General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[mallorean_thug]

Hi DJ Yung Crunk,

Deconstruction is now a useless word (I blame tvtropes for its current state) but I know what you mean when you use it. The shows you're looking for on that note are Bokurano, and Now and Then Here and There.

Alternatively, Magical Girl shows are lots of fun even when they really are made for little girls. Try Princess Tutu, Card Captor Sakura, or Ojamajo Doremi.

[endoperez]

Senki Zesshou Symphogear is another seinen magical girl series, with three seasons so far (the original, G and GX).

Here, let me just link the chart.

The weird naming convention aside, the chart convinced me to at least give it a try. Thanks!

[mallorean_thug]

Oh, I guess that Shadow Star Narutaru and Alien 9 would also qualify, but neither of them is actually all that good, imo.
--
Revolutionary Girl Utena is incredibly good, but I still don't understand people calling it a magical girl show. Like, sure it has a transformation sequence and a fight of the week, but the rest of the tone and structure of the show has far more in common with shoujo shows that /aren't/ magical girl shows. Definitely watch it regardless.
--
Or maybe what made you actually like Madoka wasn't it's genre, but was it's creative staff. In that case, if you're looking for something with a similar overall audiovisual feel, try Le Portrait de Petit Cossette, which has the same director and composer. If instead it was the writing that pulled you in, give Fate/Zero a try.

[Mx.Silver]

Deconstruction is now a useless word

To be honest, it never had a very clear meaning since it was first used to refer to media rather than critique/analysis of media. Heck, even in the latter case it was always a little vague.

[Sallera]

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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The unexplained recovery from the effects of Sange. Just suddenly, right at the end, they completely remove the cost of their powers and the consequences of their actions. It would've been like if Madoka's wish, instead of changing the cycle and removing her from existence as a human, keeping the story a hopeful but fundamentally tragic one, had set up the world like Homura's labyrinth in Rebellion.

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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Oh, you don't buy the theory that Yuuna took the entire burden of the war on herself in exchange for freeing the others? That's basically where I saw the Madoka parallels, but as it wasn't made explicit, I can certainly see where you're coming from if you prefer a different explanation.

So to DJ, how much similarity you see between the two shows will depend somewhat on your interpretation of the ending, but I'd recommend YuYuYu regardless.

[cobaltstarfire]

So the X2 in Durarara X2 stands for twice as many characters, and double the complication right?

I'm starting to find it difficult to keep up with who is who by name because the subtitles are using what I assume is first names, while of course characters usually refer to each other using last names. I still haven't worked out most of the characters names because of this, but now it's even harder!

Well I've got Anri and Iiiizaaaayyyyaaaaa worked out, cause everyone talks to/about them on a first name basis. And have worked out Mikado and Celty cause they're in every episode. But I'm not sure I've been able to commit any other characters names to memory because of the differences between the subs and what is actually being said.

Though at least so far X2 hasn't had entire parts of conversations simply missing, there were some problems with that in the first season. :|

[Sallera]

At least twice as many characters. Heck, there are still a couple characters I routinely forget the names of, if only because they almost never come up in dialogue, and that's near the end of the third cour. There's a reason they feel the need to name everyone of importance in the OP (which of course doesn't help me, 'cause even if I hadn't forgotten half my kanji, well, nanori).

(And then there's poor Togusa, whose name people routinely forget in the show itself.)

[DoctorFaust]

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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Oh, you don't buy the theory that Yuuna took the entire burden of the war on herself in exchange for freeing the others? That's basically where I saw the Madoka parallels, but as it wasn't made explicit, I can certainly see where you're coming from if you prefer a different explanation.

So to DJ, how much similarity you see between the two shows will depend somewhat on your interpretation of the ending, but I'd recommend YuYuYu regardless.

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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I would've preferred an explanation. I've heard that there's more concrete details in supplementary materials, but the best thing we got in the main series that I can remember was Fuu's remarks about it being okay to eat offerings after a while during the beach episode. So it came off quite a lot like unexplained heroic willpower despite it having been stated (I'm pretty sure) that the effects of Sange should be permanent.

Though yeah, I guess I would probably recommend it regardless.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Deconstruction is now a useless word (I blame tvtropes for its current state) but I know what you mean when you use it. The shows you're looking for on that note are Bokurano, and Now and Then Here and There.

You overrate TVTropes influence, I feel. For example, I had no idea it existed until you brought it up.

Looking at it now I think I was better off that way.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM?

No.

That's the literal answer to your question, but I doubt its helpful.

Ground Defence Force Mao-chan is a better deconstruction than Madoka, but comparing those series would be silly.

S3 is more of a military fiction, really. Military fiction for kids, granted, but still.

Nanoha was never for kids. Neither was Madoka Magica either of course, but Nanoha is insidious in how its not that obvious.

This is not the most precise representation of Nanoha. As a die-hard fan I feel compelled to provide more detail.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (the original series) was the first magical girl show targeted entirely at adults, and can be considered the precursor to all serious magical girl anime

Not at all. Uta-Kata came out at exactly the same time and was much more adult themed (same audience though). It was only an OVA (the tv series had a younger demographic) but at least Pretty Sammy preceded them.

Sailor Moon is more serious than Nanoha. It doesn't have military organisations, but it has far more mature themes and plot details despite the younger demographic.

From what I've heard of it: Yuki Yuna is a Hero.

Some, myself included, feel like that took away from the story because of how they did it.

Yuki Yuna's ending destroyed the whole thing completely. Though from my opinion, there wasn't much of value in the rest of it either. Sadly I can't say why I hate it on this forum because it involves a certain 19th century US quack doctor.

Its also clumsy, melodramatic and has an idiot plot, so I can say that at least.

There were serious and introspective mecha shows before Evangelion.

Eva is serious and introspective on the topic of growing up, which is kind of what all mainline genre compliant mecha shows are about anyway.

While much of PMMM is playing with magical girl genre in general, in some parts, it's spoofing Nanoha specifically.

I doubt it. Nanoha is very generic.

Spoiler: if you mean

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that the inability to save Sayaka is the opposite of the 'beat em up to befriend them' in Nanoha then that's really a very standard thing in both Tokusatsu and the sub genre of magical girl we're talking about (which is really just gender swapped Tokusatsu). If you're a similar age to me and saw the original Power Rangers, the Green Ranger was basically that story line.

The witches in Madoka are really more a play on the 'civilian turned into monster' trope common in magical girl series and Tokusatsu which is barely present in Nanoha.

Having to convince an evil friend to change sides is very common and comes in two forms. Villains who start as villains and change sides and heroes who have a brief time as a villain. Sayaka is the latter subverted and Fate is the former played straight so while they're the same trope they're different versions of it.

The biggest similarity between Madoka and Nanoha within the genre is that they both have wish twisting, but the jewel seeds doing that in Nanoha is quickly minimised while its a major theme in Madoka.

The thing about magical girl shows is that ironic self-awareness is in itself a magical girl cliche, so its hard to actually spot at time when something is being a spoof or just toeing the line.

I've seen magical girl parodies where all the jokes were shared with legitimate magical girl series, but less funny.

[endoperez]

I doubt it. Nanoha is very generic.

Spoiler: if you mean

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that the inability to save Sayaka is the opposite of the 'beat em up to befriend them' in Nanoha then that's really a very standard thing in both Tokusatsu and the sub genre of magical girl we're talking about (which is really just gender swapped Tokusatsu). If you're a similar age to me and saw the original Power Rangers, the Green Ranger was basically that story line.

The witches in Madoka are really more a play on the 'civilian turned into monster' trope common in magical girl series and Tokusatsu which is barely present in Nanoha.

Having to convince an evil friend to change sides is very common and comes in two forms. Villains who start as villains and change sides and heroes who have a brief time as a villain. Sayaka is the latter subverted and Fate is the former played straight so while they're the same trope they're different versions of it.

The biggest similarity between Madoka and Nanoha within the genre is that they both have wish twisting, but the jewel seeds doing that in Nanoha is quickly minimised while its a major theme in Madoka.

Think smaller.

Spoiler

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Animal mascot is long and thin with long tail.

Animal mascot is wounded in first episode. There's a dream, and the voice of the mascot asking for help. The protagonist & her two friends find the mascot.

Nanoha enters into a contract with Raging Heart, a magical gem she uses to transform.

Monsters drop magical things called Jewel / Witch Seeds.

That sort of thing. Visual gags & references. Also stuff like exchanging hair ribbons on last episode during a tearful goodbye. And shipping. The action & themes have much less in common.

Nanoha seemed to be written either for kids or for teenagers. Or then it was very lightweight. It's the animated equivalent of Young Adult fiction at most. If it wasn't, half the cast would be dead at the end of the third season. They pulled a lot of punches, as if their audience could not be handle more, even in their military fiction.

[Prime32]

Think smaller.

Spoiler

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Animal mascot is long and thin with long tail.

Animal mascot is wounded in first episode. There's a dream, and the voice of the mascot asking for help. The protagonist & her two friends find the mascot.

Nanoha enters into a contract with Raging Heart, a magical gem she uses to transform.

Monsters drop magical things called Jewel / Witch Seeds.

That sort of thing. Visual gags & references. Also stuff like exchanging hair ribbons on last episode during a tearful goodbye. And shipping. The action & themes have much less in common.

Those things are all incredibly generic. Like, Card Captor Sakura fits every one of those.

Nanoha seemed to be written either for kids or for teenagers. Or then it was very lightweight. It's the animated equivalent of Young Adult fiction at most. If it wasn't, half the cast would be dead at the end of the third season. They pulled a lot of punches, as if their audience could not be handle more, even in their military fiction.

Adults can only enjoy things where lots of characters die? Kids never enjoy things where characters die? You realise that the most popular childrens' book series of the 90s was about child soldiers slowly losing their humanity as they tore apart their friends and family with their bare hands?

[endoperez]

Those things are all incredibly generic. Like, Card Captor Sakura fits every one of those.

Except the mascot isn't hurt in the first episode. And it's Clow Cards instead of Seeds. And her magical thing is a wand (with gems, admittedly, but not a gem).

I admit that since I don't know the genre, I might've thought some of the things that I thought were about Nanoha specifically were about the genre in general.

Adults can only enjoy things where lots of characters die? Kids never enjoy things where characters die? You realise that the most popular childrens' book series of the 90s was about child soldiers slowly losing their humanity as they tore apart their friends and family with their bare hands?

That wasn't the only reason that I think it's a kids' show, but I'll expand on it a bit more.

The writing was limited in ways I associate with the sorts of writing that is dumbed down for kids, and avoided handling things in the way I associate with adults who try to avoid hard, tough topics when talking with kids or teenagers.

It's the fact that the show goes to extreme lengths to avoid the logical consequences of characters' actions, while previously, it intentionally showed the logical consequences of characters' actions. "This character overdid it, and was seriously hurt". "This character pushed too far, and broke". And then...

Spoiler

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Vita, whose weakening healing capabilities had been specifically mentioned earlier, overdid it. That is, after being warned that she's using too much of her energy, after being stabbed through her chest, after fighting an army of minions only seen when stabbing characters through their chests or outright killing people, after barely making it to a room that is trapped, after she uses all the rest of her power and then falls down, knowing she spent her all... she lives, because reasons. After basically a death scene (complete with a winged figure appearing from within a white light and giving her an eulogy, then the whole room exploding) she's back on her feet and fighting. With the weapon she just smashed to itty bitty pieces. And some of her friends go past and go "nice, you're ok!". Uhhhh.....

The story, as written, seemed to be perfectly written so she'd die or at the very least severely hurt herself because she pushed herself too far, without listening to anyone's warnings. Then she didn't suffer any ill effects. Why? A magical girl did it.

I think that we might have very different tastes, and are interested in very different things in the series we watch. You mentioned Symphogear earlier, and while it was decent for a while and did some things well, I thought it just kept getting worse as it went on. Especially the final episodes of the first season. They were pretty much a constant nose-dive.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree?

[Prime32]

That wasn't the only reason that I think it's a kids' show, but I'll expand on it a bit more.

The writing was limited in ways I associate with the sorts of writing that is dumbed down for kids, and avoided handling things in the way I associate with adults who try to avoid hard, tough topics when talking with kids or teenagers.

It's the fact that the show goes to extreme lengths to avoid the logical consequences of characters' actions, while previously, it intentionally showed the logical consequences of characters' actions. "This character overdid it, and was seriously hurt". "This character pushed too far, and broke". And then...

Spoiler

Show

Vita, whose weakening healing capabilities had been specifically mentioned earlier, overdid it. That is, after being warned that she's using too much of her energy, after being stabbed through her chest, after fighting an army of minions only seen when stabbing characters through their chests or outright killing people, after barely making it to a room that is trapped, after she uses all the rest of her power and then falls down, knowing she spent her all... she lives, because reasons. After basically a death scene (complete with a winged figure appearing from within a white light and giving her an eulogy, then the whole room exploding) she's back on her feet and fighting. With the weapon she just smashed to itty bitty pieces. And some of her friends go past and go "nice, you're ok!". Uhhhh.....

The story, as written, seemed to be perfectly written so she'd die or at the very least severely hurt herself because she pushed herself too far, without listening to anyone's warnings. Then she didn't suffer any ill effects. Why? A magical girl did it.

I'd say that character would be more likely to die in a (Japanese) kids' show, not less. Kids' shows tend to focus on the idea that the protagonist is the only person capable of saving the world - if you're not the destined hero, then "acting outside your place" is doomed to failure and it's stupid for you to even try. At best you can hope to delay the villain until the protagonist shows up. Granted, kids' shows are also more likely to have ways to bring dead characters back to life once the villain is defeated.

Shows aimed at older audiences are less likely to follow this idea, and more likely to spread the competence around.

I think that we might have very different tastes, and are interested in very different things in the series we watch. [...]

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree?

On what exactly? I'm not trying to say any of these shows are good or bad, I'm just saying that the amount of death in a show has nothing to do with whether it was aimed at kids.

[endoperez]

On what exactly? I'm not trying to say any of these shows are good or bad, I'm just saying that the amount of death in a show has nothing to do with whether it was aimed at kids.

I think there's no point to these arguments, so... on various things?

BTW, I agree that in most cases death, or lack of it, doesn't tell if a show is aimed at kids.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Well if "death" is substituted for "sent to the shadow realm" it's a safe bet it's a kid's show.

[Lethologica]

TBF, three points on that:
1) The manga has a lot more death and less Shadow Realm than the anime.
2) The sub has noticeably more death and less Shadow Realm than the dub.
3) The Shadow Realm is fridge horror, like being plane shifted to Baator. (Fridge horror instead of death is a pretty kids' show thing to do, so this isn't necessarily arguing against you.)

[Prime32]

In the Japanese version, a Shadow Realm isn't even a place you send people. It's just the field of darkness that appears around the duelists in a duel that involves magic.

That fight where "Dark Energy Disks" move closer to you as you lose lifepoints, and if they touch your legs your soul will be trapped? That was an edit for the English dub - in the original they're buzzsaws.

The English dub makes a lot of weird changes, like turning a random man disguised as Kaiba into "Kaiba's evil half brought back from the Shadow Realm", editing out all forms of guns (leading Kaiba to jump out a window to escape a group of thugs pointing at him with their fingers), and turning Marik's motivation from "Kill the Pharaoh because I mistakenly believe he killed my parents" to "Take over the world".

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I know. I'm making fun of 4kids.

[endoperez]

Well if "death" is substituted for "sent to the shadow realm" it's a safe bet it's a kid's show.

Phantom zone, shadow realm...
Superman is for kids. QED.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler

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I doubt it , that would mean erasing Kayo and Hiromis baby which doesn't seem like it will happen. I think it's more likely he will carry on then hook up with the Pizza girl.

Erased Final spoilers.

Spoiler

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Not sure if the ending was implying a romantic hook up but I'd say that was pretty spot on :P.

Overall I'd say it's been decent but not particularly memorable in anyway.

[kamikasei]

Erased Final spoilers.

Spoiler

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Not sure if the ending was implying a romantic hook up but I'd say that was pretty spot on :P.

Overall I'd say it's been decent but not particularly memorable in anyway.

Spoiler

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I think the implication was clear. Only real quibble I have with the ending, which overall I thought was very satisfying.

I rate it higher than you, which I guess is just a taste thing. You can pick the plot and mystery apart, but I found it very moving. It's the thing I've seen this year I'd be most likely to recommend to others, with mainstream appeal too.

[DoctorFaust]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are going to **** on this as a blatant cash-grab, but I am genuinely excited about Adult Swim announcing that there will be more FLCL. And they're trying to bring back The Pillows! And we actually have some plot details!

Back for the new season is FLCL series creator Kazuya Tsurumaki, serving as supervisor with director Katsuyuki Motohiro (Psycho-Pass) and character designer Yoshiyuki Sadamoto (Neon Genesis Evangelion). Also joining this season is writer Hideto Iwai (Last Dinner).

Established in 1987, Production I.G has since produced a number of acclaimed feature films and TV shows, and has also partnered with Mamoru Oshii on every one of his animated films since Patlabor: The Movie (1989), thereby earning an international admiration which eventually led to the visionary collaboration with Quentin Tarantino for the animation sequence in his hit, Kill Bill: Vol. 1 (2003). They are most known for the Ghost in the Shell franchise, and for the acclaimed animated TV series Psycho-pass and Attack on Titan.

“FLCL has become an anime classic over the years, yet it has remained vibrant,” said Mitsuhisa Ishikawa, co-founder, president and CEO of Production I.G. “This new season will capture the hearts of both longtime FLCL fans from around the world and new anime viewers.”

In the new season of FLCL, many years have passed since Naota and Haruhara Haruko shared their adventure together. Meanwhile, the war between the two entities known as Medical Mechanica and Fraternity rages across the galaxy. Enter Hidomi, a young teenaged girl who believes there is nothing amazing to expect from her average life, until one day when a new teacher named Haruko arrives at her school. Soon enough, Medical Mechanica is attacking her town and Hidomi discovers a secret within her that could save everyone, a secret that only Haruko can unlock.

[mallorean_thug]

I don't really care about whether its a cash grab or not, but I have 0 interest in a sequel with completely different staff. The heart and soul of FLCL was in its energetic animation and direction. So, at least for me, if there's no Hiroyuki Imaishi, Yoh Yoshinari, Tadashi Hiramatsu, ect, ect, there's no sale. And putting the guy who directed Psycho Pass in charge of it doesn't really inspire any confidence in me. Not that he's an awful director, but the style he's used for Psycho-Pass is nowhere close to the zaniness you'd expect from FLCL, and he isn't somebody that's shown any ability to pull in cool freelancers for a cut or two.

So yeah, color me not impressed. Maybe more worthwhile than Adult Swim funding Dimension W (ugghh, I'm still watching it for some reason and its a bad show), but I'd much rather they fund actually cool and risky like more Space Dandy or something.

[tensai_oni]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are going to **** on this as a blatant cash-grab,

That'd be me. Hello.

FLCL is a self contained work that doesn't need a sequel, its shortness works for it. Also what mallorean thug said above.

If they really want to have an anime with the Pillows in it, why not adapt Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer instead.

[DoctorFaust]

That'd be me. Hello.

FLCL is a self contained work that doesn't need a sequel, its shortness works for it. Also what mallorean thug said above.

Honestly, based on the description, it seems less like a sequel and more like a... rehashing or reimagining, I think the term would be. It's not a continuation of the story of Takkun and Haruko, it's just a story set in the same universe that focuses on more of Haruko's ******* about with other people's lives.

Which, come to think of it, describes a sequel pretty well, but not in the sense I was thinking of when I started writing this post. Isn't posting at 3 AM fun?

Anyway, it actually looks like Adult Swim called FLCL the best show they've ever aired on Toonami, so I would sincerely doubt they would've gone ahead with this if they thought it was going to be half-assed.

If they really want to have an anime with the Pillows in it, why not adapt Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer instead.

Honestly, I agree with you. I would much rather have Hoshi no Samidare get animated than this. Problem is, that probably has about as much chance of happening as season 3 of Spice and Wolf, so I'll take my Pillows where I can get them.

And mallorean, while I don't disagree with you about the animation and directing, saying that it has completely different staff is a bit of an exaggeration. The original creator of FLCL is on board, the original character designer is, and as far as I can tell, we know literally nothing about the animation team as of it.

[mallorean_thug]

And mallorean, while I don't disagree with you about the animation and directing, saying that it has completely different staff is a bit of an exaggeration. The original creator of FLCL is on board, the original character designer is, and as far as I can tell, we know literally nothing about the animation team as of it.

Tsurumaki and Sadamoto? I sincerely doubt that Tsurumaki will be heavily involved at all, otherwise he'd be the actual director rather than the Chief Director. And he should still be busy with the last Rebuild movie, unless Khara already finished it without telling anybody. And while I'm always glad to see Sadamoto on staff somewhere, I generally don't regard characters designs as nearly as important as other core staff positions.

As far as the animation team, we know its being produced at Production IG, which is a large enough company that they mostly do stuff in house. Here's what they've done recently. You can look at the staff lists on ANN, they mostly don't bring in freelancers. So, does anybody notable that worked on FLCL work for current Production IG? As far as I can tell, the answer is no. Most of them stuck together and are all at Trigger. A few of them are at Khara and given Tsurumaki's involvement, might end up on the project. So that's fair enough.

Of the people at Production IG, we also know that it won't be a group that's already working on a project. So it won't be any of the people working on Joker Game right now (which look like they were mostly working on GitS Arise and the movie previously). And with Haikyu! Season 3 announced for the fall, it won't be any of them. I think that leaves the chunk of staff that was most recently working on the Psycho-Pass movie? Which makes sense given that its the same director? Yeah, I'm not too excited about that group of people.

[kamikasei]

I forgot some stuff I meant to say about ERASED.

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I was really, really pleased that Satoru told people what he knew. Aside from how it tied into the idea of not trying to take everything on yourself and being willing to reach out to the people around you, it's also just not stupid in a way that so many stories sadly lack. Given the timing on the scene with his mother immediately following Yashiro saying he'd text her a suicide note, I was half expecting that scene to become "by the way, I am 100% not suicidal and if it looks like I've killed myself in the near future that's because someone's covering up my murder, please investigate". Which I'd honestly have loved XD

On FLCL: eh, I love the original but it doesn't feel incomplete or in need of continuation, and it seems inevitable that anything trying to follow on from it directly will fall short. I'm particularly worried that something trying to do today what it did then would just be an unwatchable riot of unrestrained self-indulgence, as I found Kill la Kill to be (in, admittedly, the one episode I watched). On the other hand, we did get Kyousougiga not so long ago and that in many ways felt like it was occupying the same niche... but it had the advantage that it wasn't trying to directly compare itself.

In summary, just give us L&BH already damn it.

[Rodin]

Wasn't part of the joy of FLCL the fact that the crew making it were coming off of End of Evangelion and were thus going balls-to-the-wall to blow off steam? I don't think they can replicate that without locking the production crew up with a rabid badger for 6 weeks first.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So, I watch Yugioh Arc V cause..as a Magic the Gathering player it amuses me.

so give me one moment while I turn into a rabid fanboy

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OMG OMG OMG OMG JACK ATLAS INVOKED THE CRIMSON DRAGON AND DOUBLE TUNED IN THE LATEST EPISODE

okay I am done.