The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Zevox]

On a side note, Mark Hamill has renounced his renunciation of The Last Jedi.

Mark Hamill @HamillHimself
I regret voicing my doubts and insecurities in public. Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make a good movie. I got more than that - @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/st...6%7Ctwterm%5E3

As others mentioned, you're reading that wrong - he didn't renounce anything he said, just said that he regrets saying it in public. Which makes sense coming from an actor whose words are being used by people who are pretty upset at the film he was just.

Not that it would matter even if he were taking back what he said. Hamill having that criticism himself didn't create the audience reaction to how Luke was portrayed, it just added fuel to the fire.

What even was Jacen Solo's motivation for turning to the Dark Side? It has been many years since I read the abomination that was Legacy of the Force, but I remember the reasoning seeming tortured and nonsensical to me at the time.

I vaguely recall it involving the revelation/retcon that Vergere had been a Sith, plus his pre-existing interest in learning every different variety of force discipline out there. Greater details elude me though, I only read that one once, for obvious reasons.

Today it occured to me that Last Jedi is totally a rehash of The Empire Strikes Back, despite what people have been saying to the contrary.

The Battle of Hoth was moved to the end.
The chase by the Super Star Destroyer was without asteroids.
Rey goes to see a reluctant master on an isolated rainy planet and goes into a Dark Side Cave.
Rey leaves said planet to face Kylo (despite the urging of her teacher, I believe to remember).
Trip to a super shiny and fancy planet that turns out to not be at all what they hoped.

It's history repeating itself, but with the important difference that Rey faces Kylo and wins.

...well, damn. I hadn't thought of equating Cloud City with the casino place, but yeah, there's some parallel there - including that they went there seeking an ally, and that ally wound up betraying them to the villains. The chase is a much vaguer connection to make, but still there to an extent. Dang, so, that means the only major scenes without some kind of parallel in TLJ are, what, "I am your father" and Han getting captured and frozen in carbonite? And the former is only barely averted by the decision to make Rey's parents nobodies.

They did a good job of changing enough things to not make the film look like a blatant rehash the way TFA was, but it really is more or less a remix of Empire, with the Throne Room scene from Return of the Jedi thrown in, isn't it?

However...

My hope for redemption isn't the redemption of Kylo Ren. It is the redemption of this trilogy by having the final installment be the coronation and ascent of Kylo Ren as the new power in the galaxy...the culmination of his one dream/goal/aspiration - to become the idealized Darth Vader. Kylo Ren defeats Rey and establishes the new Empire and ushers in decade(s) of tyranny and totalitarian rule. That in effect, VII, VIII and IX are all setting the stage for the Dark Side's triumph...followed quickly by news of the next trilogy giving us a new host of heroes and a clean slate.

You would have a hell of a hard time selling that to me as a "redemption" of the trilogy in any way, rather than the worst possible outcome. Kylo actually suddenly becoming competent and capable of winning would not seem like a credible outcome to me at this point, but rather a total a**-pull - plus it would mean we're stuck with him for even more films, which I really don't want. The film would somehow have to actually salvage Kylo Ren as a character before it could make me enjoy an outcome where he ends up remotely successful, and I really don't believe that's possible at this point.

Though I suppose you could argue I'm just no longer the target audience for Episode 9, since at this point the only way I'll even go to see it is if it gets unexpectedly good word-of-mouth after release, and specifically from people like me who didn't like either of its predecessors.

[Devonix]

I have to say that out of all of the characters, out of all of the actors. Adam Driver's portrayal of Ben Solo, is my favorite part of these films. And losing him would be a big blow for my enjoyment of them.

[Mordar]

You would have a hell of a hard time selling that to me as a "redemption" of the trilogy in any way, rather than the worst possible outcome. Kylo actually suddenly becoming competent and capable of winning would not seem like a credible outcome to me at this point, but rather a total a**-pull - plus it would mean we're stuck with him for even more films, which I really don't want. The film would somehow have to actually salvage Kylo Ren as a character before it could make me enjoy an outcome where he ends up remotely successful, and I really don't believe that's possible at this point.

Though I suppose you could argue I'm just no longer the target audience for Episode 9, since at this point the only way I'll even go to see it is if it gets unexpectedly good word-of-mouth after release, and specifically from people like me who didn't like either of its predecessors.

I have to say that out of all of the characters, out of all of the actors. Adam Driver's portrayal of Ben Solo, is my favorite part of these films. And losing him would be a big blow for my enjoyment of them.

There's a lot more to it that I don't have time to write right now...but I think this setup (TFA/TLJ) shows a number of points where something terrible could have been stopped before it became too big, too strong, or even too competent. Kylo Ren has huge power and no precision or control. But he has been learning...and the people that could have stopped him have so far failed to do so. He is easy to dislike and dismiss (I did it for most of TFA and the time between then and now), but I can see it working.

Devonix: And that may be why I now am starting to like the character portrayal (not the characters). Perfect as the entitled edgelord with delusions of grandeur...that are becoming less and less delusion.

- M

[Zevox]

There's a lot more to it that I don't have time to write right now...but I think this setup (TFA/TLJ) shows a number of points where something terrible could have been stopped before it became too big, too strong, or even too competent. Kylo Ren has huge power and no precision or control. But he has been learning...and the people that could have stopped him have so far failed to do so. He is easy to dislike and dismiss (I did it for most of TFA and the time between then and now), but I can see it working.

Devonix: And that may be why I now am starting to like the character portrayal (not the characters). Perfect as the entitled edgelord with delusions of grandeur...that are becoming less and less delusion.

- M

I will simply say that I don't see that at all. Kylo Ren is honestly the one consistent thing that I disliked in both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi for basically the same reasons. I don't see him learning, or any reason shown to believe he's capable of anything more than we've seen to date. I honestly wish he could have been cast aside with Snoke so that we could have a villain worthy of being the main villain of a film instead - though of course that was never going to happen in the middle of a trilogy. If that doesn't happen after Episode 9, when it actually makes sense for it to happen, the odds of me ever going to see Star Wars films other than the side stories will likely drop substantially.

[Scowling Dragon]

And that may be why I now am starting to like the character portrayal (not the characters). Perfect as the entitled edgelord with delusions of grandeur...that are becoming less and less delusion.

- M

But for very weak and stupid reasons. It continues to be more like he keeps stumbling into BS luck then any kind of innate growth.

[Dr.Samurai]

I can see what Mordar is saying. It could definitely be interesting. I don't think it would redeem the trilogy for me by any stretch, because there is plenty wrong with the trilogy over and above Kylo Ren.

But I did find Kylo intriguing briefly in TFA before he started dwindling into a shadow of his former self scene after scene, until he was left bleeding and broken on the snowy grounds of Starkiller Base.

What I found so enjoyable about the awful prequels was Palpatine manipulating the entire galaxy into granting him an Empire. So I see the merit in the idea of watching how an insufferable ******* like Kylo rose to become the new ruler of the galaxy.

But... everything involved, including the character himself, is not compelling enough for me to care at the moment. I'm certainly not going to watch Episode 9 unless the conditions Zevox mentioned are satisfied.

[Devonix]

I can see what Mordar is saying. It could definitely be interesting. I don't think it would redeem the trilogy for me by any stretch, because there is plenty wrong with the trilogy over and above Kylo Ren.

But I did find Kylo intriguing briefly in TFA before he started dwindling into a shadow of his former self scene after scene, until he was left bleeding and broken on the snowy grounds of Starkiller Base.

What I found so enjoyable about the awful prequels was Palpatine manipulating the entire galaxy into granting him an Empire. So I see the merit in the idea of watching how an insufferable ******* like Kylo rose to become the new ruler of the galaxy.

But... everything involved, including the character himself, is not compelling enough for me to care at the moment. I'm certainly not going to watch Episode 9 unless the conditions Zevox mentioned are satisfied.

I understand that if you wanted a mastermind villain Kylo Ren is a great disappointment. To me what they are doing with him is like a better version of Anakin's fall in the Prequels. He's this boy, really even if he's older he still feels like some kid playing in his grandfather's closet. Someone who hates himself so much, and sees his selfhatred reflected in the eyes of others.

It's probably why him seeing Luke standing over him drove him over the edge, If people see him as a monster, then dammit he's gonna be a monster. But he doesn't know how even do that properly. And you have Snoke who's surrounding himself with all of these aimless children, because that's exactly what the first order is. They're children being led by children. They have captured and indoctrinated child soldiers and officers who drank the coolaid being dished out by some David Koresh Style individual.

Because Snoke wasn't a mastermind, he's was a cult leader, its even there in the way the character dresses. Its there in how he doesn't know the technical aspects of his own military. He built this thing through charisma and money. And now that he's gone well... Now the children are actually running the shop without daddy.

[Reddish Mage]

I have to say that out of all of the characters, out of all of the actors. Adam Driver's portrayal of Ben Solo, is my favorite part of these films. And losing him would be a big blow for my enjoyment of them.

He’s a villain. A complex and human villain, but ultimately he decides again and again to take actions that kill a lot of people for his own power.

They did a lot of things with him that make him an ill-fit for Big Bad like Vader was.

The Darth Vader fanboy doesn’t ring true to me. Snoke basically calls him to task for it in his first scene in Episode VII. I’m not sure how much more they can do with this aspect.

I find him annoying and not someone I especially want to see succeed or be redeemed, but even if you have another opinion of him, what can we see from him? How does this character complete his story in a way that compliments going on with the heroes?

Moreover, now that we lost the scary characters on the side of the First Order, are we really going to buy their threat in the next movie?

[Dr.Samurai]

I understand that if you wanted a mastermind villain Kylo Ren is a great disappointment. To me what they are doing with him is like a better version of Anakin's fall in the Prequels. He's this boy, really even if he's older he still feels like some kid playing in his grandfather's closet. Someone who hates himself so much, and sees his selfhatred reflected in the eyes of others.

Well, I meant more that I enjoyed the prequels if for nothing more than seeing the rise of the Empire (so if Mordar's idea were to be true, I can see merit in it). It made Palpatine such a great character for me, because I do enjoy a good mastermind :).

I wasn't expecting Kylo to be a mastermind. I just don't really get what he's going for. It's easier for me to see a bad person trying to do good, then to see a troubled person trying very hard to be bad. I can't really relate to that or understand it very well, and I don't think the movies do a good job of trying to get me to understand it in some form or another.

It's probably why him seeing Luke standing over him drove him over the edge, If people see him as a monster, then dammit he's gonna be a monster. But he doesn't know how even do that properly. And you have Snoke who's surrounding himself with all of these aimless children, because that's exactly what the first order is. They're children being led by children. They have captured and indoctrinated child soldiers and officers who drank the coolaid being dished out by some David Koresh Style individual.

That's an interesting note about children leading children!

Because Snoke wasn't a mastermind, he's was a cult leader, its even there in the way the character dresses. Its there in how he doesn't know the technical aspects of his own military. He built this thing through charisma and money. And now that he's gone well... Now the children are actually running the shop without daddy.

I think I definitely lean towards liking competent characters. And I'm not getting that from anyone except Rey at this point, and even Rey doesn't know what she can do until she does it. So while some people find the idea of the First Order now under the control of two people that can't really control it intriguing, I don't. I'd prefer to see someone wielding the First Order with the utmost efficiency and precision, and watch the heroes struggling to achieve something incredible and heroic and against the odds. I feel like this movie took both of those things away from me, and it's why I'm not interested in the next one.

[-D-]

Because Snoke wasn't a mastermind, he's was a cult leader, its even there in the way the character dresses. Its there in how he doesn't know the technical aspects of his own military. He built this thing through charisma and money. And now that he's gone well... Now the children are actually running the shop without daddy.

[Citation needed]

Right. And he probably inherited the Starkiller base, under Republics nose.

The thing is this movie is just inconsistent.

Yoda acts like crazy, fake Yoda.
You should not sacrifice yourself to save others - see Finn, except when you should - see Luke, Holdo.
Snoke is cult leader, that amassed an army, money, huge ass star base, several ships, etc.
Luke gives up very easily, even if old Luke wouldn't.
Ships can't lightspeed ram, unless they do, etc.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yoda acts like crazy, fake Yoda.

Yeah, that was weird. It's like, okay, maybe you mistook Yoda's act as his actual personality. But... look at what you did to everyone/thing else. Maybe you weren't really sure about the lore or characters in the first place? I don't know, is criticism that comes from that perspective bad? Should it be automatically dismissed?

If you're going to tell me I'm seeing a movie with Luke and Yoda and Han and the Force, well, I should probably be able to recognize them as such.

If it's not that you weren't sure but that you deliberately wanted to change everything to this extent, well, surely you have to expect some amount of disappointment.

[Devonix]

The First Order being fully competent and powerful would be cool. Very cool. But to me it's more interesting having them be dangerous... but not in control. Having power, but not knowing what to do with it. The difference between The First Order and The Empire is that Palpatine was always in control, always played the long game and knew what he was after.

The First Order is reactionary, They've got power but don't know what to do with it, don't know that spending all their time and effort chasing down the Resistance is not a good use of their resources. Just send one or two stardestroyers after their transports and go about the business of actually trying to take over the Galaxy.

With Palpatine in control, yeah Evil was ruling the Galaxy, but Evil was ruling it well. As the saying goes, At least the trains ran on time. But now we've got an evil power that would screw up the train schedule, and if this movie is anything to go by with the Casino scene, there are other powers out there that don't even worry much about them. Remember the First Order isn't even building their own ships, Where's all that money going to come from now. Who's got the charisma to hold the First Order together. Ben doesn't, Hux doesn't.

It's possible someone else is going to come in and seize control, We'll have the next movie with Hux and Ben countermanding each other's orders, or someone else pitting them against each other.

[Devonix]

I don't really get the Crazy Fake Yoda joke. Yes Yoda acted a bit silly, but he did that even in his youth. Well as young as he was in the Prequel movies. He still had wisdom for Luke, he just had fun showing how silly Luke was acting.

[Blackhawk748]

Kylo could have been interesting, but this movie friggin killed him. I mean, he was at least a competent saber duelist in TFA, but in this he swings his lightsaber light a drunkard swinging a pool cue. (seriously, who choreographed that fight? It was horrific).

Rey is apparently Silver Age Superman and Can Do Anything, Once. (i dont actually think we've seen her repeat a feat, except saber fighting)

Fin is about as underutilized as Phasma.

Poe went from hotshot pilot to a caricature of a hot shot pilot.

Hux went from Rapid Madman With An Army to Shrieking ManChild With Army That Doesnt Respect Him, its a serious step down.

In short, if your name isn't Rey, you got actively worse in this film. And Rey only got better because her actress got better, her character is still extremely 2 dimensional.

I don't really get the Crazy Fake Yoda joke. Yes Yoda acted a bit silly, but he did that even in his youth. Well as young as he was in the Prequel movies. He still had wisdom for Luke, he just had fun showing how silly Luke was acting.

Because Yoda doesnt joke around when hes having a teaching moment.

[-D-]

I don't really get the Crazy Fake Yoda joke. Yes Yoda acted a bit silly, but he did that even in his youth. Well as young as he was in the Prequel movies. He still had wisdom for Luke, he just had fun showing how silly Luke was acting.

Prequel Yoda is serious, sombre Yoda. Also very boring.

OT Yoda, acted funny at the start, to test Luke, then he acted way more wise and collected.

Last Jedi Yoda acts childish, and while offering advice, he isn't the wise or sombre Joda from the past.

[Scowling Dragon]

To me what they are doing with him is like a better version of Anakin's fall in the Prequels.

I actually think Anakin is WAY better.

And sue me: But he is essentially a Mary Sue thats been given everything by fate, a subversion of the idea of a chosen one. So he becomes an overconfident whiny child.
The way he coasts through things is expecting life to just do things for him. And eventually he sees the same thing with people as well. When he believed the force would allow him to surpass death, he truly accepts the dark side.

TLDR:

Anakin wasn't Wannabe Darth Vader. Anakin was Wannabe overlord of the galaxy.

Wannabe Darth vader is at best a step down.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

There was at least one hyperspace accident in Legends:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pammant/Legends

where the realspace object - a planet - took massive damage.

Written by the same author that introduced the term "hypermatter" in the first place.

Actually, while the wiki article implies that the Quaestor collided with the planet while in hyperspace, the original sources just say this:

Invisible Hand was built in a factory in the tunneled Quarren colony world of Pammant. The planet was recently devastated with radioactivity and fractured to the core by a cataclysmic hyperspace accident involving the Republic's Star Battlecruiser Quaestor.

The Quaestor, a Republic Praetor-class battlecruiser, led a raid against the Separatist shipbuilding facilities at Pammant, where her hyperdrive was damaged by torpedo droids. The Quaestor's hyperdrive engaged, rocketing the great ship into the planet. The impact scattered radioactive particles through Pammant's atmosphere and fractured its core.

A "hyperspace accident" could indeed mean the cruiser collided with the planet while traveling through hyperspace, but could also mean, for instance, that the cruiser tried to enter hyperspace while within Pammant's gravity well and either failed or only momentarily succeeded before being forced back to realspace, the hyperdrive and/or engines were severely damaged, and the ship crashed into the planet in realspace; the fact that the term "rocketing" was used instead of "launching" or "jumping" or the like implies physical impact.

Here we have only one known indication in either Canon (pre-TLJ) or Legends of a hyperspace-related accident having any effect on a realspace object, where there is very little detail about what actually happened, the instance involved a damaged hyperdrive (and so might not have successfully jumped the Quaestor into hyperspace), and the instance was--as you pointed out--originally written by the same author who detailed hyperspace physics and presumably knew how hyperspace travel works. I'm not convinced that this portrayed or was intended to portray a ship hyperspacing into a planet.

Now, I could certainly accept that it was; continuity mistakes aren't uncommon, and after all we don't have a complete understanding of hyperspace physics and neither do they in-universe. But even if that's the case, it's a single example that goes against every other instance and explanation of hyperspace travel we have, such that while that incident occurring in a freak accident under specific circumstances may be plausible, being able to do that deliberately with no preparation or special hyperdrive modifications to carry out the Holdo Maneuver is very much not.

Today it occured to me that Last Jedi is totally a rehash of The Empire Strikes Back, despite what people have been saying to the contrary.

The Battle of Hoth was moved to the end.
The chase by the Super Star Destroyer was without asteroids.
Rey goes to see a reluctant master on an isolated rainy planet and goes into a Dark Side Cave.
Rey leaves said planet to face Kylo (despite the urging of her teacher, I believe to remember).
Trip to a super shiny and fancy planet that turns out to not be at all what they hoped.

It's history repeating itself, but with the important difference that Rey faces Kylo and wins.

...well, damn. I hadn't thought of equating Cloud City with the casino place, but yeah, there's some parallel there - including that they went there seeking an ally, and that ally wound up betraying them to the villains. The chase is a much vaguer connection to make, but still there to an extent. Dang, so, that means the only major scenes without some kind of parallel in TLJ are, what, "I am your father" and Han getting captured and frozen in carbonite? And the former is only barely averted by the decision to make Rey's parents nobodies.

They did a good job of changing enough things to not make the film look like a blatant rehash the way TFA was, but it really is more or less a remix of Empire, with the Throne Room scene from Return of the Jedi thrown in, isn't it?

Yeah, TLJ blatantly rehashes ESB and RotJ, it's just not as beat-for-beat as TFA was because it's interleaving two movies instead of copying one. I'm continually surprised that more people didn't notice that immediately while they were watching it (or worse, tries to argue to the contrary) 'cause it was nearly shot-for-shot in the throne room scene and the walkers-attack-Crait/Hoth scene.

In case you missed it before, I ranted wrote about that in detail before, upthread:

Spoiler: Plot Summary

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The movie opens with a bunch of Gallofree transports fleeing a Rebel Resistance base as a bunch of Imperial First Order Star Destroyers jump into the system, led by a Star Dreadnought Siege Dreadnaught.

The Rebels Resistance members narrowly escape with a rag-tag fleet, and the movie's protagonists split up. Luke Rey lands on Dagobah Ahch-To, a very rainy and remote planet not known to wider galactic society, where she asks Yoda Luke--a curmudgeonly old man living like a hermit in a little hut raising his own food--to train her, but he refuses because he feels Luke Rey is too reckless and undisciplined and because he doesn't want a repeat of the last time he helped train a powerful preteen Force-user, Anakin Skywalker Ben Solo, who was eventually seduced to the Dark Side by Palpatine Snoke. Luke Rey persists, and though she is ignored at first eventually the wise old Jedi Master relents.

We get a montage of the Jedi Master telling his pupil about the history of his Jedi Order, before it was destroyed. Detouring to a brief RotJ interlude, Obi-Wan Luke talks about how he couldn't redeem Anakin Ben, and Luke Rey says he's wrong:



Back to ESB, the Jedi Master shows his apprentice a hole in the ground with a powerful Dark Side presence, and the apprentice goes into the hole to face his her fears and insecurities. The movie gets a bit trippy, the apprentice faces great internal conflict, and slowly the face of Vader Rey's parents is revealed to be...his her own face!

Meanwhile, Luke Rey has a vision of Han and Leia Kylo on the far side of the galaxy, and feels that he she can save them if only she goes to them. She gets into a big argument with the Jedi Master about the vision and leaves to go meet up with them.


Back on the other side of the galaxy, Han and Leia Finn and Rose have snuck away from the main Rebel Resistance fleet in a beaten-up ship to go to the idyllic Cloud City Canto Bight, a neutral city in the current war known for gambling and fancy rich people stuff. They're searching for a top-class con man and smuggler, Lando Calrissian Maz Kanata's friend, to help them fix a little hyperspace problem. When they get there, the characters discover it isn't as idyllic as it seems, as beneath the surface the dirty work is done by Ugnaughts human slaves.

There, they run into Lando Maz Kanata's friend, are arrested by security forces, and are thrown into a jail cell together, where they have a conversation with Lando a different slicer for no particular reason who fills the same role; he offers help, they say they don't want it. In ESB Lando betrays them to the Empire first and then gives them access to a hyperdrive-capable ship and helps them escape, in TLJ he gives them access to a hyperdrive-capable ship and helps them escape first and then betrays them to the First Order, overall proving him less trustworthy than Han Finn originally thought. Oh, and their astromech buddy aids greatly in their escape with some novel tools and attachments.


Smash-cut to RotJ. Han and Leia Finn and Rose need to lead a small group into the Endor bunker Dreadnought to disable the device screwing over their fleet. To do so, they use an Imperial a First Order ship with a corresponding transponder, slip through the shields using some stolen codes--which an Imperial officer notices but lets go--and, surprise!, it's a trap, as they're surrounded by bad guys and captured. They escape thanks to timely intervention from their best buddy Chewie BB-8, who captures an AT-ST and starts shooting all the bad guys.

Luke Rey, meanwhile, has turned himself herself over to Vader Kylo Ren. They have a brief conversation on their way to see Palpatine Snoke, during which the Jedi claims there is still some good in the Dark Sider while the Dark Sider claims it is too late for him and the Jedi should join him instead (which is incredibly close dialogue-wise to the RotJ version). They walk out of the turbolift into a large throne room holding Palpatine Snoke on a throne surrounded by red-robed royal guards, with a small window looking out into space off to the side.

Palpatine Snoke taunts Luke Rey, takes off his her binders with the Force, and gloats about how he planted the seeds that caused everything to come to pass, how he will destroy the puny Rebellion, and how he will kill Luke Skywalker, complete with taking Luke's Rey's lightsaber and sticking it on the right arm of his throne and taunting the "Jedi Knight" about taking it back and striking him down. Luke Rey ends up helpless and weaponless before Vader Kylo while Palpatine Snoke assaults him her with Force powers, and in a shocking twist the Dark Side apprentice kills his master and the throne room starts disintegrating around them.


Smash-cut back to the start of ESB, where AT-ATs AT-M6s are attacking the secret Rebel base on Hoth Crait, a remote white planet with a base built into a mountain, complete with massive front door and secret back entrances. (To their credit, it's not a direct ripoff of the Hoth base visually, it's a ripoff of that and the ANH Yavin IV base.) Rebel Resistance soldiers dig trenches in front of the base with cylindrical anti-vehicle blaster cannons dotted along them, and the soldiers jump in, pointing their rifles toward the oncoming walkers as one of them looks at the walkers through macrobinoculars (in what is, again, almost shot-for-shot the opening of the ESB battle).

The walker slowly lumber forward until they get within range to destroy the shield generator front door while low-flying airspeeders that don't have the weapons to penetrate the walkers' armor fruitlessly distract them until they can come up with a crazy plan to take down the thing that will destroy the shield generator front door. Though the bad guys destroy their objective, the good guys escape to safety on the Millennium Falcon.

[Peelee]

Poe went from hotshot pilot to a caricature of a hot shot pilot.

I highly disagree. Poe started out as a caricature of a hotshot pilot.

[Blackhawk748]

I highly disagree. Poe started out as a caricature of a hotshot pilot.

Eh, that may be because of how little screen time he actually got in TFA. In any event TLJ Poe is strictly worse than TFA's

[Scowling Dragon]

But again Id say that this film was the best one we could possibly get. Failing in style as opposed to letting the flames of lies linger.

The biggest damage was done with the Soft Reboot in TFA after which its all downhill from there.

[Ronnocius]

I didn't like this movie.

Spoiler: Spoilers

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#1. Overall I thought it was ridiculous that a small amount of starfighters could destroy cruisers or capital ships.
#2. I really don't like Kylo Ren. First off, why is he even called Kylo Ren? Is this ever going to be explained? Nonetheless, Adam Driver is not intimidating at all. It is hard to move past the whining wannabe we saw in Episode VII.
#3. Snoke's death was not surprising at all, in fact it was very obvious what would happen. It makes sense given that Sith always betray their masters. I think it was ill placed because Snoke had hardly been shown. Also, it is really unfortunate that he wasn't some character from the Prequels (there were many good theories that would have worked perfectly).
#4. The main characters are not very interesting to me.
Rey: Not much to say, her detractors have already listed the reasons she is a poor character.
Finn: I don't have a huge issue with him if he was occasionally showed a personality. It seems like everyone is either always serious or always making really annoying jokes (cough cough Poe).
Poe: Poe seemed like a jerk to me. He doesn't follow orders, in fact he directly goes against them, and also stages a mutiny despite the fact he is obviously not remotely equipped to take control.
Vice Admiral: Her sacrifice didn't mean anything at all, 5 minutes of screen time doesn't endear a character to the audience, especially not yet another human in a universe filled with amazing aliens.
Rose: Sigh.... she honestly was just there to have an oh-so-sad backstory that nobody really cares about, and of course because there has to be an Asian somewhere (yay diversity!)
Kylo Ren: I don't understand why he even has a grudge against his parents and Luke... OK, Luke was planning to kill him, but there is no good explanation for the events leading up to this.
Yoda's Ghost: I hated this appearance by Yoda's ghost. Yoda was usually about giving advice and wisdom (sometimes obscure) to people that would lead them to make the right decision. Why is he now burning ancient lore and cackling like a madman?
I liked some of the characters, mostly the ones who didn't get any speaking lines or didn't speak often, like that alien rebel and the imperial naval officers.
#5. Chewbacca didn't really do anything, at least as far as I can remember. I feel like he would want to avenge Han's death or at least be somewhat helpful.
#6. Why did the destruction of a single planet completely destroy the Republic? Even in its infant stages the Republic shouldn't be so fragile. From my understanding the senate and leadership was on the planet, but it is very unrealistic to act like the entire Republic government and military was on a single planet.
4.5/10 wouldn't watch again.

[Peelee]

Eh, that may be because of how little screen time he actually got in TFA. In any event TLJ Poe is strictly worse than TFA's

In the little screen time he got (Poe sucks), he took out a bunch of fighters in as many seconds, with "now that's one hell of a pilot!" punctuating it.

Granted, I'm not at all saying he didn't get worse over time (Poe sucks). Like how an entire squadron is scrambled against him, her loses his weapons, all whole flying right up against a massive dreadnought, and he still manages to not die (Poe sucks) largely because they cut to BB-8 so the audience doesn't question how ridiculous this is. In addition, Poe is somehow always right, even when he's wrong. He's absolutely worse in this movie.

Also, Poe sucks.

[Dr.Samurai]

Also, Poe sucks.

I thought Poe was treated awfully in TLJ. I think I gravitate towards his character because he feels like the only character in the new trilogy that knows what he wants and acts on that to make it happen.

Everyone else feels like a haze of conflict or uncertainty, and I get bored watching people rehash **** all over again because they just can't figure it out. Here we are in the second movie and Rey still doesn't know what this "thing inside of her is" or what's happening to her. Finn still doesn't know if he wants to help the Resistance, Kylo still doesn't know what he wants to do, etc.

Poe is like "I want to defeat the First Order and save the Republic. Point me at 'em". And everyone gasps in horror, What? A person with purpose and a reason to be here? Someone with clarity and focus?? Oh god! Let's set him straight!

Excuse us for introducing a normal human being into the movie...

[Blackhawk748]

I thought Poe was treated awfully in TLJ. I think I gravitate towards his character because he feels like the only character in the new trilogy that knows what he wants and acts on that to make it happen.

Everyone else feels like a haze of conflict or uncertainty, and I get bored watching people rehash **** all over again because they just can't figure it out. Here we are in the second movie and Rey still doesn't know what this "thing inside of her is" or what's happening to her. Finn still doesn't know if he wants to help the Resistance, Kylo still doesn't know what he wants to do, etc.

Poe is like "I want to defeat the First Order and save the Republic. Point me at 'em". And everyone gasps in horror, What? A person with purpose and a reason to be here? Someone with clarity and focus?? Oh god! Let's set him straight!

Excuse us for introducing a normal human being into the movie...

This may be why im ok with Poe. I mean, he's not Wedge Antilles or Corran Horn, hell hes not even a Bror Jace, but he feels like an actual adult (albiet a hotheaded one) instead of a confused teenager.

Seriously, does Disney think their average audience member is a confused teenager or something?

[Scowling Dragon]

Seriously, does Disney think their average audience member is a confused teenager or something?

Bingo! We got a winner here!

Rey is what the Target demo wants to hear: Your important, you get power without much responsibility. You matter more then the past and fugget about it!
Your being constantly praised about how amazing and better then everybody in the past you are and being validated all the time.

[Peelee]

I thought Poe was treated awfully in TLJ. I think I gravitate towards his character because he feels like the only character in the new trilogy that knows what he wants and acts on that to make it happen.

Everyone else feels like a haze of conflict or uncertainty, and I get bored watching people rehash **** all over again because they just can't figure it out. Here we are in the second movie and Rey still doesn't know what this "thing inside of her is" or what's happening to her. Finn still doesn't know if he wants to help the Resistance, Kylo still doesn't know what he wants to do, etc.

Poe is like "I want to defeat the First Order and save the Republic. Point me at 'em". And everyone gasps in horror, What? A person with purpose and a reason to be here? Someone with clarity and focus?? Oh god! Let's set him straight!

Excuse us for introducing a normal human being into the movie...

Really? He refuses a direct order, which is a HUGE no-no for a military pilot, then in the middle of his dressing down, where Leia is trying to tell him there's more to a war than blowing things up, he leaves to go blow things up. In those exact words. He mutinies (again, HUGE THING here), and faces zero repercussions for said mutiny. The admiral he mutinies against even openly admires him. And then he mis-applies his lesson learned about wasting resources by wasting a bunch of resources (literally every non-main character in a speeder) by aborting his ridiculously bad plan after everyone is dead, then ordering Finn to break off when Finn is the only person who can actually completed the mission, especially after all the other resources are already wasted.

The movie trips over itself to faun over Poe. Where did you see the awful treatment? Was it the admiral gushing over the mutineer after he called her a traitor and a coward? Or when he undercut Leia's teaching moment to her face? How about when he plays the big damn hero who instantly figures out what Luke is doing AND how to get out of the cave? Oh, it's so unfair that he wasn't openly called Space Jesus, amiright?

[Blackhawk748]

Really? He refuses a direct order, which is a HUGE no-no for a military pilot, then in the middle of his dressing down, where Leia is trying to tell him there's more to a war than blowing things up, he leaves to go blow things up. In those exact words. He mutinies (again, HUGE THING here), and faces zero repercussions for said mutiny. The admiral he mutinies against even openly admires him. And then he mis-applies his lesson learned about wasting resources by wasting a bunch of resources (literally every non-main character in a speeder) by aborting his ridiculously bad plan after everyone is dead, then ordering Finn to break off when Finn is the only person who can actually completed the mission, especially after all the other resources are already wasted.

The movie trips over itself to faun over Poe. Where did you see the awful treatment? Was it the admiral gushing over the mutineer after he called her a traitor and a coward? Or when he undercut Leia's teaching moment to her face? How about when he plays the big damn hero who instantly figures out what Luke is doing AND how to get out of the cave? Oh, it's so unfair that he wasn't openly called Space Jesus, amiright?

Its the fact that they did all of those things with him in the first place.

[Peelee]

Its the fact that they did all of those things with him in the first place.

....so it's unfair that they made him the bestest pilot that's never wrong?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Blackhawk748]

....so it's unfair that they made him the bestest pilot that's never wrong?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

No, its unfair that we are shown Poe as a farily typical hotshot Ace (hello Top Gun) which then turns into him ignoring orders and staging a mutiny. Of the few glimpses we saw of him in TFA, he didnt seem like a flipping mutineer. Its like the movie wanted us to not like him, but then theyd back off and go "you should like him". Which one is it movie??

[Scowling Dragon]

No, its unfair that we are shown Poe as a farily typical hotshot Ace (hello Top Gun) which then turns into him ignoring orders and staging a mutiny. Of the few glimpses we saw of him in TFA, he didnt seem like a flipping mutineer. Its like the movie wanted us to not like him, but then theyd back off and go "you should like him". Which one is it movie??

Similar to what they did with Luke.

Man I would HATE to visit offscreentopia in the Sequel Trilogy. Everybody comes out and idiot and an ******* after it.

Maybe Offscreentopia is the real Nemesis then?