Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Coidzor]

So, I have no idea if this is something that people can help me with. Feel free to see this as a rant more than a cry for help.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

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So I have a Girlfriend now. It's been going for few months, so nothing longterm and very much in it's early stages. We're about 2 hours train-drive apart from each other and try to visit about twice a month for up to three days (A weekend, in most cases). Which has been working fine so far.

Also, I want to point out that I'm absolutely happy with her. So what I'm gonna write below is just a minor thing that has been bugging me, and it's possible that it just comes from me being inexperienced when it comes to relationsships.

So, my fair lady is worries. A lot. And about all kinds of things. I'm a very laid back guy, can be lazy and I generally have a "It doesnt matter what other people think"-attitude. She's the exact opposite. She wonders and frets about what other people might think about her, and especially, us. This kind of reached it's peak when I introduced her into my friendcircle. She's playing The Dark Eye along with us over Skype.

That round has been a source of worries for her as well. The other day she wrote "Hi" in the Skype-Conversation, and nobody wrote anything back (Which in Skype can happen. Sometimes people are busy, and some of my friends plain and simply dont greet over skype, they just talk. Heck, I frequently dont greet myself. If I did that in every chatroom with everyone I know, I'd be on Skype for hours each day.). She took that as "proof" that nobody in the conversation liked her, she was worried the only reason people took her up, was because she was my girlfriend.

Now, she does stuff like that a lot. And that itself wouldnt be an issue, it's the fact that no matter how hard I try to calm her down, it doesnt help. I explained to her that the guys just dont greet over skype, and they wouldnt take her in if they didnt like her. But it didnt help. In the end, we talked about that for almost 30 minutes, with me coming close to melting down in front of the PC. This is just an example, it doesnt happen all the time, but maybe once a week.

The thing is, as explained above, in this regard she's the polar opposite to me. I get tired very quickly when talking about this stuff, but she obviously actually worries about it, so I dont want to just go "Whatever" and make her feel like I dont care about her. For me, the conversation should reach some kind of conclusion after "Dont worry hones, I know the guys and they dont do stuff like that.". Mainly because I dont know what more I can offer.

Does she not have friends of her own?

Anyway, it sounds like if she's really worrying that much and debilitating herself with anxiety like that... Well, I'm not exactly sure how to go about it, but it seems like she'd be well-served by speaking to a professional about that. They've made a bit of progress with anti-anxiety medication and counseling, after all.

But, one thing to keep in mind is that she's obviously not looking for you to solve this, especially if this keeps coming up. So I'd recommend sympathizing with her and commiserating so she has her chance to vent, reassuring her of your affections for her, which arethe actual important thing here, not whether your friends that you introduced her to are now her best friends. Maybe try to help her find some ways to vent all of the emotional pressure that builds up within her so that it doesn't lead to dumping on you and burning you out, necessarily. Though if she's trying to become best friends with all of your friends so that your friends circles overlap fully, that's something you'll need to address because that's rather worrisome.

[Oneris]

When your significant other asks "Why do you love me?", is there generally expected to be a concrete answer?

[Crow]

When your significant other asks "Why do you love me?", is there generally expected to be a concrete answer?

I just give the cop-out response:

"If I could pick out exactly what it was that made me love you, I don't think it would really be love."

[Coidzor]

When your significant other asks "Why do you love me?", is there generally expected to be a concrete answer?

Well, no, that'd be sorta awkward and mechanical to give as a reply, after all. Also, decidedly unromantic.

It'd be pretty strange for someone to expect a concrete answer when asking that sort of question anyway. Mostly it's platitudes and various qualities that one likes about someone or that caused them to first be noticed and reassurance about being and feeling loved and all that rot.

'Course, not being able to come up with any answer is a bad thing all its own...

[dehro]

It's almost as bad as"does this dress make me look fat?"
You could tell her why you like and what you like about her, and tell her it's the closest answer to why you love her she's ever going to get but isn't the actual answe.

[Anarion]

When your significant other asks "Why do you love me?", is there generally expected to be a concrete answer?

If you're a poet, it's not a bad time to wax loquacious about the person's charm and beauty and how they're the greatest things in the world.

[Knaight]

When your significant other asks "Why do you love me?", is there generally expected to be a concrete answer?

Not really. With that said, in my experience (on both sides of similar questions) that phrase is generally an indication of that person's jerkbrain* acting up, and that the best thing to do there is some mix of providing comfort and waiting it out.

*For those unfamiliar with the term, it's a colloquial phrase given to entire sets of counterproductive to self destructive inaccurate mental patterns.

[Serpentine]

Not really. With that said, in my experience (on both sides of similar questions) that phrase is generally an indication of that person's jerkbrain* acting up, and that the best thing to do there is some mix of providing comfort and waiting it out.

*For those unfamiliar with the term, it's a colloquial phrase given to entire sets of counterproductive to self destructive inaccurate mental patterns.

That fits my mental image of how the question might typically come to be asked. And in that case, I at least tend to find specific concrete examples most believable, although wrapping it up in the general is a nice addition.
Something you might like to consider is keeping in mind the question even when it hasn't been directly asked. If something happens that you particularly adore or that reminds you why you love her (or him, for the general reader), tell them - whether it's the way the sun strikes their hair, or (real example) the way they can blunder awkwardly into an uncomfortable situation then blunder straight back out again.

[Grytorm]

Oh hello again. I broached the topic of dating to a friend of mine. She went into a minor panic said she felt awkward. Said something else. Said she generally was pretty busy. I told her I was asking because she was fun to spend time with and I was lonely. She hasn't given a clear response, and when I asked if we should talk later she said maybe. So, maybe?

[Crow]

Doesn't sound good bro.

[Coidzor]

Oh hello again. I broached the topic of dating to a friend of mine. She went into a minor panic said she felt awkward. Said something else. Said she generally was pretty busy. I told her I was asking because she was fun to spend time with and I was lonely. She hasn't given a clear response, and when I asked if we should talk later she said maybe. So, maybe?

Ech. Minor panic? Bad sign. Awkward feeling? Bad freaking sign. Saying something that you can't recall right now? Probably a bad sign. Saying she's too busy to date? Pretty bad sign.

Saying you're lonely as part of your reason for wanting to date her? That's a major don't on your part.

I'd say the most likely thing is that she feels too awkward telling you no straight out as some women tend to have difficulty with that for a variety of reasons that people get mad at me for giving even a partial list of.

Sorry, mate.

[Dazhbug]

Whelp, here's as good a place to vent as anywhere. And it's less "venting" so much as "confusion":

1) Find interesting person on OKC(upid); browse through the profile, this person seems interesting!
2) "Like" Person, Message Person
3) Person pops up as visiting my profile
4) Person "Likes" Me
5) Never hear from Person again

I... this... it seriously boggles my mind, it does. Yes, I understand the woes and failings of sites like OKC, but really... blargh. Argh! Grrr. And other noises of frustration and grumpitude!

Right, I feel a bit better now.

[RoyVG]

Oh hello again. I broached the topic of dating to a friend of mine. She went into a minor panic said she felt awkward. Said something else. Said she generally was pretty busy. I told her I was asking because she was fun to spend time with and I was lonely. She hasn't given a clear response, and when I asked if we should talk later she said maybe. So, maybe?

Those are not really good signs. I've been in that situation and when she tries to avoid the conversation, it generally means she is not interested in a relationship one reason or another. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to be your friend, always keep that in mind, but she likely is not ready or not interested in an actual relationship. It will be hard, but the only advise i can give you is to try and forget about it. Simply the fact she tries to avoid the conversation and is not givng a clear answer should immediately ring a bell. 'Maybe' is not an answer, 'Yes' and 'No' are. Avoid talking about it at least for now, otherwise you'll will only make things worse, trust me on that.

Whelp, here's as good a place to vent as anywhere. And it's less "venting" so much as "confusion":

1) Find interesting person on OKC(upid); browse through the profile, this person seems interesting!
2) "Like" Person, Message Person
3) Person pops up as visiting my profile
4) Person "Likes" Me
5) Never hear from Person again

I... this... it seriously boggles my mind, it does. Yes, I understand the woes and failings of sites like OKC, but really... blargh. Argh! Grrr. And other noises of frustration and grumpitude!

Right, I feel a bit better now.

I went one step further once and we even exchanged Skype information and chatted twice. After that I tried to start another conversation but she never answered. We stopped talking after that. Simply said, it happens, it means both of you are not interested enough in each other to try and make something work. Don't hate yourself for it, it happens a lot on sites like that.


This may be a d**k move to mention right below your comment but I need to tell this for the rest of my story. I actually had the opposite happen to me as well. I was having a conversation over email with someone that I thought was super interesting, but after some time, she suddenly stopped responding. I emailed her after a couple of days to see if she wanted to continue chatting but didn't get a respond for a another few days. I was almost giving up on her when she suddenly responded back and we immediately exchanged Skype information. She apparently was very busy with her study and she apologized for it. We continued over Skype and contact each other at least twice a week now.

To continue this story, last weekend I, very carefully, confessed my feelings for her and wanted to spend more time with her. I literally send her a large letter telling her everything that came to mind. I told her I really enjoyed our conversations and wanting to continue them. She quickly responded that she wanted to start a voice-chat, something we haven't done until that point. Nervous as I was (as was she) I accepted. She wanted it because it would be more direct and easier to express her feelings after reading it. She was very happy with the gesture, but said she was very uncertain and had a lot of problems trusting people with regards to a relationship. She was out of a relationship with someone for 2 years now but that left her with such a bad experience that she started doubting herself. It was last week apparently that she started to figure this out.

I found the situation quite ironic (I even told her), because the same story was told to me the first time I confessed my feelings for a different girl, with only a couple of minor differences. The main difference is that this girl was eager to continue the friendship we had built up over the last months and expand upon it. She didn't want to give it up and she even said she would hunt me down if I wanted to end it. Yesterday we had our first video-chat and it was great and we had a lot of fun seeing each other for the first time.

While technically I was rejected again, I did not feel so bad about it. The thing is that I now feel the urge to help her with her problem. People that have read my previous post a couple of pages back will see that I tried to do this with the previous girl as well, but that backfired in an extremely bad way. I want to offer her my help, and I want to bring this up, but I feel there is no good way to do so. Does anyone have any advice, should I mention it to her or not, or should I be more passive in my approach? Or should I just leave it altogether?

[Xapi]

While technically I was rejected again, I did not feel so bad about it. The thing is that I now feel the urge to help her with her problem. People that have read my previous post a couple of pages back will see that I tried to do this with the previous girl as well, but that backfired in an extremely bad way. I want to offer her my help, and I want to bring this up, but I feel there is no good way to do so. Does anyone have any advice, should I mention it to her or not, or should I be more passive in my approach? Or should I just leave it altogether?

I'd say you should slow things down, talk to her in a friendly manner, and only comment on her general romantic situation if she brings it up first.

She seems to need room to think, and there's two ways out of that: with time, or by someone who rocks your world yanking you out of it. Sadly, it is hard to rock someone's world over text based or even video based conversation.

So, your best bet is to place this relationship (in the general sense) in the "background", talking to her when you can, being friendly, while pursuing other interests. Your conversations will, by their own development, take you to either helping her out, getting romantically involved, or both, but you pressing the matter is not going to help IMO.

[Serpentine]

Oh hello again. I broached the topic of dating to a friend of mine. She went into a minor panic said she felt awkward. Said something else. Said she generally was pretty busy. I told her I was asking because she was fun to spend time with and I was lonely. She hasn't given a clear response, and when I asked if we should talk later she said maybe. So, maybe?

Almost definitely a no, unless she herself conclusively indicates otherwis, which in I'm afraid seems unlikely.Now you need to go into damage control mode, which includes taking it as a no. Back off, work out your feelings about the situation and look after yourself but be aware she may be feeling very awkward, and maybe even guilty and worried about how you'll react. If you want to retain your friendship, you need to tread very carefully now, especially after a reaction like that.
[Qemaazhbug;18868517]Whelp, here's as good a place to vent as anywhere. And it's less "venting" so much as "confusion":

1) Find interesting person on OKC(upid); browse through the profile, this person seems interesting!
2) "Like" Person, Message Person
3) Person pops up as visiting my profile
4) Person "Likes" Me
5) Never hear from Person again

I... this... it seriously boggles my mind, it does. Yes, I understand the woes and failings of sites like OKC, but really... blargh. Argh! Grrr. And other noises of frustration and grumpitude!

Right, I feel a bit better now.[/QUOTE]

There's innumerable reasons why that might have happened. I've probably done that myself a number of times, for any number of reasons - too tired, too distracted, too shy, can't think of anything, just didn't feel like it...
My suggestion is to just go ahead and start a conversation with her.
Oh, derp, you already did. Well, honestly, that still pretty much applies. If they "liked" you after you messaged them, if it's been a while - like, days or a week or two, not hours (and especially not *minutes*, OKC twit who isn't here... Probably), you MIGHT be able to send a gentle reminder, IF you're careful. The trick is to eliminate any hint of entitlement - the fact is, she doesn't owe you her conversation - and if it helps assume she has a very pressing reason why she didn't respond that is none of your business. Ideally, look for a way to add to your previous message, like you totes just thought of it, or if there's some recent event that ties into their profile (e.g. If they say on the profile that they watch American Horror Story, ask if they heard about the guy who just got hit by a car and died).

[RoyVG]

I'd say you should slow things down, talk to her in a friendly manner, and only comment on her general romantic situation if she brings it up first.

She seems to need room to think, and there's two ways out of that: with time, or by someone who rocks your world yanking you out of it. Sadly, it is hard to rock someone's world over text based or even video based conversation.

So, your best bet is to place this relationship (in the general sense) in the "background", talking to her when you can, being friendly, while pursuing other interests. Your conversations will, by their own development, take you to either helping her out, getting romantically involved, or both, but you pressing the matter is not going to help IMO.

Thanks, I'll certainly keep it in mind. Especially these first few days or even weeks I wasn't planning to ask about it anyway, it would be too soon. She already made a remark that she didn't want to drag people into this very personal problem of hers. While I was thinking it when she said, I never actually said I wouldn't have minded to be dragged along for the ride, as long as it will help her. I still want to make it clear to her that I'm always ready to talk about it if she needs to.

[Knaight]

That fits my mental image of how the question might typically come to be asked. And in that case, I at least tend to find specific concrete examples most believable, although wrapping it up in the general is a nice addition.

That's generally my approach. There's a reason I identified this as jerkbrain activity, and it's at least partially because it's the sort of tactic mine liked trying. It didn't get to the vocalization stage, but it did successfully convince normalbrain that nobody would ever take an interest in me and as such anything I was interpreting as signs of interest (which ended up including some extremely overt stuff that I was later explicitly told was overt signs of interest) I was misinterpreting, and that instead they were some other thing, with whatever rationalization it took to make that happen. Granted, I have a particularly hostile jerkbrain which has made an assassination attempt on me, but the point stands.

That particular question? That really looks like the sort of thing that tends to come up immediately after a big insecurity spike, whether it's of the "you have no worth, this person is dating you out of pity" variety or the "maybe you're just a fraud who conned them into liking you" variety, or one of the other fun jerkbrain weapons.

[Coidzor]

I found the situation quite ironic (I even told her), because the same story was told to me the first time I confessed my feelings for a different girl, with only a couple of minor differences. The main difference is that this girl was eager to continue the friendship we had built up over the last months and expand upon it. She didn't want to give it up and she even said she would hunt me down if I wanted to end it. Yesterday we had our first video-chat and it was great and we had a lot of fun seeing each other for the first time.

While technically I was rejected again, I did not feel so bad about it. The thing is that I now feel the urge to help her with her problem. People that have read my previous post a couple of pages back will see that I tried to do this with the previous girl as well, but that backfired in an extremely bad way. I want to offer her my help, and I want to bring this up, but I feel there is no good way to do so. Does anyone have any advice, should I mention it to her or not, or should I be more passive in my approach? Or should I just leave it altogether?

It's hard to say with people who shouldn't be on OKC with dating as one of their interests in the first place because they know they're not ready to date right now. But, it seems you've gotten a definitive no or at least a definitive no, not for the indefinite future.

So it seems like your main course of action is to either disentangle yourself from her(which seems undesirable to you at present) or to be as much of a friend as she is comfortable with letting you be for now and then seeing how things develop, if you gain enough trust from her to play therapist and you want to play therapist, then, ok, that might happen, but don't try to force it.

Especially don't try to force it as part of a stratagem to land yourself in relationship territory with her.

Now, you may be able to ask her about what the issue is at some point, just so you don't make any missteps by dancing around in the dark around the elephant in the room, or at least ask her if she's up for a conversation about weightier things and then if she says yes delve into that. Definitely no fun to play a game of Mao in an interpersonal relationship, though, even if it is just as internet penpals.

[dnasrepma]

So, I've done part of the "getting out" correctly, in that I've made no romantic overtures toward Her. Where I've failed is that I continue to hang out with Her on a near-daily basis. Even before the romance, She made me feel joy, which is a bit of a big deal to me considering I've struggled with depression for years. The downside is that this joy opens up the door to other emotions that I haven't been fully feeling through the numbing haze of depression, like sadness and anger. Overall, a net positive - it's better to feel than not to feel. She has had Her own struggles with depression, and is excellent at picking up on my moods and redirecting my self-destructive and self-loathing thought patterns. And to be honest, I've done the same to her. We do love each other, put not sexually anymore - it's more of a "If I can love this screwed-up mess of madness, maybe someday I can love myself." Philia and Agape without Eros, if you're familiar with the Greek's 4 Loves.

Taking a step back, I would say you guys were right in the "don't pursue her romantically" advice. I've been the intermediary between Her and Him in two instances where things just exploded between them. Each time I restored communication between them, when one instance ended with Him screaming that He hated Her directly into Her ears, and another had Her claiming She wouldn't piss on Him if He were on fire, and He should not come around ever again. I do care about both of them and their happiness, and so I calmed both parties and their relationship continues.

So, yeah, She's still with Him, but with a twist. Her ex-fiance is back in the picture, and She managed to get Her boyfriend and Her ex-fiance to unbend their jealousy enough that She's sleeping with both of them, sharing Her bed with the boyfriend one night and the ex-fiance the next. Both of them are aware of this, and cooperating with Her wishes for now, if not exactly happy with the situation. I can see this blowing up quite badly, considering both of Her boytoys would like to marry Her someday.

She's a good friend. She can also be a nightmarish lunatic to her partner(s).

[Dazhbug]

There's innumerable reasons why that might have happened. I've probably done that myself a number of times, for any number of reasons - too tired, too distracted, too shy, can't think of anything, just didn't feel like it...

My suggestion is to just go ahead and start a conversation with her.

Oh, derp, you already did. Well, honestly, that still pretty much applies. If they "liked" you after you messaged them, if it's been a while - like, days or a week or two, not hours (and especially not *minutes*, OKC twit who isn't here... Probably), you MIGHT be able to send a gentle reminder, IF you're careful. The trick is to eliminate any hint of entitlement - the fact is, she doesn't owe you her conversation - and if it helps assume she has a very pressing reason why she didn't respond that is none of your business. Ideally, look for a way to add to your previous message, like you totes just thought of it, or if there's some recent event that ties into their profile (e.g. If they say on the profile that they watch American Horror Story, ask if they heard about the guy who just got hit by a car and died).

Yarr, I try to assume that they've just put it off a bit (goodness knows I've done the same, time to time), or there's some external reason for things. It's a philosophy I try to apply on a broad basis, really; humans are hard-wired to assume objects outside ourself (including other people) are permanent fixtures: that guy is angry because he's just an angry sort of jerk, she's always depressed, etc. etc. I always try to work out a narrative for other people, e.g. sure he cut me off in traffic, but he's not really a jerk, he just had a super-rough day and didn't see me; she didn't tell me about the event until last minute because she was busy organizing things and just lost track. At the very least it keeps my blood pressure down! And more often than not, things prove to be one-offs rather than fixtures of personality.

Honestly, I just needed to vent a bit; using OKC as a rational, intelligent guy can be kinda frustrating, because I very much know and understand that all the ladies on the site are getting bombarded with noise and it's hard to cut through that. On the flipside... it's hard to cut through, and gets frustrating sometimes. My frustration gets directed at all the noise-makers, generally. Well, my rational frustration, anyway.

[Crow]

So, I've done part of the "getting out" correctly, in that I've made no romantic overtures toward Her. Where I've failed is that I continue to hang out with Her on a near-daily basis. Even before the romance, She made me feel joy, which is a bit of a big deal to me considering I've struggled with depression for years. The downside is that this joy opens up the door to other emotions that I haven't been fully feeling through the numbing haze of depression, like sadness and anger. Overall, a net positive - it's better to feel than not to feel. She has had Her own struggles with depression, and is excellent at picking up on my moods and redirecting my self-destructive and self-loathing thought patterns. And to be honest, I've done the same to her. We do love each other, put not sexually anymore - it's more of a "If I can love this screwed-up mess of madness, maybe someday I can love myself." Philia and Agape without Eros, if you're familiar with the Greek's 4 Loves.

Taking a step back, I would say you guys were right in the "don't pursue her romantically" advice. I've been the intermediary between Her and Him in two instances where things just exploded between them. Each time I restored communication between them, when one instance ended with Him screaming that He hated Her directly into Her ears, and another had Her claiming She wouldn't piss on Him if He were on fire, and He should not come around ever again. I do care about both of them and their happiness, and so I calmed both parties and their relationship continues.

So, yeah, She's still with Him, but with a twist. Her ex-fiance is back in the picture, and She managed to get Her boyfriend and Her ex-fiance to unbend their jealousy enough that She's sleeping with both of them, sharing Her bed with the boyfriend one night and the ex-fiance the next. Both of them are aware of this, and cooperating with Her wishes for now, if not exactly happy with the situation. I can see this blowing up quite badly, considering both of Her boytoys would like to marry Her someday.

She's a good friend. She can also be a nightmarish lunatic to her partner(s).

Holy cow. These just sound like people I would never want to be around. I'm just curious, so if you don't mind my asking; how does being close to a situation like this help you? I could see it for those "feed on drama" personalities, but I can't see how this helps with something like depression.

[Coidzor]

We do love each other, put not sexually anymore - it's more of a "If I can love this screwed-up mess of madness, maybe someday I can love myself." Philia and Agape without Eros, if you're familiar with the Greek's 4 Loves.

I've got some bad news for you, then.

Taking a step back, I would say you guys were right in the "don't pursue her romantically" advice. I've been the intermediary between Her and Him in two instances where things just exploded between them. Each time I restored communication between them, when one instance ended with Him screaming that He hated Her directly into Her ears, and another had Her claiming She wouldn't piss on Him if He were on fire, and He should not come around ever again. I do care about both of them and their happiness, and so I calmed both parties and their relationship continues.

Enabling abusive relationships, even ones that are mutually abusive and dysfunctional, is probably not the best of feathers for one's cap, however.

So, yeah, She's still with Him, but with a twist. Her ex-fiance is back in the picture, and She managed to get Her boyfriend and Her ex-fiance to unbend their jealousy enough that She's sleeping with both of them, sharing Her bed with the boyfriend one night and the ex-fiance the next. Both of them are aware of this, and cooperating with Her wishes for now, if not exactly happy with the situation.

Yeah, that's a nasty bit of foolishness that can't end well.

I can see this blowing up quite badly, considering both of Her boytoys would like to marry Her someday.

The answer to fools and their inevitable ugly fates is to not be anywhere near them when they finally explode, not to enable them to make an even larger explosion that will take you out with them from your position on the sidelines.

She's a good friend. She can also be a nightmarish lunatic to her partner(s).

Honestly if she views people as things to be manipulated to please her, then it's more likely you're being blinded to her shortcomings as a friend then that she is, in fact, a good friend.

Holy cow. These just sound like people I would never want to be around. I'm just curious, so if you don't mind my asking; how does being close to a situation like this help you? I could see it for those "feed on drama" personalities, but I can't see how this helps with something like depression.

Well, I can't speak to the specific why in this case, but... at my worst numbness I could still rely upon feeling something if I got worked into a fine lather with anger at cruelty, incompetence, injustice, or raw stupidity.

It's part of why I was at my most insufferable when I was closest to actually killing myself, because hating and being angry at others was easier than being left alone and feeling either nothing or the urge to end feeling like nothing and instead be nothing.

[dehro]

So, I've done part of the "getting out" correctly, in that I've made no romantic overtures toward Her. Where I've failed is that I continue to hang out with Her on a near-daily basis. Even before the romance, She made me feel joy, which is a bit of a big deal to me considering I've struggled with depression for years. The downside is that this joy opens up the door to other emotions that I haven't been fully feeling through the numbing haze of depression, like sadness and anger. Overall, a net positive - it's better to feel than not to feel. She has had Her own struggles with depression, and is excellent at picking up on my moods and redirecting my self-destructive and self-loathing thought patterns. And to be honest, I've done the same to her. We do love each other, put not sexually anymore - it's more of a "If I can love this screwed-up mess of madness, maybe someday I can love myself." Philia and Agape without Eros, if you're familiar with the Greek's 4 Loves.

Taking a step back, I would say you guys were right in the "don't pursue her romantically" advice. I've been the intermediary between Her and Him in two instances where things just exploded between them. Each time I restored communication between them, when one instance ended with Him screaming that He hated Her directly into Her ears, and another had Her claiming She wouldn't piss on Him if He were on fire, and He should not come around ever again. I do care about both of them and their happiness, and so I calmed both parties and their relationship continues.

So, yeah, She's still with Him, but with a twist. Her ex-fiance is back in the picture, and She managed to get Her boyfriend and Her ex-fiance to unbend their jealousy enough that She's sleeping with both of them, sharing Her bed with the boyfriend one night and the ex-fiance the next. Both of them are aware of this, and cooperating with Her wishes for now, if not exactly happy with the situation. I can see this blowing up quite badly, considering both of Her boytoys would like to marry Her someday.

She's a good friend. She can also be a nightmarish lunatic to her partner(s).

I'm probably going to come over a bit strong but... This Sounds like the plot for a bad episode of Jerry Springer.
You have to weigh up whatever benefit you're getting from being close to this ticking bomb against the fallout that will inevitably occur when said bomb goes off.

[RoyVG]

It's hard to say with people who shouldn't be on OKC with dating as one of their interests in the first place because they know they're not ready to date right now. But, it seems you've gotten a definitive no or at least a definitive no, not for the indefinite future.

So it seems like your main course of action is to either disentangle yourself from her(which seems undesirable to you at present) or to be as much of a friend as she is comfortable with letting you be for now and then seeing how things develop, if you gain enough trust from her to play therapist and you want to play therapist, then, ok, that might happen, but don't try to force it.

Especially don't try to force it as part of a stratagem to land yourself in relationship territory with her.

Now, you may be able to ask her about what the issue is at some point, just so you don't make any missteps by dancing around in the dark around the elephant in the room, or at least ask her if she's up for a conversation about weightier things and then if she says yes delve into that. Definitely no fun to play a game of Mao in an interpersonal relationship, though, even if it is just as internet penpals.

I'm not entirely sure if it's a 'definitive No', or a 'No for indefinite time, please try again later', I get the feeling it's the latter because she doesn't want to give up this friendship, no matter the cost, but for my own sanity I'll go with the former for now, until she proves me otherwise. I'm not going to distance myself from her, this friendship is as much of a joy to me as it is for her. I already said to her that for a definitive 'I am in love with you' from my part, I would have to meet her in person, it's too soon to give that conclusion just yet.

Thanks at least for your opinion. I'll try and just be a good friend to her as much as I can be. I'll try to approach the topic at some point in time, but I expect not within the next couple of weeks or maybe even months. Maybe I'll try and bring it up once we meet up in the future. (Not an 'if we meet up', she'll make damn sure we do. Also I never brought up that she lives in the UK, while I'm from the Netherlands)

[Chen]

I'm not entirely sure if it's a 'definitive No', or a 'No for indefinite time, please try again later', I get the feeling it's the latter because she doesn't want to give up this friendship, no matter the cost, but for my own sanity I'll go with the former for now, until she proves me otherwise. I'm not going to distance myself from her, this friendship is as much of a joy to me as it is for her. I already said to her that for a definitive 'I am in love with you' from my part, I would have to meet her in person, it's too soon to give that conclusion just yet.

Thanks at least for your opinion. I'll try and just be a good friend to her as much as I can be. I'll try to approach the topic at some point in time, but I expect not within the next couple of weeks or maybe even months. Maybe I'll try and bring it up once we meet up in the future. (Not an 'if we meet up', she'll make damn sure we do. Also I never brought up that she lives in the UK, while I'm from the Netherlands)

Your paragraphs are pretty contradictory. First says you're going to treat it as a definitive no, and then the second says you'll approach the topic again at some point. Treat it as a definitive "no" and either continue being platonic friends or not. Don't try and deceive yourself. If the relationship is what you really want out of it, that's how you're going to treat the friendship and that can be quite unhealthy.

[Icewraith]

It's almost as bad as"does this dress make me look fat?"
You could tell her why you like and what you like about her, and tell her it's the closest answer to why you love her she's ever going to get but isn't the actual answe.

You handle "does this dress make me look fat" in the context of a preexisting romantic relationship by showing, not telling. It's very unlikely that she's actually not sure she looks good in that dress, she's been dressing herself for years and probably knows her good and bad points. What's far more likely is she doesn't feel attractive for whatever reason, and this is your opportunity to reassure her that you do, in fact, find her attractive.

So you can either try and evaluate how she looks according to your best judgement and probably tick her off by accident, or you can claim you need a baseline for comparison, ask her to take the dress off, and then proceed to makeout/sexytime. Show, don't tell. If she asks you again or insists on an answer, same game plan only leave the dress on.

@dnasrepma:
GTFO. Bail. Not only is that girl bad news, but you being around her dramatically reduces the odds of you being able to have feelings for anyone more stable who might happen to come along and it is highly likely she'll try to sabotage any other relationships you do manage to have. Run away.

Oh, and if you're not getting that depression treated, treat it. If you ARE getting it treated, inform your doctor that things aren't working as well as they could be, and it might either be time to increase firepower on what you're currently doing or evaluate a different tactic.

[RoyVG]

Your paragraphs are pretty contradictory. First says you're going to treat it as a definitive no, and then the second says you'll approach the topic again at some point. Treat it as a definitive "no" and either continue being platonic friends or not. Don't try and deceive yourself. If the relationship is what you really want out of it, that's how you're going to treat the friendship and that can be quite unhealthy.

You are... right.... I won't deny that the statements contradict each other. I also won't deny that a relationship with her is certainly a goal, but seeing it as the only goal would mean I would cut off my connections with her now because there is no way it will happen. I've already experienced what a 'friendship purely for a relationship' can bring, and I'm still experiencing the backlash from that every day. It may seem strange to 'go after' someone else in such quick succession, but I have learned, at least a bit, from my mistakes and approach it from the other standpoint, the one where it's not going to happen. So yeah, my approach and what my heart wants contradict each other. If this puts me in a really bad spot emotionally, I'm going to discuss this with her. Whatever comes out of that conversation, I will abide by that.

[Seto]

RoyVG : (I've only read your last two or three posts so I may have missed some context). In any case, do take it as a definitive no. Then, you have three possibilities :

1) Get away. Avoid her and every contact with her for at least as long as it takes for you to move on, and then maybe if you both still want it you can be friends again, in a less ambiguous, more peaceful way. Even if she wants to pursue the friendship, she should understand that it puts your feelings and your happiness in jeopardy, and she should be able to make this sacrifice for you. You're entitled to demand that from her. Now, you certainly don't want to do that, because you'd rather be close to her no matter what and you're ready to settle for a friendship. I understand : to stop seeing her is the most painful route in the short run, and the fact that it's the most reasonable route still doesn't make you want to follow it since your heart's not in it. But you really should consider it. It's insufferable at first and it progressively gets better. And if you do make it and start over a friendship with her again, I guarantee you the relationship will be healthier and more fulfilling for it.

2) Stay friends and forget all hope. This is basically the "get away" option, but without actually getting away and taking time to heal. I've ended up doing that (after two years of option 3) and man, it's hardcore. I really do not recommend it. Because hope doesn't go away easily, it's something you have to kill slowly, and the process is not pleasant. The more emotional investment in her you already have put, the longer it takes. You might think that seeing her everyday and being best friends makes up for that, but it's a mistake, because if you're earnest in your effort to move on, you shouldn't allow yourself to enjoy her presence beyond that of a good friend (and you should beat yourself up over doing so), and the line is blurry. Basically, if you go that way, you have to constantly tell apart what is and what is not susceptible of making your feelings grow. Although the yearning for physical intimacy is painful, it's not a problem because it's pretty clear-cut what you can and cannot do. It's the emotional intimacy that gets you. While your heart yearns for it and for the sweetness of being close to the person you love, you have to restrain yourself (because she isn't in your brain and she's not gonna do it for you) and just be friends, but not best friends or even that close a friend, because that's a slippery slope. I believe I read something about you wanting to help her with a problem : don't. That would be the way to badness. You certainly want to help her or protect her, and maybe you'd be able to, but letting go of that is a crucial step if you want to move on. Accept that, while you may be important to her, you're not necessary and someone else can fill that particular role.
In short, this route is longer and harder than 1), the results are much less guaranteed, and seeing her everyday doesn't even make up for it because you have to be on your toes all the time and mistrust the joy you feel in her presence, which pretty much ruins it. The only actual benefit is that you do get to know her better and build up potential for a great and close friendship for when you get better.

3) Stay friends and keep on loving her in a platonic way (without bringing up the topic again, of course. She's heard you, if she ever considers it she'll let you know). It's by far the less painful and less difficult option to take in the short run, because that's what your heart wants. And contrary to 2), you authorize yourself to feel what you're feeling in her presence. Sure, it's often painful and frustrating, but loving someone, especially someone close to you, is a blissful path and that bliss may very well make up for the pain. Especially if she's insecure or something, and you can be there for her and tell her how awesome she is and help her and give her faith etc. I took that route for two years, and I know it worked for me : I kept saying that it was well worth it.
But in the long run it's a trap. Taking that route means keeping building up emotional investment. Which means that it'll be ten times harder when you eventually do decide to get over her. Because it is unlikely the problem will solve itself, and by feeding your love you make it all the more unlikely. Besides, the friendship will never truly blossom this way : if one loves the other romantically, it's always one-sided and out of balance despite the two people's best efforts. I can't begin to tell you how much more fulfilling my friendship with my girl Helen has been since I've gotten over her (with option 2) after two years of option 3) during which we tried two months of option 1), the process took about a year).

So, three possibilities. Being a reasonable person with no emotional interest in the matter, and since the hard choices to make are not mine, I can safely assure you that the best option is 1). But it's your life, your feelings and all three options are existentially valid. I'm just trying to help you make an educated choice.

[Coidzor]

I can't begin to tell you how much more fulfilling my friendship with my girl Helen has been since I've gotten over her (with option 2) after two years of option 3) during which we tried two months of option 1), the process took about a year).

Ah, but she's not your girl then if you're just friends and you've managed to quash all your feelings for her.

I like to think of them as my favorite ex-girlfriends I never dated when I'm feeling overly purple and florid about it. I prefer even more to just not think of them, though.

So, three possibilities. Being a reasonable person with no emotional interest in the matter, and since the hard choices to make are not mine, I can safely assure you that the best option is 1). But it's your life, your feelings and all three options are existentially valid. I'm just trying to help you make an educated choice.

Indeed.

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run

Your situation, RoyVG, is one where walking away is the best move, but if you don't you need to fold this game.

Whereas dnasrepma needs to run, limp if he has to.

[Seto]

Ah, but she's not your girl then if you're just friends and you've managed to quash all your feelings for her.

I like to think of them as my favorite ex-girlfriends I never dated when I'm feeling overly purple and florid about it. I prefer even more to just not think of them, though.

Not "all my feelings". Only my romantic ones. She's still my friend and dear to me. Let's say that, now that I've well and truly gotten over her, I've earned the right to act like I haven't, and neither of us think anything of it. It's paradoxical, but relationships are tricky that way