Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[Eldan]

(Though to be fair, part of that has to be attributed to the fact that I just don't like the way newer codizes are structured. Whoever decided that all of those fascinating stories ranging between half a page and two pages, that used to make up the majority of a codex, need to be cut out, truly deserves to live in the 41st millennium themselves. )

That was always the most fun part of the fantasy books too. Like, in one of the old Warhammer Fantasy big rulebooks, every chapter started with another page of the Epic of Sigmar, written in ballad form. Or the Skaven: their army description started with a two-page handwritten document by an Imperial scholar, listing all the evidence as to why a race of ratmen couldn't exist below the Empire.

[Cheesegear]

listing all the evidence as to why a race of ratmen couldn't exist below the Empire.

There Are No Skaven In The Empire.

The level of the lie is on par with the Imperium's attempt to deny Chaos exists. In the Old World, it's perfectly fine to know about the crazy marauders in the north who worship the old Gods, you can know about the Beastmen in the forest, but, There Are No Skaven In The Empire.

[Eldan]

There Are No Skaven In The Empire.

The level of the lie is on par with the Imperium's attempt to deny Chaos exists. In the Old World, it's perfectly fine to know about the crazy marauders in the north who worship the old Gods, you can know about the Beastmen in the forest, but, There Are No Skaven In The Empire.

To be fair, the novels and the new codex imply that at least some of that is a kind of large-scale Skaven mind magic, mixed with good old fashioned sabotage and assassination. Chaos doesn't have anything like that.

[Artanis]

Also, that would be the nice, sensible thing to do. Try to print it in a GW book, and the ink supply would probably have caught fire.

Depends on how they went about doing it. Knowing 40K, I'm sure there are plenty worse fates than being killed and then turned into armor paint

[comicshorse]

To be fair, the novels and the new codex imply that at least some of that is a kind of large-scale Skaven mind magic, mixed with good old fashioned sabotage and assassination. Chaos doesn't have anything like that.

I love Skaven. Why are there no 40K Skaven goddammit ?

[hamishspence]

I love Skaven.

Early Hrud art (3rd ed rulebook) hinted that they might be space skaven - with them being hooded and with ratlike tails.

Later, they were portrayed very differently.

[comicshorse]

Early Hrud art (3rd ed rulebook) hinted that they might be space skaven - with them being hooded and with ratlike tails.

Later, they were portrayed very differently.

Just looked them up and yes I definitely see the Skaveness

[Eldan]

Sadly, they look like this now:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/...3px-Hrud_2.jpg

[The Glyphstone]

Sadly, they look like this now:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/...3px-Hrud_2.jpg

That is incredibly stupid looking. It's not even menacing.

[Cheesegear]

I love Skaven. Why are there no 40K Skaven goddammit ?

Because their schtick in 40K wouldn't work. At best, they maybe could be considered as Just Another Mutant Gang in the underhives of various spires. At their worst, they're already outdone by Orks (you can never Catch 'em All), Tyranids (they're in the walls!) and Necrons (g-g-g...Ghosts! What do you mean you built your house on a Necron Burial Mound!?).

Or, if you really, really loved them, would you rather them be a throwaway race on a throwaway planet like the Beastmen? I just don't see the point of Skaven in 40K, especially when killing Ratmen would be second-nature to half the Imperium.

[comicshorse]

Because their schtick in 40K wouldn't work. At best, they maybe could be considered as Just Another Mutant Gang in the underhives of various spires. At their worst, they're already outdone by Orks (you can never Catch 'em All), Tyranids (they're in the walls!) and Necrons (g-g-g...Ghosts! What do you mean you built your house on a Necron Burial Mound!?).

I disagree, the Skaven have always had that mad science thing going for them. I can just see them deploying weapons that tap into the warp, hurl bolts of anti-matter and generally mess with technology that saner races wouldn't touch. Devastating armies (wether their's or their enemies) with glorious, ratty abandon

[The Glyphstone]

Necrons have a pretty solid lock on the 'super-science' thing, followed by Eldar and their warptech. Tyranids are all about sacrificing their own for short-term gain, to the point where their assault organisms lack digestive tracts. Orks bring the black-comedy angle.

Skaven just don't have anything to offer, thematically, that another race doesn't already do better. The Tyranids are probably their closest spiritual counterpart that doesn't already have an equivalent IN SPAAAAACE, but the Tyranids are actually menacing, what the Skaven could be in Fantasy if they were even remotely competent as a species.

[Cheesegear]

I disagree, the Skaven have always had that mad science thing going for them.

So...Orks, then?

[Cikomyr]

40K Skaven only is okay if we get Fantasy Tau

[comicshorse]

So...Orks, then?

I said mad not just poor

[hamishspence]

40K Skaven only is okay if we get Fantasy Tau

Aren't the Lizardmen a bit like this - obsessed with "The Greater Good" of the Warhammer Fantasy world - and willing to destroy anything that gets in the way of it?

They're divided into multiple castes, too, which are "born that way" - warriors (Saurus) artisans (skinks) rulers (Slann) etc.

There's lots of differences (no new Slann are being born, for one thing) - but they could be said to occupy a similar niche.

But then again - they could also be said to occupy the Tyranid niche - with all their "bioweapons" (Salamander breath, Razordon spines, Troglodon spit).

[GolemsVoice]

They're also isolated and not neccessarily overly agressive, focusing more on defending and holding territory. However, the Tau do conquer, and not just defend, and the lizardmen don't want converts.

[Eldan]

I said mad not just poor

I agree, really. Orcs take clan Skryre's shtick. Science that abuses the warp in terrible ways and sometimes blows up spectacularly. Plus, thanks to spores, they have endless numbers.

Tyranids take clan moulder's shtick. Giant monsters, all with a similar theme. Plus, they have endless numbers.

Really, there's not really a niche left for Skaven in 40k, said as it is.

[Cheesegear]

Really, there's not really a niche left for Skaven in 40k, sad as it is.

It's not so much as having a niche left. It's that in 40K, their niche doesn't exist at all. It's like Squats Demiurg all over again. A very industrious race that churns out weapons and stuff...That's cool. But the Imperium has Forge Worlds which churn out anything the Imperium wants on a daily basis, and there's more than one Forge World. This is why nobody talks about the Demiurg - or the Beastmen. They don't matter.

Skaven are stealthy mutants. Really? 40K needs more of those?

[Eldan]

Well, I'd say their niche does exist. It's just that, as you said, it has already been taken by a lot of other races.

Mutant humans? All over. (THough they are probably mutant rats, not mutant men). High tech? Necrons, Eldar, Tau... Dangerous tech? Orcs. Endless numbers? Tyranids, orcs. Ninja assassins? Dark Eldar, Officio Assassinorum. Living in the Empire, with no one realizing the danger is here? Genestealers, mutants again.

[Ogremindes]

Genestealer cults seem like a pretty close analogue, actually.

[comicshorse]

Loth as I am to admit on the internet that other peoples arguments have changed my mind but it does seem that Tyrannids cover what the Skaven would bring to the setting (apart from diseases, I always wondered why the Tyrannids didn't use germ warfare more)

[Wraith]

Tyranids do use micro-organisms as part of the final stages of consuming a planet, literally absorbing even the bacterial life therein with their own Xenos equivalents.

Actual "diseases", however, fall under the domain of Nurgle. Part of the reason that the Imperium doesn't always commit Exterminatus upon Daemon Worlds is because some methods of Exterminatus involve virus bombing, and the last thing that they want to do, is to "give the Daemons ideas".

How "micro-organisms", "bacteria" and "diseases" differ in the 40k universe, unlike in the Real World, I couldn't hope to tell you.
Presumably it's a matter of which Higher Power is in control - all diseases/virus/normal bacteria are agents of Nurgle, whereas Tyranid bacteria is directly and consciously controlled by the Hive Mind, perhaps.

[Eldan]

Loth as I am to attempt on the internet that other peoples arguments have changed my mind but it does seem that Tyrannids cover what the Skaven would bring to the setting (apart from diseases, I always wondered why the Tyrannids didn't use germ warfare more)

For me, the crazy, self-destructive tech is the most fun part of playing Skaven. I have remodelled half my army to be Skryre, from the smoke-generator wielding, steam-powered assassination-cyborgs, to the three story tall, four-armed, steam-powered hellpit battlemech. Clan Moulder, really, is the least interesting to me. So, I'd rather go for orcs than nids, if I wanted to model Skaven.

Not that I don't like Nids. I have a nid army, now, though I've rebuilt most of them to have between eight and twenty limbs, instead of the customary six.

[comicshorse]

Tyranids do use micro-organisms as part of the final stages of consuming a planet, literally absorbing even the bacterial life therein with their own Xenos equivalents.

Actual "diseases", however, fall under the domain of Nurgle. Part of the reason that the Imperium doesn't always commit Exterminatus upon Daemon Worlds is because some methods of Exterminatus involve virus bombing, and the last thing that they want to do, is to "give the Daemons ideas".

How "micro-organisms", "bacteria" and "diseases" differ in the 40k universe, unlike in the Real World, I couldn't hope to tell you.
Presumably it's a matter of which Higher Power is in control - all diseases/virus/normal bacteria are agents of Nurgle, whereas Tyranid bacteria is directly and consciously controlled by the Hive Mind, perhaps.

Just because Nurgle will gain power from you using virus's doesn't mean you can't use them. Certainly the Imperium does ( as you pointed out) and the WHFRP Skaven have Clan Petilens who specialize in disease despite Nurgle being part of the setting

[BRC]

Just because Nurgle will gain power from you using virus's doesn't mean you can't use them. Certainly the Imperium does ( as you pointed out) and the WHFRP Skaven have Clan Petilens who specialize in disease despite Nurgle being part of the setting

I mean, Khorne gains power from combat, and that dosn't stop the Imperium from sending in troops to brutally crack down on uprisings.

[Grim Portent]

whereas Tyranid bacteria is directly and consciously controlled by the Hive Mind, perhaps.

Tyranid bacteria would not be bacteria, they would be mono-cellular eukaryotic cells capable of self propulsion. They would ideally be highly toxic and capable of phagocytosis, the former to kill larger prey life forms they encounter, the latter to digest microscopic food and prey.

The spores used to tyrannoform plant life would also likely be microscopic and highly toxic, but would instead secrete a vast number of various plant and fungal hormones.

/end science rant.

[Brother Oni]

Tyranid bacteria would not be bacteria, they would be mono-cellular eukaryotic cells capable of self propulsion. They would ideally be highly toxic and capable of phagocytosis, the former to kill larger prey life forms they encounter, the latter to digest microscopic food and prey.

That's a really fancy way of saying 'Omnomnomnom'.

[The Glyphstone]

Tyranid bacteria would not be bacteria, they would be mono-cellular eukaryotic cells capable of self propulsion. They would ideally be highly toxic and capable of phagocytosis, the former to kill larger prey life forms they encounter, the latter to digest microscopic food and prey.

The spores used to tyrannoform plant life would also likely be microscopic and highly toxic, but would instead secrete a vast number of various plant and fungal hormones.

/end science rant.

In 40K, even the microbiology is grimdark.

[Grim Portent]

In 40K, even the microbiology is grimdark.

Microbiology is always grimdark.