Captain Marvel versus Wonder Woman

[Shinken]

So, considering the current incarnations of both heroines, who would win a fight, Carol or Diana?

[Ranxerox]

Diana of Themyscira

[Metahuman1]

I like Carol, I really, really do, (She's one of the very few people that backed Stark during Civil War that I've found myself forgiving.), but I've gotta give this one to Wonder Woman.

New 52 she's Canonically had what, 1,000 years or more of training in combat, with the baseline assumption she will have her powers? And some of that training was from Aries himself to boot. So she wins that department unless the current incarnations feats of raw speed/power/durability leave some kind of insurmountable gap by the numbers that I'm not aware of?

[Chen]

Wikipedia has Wonder Woman as able to travel at half the speed of light whereas it mentions Carol as able to move at half the speed of sound. Since the thread mentions captain Marvel rather than Binary, Carol doesn't seem to stand a chance since Wonder Woman is so much faster.

[Metahuman1]

What about brute strength, durability, stamina feats? In the interests of being fair to Carol, is there a way she could maybe Rope A Dope her way into a win? Or end it on the first hit because Diana doesn't have a reason to think that it's literally make or break to dodge everything thrown at her by this particular opponent?

I know, I'm reaching based on that speed gap, but just to make sure all possible bases are covered.

[BRC]

Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.

[TheThan]

Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

[Shinken]

Wikipedia has Wonder Woman as able to travel at half the speed of light whereas it mentions Carol as able to move at half the speed of sound. Since the thread mentions captain Marvel rather than Binary, Carol doesn't seem to stand a chance since Wonder Woman is so much faster.

That's one of the reasons why I specified New 52 Wonder Woman. She doesn't move anywhere near that speed. The whole Wonder Woman plot has her running around the globe, if she did move that fast the series would be over in issue #2.

Probably not, Marvel characters tend to hover at a lower power level than DC's, and Carol dosn't usually one-shot super-durable opponents anyway.

That was probably true pre-reboot, but everyone at DC is a lot weaker in New 52. Except for the Flash, I think, but no one writes him as powerful as he really is anyway.

I think it's an even match and it could go either way. Their strength and endurance levels seem similar enough to me, Diana is a more skilled fighter, but Carol is a more skilled flyer. Both have their power ups - Diana can remove her bracelets (going Full (demi)God Mode) and Carol can absorb energy (going Full (almost)Binary Mode).

[BRC]

That's one of the reasons why I specified New 52 Wonder Woman. She doesn't move anywhere near that speed. The whole Wonder Woman plot has her running around the globe, if she did move that fast the series would be over in issue #2.


That was probably true pre-reboot, but everyone at DC is a lot weaker in New 52.

I don't know about Nu52 Wonder Woman.

In terms of feats of pure strength, we did get Carol lifting a subway car out of a sinkhole at one point. I think that's the best metric we're going to get in terms of straight power. Not super sure about good metrics for durability, or the strength of her fists/energy blasts.

[Metahuman1]

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

What bugs me is I use to get Marvel Zombies (the fans that only bought marvel comics, not the event itself.), who'd try to tell me that characters like Superman and Green Lantern and Flash are OP Mary Sues, and then in the same sentence would prattle on about how all these marvel cosmic characters or how Thor or Hulk could total them cause there scrubs.

Anyway, does Wikipedia have entry's for her powers post New 52 yet? The way they did for Pre-Post Crises on Infinite Earths?

[Shinken]

What bugs me is I use to get Marvel Zombies (the fans that only bought marvel comics, not the event itself.), who'd try to tell me that characters like Superman and Green Lantern and Flash are OP Mary Sues, and then in the same sentence would prattle on about how all these marvel cosmic characters or how Thor or Hulk could total them cause there scrubs.

Anyway, does Wikipedia have entry's for her powers post New 52 yet? The way they did for Pre-Post Crises on Infinite Earths?

No, mostly because they are not as defined. She couldn't fly in her main title, then they showed her flying in Justice League, then she learned to fly. Diana's power level is still huge and she always looks badass, but there are no exaggerations like someone saying she moves at the speed of light when she is clearly not that fast.

[BRC]

No, mostly because they are not as defined. She couldn't fly in her main title, then they showed her flying in Justice League, then she learned to fly. Diana's power level is still huge and she always looks badass, but there are no exaggerations like someone saying she moves at the speed of light when she is clearly not that fast.

Also, a lot of the time there's some big Feat that the hero pulled off once that everybody uses as a metric.
Okay, by "The Hero" I mean Superman, and either "Flying so fast around the earth he goes back in time" or "Pulling the Earth into a different orbit".
But that alone does a decent job of skewing the DCU's power level.
Superman one pulled the earth into a different orbit, therefore Superman is X strong.
Wonder Woman is usually portrayed as being about at Superman's level, therefore Wonder Woman is approximately X Strong.

This villain once traded blows with Superman, Wonder Woman was also able to take out this villain, ect ect.

I'm sure somebody could pull out similar examples from Marvel (The Hulk once threw rhode island into space, Tony Stark's armor can survive a hit from the Hulk, therefore ect ect), but with DC it's a bit more well-known.

[Shinken]

Also, a lot of the time there's some big Feat that the hero pulled off once that everybody uses as a metric.
Okay, by "The Hero" I mean Superman, and either "Flying so fast around the earth he goes back in time" or "Pulling the Earth into a different orbit".
But that alone does a decent job of skewing the DCU's power level.
Superman one pulled the earth into a different orbit, therefore Superman is X strong.
Wonder Woman is usually portrayed as being about at Superman's level, therefore Wonder Woman is approximately X Strong.

This villain once traded blows with Superman, Wonder Woman was also able to take out this villain, ect ect.

I'm sure somebody could pull out similar examples from Marvel (The Hulk once threw rhode island into space, Tony Stark's armor can survive a hit from the Hulk, therefore ect ect), but with DC it's a bit more well-known.

Marvel is actually a lot more consistent in that front. Hulk, for example, has explicitly variable strength. They also hammer the point one of when something extraordinary happens - Spider-Man defeated Firelord, but that was a one in a million thing.
This reminds me of something that I see a lot on Vs threads - people think character X will win 100% of the time, when that kind of thing should be extremely rare. Can Nightwing beat Batman? Of course, it's just a lot more likely that Batman beats him. For Diana vs Carol, I think it's 50/50. I forgot to mention the energy blasts, that is another thing in Carol's favor, but I'm still going with 50/50 if they fight without power ups. If Carol can manage to absorb Diana's godly energy, she gets an edge, but I'm not sure if she can do that. I'm still stuck in a tie here.

[Giggling Ghast]

Shazam ... sorry, Captain Thunder ... fights Wonder Woman in the animated movie Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox. She wins.

Spoiler

Show

He loses when Wonder Woman uses her golden lasso to force him to say "Shazam", reverting him to Billy Batson and his friends. (This version of Shazam is a Fusion Dance-type hero.) She then kills Billy.

[Metahuman1]

That is unfortunately not helpful, as the Animated series/universes/movies typically run on different power scales, and the flash point paradox's universe was an else world anyway.


And yes, there consistent, until they get cosmic, and then it's just what ever that writer wants to do at the moment, which is how one minute Thanos is a universe level threat and then another time we see him he's getting soloed by Squirrel Girl.


And come to think of it regarding Carols energy blasts, on top of a speed advantage and the bracelets, doesn't Diana also have lighting in the New 52 as part of being Zeus's child?

[Tanuki Tales]

How is Nu52 Diana compared to the other JLA big dogs, by the by? Because, if memory serves, Flash is still massively FTL, Superman is still some degree of FTL or at the least lightspeed and J'onn should be hanging with either one of them. If Diana can fight any of those three guys even halfway serious, she should stomp Carol.

Like I believe I mentioned in that GoG thread, a heavy hitter Carol is not.

[leafman]

Shazam ... sorry, Captain Thunder ... fights Wonder Woman in the animated movie Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox. She wins.

Spoiler

Show

He loses when Wonder Woman uses her golden lasso to force him to say "Shazam", reverting him to Billy Batson and his friends. (This version of Shazam is a Fusion Dance-type hero.) She then kills Billy.

Wrong Captain Marvel, you're thinking of DC's Captain, this thread is about Marvel's Carol Danvers. It's ok, I wasn't sure when I read the thread title either.

I don't really have a point of reference for New 52 Diana, but since she still hangs out with the other big guns of DC, I think she'd win. The power scale between the two just doesn't line up. It might not be a one punch blowout, but still it would be a fairly lopsided fight.

[Jayngfet]

that's the disconnect right there.
DC's major heroes are usually at the top end of their universe's power spectrum, where Marvel's major heroes are not at the top of their universe's power spectrum.

the top end of both universes are mostly even in capability. The problem is that a lot of those characters (particularly in marvel) are not exactly A list characters. So we have the problem of matching up two A list heroes that are starting at two different levels.

its like taking a (stock) ford mustang and trying to race a Nascar stock car, the stock car is going to out preform it.

Eh. DC hereos aren't so much at the top of their scale so much as the scale runs bigger. A Marvel cosmic hero will go tromping around the galaxy, while a DC will tromp around the Universe, for example. DC heroes are built on fundamentally different principles from fundamentally different baseline eras. It's less a mustang vs a stock car and more like two different types of racing car on two different races. That stock car is good on it's own track, but good luck having it win a rally that's thousands of miles through barely working backroads.

A straight punch up is always going to go into a DC Hero's favor. There are plenty of ways marvel hero's can actually win, but they don't come up nearly as often because everyone always goes to a punch up first.

[Shinken]

How is Nu52 Diana compared to the other JLA big dogs, by the by? Because, if memory serves, Flash is still massively FTL, Superman is still some degree of FTL or at the least lightspeed and J'onn should be hanging with either one of them. If Diana can fight any of those three guys even halfway serious, she should stomp Carol.

Like I believe I mentioned in that GoG thread, a heavy hitter Carol is not.

I doubt New 52 Superman is that fast. He is not connected to the speed force and he gets injured by grenades. J'onn is not part of Diana's Justice League and it is implied that he is stronger than all of them put together. The power dynamic is simply not the same in New 52.

That is unfortunately not helpful, as the Animated series/universes/movies typically run on different power scales, and the flash point paradox's universe was an else world anyway.

And also not being the same Captain Marvel.

And yes, there consistent, until they get cosmic, and then it's just what ever that writer wants to do at the moment, which is how one minute Thanos is a universe level threat and then another time we see him he's getting soloed by Squirrel Girl.

Squirrel Girl solo-ing powerful villains is a running gag. It's just a joke. It's not meant to be taken even halfway seriously.

And come to think of it regarding Carols energy blasts, on top of a speed advantage and the bracelets, doesn't Diana also have lighting in the New 52 as part of being Zeus's child?

Zeus' lightning is part of Diana's power up, when she removes her bracelets. If anything, it's a disadvantage for her, because it's something Carol can explicitly absorb.

[ben-zayb]

Wrong Captain Marvel, you're thinking of DC's Captain, this thread is about Marvel's Carol Danvers. It's ok, I wasn't sure when I read the thread title either.

Title's still a bit misleading. Captain Marvel could be anyone from the original Mar-Vell, to Genis-Vell or Phylla-Vell, to the most recent Ms. Marvel.

What are Ms. Marvel's best feats anyway? As already said, while Nu52 depowered DC's heroes, it still a long way to go especially considering Diana is part of the main crew.

[Tanuki Tales]

I doubt New 52 Superman is that fast. He is not connected to the speed force and he gets injured by grenades. J'onn is not part of Diana's Justice League and it is implied that he is stronger than all of them put together. The power dynamic is simply not the same in New 52.

Superman still reacts and acts in the time frame of nanoseconds in New 52. That's at least light speed, if not FTL, if I'm remembering my math correctly. He's not Flash fast, who reacts in freaking Femtoseconds, but its still faster than anyone from Marvel who isn't Thor or Silver Surfer level.

[ben-zayb]

Actually, Supe's doesn't have that much good feats in Nu52 compared to DianaI'm not a fan of Supes. Diana beat up a goddess, among other things.

other Nu52 WW feats

[Shinken]

Title's still a bit misleading. Captain Marvel could be anyone from the original Mar-Vell, to Genis-Vell or Phylla-Vell, to the most recent Ms. Marvel.

The OP specifies Carol for that exact reason.
You also missed Monica Rambeau.

[Metahuman1]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

[SaintRidley]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

Or become the ultimate mythologic power couple.

But yeah, Carol's good, but completely different scales of power here. I'd say 8 or 9 times out of 10 she loses, with a decent margin for possible success if things go right. She's no slouch, but in a straight fight nothing doing.

[Metahuman1]

Don't tell me that first part, I'm still getting over them turning Superman and Wonder Woman into a Power Couple just to do it.

Now, here's a curiosity now that I'm looking at the fact that New Diana is evidently low-mid god tier, how does she stack up in a fight vs Carol as Binary. When she really was a Cosmic Caliber character?

[Tanuki Tales]

So, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of fighting gods to a stand still/getting the upper hand on gods/actually defeating gods. So, unless someone want's to show me that Olympians in New 52 are lower Tier then Asguardians/Olympians in Marvel U but a significant amount, I'd say that pretty much clenches it against Carol at this point. I love her and she's not to be underestimated, but her present power level doesn't even hold a candle to Thor in a straight fight, and the indications are that New 52 Diana could if not beat him certainly give him a serious run for his money.

Remember, regular Asgardians and Olympians are more comparable to The Warriors Three than Thor. And I'd at least see Carol hanging with Volstag for...wait...nevermind. He completely owned the U-Foes by himself.

[Metahuman1]

Even then it seems like Diana's weight class is regularly coming in to major named combatants caliber. Aries, Artemis, so on, maybe Thor's stronger then those guys, but not THAT much stronger, and Diana's hanging in there weight class or perhaps one below, meanwhile, Carol is stacks up to them the way a three year old in a karate class during daycare does against the reigning UFC heavyweight champion.

Yes, that comes off a bit harsher of her skill level/mental facility level then I'd like, but the raw power gap makes it an accurate descriptor for that aspect, and that's the aspect that needed to be focused on.

[Tanuki Tales]

Even then it seems like Diana's weight class is regularly coming in to major named combatants caliber. Aries, Artemis, so on, maybe Thor's stronger then those guys, but not THAT much stronger, and Diana's hanging in there weight class or perhaps one below, meanwhile, Carol is stacks up to them the way a three year old in a karate class during daycare does against the reigning UFC heavyweight champion.

Yes, that comes off a bit harsher of her skill level/mental facility level then I'd like, but the raw power gap makes it an accurate descriptor for that aspect, and that's the aspect that needed to be focused on.

Do the NuOlympians even have any feats comparable to their pre-boot selves? Because Post-Crisis Ares was like...Skyfather tier.

[Devonix]

Superman still reacts and acts in the time frame of nanoseconds in New 52. That's at least light speed, if not FTL, if I'm remembering my math correctly. He's not Flash fast, who reacts in freaking Femtoseconds, but its still faster than anyone from Marvel who isn't Thor or Silver Surfer level.

One problem with the reboot is while they said they were going to bring down powers and such they really haven't Supes is just as strong and fast as he was before the reboot.