Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Occasional Sage]

Handy replies, thanks! I particularly like/hate the term "math-hammer".

* * *

Does a net -1 to hit rolls prevent Overwatch from having a chance? That sure seems to be the way the rules read; if not, please explain.

[Mystic Muse]

Handy replies, thanks! I particularly like/hate the term "math-hammer".

* * *

Does a net -1 to hit rolls prevent Overwatch from having a chance? That sure seems to be the way the rules read; if not, please explain.

Overwatch only hits on a 6 regardless of modifiers, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.

Modifiers come in after, and will affect things like plasma or exploding 6s, but any 6s will still be hits.

[Cheesegear]

You were doing so well right up to the point where you acknowledged that non-datasheet abilities & rules should impact the cost of models.

The problem is that Chaos Cultists are the only example I can think of where this has happened.
IMO, this is because there are simply so many abilities that can be stacked onto them.

However, the alternative to Cultists going up in points, should have been increasing the cost of Abaddon and all Chaos Marine Psykers (especially Daemon Princes, 180 Points is a rort) and declaring that Cultists are definitely not 'Veterans of the Long War'. They even nerfed Tide of Traitors to once per battle as well. I don't agree that Cultists should have gone up in points. I think T3 models with 6+ save are total garbage. However, I also know that GW is lazy, and don't actually understand the problem. Same as when they nerfed Conscripts, they failed to understand what the real problem was and thought that increasing the cost of Conscripts would solve it. The problem is non-Datasheet abilities. Change those, or increase the cost of Stratagems. Not points costs. Increasing the cost of Cultists didn't change ****.
...Except, as I said, for players who didn't understand the problem, to start becoming the problem, else pay extra points on their Cultists for no reason.

That...Or GW could apply the rule way more consistently than literally once.

I don't know if I have the CP to effectively use them, though. I've only got the one battalion, and I really only have enough models for 1000 points.

Assassins, then? They're getting a buff in March's White Dwarf.

Callidus
Eversor/Culexus
Eversor/Culexus

You could even take the -1 CP hit and just take the one.

Question: At 1000 points, how many smash captains is too many?

Probably just the 1? They're 124 Points, after all. At 2, you're looking at 250 Points out of 1000. Then because you'd need to make a Supreme Command, you'd pick up either Mephiston or Lemartes for almost 400 Points, in 1000 Points, tied up in 3 Characters where you don't even have the CPs to barely even use one.

...Yeah. Scratch that. I change my answer to Assassins.
Since the price point for Assassins is a joke, it also presents a bunch of fun conversion opportunities and theme-ing for your army... If you're into that.

More than 3. Rule of threee after all.

3? In 1000 Points? You don't see anything wrong with that?
There's no such thing as Rule of Three. When you call it that, you fall into the exact trap that you did.

Half of my group's Week 1 narrative/casual/escalation campaign games were invalidated because of that.

[Ornithologist]

More than 3. Rule of threee after all.

3? In 1000 Points? You don't see anything wrong with that?
There's no such thing as Rule of Three. When you call it that, you fall into the exact trap that you did.

Half of my group's Week 1 narrative/casual/escalation campaign games were invalidated because of that.

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough. My actual recomendation was one and a lib dread. That is playable in 1000 point list depending on what other models are available. Run it either as a patrol or a battailon for a total of 3/8 command points. At a lower point game like this, you don't actually need very many command points for him to be effective. In fact I have gone by in games with only useing one (on him) for the Death Co strat at the begining. ...

Though based on your meta, I am glad I don't play there. I'm the guy in my local meta who always jumps up to get a teaching game in with the person whose played exactly never. So I tend to build more fluffy lists with one or two competative elements to them, to show off just enough complexity to show off what the game can do. Goal number one of this kind of game for me is to get them having fun and feeling like they want to play a second time.


I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list? He said models were more going to be his limiting factor than anything else.

[YossarianLives]

Would anyone be willing to give me some feedback on an Imperial Guard list? Except, plot twist: I'm not trying to make it better, I'm actually worried its too powerful and is gonna mop the floor with my newbie friend.

In a couple weeks we're gonna play our first proper, in-person game with our respective armies (Guard and Tyranids) and while I'm really excited I don't want it to be a stomp. Neither of us are super competitive, but I've also had the time to build up a proper collection while he's only just got enough models to reach 1000 points.

Like I said, I'm not playing super competitively, so you don't need to tell me that my command squad load out is terrible, or that Cadian hellhounds are a bad idea.

Spoiler: The Lists

Show

Battalion Detachment: Imperial Guard, Cadian

Company Commander with the Laurels of Command = 30 points - (Warlord: Superior Tactical Training)

Primaris Psyker with laspistol and force staff = 46 points (smite, psychic barrier, nightshroud)

Tank Commander with executioner plasma cannon, 2 plasma cannons and heavy bolter = 185 points

Infantry Squad with flamer, x3 = 138 points

Infantry Squad = 40 points

Platoon Commander with laspistol and chainsword = 20 points

Command Squad, 1 veteran with regimental standard, 1 veteran with medi-pack, 1 veterans with lasgun, 1 veteran with plasma gun = 41 points

Leman Russ Tank with battle cannon and three heavy bolters = 168 points

Hellhound with inferno cannon and heavy flamer = 107 points

Patrol Detachment: Sycarus 9th Conservators, Stormtrooper Company (Militarum Tempestus Doctrine)

Tempestor Prime with command rod = 45 points

Lord Commissar = 35 points

5 Scions with 1 plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns, x2 = 144 points

999 points


I don't know my friend's exact list, but he's gonna be running hive fleet Jormungandr and bringing something along the lines of:
The Swarmlord
Tyranid Prime
Mawloc or Trygon
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Hormagaunts and Termagants

In case anyone is curious, we finally got around to playing that game. It went... not how I expected, especially since we both have no idea what we're doing. I managed to lose, mostly due to my own incompetence but also because my opponent really knew how to make an armour save. It took me three turns of focused fire from my entire gunline just to bring down the Swarmlord.

In retrospect I should have focused on his other stuff and played for objectives, rather than trying to bring down the big, tough, and slow monster. My Scions were also the MVPs. My opponent completely ignored them until the very end, by the end of the game they had probably single-handedly chewed through half his army.

Progress is slow, but learning to be better is fun!

[Meatgrinder]

I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list? He said models were more going to be his limiting factor than anything else.

Well, I've got Dark Imperium and Know no Fear right now. I can purchase a few things come March, which is why I was asking about the Custodes. My meta is also OK with me proxying poxwalkers and plague marines as guardsmen, though I probably don't want to abuse that (gotta have some friends).

[Cheesegear]

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough...

Oh? You were trying to say that 3 in 1000 Points would be unFun to play against?
If you're citing 'rule of three', then your list is illegal in 1000 Points.

I suppose the real question to ask Meatgrinder is what else he has available for a list?

He asked for a replacement for a Supreme Command Dawn Captains that costs less points than Dawn Captains.

Smash Captain
Smash Captain
Lemartes/Mephiston

However, that's still a lot of points in 1000 if your main Detachment is also Space Marines, hence my suggestion for Assassins.
A Patrol isn't a replacement for a Supreme Command... Unless you need Objective Secured... Then again, that's one of the things that makes Dawn Captains actually pretty good.

[Brookshw]

Gotcha, so smart-aleck answer doesn't read as joking enough.

Don't worry, some of us got the joke.

[Turalisj]

Don't worry, some of us got the joke.

Rule of 3 is rule of 2 at 1000pts.

[Corsair14]

Working on a new list since I want to paint Sons of Horus in their 30k scheme for a new project. Its primarily going to be used for 40k since actual 30k is a dead game in most areas since the switch to 8th removed most people's regular opponents. Most likely I am going to use chaos codex and use the Black Legion rules since I cant really find any real correlation with the SoH legion rules and any of the other 40k legion rules :/

While I am not going super competitive, I would like to win from time to time in a non-tourny environment so I will be using marks if just to represent X squad having veteran skills at doing whatever and allowing associated strats. Ie. A havoc squad with autocannons and having mark of Slaneesh for the endless cacophony strat.

I am avoiding daemons and the goofy looking dino-bots as the don't match the theme or in the case of dino-bots, not wasting money on something that looks that stupid. That and if FW ever decides it wants to make money again and upgrade 30k to whatever the current edition may be at the time, it needs to be able to almost seamlessly switch back and forth.

The theme I am going for is a veteran mechanized infantry list and here is where I am getting down to nuts and bolts.

Abbadon
2 of Some kind of captain/champion characters(likely an exalted champ and chaplain analogue)
3 Rhinos
1 Sicarian with two lascannon sponsons
1 Leviathan Twin grav

1 squad of Justaerin/chaos terminators(haven't figured out loadout or marks yet) Going to build 10 although using ten in a non large game is doubtful. They rock in 30k, just standard termies in 40k :(

1 Havoc squad with either missile launchers or autocannons <MoS>
1 Havoc squad with special weapons <MoS>

3 tactical squads. two full 10 man with 2 heavy bolters, 1 5 man with 2special weapons. All with MoS
<The two ten man squads have the job of taking objectives and with the new bolter rules and their own rules for shooting from legion and strats and their rhinos they should hold things fairly well. The five man team rides with the special weapon havocs in a rhino to take out bad things.>

1 9 man vet squad with melee weapons<MoK>
1 Land Raider or Spartan.(most likely a raider to carry the vets and a choppy character.)

1 Of the legion Whirlwinds with the cool missile launcher system whose name I cant remember but think starts with an S.

Note that I haven't pointed anything out and I wont be able to fit everything in 2500 points even with CA2018 helping. If I get the scheme where I like it I wont really care too much and will probably build it out to 3k anyway since that is my preferred point level. As it stands I have 90% of the models sitting around anyway mostly needing to be stripped. Now that I look at what I want, the only things I need to pick up are Abby, the Justaerins, the vets(reavers) and maybe some of the character models.

Not having played chaos since 5th edition for an all terminator NL Atramentar army(even then I used Space Wolf codex for the drop pods) what kind of loadouts and marks are working these days?

[Cheesegear]

While I am not going super competitive, I would like to win from time to time in a non-tourny environment...

...I am avoiding daemons and the goofy looking dino-bots as the don't match the theme or in the case of dino-bots, not wasting money on something that looks that stupid.

Those two statements don't really go together.

The theme I am going for is a veteran mechanized infantry list...

In 40K? ...You're in for a bad time.

Abbadon
2 of Some kind of captain/champion characters(likely an exalted champ and chaplain analogue)
3 Rhinos
1 Sicarian with two lascannon sponsons
1 Leviathan Twin grav

1 squad of Justaerin/chaos terminators(haven't figured out loadout or marks yet) Going to build 10 although using ten in a non large game is doubtful. They rock in 30k, just standard termies in 40k :(

1 Havoc squad with either missile launchers or autocannons <MoS>
1 Havoc squad with special weapons <MoS>

3 tactical squads. two full 10 man with 2 heavy bolters, 1 5 man with 2special weapons. All with MoS
<The two ten man squads have the job of taking objectives and with the new bolter rules and their own rules for shooting from legion and strats and their rhinos they should hold things fairly well. The five man team rides with the special weapon havocs in a rhino to take out bad things.

1 9 man vet squad with melee weapons<MoK>
1 Land Raider or Spartan.(most likely a raider to carry the vets and a choppy character.)

1 Of the legion Whirlwinds with the cool missile launcher system whose name I cant remember but think starts with an S.

Black Legion doesn't work in the current meta. As a 'First 4' Codex, GW didn't remove the to hit penalty for Assault weapons when you switch from Rapid Fire. GW also released the 'Bolter buff', which means losing Rapid Fire on your Marines is a terrible idea. Except for Cultists, because they don't have Bolt weapons. Although not even <Black Legion> Cultists like Advancing that much, because why take a to hit penalty, when you can Presience for +1 to hit, instead...And then shoot twice.

Abaddon is garbage without a Cultist/Tzaangor horde.
Dark Apostles are bad.
Exalted Champions are useful.

Chaos Marines, being 13 Point models with Boltguns...Are bad. Heavy Bolters don't work because GW forgot to give Chaos Marines access to Hellfire Shells. Daemon Shell is supposed to be the substitute. But they explicitly ruled that you can't re-roll to hit with it, and that's some bulls*. Plasma Guns would be good if half the meta didn't have -1 to hit. I mean...Plasma Guns are fine, but they're good when they Supercharge. Your other option is just 5-mans with Lascannons.

Chosen-with-Melee Weapons are just bad Khorne Berzerkers. Sure, Chosen can take proper Lightning Claws or Power Axes. But Berzerkers get Chainaxes for almost nothing, and can Fight twice, and then can Fight again at the end of the phase using the Stratagem.

Terminators are ****. The end. 'Advance and Shoot (with penalties)' doesn't mesh well with 'Terminator Combi-Bolters are Relentless.' either. But that just goes back to Black Legion not actually working properly, and then the 'Bolter buff' kicking them while they're down. Black Legion is Abaddon...Not much else. Hence some players taking the -1 CP just to get him, and then getting 2 CPs back. The rest of the army is...Other stuff. Like Tzaangors.

Havocs with 3 Autocannons and a Missile (Flakk Missile) do well.
Havocs with Plasma Guns have greatly fallen out of the meta. However they might come back into the meta after FAQ 3 in a few months when stacking negs to hit goes away.
Land Raiders are fine. However, same as their Codex counterparts, Land Raiders packing quad Lascannons are not Transports.

Leviathans are way better off with Butcher Cannons.
Sicarians are 'fine', IIRC.
Whirlwind Scorpiuses are great, IIRC.

Rhinos are the bad times. You're not Sororitas. Marines are too expensive to be in a Transport not contributing to the battle. Rhinos, in the Chaos Codex, are made almost completely redundant by <Alpha Legion>. Same as <Raven Guard> do in the Loyalist Codex. If you want to move up the board, do it before Turn 1 even starts, for 0 Points. Dominions don't even go in Vehicles anymore, at least, not after Turn 1 starts. 12" Move, get out on Turn 1. Never get back in. I'm sure that if Dominions could have a 9" Move before the game starts - like other Codecies - they wouldn't be taking Transports either.
...Also, Chaos Psykers get Warptime even if you aren't Alpha Legion. There's just no need for Rhinos.

It's also not lost on me that all the best things in your army, are Forge World. You'll get in trouble for that.

3k anyway since that is my preferred point level.

You get games at 3K?

what kind of loadouts and marks are working these days?

Not Black Legion Marines.
Pretty much anything that isn't in 30K.

...Everything you don't want.

Chaos Space Marines is an Astartes Codex, and that's bad. Except that Chaos Space Marines also has Cultists and <Daemon> units in it - and those are all the units that bring it out of the dumpster fire... Also they're a Faction that gets Knights. Renegade Knights, sure. But still Knights.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I wish I had time to post when I first saw it, because all I could think of is "Cheesegear is about to make you very sad, because all the things you like don't even hold up in casual play."

[Blackhawk748]

I wish I had time to post when I first saw it, because all I could think of is "Cheesegear is about to make you very sad, because all the things you like don't even hold up in casual play."

Its been a real problem for quite awhile. Hell, when was the last time Tactical Marines (and their chaos equivalents) were actually ok? I'm not talking topping tournaments (the Gladius did that) I just mean, functional as a choice.

[Cheesegear]

Hell, when was the last time Tactical Marines (and their chaos equivalents) were actually ok? I'm not talking topping tournaments (the Gladius did that) I just mean, functional as a choice.

Every single edition until 8th.

Power Armour meant something. The amount of spammable AP3 in the game was practically minimal. Marines would always get their save, no matter what. Being in cover was worse for Marines because why not move around the board when your Armour save is better than your Cover save? Now? Even AP-1 will pull a Marine into the 50% dead category, whilst AP-2 makes them sad face. The Cover mechanics in 8th Ed. force Marines to become a static army that doesn't move, because having that 2+ Save is just so important when your models are 13 Points each. If you don't move around the board, you can't score Objectives.

Boltguns meant something. Yes. Space Marines have always been outnumbered. But, when AP5 was a thing, every single shot that connected, meant a dead horde-type model. Being outnumbered was overshadowed by the fact that Marines could mow down hordes without retribution. 'Dies to Boltguns' was a massive concern. That's why T'au and Storm Troopers having 4+ Armour was such a huge deal. This is why Inquisitorial Acolytes walked around in Carapce Armour. 'Cause if you didn't? ...Die to Boltguns... And also Flamers.

Morale. ...And They Shall No Fear doesn't mean **** anymore. Almost every horde unit in the game has a way to ignore Morale, and the ones that don't? ...Insane Bravery.
I vaguely recall Chaos Marines being Fearless instead. Was that an Icon?

Objective Secured. Tactical Marines have always been outnumbered. But, fact is, Objective Secured countered each other, so that no-one got Objectives. We saw when this was amazing in the 'First 4' Codecies, all Marine Codecies, all having a form of Objective Secured. Just walking into a horde and taking their Objectives. When horde armies (i.e; Guardsmen) started getting Objective Secured as well, that was cool. But, unfortunately, when both players have ObSec, it defaults back to 'most models'. Which means that Marines were simply back on their Index footing, at least, as far as Objectives were concerned.
"Whoever has the most models and/or shots, has a greater chance of winning." It's a thing. It's even worse in the ITC where every unit is a Kill Point, so you just make your units as big as possible...Except you can only make big units, if they're cheap per model.

Lastly...Drop Pods. 'Nuff said.

[Brookshw]

Ignoring for a moment the alternative choices, why even take tacticals over assault marines? Aren't they the same points currently? Is the loadout options really that much more effective?

[Turalisj]

Because assault marines can't hold objectives.

[Blackhawk748]

Every single edition until 8th.

I thought Tacticals sucked in 7th outside of a Gladius? Or was that just the fact that I had access to s*** tons of Grav with my Kataphrons?

[Occasional Sage]

I need a rules citation. I keep hearing things like "infantry can't charge fliers" but looking through my core book doesn't turn up that rule.

Is this real? If so, where's the text?

[Forum Explorer]

I need a rules citation. I keep hearing things like "infantry can't charge fliers" but looking through my core book doesn't turn up that rule.

Is this real? If so, where's the text?

It's in the datasheet for most flyers. I can't remember exactly what it's called but it's basically -1 to hit from shooting, and only things with the fly keyword can charge them.

It's not universal though. Some flyers don't have that rule, or can swap to Hover mode where they lose it.

[Drasius]

Its been a real problem for quite awhile. Hell, when was the last time Tactical Marines (and their chaos equivalents) were actually ok? I'm not talking topping tournaments (the Gladius did that) I just mean, functional as a choice.

6th had Calgar and 60 tacticals in pods win a couple of tournaments for a while, but yeah, other than gladius, from about 6th onwards, tacs were a bit naff because cultists were just soo much cheaper for CSM and scouts got buffed to BS3. Despite what cheese misremembers, AP1/2/3 was pretty rampant and was often coupled with ignores cover (Helldrake, Ion Accelerator, Bladestorm, Plas/Grav etc) and then we started getting the multitude of mid/high str, high RoF, bad ap guns that gave zero fu...lgrims about your armour save because lol, make 40 saves nerd.

Up until 5th, IIRC, tacs were servicable for both spikey and non-spikey marines, though often overshadowed by other stuff, but not enough that you really begrudged taking them.

Every single edition until 8th.

Garbage.

Power Armour meant something. The amount of spammable AP3 in the game was practically minimal. Marines would always get their save, no matter what. Being in cover was worse for Marines because why not move around the board when your Armour save is better than your Cover save? Now? Even AP-1 will pull a Marine into the 50% dead category, whilst AP-2 makes them sad face. The Cover mechanics in 8th Ed. force Marines to become a static army that doesn't move, because having that 2+ Save is just so important when your models are 13 Points each. If you don't move around the board, you can't score Objectives.

MEQ statlines meant nothing the second the CSM dex was released. because heldrake did as heldrake wished. Remember the uproar that came with being able to consistantly just flat out delete a squad of marines? It never went away and GW only doubled down on the ease of availability of ap 1/2/3 weapons.

Boltguns meant something. Yes. Space Marines have always been outnumbered. But, when AP5 was a thing, every single shot that connected, meant a dead horde-type model. Being outnumbered was overshadowed by the fact that Marines could mow down hordes without retribution. 'Dies to Boltguns' was a massive concern. That's why T'au and Storm Troopers having 4+ Armour was such a huge deal. This is why Inquisitorial Acolytes walked around in Carapce Armour. 'Cause if you didn't? ...Die to Boltguns... And also Flamers.

And having literally every anti-infantry gun have ap5 made all hoarde armies an absolute joke, and AP5 meant not having a save outside cover at all, and as the power creep marched on, it also meant not having a save in cover either, because lol, everything with ignores cover baked in already came with ap5 as a minimum.

Morale. ...And They Shall No Fear doesn't mean **** anymore. Almost every horde unit in the game has a way to ignore Morale, and the ones that don't? ...Insane Bravery.
I vaguely recall Chaos Marines being Fearless instead. Was that an Icon?

Nothing different in 6/7th, if you weren't immune to morale, you were bottom tier. Everything good was immune or effectively immune. CSM could take a banner (Icon of Vengance) on the sarge (who could be sniped/focus fired out) at the cost of 20 points (immediately making CSM more expensive than regular marines). Cult units were all fearless though, but they were also all pretty overpriced except Plagues, who were only a little overpriced and could have 2x specials per 5.

Objective Secured. Tactical Marines have always been outnumbered. But, fact is, Objective Secured countered each other, so that no-one got Objectives. We saw when this was amazing in the 'First 4' Codecies, all Marine Codecies, all having a form of Objective Secured. Just walking into a horde and taking their Objectives. When horde armies (i.e; Guardsmen) started getting Objective Secured as well, that was cool. But, unfortunately, when both players have ObSec, it defaults back to 'most models'. Which means that Marines were simply back on their Index footing, at least, as far as Objectives were concerned.
"Whoever has the most models and/or shots, has a greater chance of winning." It's a thing. It's even worse in the ITC where every unit is a Kill Point, so you just make your units as big as possible...Except you can only make big units, if they're cheap per model.

Back when only troops could score, tacs were required to win instead of playing for a draw at best. Now it's gone full circle to an extent.

Lastly...Drop Pods. 'Nuff said.

Pods were pretty broken in 6th/7th, but that has very little to do with tacs (beyond being AV12 ObSec for 35 points).

[Corsair14]

Actually being casual and liking to win every now and then isn't mutually exclusive. Its just means not cheesing out the list with the latest and greatest combos especially when they go against army theme. I just like playing cool painted models and themed armies. Even better when it goes against the meta and is something people aren't ready for.

Starting to think now of Night Lords(even worse I know, but screw those over charged plasmas once a turn) and I have a conversion in my head for the Harkon model. Also have an old AC havoc squad painted up somewhere

2250-3k are my normal pointed games. That isn't common everywhere outside tournaments?

No one in my area cares about people using FW, its pretty common here.

So I am getting the vague impression that marines in power armor suck right now? :P

Perhaps I will turn the melee chosen into berserkers without all the khorne crap on them.

[bluntpencil]

Actually being casual and liking to win every now and then isn't mutually exclusive. Its just means not cheesing out the list with the latest and greatest combos especially when they go against army theme. I just like playing cool painted models and themed armies. Even better when it goes against the meta and is something people aren't ready for.

Starting to think now of Night Lords(even worse I know, but screw those over charged plasmas once a turn) and I have a conversion in my head for the Harkon model. Also have an old AC havoc squad painted up somewhere

2250-3k are my normal pointed games. That isn't common everywhere outside tournaments?

No one in my area cares about people using FW, its pretty common here.

So I am getting the vague impression that marines in power armor suck right now? :P

Perhaps I will turn the melee chosen into berserkers without all the khorne crap on them.

That sounds like my meta - we're not super competitive, but we often pick themes, and then try to be as successful as possible with that theme.

My Deathwatch Watch Company is doing well at the moment, largely due to mixed squads and storm bolter/storm shields being awesome. The Chaplain Dreadnoughts don't hurt, either, but I only chose them because Deathwatch is a bit weak when it comes to anti-armour.

My Tallarn Armoured Company? Not so great at the moment - I need more practice. At present, it's a Tank Commander (with Hammer of Sunderance, lascannon and heavy bolters), 6 Leman Russ Conquerors (3 heavy bolters each), and 3 Leman Russ Annihilators (3 heavy bolters each). They're supported by a Battalion with a Lord Commissar (Warlord, Master of Command), and a Company Commander with three basic infantry squads.

It's not bad, it's just much more vulnerable than I'm used to, after playing mixed Terminator/Deathwatch Veteran with Storm Shield squads.

[Cheesegear]

Actually being casual and liking to win every now and then isn't mutually exclusive.

Without knowing what your menta is exactly, it's impossible to know what you need to take to win, because I'm not going to know your opponents.
What I do know for certain is the following, even in the casual environment; Rhinos and Terminators are bad.

Maybe you're in a Marine-meta, where everyone plays either Space Marines or Chaos Marines 'cause everyone is stuck in the bad times. Maybe you can run Chaos Marine squads. But the instant your opponents start outnumbering you three or four-to-one (which is entirely possibly 'cause you've brought pointless Rhinos and bad Terminators), then you've significantly increased your chance of losing, just by taking expensive models that don't do anything.

I just like playing cool painted models and themed armies. Even better when it goes against the meta and is something people aren't ready for.

So does everyone. Except that's not what you have. You don't have good models. You might have a strong theme. But there's a really good chance that you'll lose every single game you play if your opponents are even slightly on the ball. If your opponents are bringing Knights. If your opponents are bringing more than...Two...Psykers. If your opponents are spamming Mortal Wounds. If your opponents are stacking Plasma or Grav (because Marine meta). There are so many obvious counters to T4, 3+ in the current meta.

If everyone in your meta is just porting over their 30K lists, sure. Everyone's going to be equally bad.

But I have a hard time believing that you'll be able to deal with even the most casual of Aeldari armies, where everything has -1 to hit, and <Fly> to Fall Back and shoot when required.
I have a hard time believing that you'll be able to deal with anyone that brings 60 Infantry to the table.

Your army doesn't go against the meta. The meta, is currently hordes and Knights. If you're talking about the 'counter-meta', then everything you own needs to be packing Combi-Bolters, Heavy Bolters, and you need to be making liberal use of massive amounts of shots (e.g; Cultists), abusing Veterans of the Long War, and bringing whatever you can that can Deny the Witch.

This, is the Counter-Meta.

Spoiler

Show

Bloody Rose, Brigade
(W) Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Sword
Missionary

Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Battle Sisters (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Arco-Flagellants (x6)
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Celestians (x5); Storm Bolters (x2), Storm Bolter & Power Maul
Dialogus

Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Dominions (x5); Storm Bolters (x4), Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword
Retributors (x5); Heavy Bolters (x4); Boltgun & Chainsword

Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)
Sororitas Rhino; Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolters (x2)

Ebon Chalice, Supreme Command
Celestine
Canoness; Storm Bolter, Power Maul
Missionary

Imagifier

Blood Angels, Supreme Command
Librarian Dreadnought
Captain with Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Tycho the Lost

Total: ~2000 Points

...There's no combos (except for Brazier). No-one expects that many models in Power Armour, with that amount of firepower, with that level of Deny the Witch. That list is bonkers, and it's not even that good. It's Catachans in Power Armour, where every unit has First Rank Fire! on at all times.

That's the curveball list. Everyone saying 'Sororitas are garbage'. Except for the fact that it's 9 Point models with Storm Bolters attached. The other important thing is that the Second Sororitas Index was new. Nobody saw that coming. Just like nobody saw Ork lists with 100 Gretchin, and 100 Boyz, with points left over for even more toys.

So. Okay. The Chaos Codex isn't new - neither are its Allies. Every 'trick' that can be thought of, has pretty much been thought of. To 'change the meta', you're going to need a new Codex to ally with, or another major update has to be made to game where Chaos Marines excel at using a particular trick. Do Chaos Marines have access to Guilliman? No.

What is it, that separates the Chaos Marine Codex, from other Codecies? What 'tricks' do Chaos Marines have? I'm not even talking about 'the best combos', I'm asking...Why play Chaos Marines in the first place? What is it that makes them good on the table, worth playing? Here's a hint...It's not models in Power Armour.

More importantly...

What is it that makes you believe that you even can win? What units do you think are good? Why?

Some time back, I wrote that list. I stand by it. The only thing missing from that is 'disproportionate amount of shots'. Because...Disproportionate to what? A Skitarii Vanguard has 3 shots, a Storm Bolter has 4 shots. How many points is your model? How many points is your opponents model? Point is, that's not quite something I can calculate properly because it depends on your opponent (but I'm also pretty sure that if you're paying <3 Points per shot, per model, you're on the money). But everything else, I stand by probably 90% of the time.

2250-3k are my normal pointed games. That isn't common everywhere outside tournaments?

Barring special occaisions, I've rarely played games over 2000 Points. I'm pretty sure that anyone who doesn't play 30K will be the same.

So I am getting the vague impression that marines in power armor suck right now? :P

If you're getting a vague impression. I'm sorry I haven't been clear enough.
You should have a fair certainty.

Perhaps I will turn the melee chosen into berserkers without all the khorne crap on them.

Fine with everyone I know who does. Berzerkers look garbage.

[Requizen]

Played some Arena yesterday! Necrons vs Nids. While I won't go into too much detail over the games (they were pretty dragged out due to checking rules), I will say I quite like the game itself. The tight corridors make for a very different experience - depending on which board/mission you play, you might not even be able to shoot anything on T1, and it only goes 4 rounds. There's a lot more thought into movement around the board and navigating the space is just as important as target priority.

The tighter spaces and general spread of objectives I think means that heavy shooting will suffer a bit overall, you can rarely if ever get 8 Plasma Guns or 4 Frag Cannons to bear at the same time. Melee feels extremely important (my Flayed Ones did work, though nothing has that great of a save in Nids) as charging around corners and fighting in the appropriate spaces is super important. It's very different than regular Kill Team where you can bring most of if not the entirety of your army to shoot with some penalties, the walls are basically another enemy to both players.

Not without it's downsides, though. I can already tell armies that are heavy on chaff will still be quite dominant. Because the Objectives are often not out in the open, being able to leave a Termagant, Cultist, or chump Guardsmen behind while moving forward with your strong units is going to be key, and armies with no cheap units to sit back and hold objectives will be forced to play very close games. Grey Knights in particular will have issues, since they're never more than 5, and if one guy is forced to sit back and hold an objective they can really suffer from being outnumbered and out gunned.

I think the key going forward will be some (but not all) of the stuff that's already good in Kill Team, cranked up a bit. Flamers, especially any better than "regular flamers", will reign supreme, as will fast melee. I think I'm eyeing up Space Marines, and I think Scouts with Shotguns are going to be an invaluable addition to the team.

[LansXero]

"Catachans in Power Armour" Sororitas are garbage

QFT. Well, at least it feels that way for me. Even more so because the army is ridiculously expensive if you dont have it already, and right before a new plastic release. So why bother?

[Requizen]

About 9 hours til the LVO preview panel, any bets as to what we'll see?

So now with GSC, 40k is completely through Codexes for existing armies (excluding things like Ynnari and Inquisition), with only Sisters of Battle to come. While we know they're next on the docket, and likely we'll see a unit or two of them shown off, do you think there'll be anything else on the docket for 40k? I suppose the next likely thing is some sort of CSM or general Chaos release coming up with the Vigilus story going on and the looming discussion of Haarken trying to take the world for Abbadon, so a new Abbadon model with some of the older sculpts remade might be a good bet.

The long shot is still another returning Primarch. With 2 Chaos and 1 Imperial out, I still have some hope that we'll see Leman Russ, Corax, or Vulkan released, though rumors of Fulgrim and/or Angron have been going around for a long time. Maybe a double release?

[Forum Explorer]

Actually being casual and liking to win every now and then isn't mutually exclusive. Its just means not cheesing out the list with the latest and greatest combos especially when they go against army theme. I just like playing cool painted models and themed armies. Even better when it goes against the meta and is something people aren't ready for.

Starting to think now of Night Lords(even worse I know, but screw those over charged plasmas once a turn) and I have a conversion in my head for the Harkon model. Also have an old AC havoc squad painted up somewhere

2250-3k are my normal pointed games. That isn't common everywhere outside tournaments?

No one in my area cares about people using FW, its pretty common here.

So I am getting the vague impression that marines in power armor suck right now? :P

Perhaps I will turn the melee chosen into berserkers without all the khorne crap on them.

Average point cost in my meta is 2000 points. Sometimes a bit less.

Now only you can say how casual your meta is. As in post the lists of some of your opponents. That'll give us a clue on how much you can just take a bunch of power armor marines.

But I have a hard time believing that you'll be able to deal with even the most casual of Aeldari armies, where everything has -1 to hit, and <Fly> to Fall Back and shoot when required.
I have a hard time believing that you'll be able to deal with anyone that brings 60 Infantry to the table.

See, now that's not true. A casual Aeldari list doesn't necessarily have -1 on everything. One thing can always have it with Lightning Reflexes, but other then that, you can make lots of lists that have almost no penalties to hit in the list at all.

[LansXero]

See, now that's not true. A casual Aeldari list doesn't necessarily have -1 on everything. One thing can always have it with Lightning Reflexes, but other then that, you can make lots of lists that have almost no penalties to hit in the list at all.

Lets see, what kind of Aeldari list would be casual enough to get taken down by CSM without Daemons, ft. Rhinos & Terminators:

- Anything with Dark Reapers and/or Hemlocks is straight out. CSM would get shot out of the table in pieces before doing much of anything.
- Fire prisms can core Rhinos like they dont matter, and turn marines into slag.
- That list cant stand to a Shining Spear charge either, although the termies could bog them down. Spears will probably lose if they get stuck in CC, but then what is the rest of the list doing?
- Guardians can drown them in bodies and the lucky bladestorm makes marines dead. While also being more mobile.
- Wraithblades can walk through them without much effort really.

So, unless you were trying to intentionally build a bad list, I dont see how the proposed CSM list can have better than a 30% chance, and thats counting their having good rolls vs the eldar having bad rolls.

[Forum Explorer]

Lets see, what kind of Aeldari list would be casual enough to get taken down by CSM without Daemons, ft. Rhinos & Terminators:

- Anything with Dark Reapers and/or Hemlocks is straight out. CSM would get shot out of the table in pieces before doing much of anything.
- Fire prisms can core Rhinos like they dont matter, and turn marines into slag.
- That list cant stand to a Shining Spear charge either, although the termies could bog them down. Spears will probably lose if they get stuck in CC, but then what is the rest of the list doing?
- Guardians can drown them in bodies and the lucky bladestorm makes marines dead. While also being more mobile.
- Wraithblades can walk through them without much effort really.

So, unless you were trying to intentionally build a bad list, I dont see how the proposed CSM list can have better than a 30% chance, and thats counting their having good rolls vs the eldar having bad rolls.

Well it's a weak list, even for CSM. Rhinos are a trap. It's 216 points being thrown away to prevent your own Marines from shooting. The only reason to take Rhino's is to protect a unit of Berserkers, and really you're better off just Warp Timing them forward instead.

[Cheesegear]

Well it's a weak list, even for CSM.

Oh good. I'm just being harsh. Not wrong.
I'll take it.