Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII

[term1nally s1ck]

Depends on the domain and feat. Know Dev is *MUCH* better than the Domain for a cleric who has another domain or two to pick spells from..

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oops, I thought Divine Crusader was spontaneous casting, and thus your ability to cast would be unaffected because you're casting them spontaneuosly, not preparing them. Sorry, pants-on-head moment there. On another note, I just realized devotion feats suck (if you're focused on casting).

Some of them are more powerful than others, and furthermore, you can always pick up the devotion feat as a feat rather than trading out the domain. Also, some builds don't rely on casting (the infamous 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion found in some melee builds).

Travel Devotion is a good example as well. The Travel Domain has some awesome spells, including all your 'party taxi cab' spells. However, for a Swift Hunter, Travel Devotion means getting off a full attack, and activating your precision damage at the same time..

So it depends. For a full-cleric? Few devotion feats are worth trading a domain for. But for dips? They can be exceedingly handy.

[OMG PONIES]

Since the domain devotions are actually in every way inferior for Sorties, it wouldn't really change his Power score at all. He wouldn't want to know what would happen to him if I tried to base the Power score on his ability to throw knives + Knowledge devotion (now with cross-class half-ranks) + Law devotion, for example.

While this answers the point about swapping domains for devotion feats quite nicely, it seems that you've yet to respond to the fact that all Knowledge skills are always in-class for Sortes. He picked up Knowledge Devotion outside of Divine Crusader and specifically mentions sticking with the Knowledge Domain upon DC level-ups. Do you have any comments in that regard (especially since it seems like "cross-class" ranks seemed to earn a deduction from you)?

On an unrelated note, was anyone in this thread the one who submitted Manifestation of Retribution in Round XXI? The spreadsheet must know!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While this answers the point about swapping domains for devotion feats quite nicely, it seems that you've yet to respond to the fact that all Knowledge skills are always in-class for Sortes. He picked up Knowledge Devotion outside of Divine Crusader and specifically mentions sticking with the Knowledge Domain upon DC level-ups. Do you have any comments in that regard (especially since it seems like "cross-class" ranks seemed to earn a deduction from you)?

On an unrelated note, was anyone in this thread the one who submitted Manifestation of Retribution in Round XXI? The spreadsheet must know!

If he is switching out his Knowledge domain for another domain, all his Knowledge skills suddenly become cross-class, because he no longer has the domain ability from the Knowledge domain. Thus, while he has access to other domains, he does so at the price of halving most of his Knowledge Devotion damage output modifiers.

Having said that, he does get a bump in Elegance, because the trick DOES work, so I need to remove the half-point deduction for using a trick that doesn't work. One moment while I update the post.

[BobVosh]

On an unrelated note, was anyone in this thread the one who submitted Manifestation of Retribution in Round XXI? The spreadsheet must know!

Ok. Once you are done with this one can you pm me a link to it? Or email it to me? I am scared what I will find, but I need to know how thoroughly done this was.

[dextercorvia]

If he is switching out his Knowledge domain for another domain, all his Knowledge skills suddenly become cross-class, because he no longer has the domain ability from the Knowledge domain. Thus, while he has access to other domains, he does so at the price of halving most of his Knowledge Devotion damage output modifiers.

Having said that, he does get a bump in Elegance, because the trick DOES work, so I need to remove the half-point deduction for using a trick that doesn't work. One moment while I update the post.

Skills suddenly becoming cross-class doesn't make him lose ranks, however, it only would limit his ability to add skill points if he leveled up under the influence of a different domain.

[term1nally s1ck]

If he is switching out his Knowledge domain for another domain, all his Knowledge skills suddenly become cross-class, because he no longer has the domain ability from the Knowledge domain. Thus, while he has access to other domains, he does so at the price of halving most of his Knowledge Devotion damage output modifiers.

Having said that, he does get a bump in Elegance, because the trick DOES work, so I need to remove the half-point deduction for using a trick that doesn't work. One moment while I update the post.

SHneeky, he got Know Dev WITHOUT SWAPPING THE DOMAIN. That's 4 times it's been said now. Look at the class progression, he took it at truenamer 3.

As for his *other* trick, LOOK at it. It's completely described.

He uses Substitute Domain to re-pick his Domain for Div Crusader. BY CChamp, this lets him take one devotion feat *instead*, and he dismiss it (since it has the [D] tag) at will, heading straight back to his Knowledge Domain and a full spell list.

He doesn't permanently switch Domain, he temporarily switches it. Since whether a skill is a class skill or not only matter on levelling, his points remain, with the only potential issue being if any suddenly gain the cross-class cap on skill ranks, but Truenamer has them all as class skills, so no cap is applied.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

SHneeky, he got Know Dev WITHOUT SWAPPING THE DOMAIN. That's 4 times it's been said now. Look at the class progression, he took it at truenamer 3.

As for his *other* trick, LOOK at it. It's completely described.

He uses Substitute Domain to re-pick his Domain for Div Crusader. BY CChamp, this lets him take one devotion feat *instead*, and he dismiss it (since it has the [D] tag) at will, heading straight back to his Knowledge Domain and a full spell list.

He doesn't permanently switch Domain, he temporarily switches it. Since whether a skill is a class skill or not only matter on levelling, his points remain, with the only potential issue being if any suddenly gain the cross-class cap on skill ranks, but Truenamer has them all as class skills, so no cap is applied.

He's not switching out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion, I know.

He *IS* switching out knowledge domain for any other domain, or it's associated devotion.

When he temporarily switches out his domain, he loses the knowledge domain's ability, that of having every knowledge skill as a class skill. As such, the knowledge skills which are not on his class list (most of them) go cross-class, and effectively are cut in half.

That affects his Knowledge devotion checks. Not because he's switching it out for knowledge devotion, which he already purchased as a separate feat, but because when he, for example, switches to Law Devotion, he loses the Knowledge Domain, and the associated knowledge skills with it.

Truenamer may have the knowledge skills, but Divine Champion sure doesn't.

[term1nally s1ck]

You don't *lose* skills when they become cross class. It only affects you when you level up. When he levels, they are class skills -> he can purchase ranks for 1 point.

There are two separate concepts here. Skill Points, which you get on levelling, and Skill Ranks, which you get using skill points. Once you have your Ranks, very little can remove them.

Or are you saying that if you had maxed Know(Arcana) cross-class, then retrained your L3 feat into Know Dev and picked Know (Arcana) that you'd suddenly get twice as many skill ranks in it?

The *only* thing that matters is whether it was ever a class skill, for the half level+1/2 skill cap on cross class skills, or if he levels while under the effect of Substitute Domain.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You don't *lose* skills when they become cross class. It only affects you when you level up. When he levels, they are class skills -> he can purchase ranks for 1 point.

There are two separate concepts here. Skill Points, which you get on levelling, and Skill Ranks, which you get using skill points. Once you have your Ranks, very little can remove them.

Or are you saying that if you had maxed Know(Arcana) cross-class, then retrained your L3 feat into Know Dev and picked Know (Arcana) that you'd suddenly get twice as many skill ranks in it?

I'm calling shenanigans on that.

When skills are no longer class skills, the ranks are recalculated based on the number of skill points put into the skill, which only count for half value when cross-class. Hence the effective reduction of ranks.

The *only* thing that matters is whether it was ever a class skill, for the half level+1/2 skill cap on cross class skills, or if he levels while under the effect of Substitute Domain.

Now that's definitely wrong, otherwise there'd be no need for Able Learner.

[Hecuba]

I'm calling shenanigans on that.

When skills are no longer class skills, the ranks are recalculated based on the number of skill points put into the skill, which only count for half value when cross-class. Hence the effective reduction of ranks.

Now that's definitely wrong, otherwise there'd be no need for Able Learner.

There are two elements for Skill rank purchase: cost-per-rank and maximum ranks.

Maximum ranks carry over-- if it's a class skill for at least one of your classes, your can purchase up to the class skill cap (CL+3). If not, it's half that.

Cost-per-rank is a level by level issue. If it's on the class skill list for the class in which you are taking a level, you buy at the class skill rate. If not (even if it is a class skill for a different class you already have) you buy at the cross-class rate.

As an aside, Able Learner changes the purchase rate for cross-class, but does not change the maximum ranks for cross-class.


Edit: Read the conversation closer.

The skill rules are structured as rules about purchase Shneekey, not state rules. You get points for leveling, and you can spend them on ranks according to the rules outlined above.

The emphasis is that those rules govern how you spend skill points. They care about, but don't operate on skill ranks.

[term1nally s1ck]

PHB page 61. The first page of the Skills chapter. Go read it. It talks about Points purchasing Ranks, and you quite obviously haven't understood the concept.

At no time in any ruletext ever does it talk about the number of Points in a Skill. You use Skill Points to buy Skill Ranks, and you have a limit on your Ranks in cross-class skills.

If you are multiclass, and have 1 level in 2 classes, it doesn't matter one jot if you spent 3 points and bought 3 ranks as a class skill, or spent 6 points to buy 3 ranks as a cross-class skill. You have 3 ranks in that skill. The points are gone, spent, used up.

It also explicitly says later on that if a skill is ever a class skill, it has the skill rank cap of level +3, regardless if future classes have it as a class skill or not.

The *only* thing that matters when you select your skill ranks is whether it is a class skill *right then*, on the levelup, when you spend the skill points.

[Cieyrin]

Oy! We're getting angst-y about Judge rulings again! Knock it off, I don't want a build to get pulled!

[term1nally s1ck]

When it's an actual mechanical mistake, it needs to be corrected. When it comes to your opinion on the viability and power of a build, whatever, that's your opinion. If you're judging based on incorrect rules knowledge, that *needs* to be corrected, and was initially done so by our Chairman, only for it to be argued against.

[Piggy Knowles]

He's already agreed to give a bump in elegance after admitting that the trick works. This is really turning silly. It also doesn't really seem like a way to encourage judges to participate, and participate quickly and thoroughly, as Shneeky did.

I don't personally think that ranks spent become half-ranks if a class skill turns into a non-class skill, but ultimately, the skill portion of the game wasn't written with the idea of gaining and losing class skills like that in mind. To say that this is a perfectly cut and dried issue is just patently false. So can we give it a rest? Or at least move the conversation to PMs, so that it doesn't bog down this thread?

[term1nally s1ck]

When he comes in with a high-handed post like this one, and then follows up by being wrong about half of the mechanical criticisms he makes, it's not conducive to a good contest, and it's not participating thoroughly to judge a build that you have not understood.

And yes, it is very clear. Skill points are obtained and spent on levelling, and you purchase ranks based on whether they are class or cross class. Once you have the skill ranks, you have the skill ranks, not skill points. Changing back to cross-class after you have the ranks doesn't affect them.

[Draz74]

Oy! We're getting angst-y about Judge rulings again! Knock it off, I don't want a build to get pulled!

This. I don't think Shneeky is misunderstanding anything about the build at this point ... so, regardless of whether you agree with the reasons that he gave the scores that he did, at this point I say we respect his role as a judge and leave his scores be.

Appeals to judges are to correct misunderstandings, not to change the judges minds (especially about rather poorly-defined areas of the game rules).

[term1nally s1ck]

Fine, I'll leave it, but if you honestly think it is poorly defined you need to go read the start of the skills chapter in the PHB again. It's VERY well defined when you have points, ranks, and when you spend and gain them, and it is very well defined what cross class skills mean.

[Private-Prinny]

I was gone for one day, people. One. Day.

Re: Sortes's Knowledge Ranks

It is outright stated that he keeps Knowledge Domain on when he levels, so he can spend 1 Skill Point/rank for knowledge skills. His cap on maximum ranks never changes, since

Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3.

Finally, there is Curmudgeon's opinion on what happens when a skill becomes cross-class.

A 195

Skill ranks do not change retroactively. Losing a class skill will reduce the maximum rank cap, but this limit is applied only when spending new skill points. It would be impossible for the character to increase their Hide ranks for quite a few levels unless they found another way to make it a class skill again.

In short: Sortes maintains a constant cap on his knowledge skills, and the ranks he purchased as class skills remain even after they go cross-class. If he leveled up while they were cross-class, he would not be able to invest any skill points, but he explicitly states that he goes back to the Knowledge Domain to level up. Sortes can increase his knowledge skills normally, and they stay where they are after that.

This argument is over.

[Draz74]

Fine, I'll leave it, but if you honestly think it is poorly defined you need to go read the start of the skills chapter in the PHB again. It's VERY well defined when you have points, ranks, and when you spend and gain them, and it is very well defined what cross class skills mean.

Yes, but when they wrote the PHB, the possibility of a class skill becoming cross-class for the same character was obviously not something they were trying to cover. I'm not sure such a possibility even exists in Core, and even if it does, we all know the rule-writers weren't exactly amazing rule-lawyers.

It's poorly defined by omission. The rules don't say anything about what to do in a situation that the authors didn't think would ever happen. Natch.

I'm sorry if my plea for "Drop it, let's move on" belittled your opinion on the issue. I happen to agree with you about how skills should work. I gave Sartes' scores thusly. But I'm ready to respect Shneeky's scores nonetheless.

(And geez, this build is currently winning anyway. It's not like it will get a cooler trophy for winning by a greater margin!)

[Ditto]

Thanks for going to where all such disputed disputes ought to go, Prinny: The RAW thread and Curmudegeon's happy oversight. Once each side throws down a position, and each side disagrees once, kick it to the ostensibly neutral party. Our spectatorial duty is to raise possible factual errors; if not accepted by the judge, the RAW thread can adjudicate them.

[Darrin]

So... are we done, or are we still waiting for more judges?

[Private-Prinny]

So... are we done, or are we still waiting for more judges?

The judging deadline isn't over until next Wednesday. If there was a bigger margin between first and second place, I might have closed it yesterday.

[BinaryMage]

The judging deadline isn't over until next Wednesday. If there was a bigger margin between first and second place, I might have closed it yesterday.

Alas, I am on vacation and away from my sourcebook collection, so I will not be able to fairly judge without being able to look up rules. I think most of the judges already have been excellent, however, so I think that the contest would be well judged even if it was closed now, but I agree that the deadline should be kept as-is because some entries are quite close.

[BobVosh]

Well who is left to judge?

[Private-Prinny]

Well who is left to judge?

Anyone who decides to.

[Amphetryon]

One day left for prospective judges.

[Private-Prinny]

Ok, time's up.

In first place, OMG PONIES's Sortes!
In second place, Piggy Knowles's Vald Lokkur!
In third place, Kefkafreak's Braham!
In fourth, Vandicus's Deckard Malgus!
In fifth, gbprime's Nefarious Tate!
In sixth, AMFV's Glimwyn Mardwicket!
In seventh, term1nally s1ck's Mother Teresa!
In eighth, DeAnno's Mighty Casey!
In ninth, kestrel404's Uruk!
In tenth, Groverfield's Mad Maks!
In eleventh, Hecuba's Norrin Radd!

And in a dramatic twist, DeAnno, kestrel404, and Hecuba are all tied for honorable mention!

I'll send the names off to Strategos, and start a new round on Sunday.

[Amphetryon]

But. . . but Sunday is DAYS from now! *twitch*

Congratulations to all the contestants. I didn't expect a three-way tie for Honorable Mention; that indicates a lot of builds were of noteworthy quality.

[Arundel]

The truenamer won the optimization challenge.

I'm gonna need a minute.