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2011-08-23, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Depends on the domain and feat. Know Dev is *MUCH* better than the Domain for a cleric who has another domain or two to pick spells from..
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2011-08-23, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Some of them are more powerful than others, and furthermore, you can always pick up the devotion feat as a feat rather than trading out the domain. Also, some builds don't rely on casting (the infamous 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion found in some melee builds).
Travel Devotion is a good example as well. The Travel Domain has some awesome spells, including all your 'party taxi cab' spells. However, for a Swift Hunter, Travel Devotion means getting off a full attack, and activating your precision damage at the same time..
So it depends. For a full-cleric? Few devotion feats are worth trading a domain for. But for dips? They can be exceedingly handy.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-08-23, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
While this answers the point about swapping domains for devotion feats quite nicely, it seems that you've yet to respond to the fact that all Knowledge skills are always in-class for Sortes. He picked up Knowledge Devotion outside of Divine Crusader and specifically mentions sticking with the Knowledge Domain upon DC level-ups. Do you have any comments in that regard (especially since it seems like "cross-class" ranks seemed to earn a deduction from you)?
On an unrelated note, was anyone in this thread the one who submitted Manifestation of Retribution in Round XXI? The spreadsheet must know!
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2011-08-23, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
If he is switching out his Knowledge domain for another domain, all his Knowledge skills suddenly become cross-class, because he no longer has the domain ability from the Knowledge domain. Thus, while he has access to other domains, he does so at the price of halving most of his Knowledge Devotion damage output modifiers.
Having said that, he does get a bump in Elegance, because the trick DOES work, so I need to remove the half-point deduction for using a trick that doesn't work. One moment while I update the post.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2011-08-23 at 11:49 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-08-24, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2011-08-24, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- In an Octopus's Garden
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-08-24, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
SHneeky, he got Know Dev WITHOUT SWAPPING THE DOMAIN. That's 4 times it's been said now. Look at the class progression, he took it at truenamer 3.
As for his *other* trick, LOOK at it. It's completely described.
He uses Substitute Domain to re-pick his Domain for Div Crusader. BY CChamp, this lets him take one devotion feat *instead*, and he dismiss it (since it has the [D] tag) at will, heading straight back to his Knowledge Domain and a full spell list.
He doesn't permanently switch Domain, he temporarily switches it. Since whether a skill is a class skill or not only matter on levelling, his points remain, with the only potential issue being if any suddenly gain the cross-class cap on skill ranks, but Truenamer has them all as class skills, so no cap is applied.
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2011-08-24, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
He's not switching out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion, I know.
He *IS* switching out knowledge domain for any other domain, or it's associated devotion.
When he temporarily switches out his domain, he loses the knowledge domain's ability, that of having every knowledge skill as a class skill. As such, the knowledge skills which are not on his class list (most of them) go cross-class, and effectively are cut in half.
That affects his Knowledge devotion checks. Not because he's switching it out for knowledge devotion, which he already purchased as a separate feat, but because when he, for example, switches to Law Devotion, he loses the Knowledge Domain, and the associated knowledge skills with it.
Truenamer may have the knowledge skills, but Divine Champion sure doesn't.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2011-08-24 at 09:46 AM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-08-24, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
You don't *lose* skills when they become cross class. It only affects you when you level up. When he levels, they are class skills -> he can purchase ranks for 1 point.
There are two separate concepts here. Skill Points, which you get on levelling, and Skill Ranks, which you get using skill points. Once you have your Ranks, very little can remove them.
Or are you saying that if you had maxed Know(Arcana) cross-class, then retrained your L3 feat into Know Dev and picked Know (Arcana) that you'd suddenly get twice as many skill ranks in it?
The *only* thing that matters is whether it was ever a class skill, for the half level+1/2 skill cap on cross class skills, or if he levels while under the effect of Substitute Domain.
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2011-08-24, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I'm calling shenanigans on that.
When skills are no longer class skills, the ranks are recalculated based on the number of skill points put into the skill, which only count for half value when cross-class. Hence the effective reduction of ranks.
The *only* thing that matters is whether it was ever a class skill, for the half level+1/2 skill cap on cross class skills, or if he levels while under the effect of Substitute Domain.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-08-24, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Clockwork Nirvana
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
There are two elements for Skill rank purchase: cost-per-rank and maximum ranks.
Maximum ranks carry over-- if it's a class skill for at least one of your classes, your can purchase up to the class skill cap (CL+3). If not, it's half that.
Cost-per-rank is a level by level issue. If it's on the class skill list for the class in which you are taking a level, you buy at the class skill rate. If not (even if it is a class skill for a different class you already have) you buy at the cross-class rate.
As an aside, Able Learner changes the purchase rate for cross-class, but does not change the maximum ranks for cross-class.
Edit: Read the conversation closer.
The skill rules are structured as rules about purchase Shneekey, not state rules. You get points for leveling, and you can spend them on ranks according to the rules outlined above.
The emphasis is that those rules govern how you spend skill points. They care about, but don't operate on skill ranks.Last edited by Hecuba; 2011-08-24 at 10:22 AM.
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2011-08-24, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
PHB page 61. The first page of the Skills chapter. Go read it. It talks about Points purchasing Ranks, and you quite obviously haven't understood the concept.
At no time in any ruletext ever does it talk about the number of Points in a Skill. You use Skill Points to buy Skill Ranks, and you have a limit on your Ranks in cross-class skills.
If you are multiclass, and have 1 level in 2 classes, it doesn't matter one jot if you spent 3 points and bought 3 ranks as a class skill, or spent 6 points to buy 3 ranks as a cross-class skill. You have 3 ranks in that skill. The points are gone, spent, used up.
It also explicitly says later on that if a skill is ever a class skill, it has the skill rank cap of level +3, regardless if future classes have it as a class skill or not.
The *only* thing that matters when you select your skill ranks is whether it is a class skill *right then*, on the levelup, when you spend the skill points.
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2011-08-24, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Wisconsin
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Oy! We're getting angst-y about Judge rulings again! Knock it off, I don't want a build to get pulled!
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2011-08-24, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
When it's an actual mechanical mistake, it needs to be corrected. When it comes to your opinion on the viability and power of a build, whatever, that's your opinion. If you're judging based on incorrect rules knowledge, that *needs* to be corrected, and was initially done so by our Chairman, only for it to be argued against.
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2011-08-24, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
He's already agreed to give a bump in elegance after admitting that the trick works. This is really turning silly. It also doesn't really seem like a way to encourage judges to participate, and participate quickly and thoroughly, as Shneeky did.
I don't personally think that ranks spent become half-ranks if a class skill turns into a non-class skill, but ultimately, the skill portion of the game wasn't written with the idea of gaining and losing class skills like that in mind. To say that this is a perfectly cut and dried issue is just patently false. So can we give it a rest? Or at least move the conversation to PMs, so that it doesn't bog down this thread?
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2011-08-24, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
When he comes in with a high-handed post like this one, and then follows up by being wrong about half of the mechanical criticisms he makes, it's not conducive to a good contest, and it's not participating thoroughly to judge a build that you have not understood.
And yes, it is very clear. Skill points are obtained and spent on levelling, and you purchase ranks based on whether they are class or cross class. Once you have the skill ranks, you have the skill ranks, not skill points. Changing back to cross-class after you have the ranks doesn't affect them.
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2011-08-24, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
This. I don't think Shneeky is misunderstanding anything about the build at this point ... so, regardless of whether you agree with the reasons that he gave the scores that he did, at this point I say we respect his role as a judge and leave his scores be.
Appeals to judges are to correct misunderstandings, not to change the judges minds (especially about rather poorly-defined areas of the game rules).You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2011-08-24, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Fine, I'll leave it, but if you honestly think it is poorly defined you need to go read the start of the skills chapter in the PHB again. It's VERY well defined when you have points, ranks, and when you spend and gain them, and it is very well defined what cross class skills mean.
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2011-08-24, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
I was gone for one day, people. One. Day.
Re: Sortes's Knowledge Ranks
It is outright stated that he keeps Knowledge Domain on when he levels, so he can spend 1 Skill Point/rank for knowledge skills. His cap on maximum ranks never changes, sinceOriginally Posted by Player's Handbook p.61
This argument is over.Quotebox
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2011-08-24, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Utah
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Yes, but when they wrote the PHB, the possibility of a class skill becoming cross-class for the same character was obviously not something they were trying to cover. I'm not sure such a possibility even exists in Core, and even if it does, we all know the rule-writers weren't exactly amazing rule-lawyers.
It's poorly defined by omission. The rules don't say anything about what to do in a situation that the authors didn't think would ever happen. Natch.
I'm sorry if my plea for "Drop it, let's move on" belittled your opinion on the issue. I happen to agree with you about how skills should work. I gave Sartes' scores thusly. But I'm ready to respect Shneeky's scores nonetheless.
(And geez, this build is currently winning anyway. It's not like it will get a cooler trophy for winning by a greater margin!)You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2011-08-24, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Thanks for going to where all such disputed disputes ought to go, Prinny: The RAW thread and Curmudegeon's happy oversight. Once each side throws down a position, and each side disagrees once, kick it to the ostensibly neutral party. Our spectatorial duty is to raise possible factual errors; if not accepted by the judge, the RAW thread can adjudicate them.
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2011-08-25, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
So... are we done, or are we still waiting for more judges?
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2011-08-25, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Quotebox
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2011-08-25, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Alas, I am on vacation and away from my sourcebook collection, so I will not be able to fairly judge without being able to look up rules. I think most of the judges already have been excellent, however, so I think that the contest would be well judged even if it was closed now, but I agree that the deadline should be kept as-is because some entries are quite close.
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future." - Galadriel
Homebrew Creations:
Dragon-Mounted Mage [3.5e PrC]
Currently DMing:
Age of Worms:Recruitment (Closed)|IC|OOC
Like D&D and video games? Try League of Legends.
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2011-08-26, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Well who is left to judge?
Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2011-08-26, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
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2011-08-30, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
One day left for prospective judges.
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2011-08-31, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
Ok, time's up.
In first place, OMG PONIES's Sortes!
In second place, Piggy Knowles's Vald Lokkur!
In third place, Kefkafreak's Braham!
In fourth, Vandicus's Deckard Malgus!
In fifth, gbprime's Nefarious Tate!
In sixth, AMFV's Glimwyn Mardwicket!
In seventh, term1nally s1ck's Mother Teresa!
In eighth, DeAnno's Mighty Casey!
In ninth, kestrel404's Uruk!
In tenth, Groverfield's Mad Maks!
In eleventh, Hecuba's Norrin Radd!
And in a dramatic twist, DeAnno, kestrel404, and Hecuba are all tied for honorable mention!
I'll send the names off to Strategos, and start a new round on Sunday.Quotebox
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2011-08-31, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
But. . . but Sunday is DAYS from now! *twitch*
Congratulations to all the contestants. I didn't expect a three-way tie for Honorable Mention; that indicates a lot of builds were of noteworthy quality.
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2011-08-31, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII
The truenamer won the optimization challenge.
I'm gonna need a minute.