She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[Saidoro]

We seem to be miscommunicating a bit.
Arcanist, your engine does not work on its own because while it can set the direction of thrust freely it has no way of controlling its magnitude. Your ship can't turn off its engine and it can't make small delicate changes to position. That's great for interstellar travel but you'd need something more precise to control it in atmosphere or near other objects.

This is a basic Omnicrat engine as I understand it, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong:

Spoiler

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You've got a metal sheet with a semispace on one side(the thick black line) combined with a cabin with a weighted cube firmly attached to one side such that the semispace covers the cube(Weight is shaded box, weight in semispace is dashed box, cabin is empty box). On the same side of the cabin as the cube you've got a gravity field pointing away from the cabin(the blue box, arrow indicates direction). You also have some means of controlling the distance between the sheet and the cabin (I'm just showing a push-pull rod directly bolted to the sheet, though more complex means are possible). When the sheet is right next to the cabin the gravity field has negligible effect, the weighted cube is weightless in the semispace and the weight of the sheet is negligible. Moving the sheet away from the cabin allows you to move more or less of the weighted cube in or out of semispace, with any amount that's out being affected by the gravity field and thereby exerting a force on the cabin to which it is attached, the more weight exposed the larger the force.

And here is the vessel Omnicrat described using his drives:

Spoiler

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(There are two more drives facing towards and away from you which are not illustrated)
You've got the one drive at the top which provides forward thrust and the four side drives which are used to steer and help maintain altitude, activating the front one pulls you forward while activating a side drive will pull you in that direction while causing the ship to rotate around its center of mass turning it in a wide arc. Honestly, I don't think much of this design. The engines are going to be working against each other in anything but straight up and down motion and it's impossible to orient parallel to your direction of motion while in an external gravity field which is bound to generate lots of drag. Making it into a cube instead of a rectangle would solve both of those problems, but would make it impossible to rotate the thing without significantly increasing the complexity of the sheet's distance controls(and even then it would turn very slowly).

And here is my proposed ship:

Spoiler

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you've got two weights in gravity fields controlled by a single heuristic circuit(technically you don't even need the circuit, you could just drill a path to the center of the weight and have crewmen change direction manually). Both weights should be equidistant from and on opposite sides of the ship's center of mass. The two weights can have their gravity set in identical directions to accelerate as quickly as possible in that direction, they can be set partially or fully opposing each other with opposing moments to accelerate more slowly or not at all and they can be set partially or fully opposing each other with matching moments to rotate in any direction with or without movement. It requires significantly less gramarie, doesn't oppose itself and can be streamlined for atmospheric flight or pressurized for space flight far more easily than the ship Omnicrat proposed.

Any further questions? Can anyone explain why I just spent over an hour designing and describing propulsion systems for imaginary spaceships when I have real engineering homework to do?

[Silvernale]

Sea turtles mate, sea turtles... All joking aside, Space travel and normal flight, without having to burn through ebbs unnecessarily by simply altering gravity to meet your traveling demands most often through the use of YGGD 212.

... Savvy?

ROFL what about the rope?

Omnicrat - All of it! How would a gramarist go about making the classic "flying galleon" airship? What principles would be needed? How would it work? Halp?

[Omnicrat]

Well, I'm sorry, but the image of moving items in and out of semi-spaces inspires the sight of levers. It can be anything from a steering wheel to a button to a sign that says "left" and "right" for all I care. Since you are moving objects inside of multiple semi-spaces to interact with a single object (i.e. moving weighted objects outside of a flux and into a flux to navigate).

Okay, here is where I think a big part of the problem was coming from. I am not moving any objects inside any semispaces. I am moving objects in the primary plane which have semispaces attached to them over different objects (hereafter referred to as weights) in the primary plane, thereby moving them into the semispace. None of this apparatus exists inside any semisapces. The Weights are in fixed positions and semispaces move over them to create the effect of less matter or more matter or no matter* attached to the ship in the flux. I was picturing levers too, just none inside semispaces.

Blueprints are not single use items meaning that an entire group can use the same principle on a Blueprint over and over again or as a team. Just making a single Blueprint is more than enough.

It does work multiple times, but only for improving the original preparation it was used to make, not creating totally new ones. Also, it is not unskilled labor. It simply requires no training in gramarie. You still have to mad a DC 20 check in the appropriate skill.

... Yes, cars do not fly and planes move in 3-dimensions using a stick grip. A Stick grip would be an example of how the control point would look. It can also be a ball-control or a tri-dimensional steering wheel for all that matters.

Since the flux is in the shape of a sphere (or "bubble") simply directing the stick grip in the proper direction is enough to pilot it, meaning that any dimension a plane can fly in, the TaRDiS can also fly. As much as I'd love for the TaRDiS to have 6 control points, to keep with canon, it is suboptimal to do so.

unless you are pushing against standard gravity with equal force, your ship will fall to the earth. Normal gravity still effects the parts not inside the flux, after all. The only way this would not happen is if your whole ship is in the flux, in which case, how does it land/hover?

God forbid your vessel lands and can no longer ELEVATE because the fluxes are still pulling the vessel downwards towards the ground, since of course you have no way to turn off/on your flux without getting out.

...okay... There are no fluxes pulling the vessel downwards, so I've got no idea what your talking about. Why don't you PM me your skype so we can talk about this in real tim?

You can do all of this without including a Semi-space in your ships design.

Do you mean the semispaces I use to control the weight in the fluxes or the portal? Because you can't really have a portal ship without a portal... How would those things be accomplished without a portal?

It is 3 months old. It was a reference to the ideas of using an inferior model when a superior model and already functioning model is already present.

... you have yet to say a model as effective as this with as few different principles. This isn't the best thing that could be made. Its the best thing with as few different principles at as low a level as possible.

T'was, just teasing you good sir

I figured it was a joke, but might have had an acctuall complaint based upon confusion. I got the humor of it.

How are you moving the weight into and out of the Semi-space? Better yet, why does this require the pilot to even make a skill check?

Try to make your design as idiot-proof as humanly possible. A skill check is an act of chance, I sincerely don't consider it optimal to rely upon something as fickle as chance to accomplish your flight skills.

The semispaces move over the fixed position of the weights.

The pilot wouldn't need a skillcheck to do this, but would probably need one to calculate optimal courses without eyeballing it. These courses can be pre-calculated and put into a book for ease of use. I do not expect these checks to be done every time the vessel is piloted, only every time you want to go to and/or from someplace new. Still, you could take 20 on it (since you should have time) and/or have other people do the check too and go with the rout most people came up with.

Alternative: Miss a skill check by 1 and crash, with your tether taking at minimum 1d6 (if you were only flying for 1 round).

I imagine I will have more to say on this matter once you tell how you are controlling the weight in the fluxs.

Not what the skill checks are for and I just explained that.

Already explained that too.

Both of those in this post, so its not like you could have known (other than by understanding what I meant in the first place, but if you did that this post would most likely not even exist )

Descend at an angle and when nested above the ground at around 1ft from the ground deactivate the flux and land roughly, but with no effect to the Semi-Space inside. This option is available because of it's omni-directional steering, however it is not available with strictly 3-dimensional steering as with your vessel.

Lol, I wish I understood what you didn't get. That is strictly worse than mine, but you think its better. Hopefully we'll have this sorted out in a few posts.

Also, when you say semispace, what do you mean? A portal? A demiplane? A standard 2x2 semispace? I think there is something here I'm missing, and thats a big part of our communication problem.

I'm curious how you are increasing and decreasing the mass of an object, while still keeping in with the Laws of Thermodynamics?

Not literally. Moving it into and out of semispaces. You never reduce the mass inside the flux.

I understand quite well, old chum I'm curious how its pilot mechanics work for this model

The body on the other end makes Str checks you have to resist when it interacts with the world. This way you don't just break things by picking them up, or touching them. You can choose to automatically fail these checks. You can turn off these checks for what I like to think of as "Hulk Smash" mode. The muscle membrane covering your body replicates your movements with the Chassis body. I'm not sure if it will have built-in cler(voy/audi)ance silverouts for sensory perception or unique grafts.

So basically place a small portal tethered to an object (say a medium sized bag) too be used for travel...

Okay, you seem to be using portal and semispace interchangeably and that is a problem. Semispaces are 2x2 (or more) areas of extra-dimensional space created by YGGD 101. A portal is a link between two semispaces created by YGGD 241.

Regardless of what you mean, no, not that. I'm just going to grossly over-simplyfy it so we don't spend another 10 posts arguing about this. You have 2 seperate 2x2 semispaces, on in your home location and one on your ship. Link them and crawl through.

[Saidoro]

...okay... There are no fluxes pulling the vessel downwards, so I've got no idea what your talking about. Why don't you PM me your skype so we can talk about this in real tim?

I believe he was referring to what would happen if your ship landed engine-side down. That really isn't how it's intended to land, but that still isn't an issue because the weights are generally denser than the ground.

Do you mean the semispaces I use to control the weight in the fluxes or the portal? Because you can't really have a portal ship without a portal... How would those things be accomplished without a portal?

What, precisely, do you mean by portal ship?

... you have yet to say a model as effective as this with as few different principles. This isn't the best thing that could be made. Its the best thing with as few different principles at as low a level as possible.

I have. Look at my post at the top of this page.

[Omnicrat]

We seem to be miscommunicating a bit.
Arcanist, your engine does not work on its own because while it can set the direction of thrust freely it has no way of controlling its magnitude. Your ship can't turn off its engine and it can't make small delicate changes to position. That's great for interstellar travel but you'd need something more precise to control it in atmosphere or near other objects.

This is a basic Omnicrat engine as I understand it, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong:

Spoiler

Show

You've got a metal sheet with a semispace on one side(the thick black line) combined with a cabin with a weighted cube firmly attached to one side such that the semispace covers the cube(Weight is shaded box, weight in semispace is dashed box, cabin is empty box). On the same side of the cabin as the cube you've got a gravity field pointing away from the cabin(the blue box, arrow indicates direction). You also have some means of controlling the distance between the sheet and the cabin (I'm just showing a push-pull rod directly bolted to the sheet, though more complex means are possible). When the sheet is right next to the cabin the gravity field has negligible effect, the weighted cube is weightless in the semispace and the weight of the sheet is negligible. Moving the sheet away from the cabin allows you to move more or less of the weighted cube in or out of semispace, with any amount that's out being affected by the gravity field and thereby exerting a force on the cabin to which it is attached, the more weight exposed the larger the force.

And here is the vessel Omnicrat described using his drives:

Spoiler

Show

(There are two more drives facing towards and away from you which are not illustrated)
You've got the one drive at the top which provides forward thrust and the four side drives which are used to steer and help maintain altitude, activating the front one pulls you forward while activating a side drive will pull you in that direction while causing the ship to rotate around its center of mass turning it in a wide arc. Honestly, I don't think much of this design. The engines are going to be working against each other in anything but straight up and down motion and it's impossible to orient parallel to your direction of motion while in an external gravity field which is bound to generate lots of drag. Making it into a cube instead of a rectangle would solve both of those problems, but would make it impossible to rotate the thing without significantly increasing the complexity of the sheet's distance controls(and even then it would turn very slowly).

And here is my proposed ship:

Spoiler

Show

you've got two weights in gravity fields controlled by a single heuristic circuit(technically you don't even need the circuit, you could just drill a path to the center of the weight and have crewmen change direction manually). Both weights should be equidistant from and on opposite sides of the ship's center of mass. The two weights can have their gravity set in identical directions to accelerate as quickly as possible in that direction, they can be set partially or fully opposing each other with opposing moments to accelerate more slowly or not at all and they can be set partially or fully opposing each other with matching moments to rotate in any direction with or without movement. It requires significantly less gramarie, doesn't oppose itself and can be streamlined for atmospheric flight or pressurized for space flight far more easily than the ship Omnicrat proposed.

Any further questions? Can anyone explain why I just spent over an hour designing and describing propulsion systems for imaginary spaceships when I have real engineering homework to do?

I believe I understand your ship fully now (I probably don't, but I believe I do ), but you still made some mistakes about mine. The first part is exactly right, but you made some mistakes in describing how it functions. The drive at the top creates buoyancy, not forward momentum. Its how you go up and down. Once you get the the altitude you want, you have its fluxed-weight equal that of the cabin, creating a net-zero weight with regard to normal gravity. You then gain momentum by using the side-drives. The ship doesn't rotate, it moves in a straight line based upon how much weight is in each effecting semispace. Think of the front facing drive as movement with regard to Y and the side facing drive as movement with regard to X. The top is movement with regard to Z. Its a bit hard to picture how this works, because its so alien to how reality works. When you have a net-zero weight with regard to normal gravity, it has no negative effect on momentum. The only time a negative effect on momentum takes place is when two opposing drives are active at the same time, which one would have not reason to ever do. That said, my method is terrible for spaceflight, especially compared to yours.

You're seems to have on major issue. How does it not fall out of the sky?

Because impossible physics are more fun to engineer with!

Edit:

I believe he was referring to what would happen if your ship landed engine-side down. That really isn't how it's intended to land, but that still isn't an issue because the weights are generally denser than the ground.

Ah. Did not get that. It can't happen. Gravity fluxes remain relative to gravity if not otherwise changed, so even if the ship somehow flipped upside-down, which would be hard (I'm not sure how it would), it would still not be pulled down.

What, precisely, do you mean by portal ship?

Any vessel that contains a Yggdratecture portal.

I have. Look at my post at the top of this page.

Yes, you have. And one you explain how it doesn't fall out of the sky (which it should right now) I'll probably use that as the best model for the desired goal instead of this.

[Saidoro]

I believe I understand your ship fully now (I probably don't, but I believe I do ), but you still made some mistakes about mine. The first part is exactly right, but you made some mistakes in describing how it functions. The drive at the top creates buoyancy, not forward momentum. Its how you go up and down. Once you get the the altitude you want, you have its fluxed-weight equal that of the cabin, creating a net-zero weight with regard to normal gravity. You then gain momentum by using the side-drives. The ship doesn't rotate, it moves in a straight line based upon how much weight is in each effecting semispace. Think of the front facing drive as movement with regard to Y and the side facing drive as movement with regard to X. The top is movement with regard to Z. Its a bit hard to picture how this works, because its so alien to how reality works. When you have a net-zero weight with regard to normal gravity, it has no negative effect on momentum. The only time a negative effect on momentum takes place is when two opposing drives are active at the same time, which one would have not reason to ever do. That said, my method is terrible for spaceflight, especially compared to yours.

Even if momentum didn't cause it to rotate(and I'm a bit fuzzy on why it doesn't, it's been two years since I took dynamics) the force of air resistance located at the center of the leading face would still cause rotation when taken together with the separately located engine.(And with the leading faces being 15'x5' flat rectangles you'll have a lot of air resistance.)

You're seems to have on major issue. How does it not fall out of the sky?

When in external gravity you'd angle the engines slightly upwards at all times to counteract it, it's something for the pilot to account for rather than being hardwired in.

Ah. Did not get that. It can't happen. Gravity fluxes remain relative to gravity if not otherwise changed, so even if the ship somehow flipped upside-down, which would be hard (I'm not sure how it would), it would still not be pulled down.

I read it as the direction of gravity being relative to the reference object, but it doesn't explicitly say which it is.

Any vessel that contains a Yggdratecture portal.

So you connect a semispace on the ship to one somewhere else? Makes sense.(Also deals with oxygen supply, muscular atrophy and spare parts when you're traveling through space.)

[Omnicrat]

Even if momentum didn't cause it to rotate(and I'm a bit fuzzy on why it doesn't, it's been two years since I took dynamics) the force of air resistance located at the center of the leading face would still cause rotation.

Not it doesn't, because D&D physics is not physics.

When in external gravity you'd angle the engines slightly upwards at all times to counteract it, it's something for the pilot to account for rather than being hardwired in.

This still gives you less control than in my model, then. A combination of the two seems like it would be best, where my model is used to make the vessel normal gravity-neutral and yours is the actual means of propulsion. If you aren't using heuristics, you do need two pilots working in tandem, however.

I read it as the direction of gravity being relative to the reference object, but it doesn't explicitly say which it is.

Kellus said specifically its with regard to the direction of normal gravity at one point in the passed 43 pages.

So you connect a semispace on the ship to one somewhere else? Makes sense.(Also deals with oxygen supply, muscular atrophy and spare parts when you're traveling through space.)

Atrophy is also fixed by having an internal flux that doesn't effect your ships systems.

[Saidoro]

Not it doesn't, because D&D physics is not physics.

True, but I see no reason why D&D physics wouldn't include air resistance.

This still gives you less control than in my model, then. A combination of the two seems like it would be best, where my model is used to make the vessel normal gravity-neutral and yours is the actual means of propulsion. If you aren't using heuristics, you do need two pilots working in tandem, however.

It does give slightly less control, but I don't see how relevant that is, each Yggdratectural engine in my design can deliver over 15 times as much force as yours assuming densities are equal. Is the slight loss in maximum acceleration really important enough to assign a whole extra engine to?
You could arguably use unseen servants as pilots.
Also, while the current model is cheapest I'd suggest more important vessels have 4, 8 or 27 engines rather than 2. With 2 you still have a front, back, top and bottom. With 4 you just have a top and bottom, and with 8 or 27 you have a cube of engines so all sides are equal.

Kellus said specifically its with regard to the direction of normal gravity at one point in the passed 43 pages.

So...wouldn't that mean that gravity fields don't work in space at all? I can see one of them setting a constant 1g field away from the ship or whatever, but if it's a constant 1-g field in the opposite direction of whatever the regular gravity is you might have problems.

[Omnicrat]

True, but I see no reason why D&D physics wouldn't include air resistance.

Fair enough. Rather than hammering all of this out, lets just make it a cylinder.

It does give slightly less control, but I don't see how relevant that is, each Yggdratectural engine in my design can deliver over 15 times as much force as yours assuming densities are equal. Is the slight loss in maximum acceleration really important enough to assign a whole extra engine to?
You could arguably use unseen servants as pilots.
Also, while the current model is cheapest I'd suggest more important vessels have 4, 8 or 27 engines rather than 2. With 2 you still have a front, back, top and bottom. With 4 you just have a top and bottom, and with 8 or 27 you have a cube of engines so all sides are equal.

... How can it do the bolded?

So...wouldn't that mean that gravity fields don't work in space at all? I can see one of them setting a constant 1g field away from the ship or whatever, but if it's a constant 1-g field in the opposite direction of whatever the regular gravity is you might have problems.

In space they are fixed in a similar way as with regard to gravity.

[Nanoblack]

True, but I see no reason why D&D physics wouldn't include air resistance.

It's not included in D&D physics because there isn't a rule printed for it. It's very vaguely emulated in the rules for falling speed, but "air resistance" isn't a thing according to this system.

[Saidoro]

... How can it do the bolded?

Me being bad at math. More seriously: the number I gave was wrong, but they can impart far more force because the engines do not need to fit inside semispaces, they can be as large as the gravity field rather than being confined to 2'x2'x2'.

[Milo v3]

Am I the only person who thinks that the costs of gramarie should be modified by the skill check used in the preparation?

Because otherwise a Silver Output Transformer Cannon made by a master with a check of 100 costs the same as a Silver Output Transformer Cannon made by a novice with a check of 1.

[Eldest]

ROFL what about the rope?

Omnicrat - All of it! How would a gramarist go about making the classic "flying galleon" airship? What principles would be needed? How would it work? Halp?

The classic "Flying Galleon" would be most simply made by putting Simple Orthogonal Engines on the back, to make it go forward, and Ascending Engines, to make it go up. You need 600 push to make it able to ascend at 30 feet per round (the minimum speed), and 3 Ascending Engines do that. That might be powered by actual fuel (not a good plan), stored energy in batteries, a generator, or any combination of these.

But that's too easy. This is mad science. So instead, here's one way of doing it (and a possible way of interstellar travel, which is the ship they're referring to): you make your hull and materials as light as possible. You can use ALCH 325: Preternatural Fluids to lower the density dramatically. Then you start looking into YGGD 212: Polarcane Geometry, specifically the gravity one. This makes it so that bubbles of the ship have gravity in a different direction than down: make half your ship this, and you now have a weightless ship. Put a few bubbles that can be controlled, and you can have (slow) movement, all without actually using engines: you're just falling in a given direction. This has the advantage of not needing nearly as much power, however, it is more complex and would require more cooperation between gramists.

[Lateral]

But that's too easy. This is mad science. So instead, here's one way of doing it (and a possible way of interstellar travel, which is the ship they're referring to): you make your hull and materials as light as possible. You can use ALCH 325: Preternatural Fluids to lower the density dramatically. Then you start looking into YGGD 212: Polarcane Geometry, specifically the gravity one. This makes it so that bubbles of the ship have gravity in a different direction than down: make half your ship this, and you now have a weightless ship. Put a few bubbles that can be controlled, and you can have (slow) movement, all without actually using engines: you're just falling in a given direction. This has the advantage of not needing nearly as much power, however, it is more complex and would require more cooperation between gramists.

Hmm...

...You know, you just gave me an idea. I think (and, to be clear, this is with a teenager's conceptual understanding of complex physics, so someone with a stronger background in the science should check me on this) that you could use the magnetic aspect of YGGD 212 to construct something effectively analogous to a negative-mass drive. Despite operating on ferrous materials, YGGD 212 doesn't really create magnetism- there are no poles. Really, it's more like creating a magnetic monopole (for attraction) and... something like a 'magnetic anti-monopole.' Unlike positive and negative charges, though, the opposite charges don't repel- rather, if you have two ferrous objects with one attractive and one repulsive monopole, the repulsive would be attracted to the attractive and the attractive would be simultaneously repelled by the repulsive, creating acceleration without an input of energy. My understanding of electromagnetism as a theory is pretty rudimentary, but as stated before, these forces don't actually act like magnetism so I don't think that that matters.

The problem with this, of course, is that unlike negative mass, this breaks conservation of momentum. Mass and velocity are both still positive, after all. Still, since this is a situation that cannot occur in the real world (because of said violation of conservation of momentum), I don't see a problem. Well, actually, I see lots of problems, but they don't specifically relate to this thing.

Still, if I'm correct, then the result you get is basically infinite acceleration with no input. Also, it's possible (and this is me extrapolating based on previous similarities, so here I'm really shaky) that you could build something analogous to Alcubierre drive out of this, which would be pretty awesome.

[Omnicrat]

Am I the only person who thinks that the costs of gramarie should be modified by the skill check used in the preparation?

Because otherwise a Silver Output Transformer Cannon made by a master with a check of 100 costs the same as a Silver Output Transformer Cannon made by a novice with a check of 1.

The pricing system needs to be re-done in general. At the end of the day, I doubt there will ever be a good pricing system. Gramarie is better than a lot of published artifacts.

[Silvernale]

The classic "Flying Galleon" would be most simply made by putting Simple Orthogonal Engines on the back, to make it go forward, and Ascending Engines, to make it go up. You need 600 push to make it able to ascend at 30 feet per round (the minimum speed), and 3 Ascending Engines do that. That might be powered by actual fuel (not a good plan), stored energy in batteries, a generator, or any combination of these.

But that's too easy. This is mad science. So instead, here's one way of doing it (and a possible way of interstellar travel, which is the ship they're referring to): you make your hull and materials as light as possible. You can use ALCH 325: Preternatural Fluids to lower the density dramatically. Then you start looking into YGGD 212: Polarcane Geometry, specifically the gravity one. This makes it so that bubbles of the ship have gravity in a different direction than down: make half your ship this, and you now have a weightless ship. Put a few bubbles that can be controlled, and you can have (slow) movement, all without actually using engines: you're just falling in a given direction. This has the advantage of not needing nearly as much power, however, it is more complex and would require more cooperation between gramists.

Ok lets try this then =D
In the Shannara novel series, they have airships that range from 2-man speeders to 200 man transport warships. They are explained this way: The sails are made of a magi-tech material that absorbs and directs solar energy through filaments called radian draws that go into diapson crystals that store the energy. This energy can be used to make the ships fly via contragravity and are directionally controlled by altering the amount of thrust from one direction or another. The diapson crystals can also be linked to weapons, creating magi-tech flamethrowers, impact cannons and flechette railguns. If a charged diapson crystal gets cracked it goes boom.

[Eldest]

Ok lets try this then =D
In the Shannara novel series, they have airships that range from 2-man speeders to 200 man transport warships. They are explained this way: The sails are made of a magi-tech material that absorbs and directs solar energy through filaments called radian draws that go into diapson crystals that store the energy. This energy can be used to make the ships fly via contragravity and are directionally controlled by altering the amount of thrust from one direction or another. The diapson crystals can also be linked to weapons, creating magi-tech flamethrowers, impact cannons and flechette railguns. If a charged diapson crystal gets cracked it goes boom.

Gold inputs, with the bubbles shaped to look like sails I guess, linked to orichalcum to store it, powering either the ascending engines or (since the gravity manipulation via Yggdratecture doesn't drain energy) the movement engines. Railguns are made by ballistic engines, flamethrowers through I'd guess ballistic engines throwing oil with a lighting mechanic, or something else involving filters and phlogiston. I'd need to know what impact cannons are to make them. Breaking orichalcum causes no boom.

[Omnicrat]

You could always keep a gramatic bomb on hand (sunmetal or otherwise) and have it go off using a contingent circuit for any time a batter cracks.

[Silvernale]

Gold inputs, with the bubbles shaped to look like sails I guess, linked to orichalcum to store it, powering either the ascending engines or (since the gravity manipulation via Yggdratecture doesn't drain energy) the movement engines. Railguns are made by ballistic engines, flamethrowers through I'd guess ballistic engines throwing oil with a lighting mechanic, or something else involving filters and phlogiston. I'd need to know what impact cannons are to make them. Breaking orichalcum causes no boom.

Impact cannons just shot out pure kinetic force.

[Omnicrat]

Impact cannons just shot out pure kinetic force.

You can shoot gravity at people.

[Geordnet]

Hm...

Has anyone considered using pairs of silver-ins/Magic Missile-outs as a means of transferring ebbs across the entrance of a semi-space? Or as a means of indefinite energy storage?

[Quester]

All you need to cross the barrier of a semi-space is physical contact between two transformers, the area of effect of a transformer can't penetrate the barrier but you can still transfer energy between them directly.

Although the indefinite storage is interesting.

[Geordnet]

Although the indefinite storage is interesting.

Actually, if you're willing to let the storage be only practically indefinite, you could make an energy storage system using only stuff you could get at first level.

Simply put multiple layers of silverin/spellout couplings. Even if there's a 50% chance of passing through each individual layer, the odds of the spell passing through all of them are practically nil if you've got enough layers. Extracting the energy from this arrangement is simply a matter of mechanically inserting a silverin "net".


Of course, when you think about it this isn't a practical, since it would require lots of work for very little storage capacity. A better way would be to hook up a series of silverin/woodouts in front of a wand of some sort.




Or better yet, make some goldin/woodouts where the gold half (and preferably some of the wood half) is inside a semi-space with a Continual Flame. That'll give you at least one ebb per cubic foot of free energy.

Still better, use crystalins and permanent Ghost Sound spells set to max volume, for at least 4 ebbs/ft^3.

Hm... Unless.....


How is the caster level for a spellout figured? I have an idea...

[pieman2945]

I posted in the MinMax board, but haven't gotten a reply so here it is.

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but I assume this works: Make a barrel, with room for at least one cubic foot of sunmetal (more will make it more powerful), with a few inches of extra space and room for an equal amount in front. Put green (for radiation), red and orange (for explosion) kaleidoscopic filters in the loose space. Set up a circuit from behind that enters into the sunmetal. Load the cannon with sunmetal behind and a projectile in front (I'm partial to Phlogiston,) and blow the sunmetal. The filters should stop all negative effects, and the projectile should be shot at about 1000 miles/second (I think, could be much more.)

Would this work?

[Conor77]

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but I assume this works: Make a barrel, with room for at least one cubic foot of sunmetal (more will make it more powerful), with a few inches of extra space and room for an equal amount in front. Put green (for radiation), red and orange (for explosion) kaleidoscopic filters in the loose space. Set up a circuit from behind that enters into the sunmetal. Load the cannon with sunmetal behind and a projectile in front (I'm partial to Phlogiston,) and blow the sunmetal. The filters should stop all negative effects, and the projectile should be shot at about 1000 miles/second (I think, could be much more.)

You'd need kaleidoscopic filters around the inside of the barrel too... Don't want all your force escaping out the sides, and most likely destroying everything around you.

That said, it looks solid. Just remember that this takes a whole lot of effort.

[pieman2945]

I posted in the MinMax board, but haven't gotten a reply so here it is.

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but I assume this works: Make a barrel, with room for at least one cubic foot of sunmetal (more will make it more powerful), with a few inches of extra space and room for an equal amount in front. Put green (for radiation), red and orange (for explosion) kaleidoscopic filters in the loose space. Set up a circuit from behind that enters into the sunmetal. Load the cannon with sunmetal behind and a projectile in front (I'm partial to Phlogiston,) and blow the sunmetal. The filters should stop all negative effects, and the projectile should be shot at about 1000 miles/second (I think, could be much more.)

Would this work?

The extra space is where the filters are.

[Conor77]

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but I assume this works: Make a barrel, with room for at least one cubic foot of sunmetal (more will make it more powerful),

with a few inches of extra space

and room for an equal amount in front

Those two were separate but they blurred together as I read them, as in, "a few inches of extra space in room for an equal amount in front", implying that all the extra room was in front, including the few inches.

:V

[Omnicrat]

Except damage still destroys filters if there is enough of it. I could be wrong, but I don't think the filters could survive a sunmetal explosion.

[Morcleon]

Except damage still destroys filters if there is enough of it. I could be wrong, but I don't think the filters could survive a sunmetal explosion.

White filters don't have a damage limit. Only things that specifically destroy a certain type of filter destroy it.

[Geordnet]

White filters don't have a damage limit. Only things that specifically destroy a certain type of filter destroy it.

That seems very OP to me. At first level, you could build yellow filter armor that would make somebody or something totally immune to most weapons, and which can only be destroyed by something that's impossible to get before 12th level. (Not counting wands etc.)

Really, yellow filters are so strong that I'd imagine they'd be used everywhere in a world with Grammarie, which in turn would lead to metal weapons falling out of use.


The rest of the filters are relatively okay, it's just yellow filters that are really broken. To fix this, I'd suggest changing yellow filters' vulnerability to Sonic, which is acquirable at much lower levels.