Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again

[fergo]

I'd really think twice about pursuing this to the next level.

I agree. Of course it's your decision, but really think hard about what's best for everyone involved.

[Shadow of the Sun]

As said above. I have hope.

I've spoken to her significantly about this; I will accept her decision and will as much as I can keep that sacrosanct.

What can I say, I'd rather give my feelings openly than let them sit unknown.

[dehro]

Thank you for the advice.

I'll think twice, although I don't think my mind will change. Falling for someone is like that, you know?

no, not really.
what you're experiencing is the rush of intimacy and affection that many people develop towards the people they share the bedroom with...especially so when it's their first experience in this field and it was a good one.

I'm going to be rude (yes, even more so), make assumptions and probably say a few things that are wrong because I don't know the details of your situation and because I'm a bit of a moron, but I feel that I would not do you a service if I painted your situation in too much of a positive light, no matter how noble, pure, well thought out your intentions may be.
anyway I'll spolerize it, both for length and to allow you to ignore my ramblings.

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assuming that you are indeed falling for her an that that may lead to something more profound, deep enough to be the foundation of a solid relationship.. even then you're mostly thinking with parts of you that aren't really designed for that purpose.

1) blind optimism
you may find her attractive and sensual and engaging and intelligent now..which is all very good, but very, very idealistic.
it's always nice when people pledge to grow old together despite this meaning that they will see one another at their worst.. but the timing here is probably more off than you're willing to admit to yourself.
there's no problem with two adults who have experienced a thing or two and who accept they have an age difference and will over come it. yes, one of them will start having trouble bending over, getting out of bed, finding their reading glasses or dentures sooner than the other..but when you're an adult you kind of know these things are going to happen to you too.
you're 21.. which means you can drink alcohol and vote... (try not to do them together).. but for the purpose of this particular situation I'm going to treat you as a rather inexperienced and "fresh" adult.
how ready are you to see her age drastically within the next 10 years, both physically and mentally? how ready are you to face her health issues as and when they crop up, clean after her, accept her "old person" mutterings against the youth of today.. see her become a grandma whilst you will very likely never have children of your own if you stick by her?.. and all of this, at the time where you will be in your prime, both sexually, professionally and.. well.. in every other defining aspect of your life..
yes, some people are ready to define the rest of their lives and start a family at 21 years of age.. a good friend of mine has a friend who has just married her daughter's ex boyfriend.. who is about your age... it seems to be working so far.
age in and of itself is not always a deciding factor.. my dad is 70, his wife 49 and they seem to be as happy with one another as you can be after some 18 years of marriage
so yes, it can work.. but those are exceptions... and very little in what you tell us makes me think that you could be one such exception.
which leads me to my second point...

2) her previous history and personal motivation
she has an important person who she is still emotionally involved with..she has a grown up child, she is in a completely different place than you are, in life and in your relationship. She's trying to tell you so in a nice way and to let you know that you're fun to be with on a short term basis but that that's all there is to it...
Put simply, you're rebound sex... possibly a fling.. most likely one that would end badly if either of you took it for more than that.
This is not a case of you and her against society and prejudice.. this is a case of you having a crush and the enthusiasm to make bold statements and plans.. whilst ignoring that it doesn't seem to be what she wants or is thinking about.
To show you that I do get where you're coming from, let me tell you that the friend I mentioned above is 12 years older than me and was 43 when we met.. she had just finalized her divorce from a sex-less marriage and was of an explorative frame of mind.
We had a lot of fun together, some good memories (not all of them related to bedroom matters), and still have something of a soft spot for one another.
However, we both knew that she didn't want anything to do with maternity (which in my case is a dealbreaker..one day I plan to raise at least one tiny me), we were not in it for the long term and were in different places in life.. so we were able to make the most of what time we had together.
I urge you to do the same..have fun, explore, do all the things together that you both feel like doing.. and when the time comes, part as friends (or stay friends, if that works out for you).

I'm not saying that your relationship would be doomed to fail because of an age difference.
however it is a factor that I don't think you have yet acquired the means to give it the proper perspective on your personal future, desires and growth..both because of your age and of a relative lack of experience in this particular field.
broad assumption here.. maybe sex is the only thing you haven't had so far and you've been in a string of relationships already, but I'm not getting that vibe.

what I AM saying is that the age difference is compounded by you two not meeting 10 years from now, with you having acquired a bit more life experience and something to compare her with.. and to top it all off, she doesn't seem to think about you the same way you seem ready to commit to her.. not by a long shot.
enoy things as they come, learn from her as much as you can and leave it at that. if it hurts you because you're getting too involved, back off or break contact altogether.

[Shadow of the Sun]

dehro: all of the points you bring up are good ones.

Regarding blind optimism: I live with someone who has been significantly crippled and unable to function on their own since I was 6. The idea of having to take care of someone is not something I have any difficulty with.

As for the intimacy: I accept that that's a possibility. However, I'd told the woman in question that if she is not interested, then I will continue to be her friend, and nothing more; if she is interested, I can say that I'm willing to give the relationship a try.

Oh, and her ex-boyfriend is about my age, too. Just by-the-by.

[dehro]

fair enough..as I said, I don't know enough to give but a superficial insight..
the situation doesn't seem as bleak as it did on my first reading about it..but most of my points still stand. that said.. good luck with things, however they may turn out

[Glass Mouse]

Actually, I think Dehro hit the nail on the head in many respects.

I want to put it in other terms: You are, when it comes to romance, inexperienced. You don't say anything about previous relationships, but I'm gonna assume that they were few and not very serious (please feel free to correct me, I don't know anything).

If that is right, you are trying to enter a relationship at (in video games terms) high difficulty.

While age differences can work, and work very well, they are a huge challenge. You need to be secure in yourself, your boundaries, your wants and emotions, etc. to handle the outside pressure, the different life situations, all that jazz.
No relationship is easy, but factors like age difference, long distances, etc. make everything much harder.

If (again, if) you are as inexperienced as it sounds, you don't have the perspective to weigh these issues and make an informed decision. I'm not saying it won't work out, but you are playing your first try on the highest setting here.

I personally think you should let it drop and go get a little more XP under your belt before trying something like a may-november relationship, but I realize you probably won't do that.
So... Be careful, take care of yourself, and probably talk it through with more experienced (preferably older) people who know you and can give you a little more of that perspective.

And good luck

[Lissou]

I'd like to extend my support. I can absolutely see a relationship with age differences work out, but it's hard to know because we only have your side. It's not uncommon for the younger party to be smitten and want something serious, while the older party isn't considering it seriously. And we don't know her side of it.

Either way, hang in there, and best wishes. I hope things work out for you.

[Coidzor]

One rather curious thing I've noticed - OKC seems to be matching me up with an awful lot of women that like theatre and musicals for some reason. Not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, just an odd quirk I've noticed.

I'm assuming that you don't particularly care for those sorts of things then? Because if so, yeah, that is pretty quirky. Then again, quirkiness seems to go with theatre people at a slightly higher incidence than the general population, so...

[Malarky]

Hi playground, first post here. Let me explain my quandary in a spoiler.

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I'm a college student, and a girl and I in one of my classes hit things off pretty well just after the new year. We sit together in tutorials and lectures, and my instinct says she is interested.

I asked her out to a play this past wednesday. She seemed pleased with the offer and said sure, depending on her schedule. I sent her the details of the timing later that evening. Here's the conversation (edited for anonymity):

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My message:
Hey [X]! I was right about the time of the show: it's at 8:00 this Friday, but getting there a bit in advance is probably a good idea, say 7:45 or so (last time I went, I was very close to being late!). Let me know if that's a good time for you, and best of luck with the [Event you're hosting] tomorrow!

The next morning, her reply:
Hi [Me],
Hope you enjoyed the [event I was at] yesterday :)
I had a sneaking suspicion that I had a commitment on Friday and
unfortunately I do :( My dad is taking me to a dinner event and we've had
it in the calendar for quite a while. I have been trying to figure out if I could reconcile it time-wise but unfortunately I just can't :(
Thank you so much for the invite though. I really appreciate it and I would
have really liked to go. :) If you ever have a spare play ticket again let
me know!
Thanks again :) Have a good weekend and see you Wednesday!
Best,
[X]

I took that response not to be just a polite way of saying "no," because she specifically invited me to ask her out again. So I sent her this:

Have a great evening with your dad, then! Thanks for trying to reconcile!
[College we both attend] has no shortage of theatre that I'd like to see, so if you're not adverse, I can get us tickets for an upcoming show. I think [college theatre group] is putting on [play] soon, which could be fun. I understand that this is a busy time of year, though, so let me know.
See you Wednesday, and enjoy your weekend!

That was late Thursday morning. I've yet to hear back from her, and I know she's been on facebook (the communication method) at least once since then.

I guess my question is: has anyone been in a situation similar to this before? I'm worried that I've somehow misread the situation. Playground, do you think I should be worried?

[snoopy13a]

Malarky,

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It is tough to say. Although, after reading through your last response, it doesn't seem that it required or necessarily solicited an immediate answer. So perhaps she'll simply talk about it Wednesday.

The other possibility is that she took your invitation to the first play as two friends going to a play instead of as a date. She may not have realized that you wanted the play to be a date until your rapid invitation to a second play. Because of this, she hasn't answered because she is trying to figure out how to decline. Under this possibility, she only wants to be friends.

It is unclear what it is. Your best strategy is not to worry about it for now and talk to her Wednesday.

[Ceric]

Hi playground, first post here. Let me explain my quandary in a spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

I'm a college student, and a girl and I in one of my classes hit things off pretty well just after the new year. We sit together in tutorials and lectures, and my instinct says she is interested.

I asked her out to a play this past wednesday. She seemed pleased with the offer and said sure, depending on her schedule. I sent her the details of the timing later that evening. Here's the conversation (edited for anonymity):

Spoiler

Show

My message:
Hey [X]! I was right about the time of the show: it's at 8:00 this Friday, but getting there a bit in advance is probably a good idea, say 7:45 or so (last time I went, I was very close to being late!). Let me know if that's a good time for you, and best of luck with the [Event you're hosting] tomorrow!

The next morning, her reply:
Hi [Me],
Hope you enjoyed the [event I was at] yesterday :)
I had a sneaking suspicion that I had a commitment on Friday and
unfortunately I do :( My dad is taking me to a dinner event and we've had
it in the calendar for quite a while. I have been trying to figure out if I could reconcile it time-wise but unfortunately I just can't :(
Thank you so much for the invite though. I really appreciate it and I would
have really liked to go. :) If you ever have a spare play ticket again let
me know!
Thanks again :) Have a good weekend and see you Wednesday!
Best,
[X]

I took that response not to be just a polite way of saying "no," because she specifically invited me to ask her out again. So I sent her this:

Have a great evening with your dad, then! Thanks for trying to reconcile!
[College we both attend] has no shortage of theatre that I'd like to see, so if you're not adverse, I can get us tickets for an upcoming show. I think [college theatre group] is putting on [play] soon, which could be fun. I understand that this is a busy time of year, though, so let me know.
See you Wednesday, and enjoy your weekend!

That was late Thursday morning. I've yet to hear back from her, and I know she's been on facebook (the communication method) at least once since then.

I guess my question is: has anyone been in a situation similar to this before? I'm worried that I've somehow misread the situation. Playground, do you think I should be worried?

Yeah, unless the play you mentioned is coming up very soon, your message doesn't seem to need an immediate answer and she'll probably just see you on Wednesday like she and you said. She may or may not realize you're asking her out on a date but it's not a negative answer either.

[Malarky]

Thanks playground! Update: I'm paranoid. She got back to me and said yes! Thanks for your help!

[noparlpf]

I'm at the stage where happening to see a picture of my ex only hurts once in a while instead of every time. How long does it take before it never bothers me?

[Lissou]

I'm at the stage where happening to see a picture of my ex only hurts once in a while instead of every time. How long does it take before it never bothers me?

That might never happen, but it should bother you less and less often. How long were you together, and how long have you been apart?

@Malarky, things are looking really well from what I saw. She went out of her way to make sure you knew she really wanted to go and wants to do so another time.
When I read your message back to her, I honestly had no idea you expected her to answer it. You do say "See you Wednesday" so to me it sounded like she'd see you then. She probably will tell you then when she is free, or will let you later when she is. I didn't see you state when the next play is going to be, so it could be weeks or months from now, and she might not know her schedule so early in advance.
Either, I certainly wouldn't worry. Don't expect her to answer at all and wait until Wednesday.

[Eirala]

I'm at the stage where happening to see a picture of my ex only hurts once in a while instead of every time. How long does it take before it never bothers me?

Besides the length of the relationship and how long you've been apart it also makes a difference of how intense the relationship was and how good it went.

In my case i can now, after nearly a year, look at pictures withouth instantly having to look away, feeling absolutely awful and trying to focus on something else. Most of the time it's still a bit unpleasant, but i wouldn't see a problem if it stays the way it is now.
It was a pretty awful, mentally abusive relationship over 1 year though. I would guess it doesn't take that long for "normal" relationships.

[noparlpf]

No idea what "normal" is like. Probably better.

[Heliomance]

I'm at the stage where happening to see a picture of my ex only hurts once in a while instead of every time. How long does it take before it never bothers me?

Took me 6 months to get properly over my last ex, and that relationship only lasted 3.5 months. These things take quite a while sometimes.

[Coidzor]

I'm at the stage where happening to see a picture of my ex only hurts once in a while instead of every time. How long does it take before it never bothers me?

I was with my ex-fiance for a little over 3 years. We've been apart for what, 5 now. I still experience feels on occasion when I see her show up in the facebook feeds of our limited pool of mutual friends.

It may be that you're more emotionally and mentally healthy than I am, so it's possible that you may be capable of not having any emotional reaction without repression a lot sooner than that.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Edit: nevermind.

[Pyromancer999]

So today, I met up at a mutual friend's house with a girl I hadn't seen since Calculus I. I found out she was the only person I know who can out-xkcd me. She even makes more math jokes than I do.

And she turned me down. I don't even know why.

I later said, to the mutual friend, "I feel like the Leia to her Obi-Wan. 'Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope... of getting laid."

Well, the reason why she turned you down could be manyfold. However, I suspect that one factor would be time. You haven't seen this girl since a math class some time ago, right? So, while you seem to remember her well, she may not remember you as well as you do her. So, she may have been a little weirded out since a guy she hadn't seen for a while suddenly approaches and is like, "Hey, let's make out/other stuff".

Also, you don't seem to have included how she reacted to you. You seem to like her(because of common interests like xkcd and whatnot), but she also may not have been into you as you were into her.

May or may not be the case, but that's all I can tell from what you've provided.

[Heliomance]

So today, I met up at a mutual friend's house with a girl I hadn't seen since Calculus I. I found out she was the only person I know who can out-xkcd me. She even makes more math jokes than I do.

And she turned me down. I don't even know why.

Because she is not obligated to like you. She doesn't owe you sex, or a relationship, or anything else. Your inability to understand why you might not be irresistible is worrying.

I later said, to the mutual friend, "I feel like the Leia to her Obi-Wan. 'Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope... of getting laid.'"

Yeah. This... doesn't sound like you're into her as an individual. An attitude of "I want you because you might actually sleep with me" is not a good basis to build a relationship on. Frankly, from this brief snippet, I'd say she made the right call.

[Adumbration]

I've been dating this girl for bit over a month now. I always used to get this warm and fuzzy feeling every time I saw her or talked with her, but for some reason it's been fading these past few weeks. I feel like the physical intimacy has overtaken the mental intimacy to the point I feel a bit uncomfortable about it. We try to talk - I mentioned to her I feel like we should talk more and she agreed - but it just feels so bloody awkward to force conversations, and they feel like they're not really leading anywhere.

I don't know. Is this normal? Is this a salvageable relationship? I'm really new to this stuff (despite being 22)...

[Gitman00]

I've been dating this girl for bit over a month now. I always used to get this warm and fuzzy feeling every time I saw her or talked with her, but for some reason it's been fading these past few weeks. I feel like the physical intimacy has overtaken the mental intimacy to the point I feel a bit uncomfortable about it. We try to talk - I mentioned to her I feel like we should talk more and she agreed - but it just feels so bloody awkward to force conversations, and they feel like they're not really leading anywhere.

I don't know. Is this normal? Is this a salvageable relationship? I'm really new to this stuff (despite being 22)...

Well... a month is still pretty early in the relationship. It's quite natural for the warm fuzzy feelings to fade after a bit, but they'll come back if you're right for each other. If you find that you truly don't share any interests beyond the physical, then it might be time to move on. But give it some time.

As for the conversation... it shouldn't be forced. If you want to talk, have a topic ready. If not, just let the conversation flow naturally and see where it goes. Whenever I've tried to force a conversation and I didn't have something specific in mind to talk about it usually ends up like this:

"Let's talk."
"What about?"
"I dunno. What do you wanna talk about?"
"Beats me."
*awkward silence*

It's still this way with my wife of 3 years, and I'm looking forward to 50 more. However, we're both the type of people who are perfectly fine with sitting together and not saying a word.

If you're worried about where the relationship is going, it may be time to have a talk about it. Maybe write down some open-ended questions about her (and your) goals and interests, to break the ice, and find out what you both want out of the relationship.

It also might be a good idea to go out and do some things together other than physical intimacy. I still go out on dates with my wife (or I would, if I wasn't deployed overseas ).

[Astral Avenger]

Situation in a nutshell:
I like a girl who I've been (cross country) skiing with for the past 5-6 years. Right now we are both (technically) seniors in high school, but taking all our classes through two local colleges through a state sponsored program (I go to one college, she is going to another) and are effectively freshmen at the two schools. We've been friends since we originally joined the high school team back in 7th grade. Next year, she is going to switch to the college I'm currently in, and I'm either going to stay in the college or go to UW Madison, haven't decided yet. We're both going to be gone for about two months this summer on various trips too, I'm going on a 45 day canoe trip to far northern canada, she is going on a ~40 day backpacking trip in Utah/Colorado. Of course, all that matters is that I just have to psych myself up enough to ask her out.

So, any tricks for convincing yourself that its better to just ask and (hopefully not) get rejected than to just go on wondering?

[Dr. Bath]

Situation in a nutshell:
I like a girl who I've been (cross country) skiing with for the past 5-6 years. Right now we are both (technically) seniors in high school, but taking all our classes through two local colleges through a state sponsored program (I go to one college, she is going to another) and are effectively freshmen at the two schools. We've been friends since we originally joined the high school team back in 7th grade. Next year, she is going to switch to the college I'm currently in, and I'm either going to stay in the college or go to UW Madison, haven't decided yet. We're both going to be gone for about two months this summer on various trips too, I'm going on a 45 day canoe trip to far northern canada, she is going on a ~40 day backpacking trip in Utah/Colorado. Of course, all that matters is that I just have to psych myself up enough to ask her out.

So, any tricks for convincing yourself that its better to just ask and (hopefully not) get rejected than to just go on wondering?

Well by actually asking her out the only thing you really risk is a hit to your ego, which is not really a biggie. On the other hand you stand to gain a date with a lady you seem to dig. That is a pretty good ratio of win-to-lose!

Also not doing it is in the long run likely to be a bigger ego-bruising what with the 'what ifs' and 'woulda shoulda coulda' style thoughts that can take over when you have the glasses of hindsight on.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

So, any tricks for convincing yourself that its better to just ask and (hopefully not) get rejected than to just go on wondering?

How's this: If you like her, you want the best for her. The best for her is someone who will be able to do tough things in her interest. If you ask her out, you illustrate that you are a viable option. If you don't ask, you disqualify yourself before she even gets the chance.

Not exactly an uplifting pep talk, but I've seen it motivate the formation of happy couples before.

[Thufir]

So, any tricks for convincing yourself that its better to just ask and (hopefully not) get rejected than to just go on wondering?

Well, firstly, not tricks. It's just true.
Secondly, I just keep reminding myself: Doubt is worse than rejection. Rejection only happens once, doubt lasts forever or until you risk rejection.

[inexorabletruth]

Psych yourself up?

I think you may be psyching yourself out. It's just a date, right? Two people, going out and having fun. Focus on that. All you're doing is having fun. Don't worry about the rest. Invite her to a thing you want to do. If she has fun doing it with you, then congratulations! You just went on a successful date.

I know dating can be scary. Asking a girl out can be terrifying. What I'm trying to say is, it doesn't have to be. In fact, it's way better if it isn't.

You two have a lot in common already. Pick a thing, a place, or an event you'd like to spend a couple of hours at. Then, ask her if she wants to go to that thing. You can make it as breezy as:

"Hey, some friends and I are going to the [insert band name] concert next week. Wanna come?" (just an example)

IMHO, you've already got this in the bag. You two already spend a lot of time together and she's clearly comfortable hanging out with you. The trick isn't asking her out... it's making your move before you get friend-zoned.

[Jallorn]

So here's my sitch: I want to ask a girl out that I don't know too well. We've had a couple classes together due to common interests (Theater, it's one of my majors and is probably going to be her's once she declares, though she's more of a dancer/movement person) but we haven't spoken directly to one another that much. That said, near the begining of the first class we had together I thought she might have been flirting with me a little, but I really don't trust my radar for things like that, and later interactions have been a little odd, so I don't really know how she feels about me.

Anywho, I find her to be both an attractive and interesting person who I would like to get to know better in general, but I don't really know how to go about asking her out. The only times I see her anymore are in the cafeteria, or at class, and we both have another class immediately afterwards, so there's really no time to chat, even if there weren't a bunch of our friends around. I'm also not sure if she's even single, though that doesn't really worry me too much, and I really do want to get to know her better even if she is. How should I go about this? I'm not going to do anything radical until after spring break (which is next week) so there's time to figure it out.

TLDR: Girl I want to get to know better, might want to date, don't know how to orchestrate that because there's basically never time when I can talk to her alone, need advice.

Also, suggestions on good casual first dates that don't require infrastructure beyond the college would be awesome, I go to college in a tiny little town with not much in it. Great college, but there's pretty much nothing to do in town, and I don't have a car to get to the few things outside of town that there are to do.

[Serpentine]

If there's a park, you can have a picnic. Picnics are cool.

Well, firstly, not tricks. It's just true.
Secondly, I just keep reminding myself: Doubt is worse than rejection. Rejection only happens once, doubt lasts forever or until you risk rejection.

And of course you totally always take your own advice, yeah?

The trick isn't asking her out... it's making your move before you get friend-zoned.

9.9