember, presentation is an important part of any entree. If you don't tell us about it, don't expect us to know it. Part of this is knowing what your character you have built can really do, and knowing how to leverage it properly.

[OMG PONIES]

{table=head]Main Class|Second Class|Domain Chosen
Hexblade | Arcane Archer | Winter Domain
Paladin | Bone Knight | Hunger Domain
Swordsage | fighter | Time Domain
Hexblade | Shadowcraft Mage | Illusion Domain
Bard | Warweaver | Healing Domain
Blackguard | Ocular Adept | Strength Domain
Duskblade | - | Community Domain
Hexblade | Paladin of Slaughter | Luck Domain
Favored Soul | Fighter | Protection Domain
Duskblade | Nar Demonbinder | Destruction Domain
Truenamer | - | Multiple Domains[/table]

Someone besides me made a table? I am so...*weep*...proud of you all.

By the way, I think it's impressive how fast you posted the scores, specially being as detailed as they are.

Seconded. Thanks for both the speed and quality of comments, Shneekey! And now, even though it's silly...

Tallies After One Judge
{table=head]ENTRY|PLACE|TOTALS|AVERAGE
Vald Lokkur|GOLD|18|4.5
Braham|SILVER|17.5|4.375
Deckard Malgus|BRONZE|16|4
Sortes|Fourth|15.5|3.875
Glimwyn Mardwicket|Fifth|11.5|2.875
Nefarious Tate|Fifth|11.5|2.875
Maken'srelli|Seventh|10.5|2.625
Mother Teresa|Eighth|9.5|2.375
Norrin Radd|Ninth|9|2.25
Mighty Casey|Ninth|9|2.25
Uruk|Ninth|9|2.25[/table]

[Piggy Knowles]

Indeed. There is an "acrtic" template kicking around, but as Dragon Mag material, it would be out of the allowed sources for the comp anyway. This is why it's generally good practice to list your sources somewhere in your entry, as it helps avoid confusion.

To be fair, when Arctic Elf was mentioned in Vald's entry, it did link to the SRD entry on the Arctic Elf variant. But you're right, it never did list UA as a source, which would have definitely cleared up all doubt.

Also echoing what others have said about being impressed with the speed and quality of judging thus far. Looking forward to seeing other judges chime in!

[Amphetryon]

Here are my scores on the builds. Congratulations to all contestants, regardless of score, for creatively approaching a difficult puzzle, in trying to make Divine Crusader do something unique.

Note: In light of Prinny's comments about debating and defending scores, I'll not be responding in thread to any concerns about any scores, in order to avoid potentially disqualifying one of these fine contestants.

Scores:
Vlad Lokkor

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Originality: One of 3 Hexblades in this contest, this one using the very obvious and vanilla Abjurant Champion splash. Improved Familiar for Winter Wolf is pulled straight out of the Hexblade Handbook. While you make decent use of it, Arcane Archer appears to have been chosen specifically to make Divine Crusader look good in comparison, a move judges have been deducting for of late. It's also made a few appearances in IC contests prior to this one. The concept here is pretty much an "old, reliable" one.
Originality Score: 2.

Power: The Hexblade base makes your early levels a real slog, especially given how few Curses you get and how little ancilliary support you were able to afford for the Curses. You'll be a competent archer at most levels, but you'll be unlikely to dish out enough damage through the majority of a 1st through 20th level adventuring career to be the primary damage dealer, since Weapon Specialization + Ranged Weapon Mastery = a paltry +4 damage. Your main trick for power comes primarily from Imbue Arrow, which means the build's fuel is more Arcane Archer 2 than Divine Crusader 10, and Arcane Archer is a notoriously weak PrC.
Power Score: 2.5.

Elegance: Divine Crusader is entered on time, with a single hiccup in its progression. You didn't use any sketchy rules interpretations, but you did use a UA variant. If your chosen deity were one focused on storms or slimes to synergize with the Elemental Resistances Divine Crusader offers, I'd be able to overlook that hiccup in progression for a higher score, but as it is, I have to stick with my rubric.
Elegance Score: 3.5.

UoSI: As I mentioned in the Power section, you're primarily using Divine Crusader to fuel Arcane Archer, rather than the other way around. Aside from your minimal Curses and the Winter Wolf - neither of which come from the Secret Ingredient - there's little here that an Aasimar Favored Soul/Contemplative couldn't do as well or better.
UoSI Score: 2.5.

Total: 10.5.

Norrin Radd

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Originality: Building a famous comic book character is fun and all, (trust me, I know), but it's not original, either in the sense of the concept or the contest.
Originality Score: 2.

Power: Yeah, you're powerful enough. We all (should) know that Mystic Wanderer gets some pretty boss toys, to go along with your "DMM and Quicken shenanigans."
Power Score: 4.

Elegance: Double-dipping campaign settings, adding on a template (and a trait, but you note that it's not "technically" necessary), two separate single level dips, Alignment shifting, not even attempting to finish the SI . . . the build's pretty messy, by contest standards. Several levels were even left devoid of skill selections, I'm guessing because the deadline loomed large ([nitpick]It's also "loses" not "looses"[/nitpick]). In comparing this build to my given metrics, I cannot give a good score here in good conscience.
Elegance Score: 1.5.

UoSI: You knew this was coming. You only took a single level of the PrC that is the focal point of this contest. Props for the courage to do it, but it has to cost you in this category.
UoSI Score: 1.

Total Score: 8.5.

Mighty Casey

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Originality: I figured this round would see Swordsages, Favored Souls, and Fighters, for the least painful ways to get Weapon Focus, and you grabbed 2 of the 3. Dungeoncrasher Spirit Totem Barbarian with Powerful Build, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack is pretty stock-standard, as well. Both of these factors inhibit your Originality score, unfortunately.
Originality Score: 2.

Power: Thog smash. Thog smash good. Thog not smash as good as he think he do, though. Short of Ruby Knight Vindicator shenanigans, you can't use more than a single Swift Action in a round. That means, according to your writeup, you're using most of your spells in order to reliably hit twice in a given round, with luck deciding the fate of any additional attacks. Your additional attacks, sadly, are in short supply, with a paltry +15 final BAB for a charger, relying in large part on Wolf Fang Strike's pseudo-TWF, and offsetting the penalties by charging. Had you included a reroll mechanic of some sort, you would have reduced Lady Luck's role on your rolls a good bit more. Because you're dedicating so many resources to being able to Quicken True Strikes every round, you'll fall prey to most of the pitfalls of a straight Dungeoncrasher, struggling against more mobile defenses such as Flight or Dim Door, as well. Nice thought there, but the execution needs more work, and less shaky rules interpretation.
Power Score: 1.5.

Elegance: Surprisingly for a charger, 10th level was the earliest you could enter Divine Crusader due to BAB concerns. You adhered to favored class rules, and took Divine Crusader in a straight shot, with no other PrC to muddy the waters. Were it not for the Goliath's LA, your huge pile of source books, and the faulty logic on how Quickened True Strikes improve the build, this would be outstanding in the Elegance department.
Elegance Score: 4.

UoSI: As with Vlad, there's little here to indicate why you're using Divine Crusader instead of Contemplative; an Aasimar Favored Soul/Contemplative would do most of what this build does, and what it misses comes from Swordsage and/or Barbarian, not Divine Crusader.
UoSI Score: 2.

Total Score: 9.5.

Glimwyn Mardwicket

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Originality: Gnome Shadowcraft Mage, really? Well-known cheese is well-known. Hexblade litters this contest in what is apparently an effort to snag Originality points, not counting the number of appearances Hexblade has made in IC contests to date. Chaotician even showed up again in this particular round.
Originality Score: 1.

Power: A Shadowcraft Mage is powerful; who'd have thunk it? You and the Silver Surfer, up above, are probably the strongest here in power (for reasons having almost nothing to do with Divine Crusader).
Power Score: 4.

Elegance: One of the reasons the Gnome Shadowcraft Mage is so well known is that it does its job so seamlessly, as this build highlights. Had you but listed the spells gained from the Illusion Domain within your entry (since it's not in the SRD), I'd probably have been forced to give this build full marks in the category. As it is, you still score well here.
Elegance Score: 4.

UoSI: You're a Shadowcraft Mage, not a Divine Crusader. You took a CharOp build, excised some levels, and slapped Divine Crusader in there; you could just as easily have chosen Divine Oracle or Contemplative, with precious few changes, had the contest been about those. That falls short of almost any positive metric for UoSI that I can think of, sadly.
UoSI Score: 1.

Total Score: 10.

Mother Teresa

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Originality: I didn't exactly expect to see Bard or War Weaver, but the two are so often paired that the unexpected nature of their appearance is, at best, muted. Building characters after well-known people has traditionally faired poorly in Originality for these contests, to boot.
Originality Score: 3.

Power: Bard and War Weaver are often paired because they synergize well for considerable power. Unfortunately, you've used that synergy in order to be really good reactively, rather than proactively. In other words, Mother Teresa, as presented, is all about negating the effects of the enemy's actions, rather than eliminating the enemy or otherwise rendering them unable to act. It does the trick reasonably well, but there are many better, more powerful tricks from which to choose. Note also that their synergy doesn't rely especially on the SI.
Power Score: 3.

Elegance: You got into Divine Crusader as early as you could, given the poor BAB of Bard and War Weaver, which of course dictated the rest of your levels for you. Most of your feats and skills work to support your 1st 10 levels, rather than the SI. (Note: I'm not deducting for it, but please don't leave the judges to guess how many Skill Points you allocated to which Skills. It forces us to make assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming). However, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are both otherwise unsupported mechanically, and somewhat goofy thematically. I know they're required for the contest, but the fact that they're such poor fits for the inspiration for the build seems a bit inelegant.
Elegance Score: 3.

UoSI: I know I keep harping on it, but I'm forced to say it again: Contemplative (+ Southern Magician) does most of what you want Divine Crusader to do here, with no other changes except ditching the aforementioned goofy Weapon Focus/Specialization. The bits that an Aasimar Favored Soul/Contemplative can't replicate have nothing to do with Divine Crusader, and everything to do with Bard and War Weaver, which are not the focus of the contest.
UoSI Score: 2.

Total Score: 11.

Maken'srelli

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Originality: Although Paladin has been noted before as a curious IC mainstay, Paladin retrained into Blackguard is unusual here in the IC contests, I'll give you that. Ocular Adept is sort of a clever way to snag some ranged attacks as well, and not often seen.
Originality Score: 4.

Power: While early in the 3.X cycle Blackguard may have been at least decent on the Power scale, it's no longer anywhere near strong these days. Having limited your Feat choices to the PHb and CWar (plus a single foray into Libris Mortis that doesn't increase your Power, only your survivability - marginally), you'll lag behind most party members or comparable front-liners in the damage category unless you can simultaneously Smite and Sneak Attack your foe, a combination which seems unlikely to crop up with great frequency on your Skill set. With three separate sets of spells, you'll probably have enough of them to get through a given day, but they'll also be of limited use because of the fractured nature of your casting.
Power Score: 2.5.

Elegance: You built off a fairly small base of sources, which this contest encourages. There's no backstory here at all, which hurts. Normally, I'd ding you for the Alignment shift and retraining, but Blackguard explicitly allows it without needing to open up the Big Book of House Rules. Unfortunately, you wait until really late to start on the SI, for which I must deduct.
Elegance Score: 2.5.

UoSI: This really hurts. You couldn't finish the SI, or make use of much of it. By your own admission, entering Divine Crusader slows down your build in effectiveness, and it takes several levels to recover. The Weapon Specialization Bonus Feat comes online so late that it's almost entirely inconsequential, even compared to its normal level of utility. That reads as "actively hindering the concept presented" from here, which means I have to score it as such.
UoSI Score: 1.

Total Score: 10.

Braham
*Note to Braham's author: That thing you linked isn't the SRD, but the wiki. Here is the SRD.

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Originality: Divine Crusader lends itself to a Gish concept, and Duskblade is a Gish in a can. It's not especially surprising or original to see the pairing, though it's a bit surprising we didn't see it more. Apparently the CHA synergy with Hexblade made that entry more tempting, though it's not the only Duskblade in this contest. Your abilities as a swordsman and party buffer are decent, but a standard Bardadin can copy a majority of your shtick without effort.
Originality Score: 2.5.

Power: This category gives me a real problem with this build. By your own admission, much of the build's power comes from the spell Greater Status, which is not found on the most recent version of the Community Domain list (see Elegance, below). If you're in a campaign that allows your version of the Community Domain, the build functions as advertised. If not, much of it just fizzles.
Power Score: 2.

Elegance: Entry into Divine Crusader is as swift as possible, and you used only 2 classes. Dispite only two Classes, your combination leaves you MAD as a hatter. There's a bigger problem than the MAD, though: your Domain choice. As you specifically mentioned, the version of the Community Domain which you've used is found, in its primary source, in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Unfortunately, because the Community Domain was reprinted in the Spell Compendium (check the publication dates), it means the version in the Spell Compendium supersedes the version in the BoED. Note also that it had previously existed in Defenders of the Faith as a Prestige Domain, which Divine Crusader would not get access to, per Curmudgeon's ruling on the RAW. That means Braham's build is hinged on a now-defunct version of the domain's spell list, which only existed for a relatively brief period of time. A given player would have to tap-dance fairly carefully with most DMs to get this version of the Community Domain into the game.
Elegance Score: 2.75.

UoSI: While the majority of your power comes from Divine Crusader, it's not from something that the Divine Crusader alone could offer. Any other method of accessing (that version of) the Community Domain would accomplish the same thing with Greater Status, and the majority of the other highlighted tricks of the build come via the Duskblade, rather than Divine Crusader.
UoSI Score: 2.5.

Total Score: 9.75.

Braham gets my "honorable mention" vote.

Lord of Misfortune

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Originality: By presentation order, the 3rd Hexblade in this round, and Hexblade makes regular appearances in past rounds as well. Chaotician is also not unique to this round; come to that, Hexblade and Chaotician were paired together elsewhere in this very round.
Originality Score: 2.

Power: You're a Divine Might Hexadin with less than full BAB, relying on manipulating the dice to tilt the odds in your favor, which is part and parcel of what a Hexadin normally does on full BAB. Reliance on both a one-handed Exotic Weapon and a Heavy Shield further cut into your damage potential. The Deadly Touch ability is nice, and all, but by the time you get it, the spellcasters you say it's aimed for have Alter Self and are flying above you. Yes, you gain access to Miracle a whole level ahead of when a bog-standard Cleric would, but that's not especially difficult. In trade-off, you're losing a whole mess of other spells. Speaking of spells, what Paladin of Slaughter spell did you take?
Power Score: 2.5

Elegance: No single-level dips at all, and appropriately early entry into the SI. However, you're relying heavily on UA for the Paladin of Slaughter, and the order of the Classes means you'd suffer multiclass penalties from a stickler DM.
Elegance: 3.5.

UoSI: While you used all of the levels, the Luck Domain is the only thing you're really using from Divine Crusader; that lands it squarely as a 3 on my scale.
UoSI Score: 3.

Total Score: 11

Uruk
*Judge's note: Didn't we have another contest entrant with this same name, some time ago? Interesting confluence, if so.

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Originality: I figured this round would see Swordsages, Favored Souls, and Fighters, for the least painful ways to get Weapon Focus, and you grabbed 2 of the 3. Dungeoncrasher with Knockback, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack is pretty bog-standard for the archetype, too. Both of these factors inhibit your originality score, unfortunately.
Originality Score: 2.

Power: There's a reason a Feral, Jotunbrud Dungeoncrasher with Knockback, Shocktrooper and Leap Attack is the standard for the type. It does what it says it does, and does it pretty well. Your slowed BAB hurts in that regard. With the Protection Domain, most of your spells are reactive rather than proactive, which is not often a winning strategy in D&D combat. You also suffer from most of the problems associated with Dungeoncrashing, namely an intelligently played spellcaster is just going to avoid being hit by you, and use spells that don't care about AMF to make you a sad feral panda. Many of the Protection Domain spells are somewhat contingent on knowing what you're about to face, and you're sorely lacking in the ability to find that out on your own. "Far and away the most deadly mage-hunter around" is a tall order for someone conspicuously missing the Mage Slayer Feat chain.
Power Score: 2.5.

Elegance: Feral template, eww. That's melee-variety limburger at its finest, right there. I suspect you knew that, too, which is why it didn't make it to the level-by-level table. Ducking into Divine Crusader at level 9 has the unfortunate problem of being preceded directly with Fighter 5, which is often considered a waste of a level and therefore a poor leaping-off point. You had to orphan the better Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 level until 15th level, which is awfully late.
Elegance Score: 2.75.

UoSI: Continuing your Favored Soul base Class would have gotten you Specialization at 13th, just as your entry into Divine Crusader did. It would have gotten you Perfect Self as well, and even more Energy Resistances than Uruk currently enjoys, not to mention free Wings for better mobility. Your Feats would be largely unaffected due to your slow BAB, which precisely matches a Favored Soul 20's by the end. I can't think of a Dungeoncrashing benefit that a Favored Soul can't replicate or improve upon via spells, so. . . why aren't you a Favored Soul 20?
UoSI Score: 1.5.

Total Score: 8.75.

Nefarious Tate

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Originality: Divine Crusader lends itself to a Gish concept, and Duskblade is a Gish in a can. It's not especially surprising or original to see the pairing, though it's a bit surprising we didn't see it more. Apparently the CHA synergy with Hexblade made that entry more tempting, though it's not the only Duskblade in this contest. Nar Demonbinder was somewhat surprising, though.
Originality Score: 2.75.

Power: As a Divine Crusader, all of the power is coming from the particular Domain chosen, rather than on anything otherwise unique to the PrC; all remaining power rests on the supporting classes. He pulls some relatively impressive tricks, but most all of them are in spite of, rather than because of, the SI.
Power Score: 3.

Elegance: All of the Feat selections move Nefarious Tate toward a unified, stronger goal. However, Divine Crusader is left without its capstone, and the Class progression is somewhat jumbled in the name of power. While a god that mirrors Cyric's portfolio is not a far stretch, the fact that Nar Demonbinder is setting specific would be problematic in some campaigns. The fact that it's from Unapproachable East, which further limits access, could increase those problems.
Elegance Score: 2.5.

UoSI: As noted in Power, Nefarious Tate's abilities are almost in spite of, rather than because of, Divine Crusader. Pious Templar is entered but conspicuously dropped a level before it would grant Weapon Specialization, a minor bonus which Divine Crusader would still find superfluous. The vast majority of your summoning ability comes via Nar Demonbinder, rather than the SI. Duskblade 5/Pious Templar 3/Ur-Priest 8/Nar Demonbinder 4 would, as far as I can tell, get you identical benefits in essentially every area, with any difference easily made up in readily available items, and the same holds for Duskblade 5/Pious Templar 3/Nar Demonbinder 4/Contemplative 8, though it requires some finesse.
UoSI Score: 3.

Total Score: 11.25.

Sortes

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Originality: I knew it would come up sooner or later: someone would take a chance on the shock-factor of using a Truenamer in order to bolster Originality. It's an interesting gambit, given the number of times comments have come up about a given choice having been made "just for the contest," I'll give you that.
Originality Score: 4

Power: Assuming all those Truenamer-boosting items are available, you'll be okay in the Power department. You won't be great, but you'll be okay. Note that's a potentially large assumption. However, the entire "trick" you're pointing out with Divine Crusader has issues. It's reliant on items (scrolls). It's reliant on a UMD check (yes, you have ranks, but failure is still eminently likely at low levels and is still going to blow your fun up for the day). It's a spell that any Cleric could choose to cast, without needing either of the preceding, yet isn't that good for them, but is somehow amazing for Divine Crusaders. If you're casting off a scroll and relying on UMD anyway for your power, why not just stock up on the scrolls and wands and such you'll find useful, rather than jumping through this hoop? If your trick is dependent upon this item, is there some reason every Divine Crusader in the contest (who presumably adventures with a party) can't use the item? Finally, it's nice that you can talk about whacking things with a dagger for meaningful damage with a straight face, but it was pointed out to me with Kaycha (twice!) in the last round that relying on Knowledge Devotion to power up your attacks is not enough to be impressive, and your BAB is sorely lacking as a melee combatant. Given the exact set of tools you covet, you can do fine. Without them, you'll be in Dagger and Crossbow mode really, really quickly.
Power Score: 2.75

Elegance: As you probably gathered, I'm calling shenanigans on your Substitute Domain trick. Otherwise, you got into Divine Crusader as soon as you could, and took it straight through. Assuming your DM doesn't run screaming from the idea of a Truenamer, most of this build comes off reasonably cleanly, if extremely dependent on items.
Elegance Score: 3.5

UoSI: So, the main tricks you're highlighting are Truenaming (your other class), and your ability to UMD a scroll (not a class feature at all) to change your Domain (and emphasizing your Domain lands as a 3 on my UoSI rubric). I suppose that fits reasonably in the scale I provided.
UoSI Score: 2.25

Total Score: 12.5

[Vandicus]

Incredibly speedy judging. As a side note, the Lord of Misfortune rating has a comment stating that he recieves XP penalties for multiclassing in that order, but the character is human and doesn't recieve an XP penalty from multiclassing.

*EDIT

So far, Vald Lokkur still holds first place with 28.5
In second is Sortes, with 28
Braham holds third with a score of 27.25
Deckard Malgus:27
Nefarious Tate:22.75
Glimwyn Mardwickey:21.5
Maken'srelliy:20.5
Mother Teresa:20.5
Mighty Casey: 18.5
Uruk: 17.75
Norrin Radd:17.5


It seems the top four are heavily contested positions so far, while the rest of the contestants seem to be dropping behind. However, Nefarious Tate and Mother Teresa recieved some of the higher ratings(both scoring higher than our current front runner) in the most recent judging, and if that proportion keeps up, they may be able to secure one of the top positions themselves.

[Kesnit]

Something I've noticed in the judging in several past Challenges, but Amphetryon's judging made me want to bring it up. (Not specifically dinging on you, Amphetryon. Just what you wrote made me decide to comment.)

The idea of the IC is to use PrCs that don't get used. They don't get used because they are - to be honest - underwhelming. Amphetryon commented several times "you could get the same thing from Contemplative," which is true. Shneeky brought up comparisons to UrPriest, which are also valid. But if that is the judging criteria, why not mark down people that use Fighter instead of (say) Druid, or Paladin instead of Crusader?

The SI was DC, not Contemplative or UrPriest. I do not see marking down people because they used what the SI gave them, even though something else could give more. That "something else" wasn't the point of the competition.

[Cieyrin]

My build idea was Divine Crusader (Time) into Swiftblade, as it doesn't specify anywhere in the prereqs that Haste has to be arcane. The arcane advancement hurts a little bit, since you can't advance Divine Crusader casting with it, but it's an interesting alternative. Again, my brain was elsewhere on how to go about it and not remembering that I could in fact make a build to submit but, having failed to succeed to ever manage to make a build in a timely manner for any IC comp, my brain decided to gloss over that I did have time this time. Ah well...

[OMG PONIES]

The tallies...they've already been tallied...

But seriously, kudos to yet another speedy judge for ICO XXIII: Lightning Round! And Amph, to satisfy your curiosity, we've had Urog (Round IX), Wruk (Round XI), and Oduk (Round XIII), but never an Uruk before. You can trust me; I uruked it up . Thank you, I'm here all week. Tip your waitresses.

[flabort]

The tallies...they've already been tallied...

But seriously, kudos to yet another speedy judge for ICO XXIII: Lightning Round!

You can still put them in a nice, neat table with averages

[OMG PONIES]

You can still put them in a nice, neat table with averages

I mean, if you insist...

Tallies After Two Judges

{table=head]ENTRY|PLACE|TOTALS|AVERAGE
Vald Lokkur|GOLD|28.5|3.5625
Sortes|SILVER|28|3.5
Braham|BRONZE|27.25|3.40625
Deckard Malgus|Fourth|27|3.375
Nefarious Tate|Fifth|22.75|2.84375
Glimwyn Mardwicket|Sixth|21.5|2.6875
Mother Teresa|Seventh|20.5|2.5625
Maken'srelli|Seventh|20.5|2.5625
Mighty Casey|Ninth|18.5|2.3125
Uruk|Tenth|17.75|2.21875
Norrin Radd|Eleventh|17.5|2.1875[/table]

[Kesnit]

I mean, if you insist...

Tallies After Two Judges

I can't believe Sortes is in second. I love the build, but my first thought when I read it was "TrueNamer? Oh, that is going to get hit so hard!!!"

[Private-Prinny]

Regarding any and all disputes:

If you feel the need to point out something, there are exactly 2 things that I will pay attention to for the judges scores to be altered. Neither is debatable, therefore they have a place here.

1. If a judge has made a rules error that significantly affects their score, cite the correct passage i.e. Shneeky's judging of Braham or Nefarious Tate. The level of Duskblade spells, or the CL of a Nar Demonbinder (p.26 of UE) is an undisputable fact, and a clear mistake that needs to be corrected. If a contestant fears for their anonymity, they can feel free to PM me with these concerns. Always cite the book, page, and possibly passage.

2. If a judge marks down a build explicitly for a certain factor, and ignores that factor in a different build, bring it up. The judges are reasonable people, only looking to be fair. Only explicit deductions are eligible for this, since something that only deserves a passing mention may not be a large enough part of their scoring process.

The above represent the written rules regarding the entry, or a judge's consistency in their scoring. Any other disputes, such as the viability of a certain technique or exactly how original an entry is, will be nipped in the bud. They gum up the thread, accomplish little to nothing, and are otherwise unacceptable. Don't let this train wreck come to pass again.

[ILM]

The tallies...they've already been tallied...

But seriously, kudos to yet another speedy judge for ICO XXIII: Lightning Round! And Amph, to satisfy your curiosity, we've had Urog (Round IX), Wruk (Round XI), and Oduk (Round XIII), but never an Uruk before. You can trust me; I uruked it up . Thank you, I'm here all week. Tip your waitresses.

Not only are the entries all impressive, the judging this time around was unbelievable. I thought about judging this one too but have a bit of work on my plate so I finally decided against; boy was I glad when I saw there were 11 contestants! But to hammer out those scores in just a few days... major kudos, guys.

Also, you still haven't sent me that Excel sheet .

[OMG PONIES]

Also, you still haven't sent me that Excel sheet .

Sorry, I'm making some upgrades, updates, and error corrections first.

[LovelyBlanch]

Not a dispute, just asking for a rules clarification.

Regarding Braham's Community Domain, is SRD strictly superseded by Spell Compendium? I don't really think any DM with whom I would like to play (a DM that doesn't actively try to screw over the players) would disallow it, but does RAW say anything about it?

Braham's one of my favourite builds of this round and I think it's a bit unfair that he's losing points in more than one category (I mean, a score lower than 10?) just because he used something in the SRD, which is one of the most basic and commonly used sources.

No offense, but I also feel like Amphetryon was too harsh on Vald, deducting points in Power just because his main strength comes from Arcane Archer, while giving builds like the Shadowcraft Mage a 4 while explicitly saying that their power has nothing to do with Divine Crusader.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not a dispute, just asking for a rules clarification.

Regarding Braham's Community Domain, is SRD strictly superseded by Spell Compendium? I don't really think any DM with whom I would like to play (a DM that doesn't actively try to screw over the players) would disallow it, but does RAW say anything about it?

Actually, he is right, the SpC explicitly states that any previous versions of these domains are now superseded by this version.

Braham's one of my favourite builds of this round and I think it's a bit unfair that he's losing points in more than one category (I mean, a score lower than 10?) just because he used something in the SRD, which is one of the most basic and commonly used sources.

He only lost it in one category for being an 'out of date source'. His primary lack of points comes from his lack of much that he does, other than a bit of minor buffing.

No offense, but I also feel like Amphetryon was too harsh on Vald, deducting points in Power just because his main strength comes from Arcane Archer, while giving builds like the Shadowcraft Mage a 4 while explicitly saying that their power has nothing to do with Divine Crusader.

Power /= Elegance /= UotSI. Shadowcraft Mage got a high score in power, because he can cast any spell in the game. Do note the 1 in Creativity AND UoSI that Amphetryon leveled on the Shadowcraft Gnome.

Vald, or so he judges, doesn't have a means of damaging opponents after he applies battlefield control. That was where the lack of Power comes from.

I see where you are coming from, Vald was one of my favorite builds as well, but I can also see his judging criteria, and given the litmus test he put forth for the builds, I would agree with his rulings.

[Kefkafreak]

He only lost it in one category for being an 'out of date source'. His primary lack of points comes from his lack of much that he does, other than a bit of minor buffing.

Actually he lost points in Power and Elegance because of that

Each judge has his or her own criteria and opinions, that's what makes it interesting

I'm looking forward to the rest of the scores.

[Tam_OConnor]

Only three builds left to judge. I'll finish after my game tonight. Call it... seven, eight hours?

[OMG PONIES]

Only three builds left to judge. I'll finish after my game tonight. Call it... seven, eight hours?

If we don't have scores in nine we'll come a-knocking .

[Draz74]

I hate to be "that guy," but a couple more minor appeals to Shneeky:

You get a single Swift action per turn. Relying on True Strike is mutually exclusive with Pounce, since it doesn't affect iterative attacks, only the first one. So the Lion Totem dip is completely pointless. No, you can't have more than one swift action, your shady rules clarification forgot to mention one tiny little detail...

. This hurt you. Badly.

I'm not sure Casey's author ever intended or implied that he'd be using more than one Quickened Spell per round. He does mention using it in between iterative attacks (which is valid, even while Pouncing), but that could just be because he intends to assume that his first attack is going to hit anyway, then use True Strike to buff one of his iteratives (which tend to be the ones that miss ...).

And you have failed to meet prerequisites for Sudden Leap at 2nd character level, because it requires one other TC maneuver.

He takes Wolf Fang Strike at the same level, and doesn't swap it out until much, much later. This should definitely not be an issue.

[gbprime]

or the CL of a Nar Demonbinder (p.26 of UE) is an undisputable fact, and a clear mistake that needs to be corrected.

Are you referring to this?

But you have one slight problem... nowhere in Nar Demonbinder OR in Divine Champion does it say that their CL stacks. So on that, you are incorrect. They have separate caster levels, because they have separate spell lists. Nor can you swap spells out on the two spell lists. This will hurt you in Power and Elegance.

Honestly, where do you get the idea that PrC's with separate casting lists stack their CL's?

Because yeah, that is an error.

[Private-Prinny]

There are two factual errors regarding Sortes.

Spoiler

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Relevant text.

Power: 3
You can re-write your spell list whenever you want to. Knowledge Devotion gives you passable damage output. However, you've got a problem with that... namely, all your Knowledge skills go cross-class. Temporarily gaining access to things like Miracle (through Luck domain).

However you have a problem with gaining Devotion feats. Specifically, Complete Champion, page 53. It explicitly states "If you are a Cleric...". But you aren't a Cleric. So you can't get devotion feats this way. Sorry.

Actually, under Deity and Domain, you'll find this passage.

A divine crusader chooses one domain from among those offered by that deity to his or her clerics and gains the granted power of the domain. (If the domain granted power includes the addition of a skill or skills to the cleric class skill list, add it to the class skill list for the divine crusader instead.) The divine crusader also gains the ability to cast spells from that domain (see below).

Sortes retains all Knowledge skills as class skills, and as far as I know, skill ranks don't disappear.

In addition, in the passage you refer to in Complete Champion, the phrase "or any other character class who gains access to a domain" appears literally right after the part you cited. The Player's Handbook defines a character class as...

One of the eleven player character types... Character class may also refer to a nonplayer character class or a prestige class.

Therefore, a Divine Crusader is a character class that gains domain access, eligible for domain swapping.

[Draz74]

In defiance of all precedent, I've decided to judge this round. Reading these entries was just that entertaining.

=== Vald Lokkur ===

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Originality: 4. I've mused before about ways to make Imbue Arrow worthwhile, but Divine Crusader isn't a method I'd ever come up with. It works, though. And you even managed to discover a new cheesy trick with Imbue Arrow, in an underpowered Core class no less, and use it in a powerful but not horrifying manner.
Power: 4. You're a mediocre archer with a few high-level spells that aren't known as the game's best -- with the possible exception of Control Weather, which does indeed get your foot in the door of the "I can actually have a strong non-combat effect on the world" club. Still ... the build's best tricks are hard to use in a party setting, and are better suited to an NPC. You're also quite bland at lower levels, and overlook a few obvious minor ways that your power could have been boosted (Hexblade 7, better Intimidate tricks, probably Dark Companion would have been better than a Winter Wolf).
Elegance: 4. You keep to the "Winter" theme admirably. No kooky rules lawyering, and even without the Imbue Arrow cheese the build is very functional. Arctic Elf doesn't bother me when it's obviously mostly for flavor (and Arcane Archer prereqs), and the lack of Constitution penalty is just the icing on the ... ice. Abjurant Champion kind of sticks out like a sore thumb, though; its Level 5 ability would have been a big boon, but you only manage to fit 3 levels. More Hexblade would have been better.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 5. Your use of Ranged Weapon Mastery, as well as your cohesive fluff, help to get you to the point where I can't imagine Divine Crusader features being utilized much more thoroughly.

=== Norrin Radd ===

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Originality: 4.5. Props for gutsy moves: copying a comic character (in an original but workable way), and a neat refluffing of a domain.
Power: 4. DMM nastiness. Not much "bite" against things immune to Enervation, though.
Elegance: 2. A custom deity, setting-specific stuff, surfboard feats, DMM ... you knew this couldn't win this category. At least DMM (split ray) is a lot less of a headache than DMM (persist), though.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5. I can't completely tank you, because I liked the focus on the Hunger theme (and Divine Crusader is supposed to be about focusing on a theme). But this contest isn't really about 1-level dips in the Secret Ingredient.

=== Mighty Casey ===

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Originality: 1.5. You're a barbarian-dipping, Shock Trooping, Dungeoncrashing charger. Combining that with Divine Crusader is kinda new, but not really ground-breaking.
Power: 4.5. I'm willing to assume that you play this build intelligently, focusing less on the True Strike trick and more on the Haste, FoM, MoP, Foresights, and Time Stops than your description would indicate. (Not that True Strike is a worthless trick, but it's not your best one.) This is surely a powerful melee build, and much less of a one-trick pony than many chargers.
Elegance: 5. I appreciate the way you juggle your levels to avoid XP penalties, and the Barbarian dip bothers me less than it would thanks to your pointing out that it's a racially appropriate option. Mostly, though, I have to reward you here for the way you made me laugh when I realized that Mighty Casey was wielding a baseball bat in combat -- and it works with the Secret Ingredient's weapon restriction in an elegant way.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. You get some points here for the way your Domain really does add a bit of flexibility to cover the traditional weaknesses of your base classes. Also for the way you will definitely put Specialization to use more than a more caster-focused build would. But nothing makes me really say "wow!"

Might Casey gets my "Honorable Mention" vote.

=== Glimwyn ===

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Originality: 3. Shadowcraft Mage isn't a new way to make casters more flexible, but it's a new way to make Divine Crusader more flexible. There are some other hidden gems, too. Did you have to go the whole nine yards with Earth Spell, though? Not just Shadowcraft Mage as-intended?
Power: 4. All but one of the builds in this contest get Level 9 spells, but only one of them is more flexible in its power than you. Dark Companion is an effective combo, too ... but generally, this build starts slow and doesn't get its "main trick" until very late, which counters the flexibility.
Elegance: 1.5. You lose some points for obscure sources, for advancing DC casting beyond its limit when you could have advanced Hexblade more, and for known cheese. Furthermore, the early and late parts of the build just feel like they're two different, competing characters.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. A clever way to make your Divine Crusader casting have lots of impact ... but was their any effort to put Divine Crusader to use, other than its spellcasting? Or even to use the spells it gets besides Silent Image and a Shadow-subschool prereq?

=== Mother Teresa ===

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Originality: 2.5. Bard with War Weaver is nothing new. War Weaver and Divine Crusader is, but I'm still struggling to see the synergy.
Power: 1.5. You don't have much going for you other than having very, very large amounts of healing available. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean much in a typical campaign, where healing is only a true source of power if it's fast.
Elegance: 3.5. Simple, only one base class, nothing questionable. Unfortunately, still doesn't feel cohesive. You obviously ran out of time to really put the finishing touches on this build, which is a shame. I'd like to see whether it can be carved into something beautiful.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. I don't know War Weaver very well, so I hope I'm not missing anything ... but it feels like this build is just a standard application of Divine Crusader with no clever synergy. You did take all the levels, and you do have a theme, but ... mechanically, why this PrC?

=== Mad Maks ===

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Originality: 3. I, um, definitely didn't expect any contestant to have this many sources of spellcasting? Does that count as originality? I don't really catch the reference in the name or the deity, so I may be missing something here ...
Power: 2. A straightforward Blackguard build doesn't really impress me, and by your own admission that's this build's strongest hour. Only build in the contest without Level 9 spells.
Elegance: 2.5. Obscure sources, a headache of triple casting to keep track of, and you even admit that it can't seem to decide whether it wants to be an Ocular Adept or a Divine Crusader.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. Doesn't complete Divine Crusader, or really even get all that the Secret Ingredient has to offer.

=== Braham ===

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Originality: 4. Interesting domain choice, half-elf (why? is there a synergy I'm missing here? or is it just for the story?), and, well, I've never thought of how Duskblade could be turned into a support-style class.
Power: 3.5. You're certainly capable in combat at low levels, and have some cool tricks at higher levels ... but nothing mind-boggling. In a standard Tier-3 party, this guy wouldn't be considered useless, but at higher levels he'd probably be considered the "slow one" of the group.
Elegance: 4. Only two classes. Pretty straightforward; nothing to complain about except the reliance on an out-of-date version of a domain. Which I would allow, as the DM, but I still have you give you a small penalty here for it.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. Only little snippets of synergy. (If only there were more cool Duskblade buffs that you could channel through Greater Status! That would make a BIG difference in this category.) I'm trying to remind myself that, in spite of the writeup's implication that this guy likes to lie in a hammock and sip pina coladas while his party does the fighting, he's got the chassis (from both classes) and the features (from Duskblade, mostly) to be in the thick of the fray, and still use his support-spells a bit at the same time. That keeps his Divine Crusader features (other than Greater Status) from being quite so neglected.

=== Lord of Misfortune ===

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Originality: 2. Expected entry classes; basically a standard Charisma-based warrior with Divine Crusader adding one of the best Core domains. Nothing really shocking, but minor points for an obscure deity and the rarely-seen Divine Shield.
Power: 3.5. Sub-standard weapon choice, mandated by the chosen deity. Overall, pretty standard, with nothing extraordinarily weak or strong except for Miracle at high levels, which by itself gives +0.5 Power. I'm glad Babble finishes off the build's nominal "caster slayer" theme, even if it's not actually wonderful at caster-killing.
Elegance: 4. While there are a few things I don't love, such as the obscurity of Chaotician or the lack of a fourth Hexblade level, there is not much to quarrel with here, and the way it orders its base classes and avoids Nightstick reliance by spending feats are admirable.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. It's got the whole caster/melee thing going, and uses all ten levels. But here, more than with the other entries for some reason, I'm left wondering why it isn't just a full divine caster.

=== Uruk ===

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As a note that doesn't affect your score: the Type on your stat block should be Outsider (native, augmented Humanoid) rather than Humanoid (native Outsider).
Originality: 1.5. Expected entry classes, standard charging tactics (until high levels). Not surprising domain. One unusual feat choice.
Power: 3. Pushing people into your own Prismatic Spheres is a cute trick ... but yeah, overall you are still stuck with the usual limitations of being a charger build. No flight is a nasty crippling weakness for someone who hopes to rely on Antimagic. A fourth Favored Soul level would have been much stronger than Fighter 5. Convention says that a respectable gish is supposed to achieve BAB +16.
Elegance: 2. Feral, eww. I wouldn't allow that. You don't feel like the "caster killer" you claim to be -- you're not really all that strong when you Antimagic yourself. Otherwise, not much to say in either direction -- at least, nothing that I'm not already counting in another category.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. Your Favored Soul levels serve to highlight, rather than obscure, the Secret Ingredient's inherent weakness; it's hard to think that you couldn't have just gone Favored Soul 17 / Fighter 2 / Contemplative 1

=== Nefarious Tate ===

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Originality: 3.5. Not what I expected to see, but not really shocking either. I don't know enough about Nar Demonbinder to even consider whether it might appear.
Power: 4. He has Planar Binding and uses it a lot, for some real out-of-combat power. He uses Tomb-Tainted Soul to be able to harm enemies and help himself at the same time. Good high-level spells in his chosen domain. Arcane Strike tactics are solid.
Elegance: 2. Four different spellcasting sources = headache. I've never been a big Tomb-Tainted Soul fan, although I guess it's ok as long as it's not a whole party of "good" characters doing it. Oh yeah, and using Planar Binding (well) is Known Cheese.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. Pious Templar dip serves to highlight that similar abilities to Divine Crusader could have been gained in other ways. The only trick here that a Cleric couldn't have done just as well is the Duskblade channeling trick ... but at least that's something.

=== Sortes ===

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Originality: 5. Duh. As if Truenamer weren't enough, this build has some other gutsy tricks ... such as refusing to select a single Domain!
Power: 3.5. OK, let's be honest. Your careful optimization of Truenamer levels does not make you powerful, only tolerable. Knowledge Devotion is kind of a waste here, because you're not set up to do anything impressive with your daggers; look at your Dexterity and your feats. You are MAD as a hatter. Even with items, your Quickened Utteranes (or your Solid Fog battlefield control) are pretty shaky at some levels ... All that said, the Substitute Domain trick does work, and it makes you the most flexible build in this contest on a long-term basis -- one of only two that can cast different Level 9 spells at different times.
Elegance: 3. Equipment reliance doesn't bother me as much as it bothers some judges, and even moderate use of custom items is almost forgivable on a Truenamer. Only two classes; great flavor to tie them (and the Paragnostic Assembly) together. Jarring feat selection. (Besides Knowledge Devotion, I would have preferred to avoid Truespeech Training, instead simply paying extra skill points to keep the skill maxed. 10 skill points is not a great use of a feat.) Main trick is cool and works by RAW, but may bother some DMs.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4. You don't get much mileage out of Weapon Specialization or other lesser class features, but you manage to use the main features of the Ingredient extensively, bypassing the main restriction they're supposed to have. And somehow you dig up unexpected synergy between these later levels and your earlier class, at the same time. Bravo!

=== Final Scores: ===
Vald Lokkur 17
Norrin Radd 12
Mighty Casey 14.5
Glimwyn 11
Mother Teresa 10
Mad Maks 9.5
Braham 15
Lord of Misfortune 12.5
Uruk 8.5
Nefarious Tate 12.5
Sortes 15.5