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2008-09-21, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
LOL! Unlike Ansom, who follow the Dilbert Principle!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_PrincipleLast edited by Miklus; 2008-09-21 at 04:43 PM.
Bad to the Bone!
Miko Miyazaki : Strip #120 - #464 : R.I.P.
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2008-09-21, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
As I expected, the idea that the entire thing was an illusion has been completely discredited. It WAS an ambush after all, as I said. I anticipate getting my other predictions to be shown as being correct in the near future because I don't need elaborate theories to make a go of what I come up with. As Pclips said, he's just trying to tell a story, not come up with wacky weird stuff to keep you unable to guess where everything is going.
Good page overall.Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-21 at 04:54 PM.
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2008-09-21, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
There was one good reason to suspect a trick. Since the end of the story is getting nigh, it seems appropriate that Stanley should either die or return to Gobwin Knob. Having him settle at Faq seems anti-climactic, but having him die at this moment would end Parson's plan unsatisfactorily. Perhaps Stanley will die after virtually all of Parson's plan is complete, but there is still the issue of what to do about Charlie. It seems doubtful that Parson can resist the mercenary Overlord after grinding his forces down against Ansom unless he gets the Tool's air force back home.
Looking for a way to make that happen, some of us seized upon a possible Jack Snipe trick.Last edited by Vreejack; 2008-09-21 at 05:10 PM.
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2008-09-21, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
They're gonna have a song fight? Bad luck, KISS rules.
Last edited by the_tick_rules; 2008-09-21 at 05:26 PM.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2008-09-21, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Dance fight. Switchblades versus dragon boots.
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2008-09-21, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Interesting that Jillian seems to be sitting this one out. That suggests that Stanley will get the better of the vampires, in order to allow a confrontation between him, Jillian, and Jack.
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2008-09-21, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Right behind you...
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2008-09-21, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
It looks like she's about dead center of the group in front of Stanley on the previous page (as small as the individual figures are, the figure riding a gwiffon and waving a big sword is visible). She just didn't appear in any of the closeup views on the current page, is all.
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2008-09-21, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Of course they could not have a confrontation, if Jillian dies here and now from a dragon swipe, or bolt of lighting, she is out of the picture. There are 29 dragons thats four to one for the group that is about to get hit. There are no real certainty that anyone will survive this battle, except Parson, and perhaps the tool by extension. I said Sizemore wasn't going to die now, but I just meant the Webinar vs. Sizemore battle, he may still be swarmed by other stacks. Same for pretty much everyone fighting right now, and everyone in GK.
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2008-09-21, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
One line from this comic which I'm surprised no one else has bothered to pick up on/speculate about:
Get Wanda ready
*So* what is he up to? If his command *is* a reaction to what's happening in the tunnels then my first guess is that, as well as sending in the knights, he's also going to send Wanda down to the tunnels to uncroak some Jetstone units, so that Sizemore has a better chance of winning that crucial encounter. As a gamer it makes sense to me as that's the only active theatre (zone) at the moment, *but* we've had no indication that this is part of the plan. All we know is that PG's plan "needs" Wanda this turn. Up 'til now the assumption (on my part at least) was that was to do with his newly uncroaked airforce.
Of course that nugget came (IIRC) before Charlie showed up in GK's airspace with enough Archons to take the garrison, & I'd be surprised if Wanda's airforce was enough to drive them off. So that leaves the question, just, what exactly is PG up to? what is he planning for Wanda to do, that *will* turn the tide?
Personally I don't buy all these theories about Stanley getting back to GK before Charlie's next turn, not saying it *couldn't* happen, just that it seems unlikely given what we know so far about distances and travel times. *shrug*
So that leaves the question, *how* can GK stand 'til it's next turn without a virtual miracle? Ansom is at the walls, and will take them unless PG stacks his defence there, *but* Charlie is already in control of GK's airspace which means, on his turn, he'll be able to attack the garrison directly.
The only thing that stopped Charlie taking the GK garrison last turn was the possibility that PG *might* capture the pliers from Ansom this turn, & curiousity about exactly what PG was planning that might stop the jetstone alliance, it had nothing (or little) to do with the strength of GK's forces.
So, even if GK inflicts enough damage on Jetstone this turn to make a JS assault unviable on their next turn, PG still needs a way of reinforcing his garrison to the extent that Charlie won't just amble in on his turn.
This makes me think that PG *has* to almost give up on the walls (I suspect the plan is to discourage JS's attack by inflicting massive demoralising damage this turn) and retreat everything he can (including forces raised by Wanda this turn) to the garrison before Charlie's go, just to counter the threat of Charlie walking straight into the garrison on his next turn, after both GK & JS have been weakened.
*shrug* just my thoughts atm, interested to hear feedback if anyone cares to offer it, but *very* interested to see how thing turn out (which I guess is just a sign of how well the comic has built the drama so far :) )
Incidently, I *did* like this strip, and recognise it as a tension builder before the big fight, but, DAMN! I was hoping to get some answers in this one, rather than more build up. Sure it will be worth it in the long run, but the thought of having to wait at least a few more days to see how it all plays out is bugging the boop out of me!
Damn you Rob and Jami for being so darn good! ;)
As far as the Stanley/transylvito fight goes: I'm curious, does anyone recall whether a stack needs an embedded leader to avoid *having* to engage, or whether it just needs a faction warlord to be in the same hex? I suspect it'll be made very clear very, very soon, but don't recall whether it's been specifically clarified thus far?
Whichever way this works I'm guessing that Stanley *will* punch through, IMHO it fits the drama better, especially given what's going on at GK this turn, &, at the end of the day I think this comic is more about spinning a good yarn than sticking exactly to some woolly, loosely defined game mechanics, at least I hope so! ;)
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2008-09-21, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Oh, Parson has needed Wanda since before she uncroaked an Archon and a few Pegataurs. In addition to possible uncroaking of additional units, she's also the ultimate warlord for purposes of leading the uncroaked. Parson needs his units to have all of the bonuses they can get, that's why he has Sizemore down there with the golems.
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2008-09-21, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Well its not just Wanda maybe uncroaking some Jetstone units down in the tunnels to provide Sizemore with some (comparitively minor) reinforcements that we're talking about here- she may very well also be providing her humongous bonus while commanding uncwoaked units to augment his defense as well. We dont know enough to know if warlord or caster bonuses stack or not, but, especially for casters, they might, and since her bonus is strongly suggested to be even bigger than Sizemores that would be some serious oomph down there. Even if they dont stack its still a bigger bonus than Sizemores which has gotta help, and if she can heal her undead like Sizemore can heal his golems, then... We didnt actually know that Sizemore could heal his golems before this strip, did we? Wanda likely has a similar (but different) unrevealed undead-augmenting/assisting croakamancy ability for her undead.
I'm still thinking her part *may* be elsewhere in this turns battle, although thats by no means certain. It may just be that Parsons 60% chance of survival is due to being able to concentrate his forces on the walls for the next Jetstone turn, due to the tunnels being effectively destroyed as a Jetstone attack option this turn, in which case she's free to run amok, and, more importantly, expend her budgeted caster energy in the tunnel battle now. We shall see. :)\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-21, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
*looks upwards*
But what about Charlie? In PG's shoes I'd *hate* to have to rely on Charlie's continued goodwill/curiousity/greed for the wellbeing of my garrison. Sure, he's demonstrated that he can be put off with talk, at least for a while, but *I* wouldn't want to rely on that for the survival of my side.
Assuming, through Wanda's actions, that GK can end this turn with enough force to stop charlie just waltzing into the garrison, *surely* that's what PG *has* to do, even if it means risking loosing the walls to JS?
OTOH, if there's just no stopping charlie whatever, & it just comes down to trusting/stalling him, then you might as well stack the walls and tunnels *shrug* Personally though, as a gamer, if it gets to the stage where I *have* to trust another player, especially a mercenary booper like charlie, I'd already consider that I'm booped and that it's just a matter of practicing my defensive strategies until the end comes.
Is Parson winging it cos that's his only option, or does he have a plan for dealing with charlie? (& by that I mean one that's more solid than hoping that his mad (AFAHK) foolamancer persuades the tool to return in time)
EDIT:
Well its not just Wanda maybe uncroaking some Jetstone units down in the tunnels to provide Sizemore with some (comparitively minor) reinforcements that we're talking about here- she may very well also be providing her humongous bonus while commanding uncwoaked units to augment his defense as well. We dont know enough to know if warlord or caster bonuses stack or not, but, especially for casters, they might, and since her bonus is strongly suggested to be even bigger than Sizemores that would be some serious oomph down there. Even if they dont stack its still a bigger bonus than Sizemores which has gotta help, and if she can heal her undead like Sizemore can heal his golems, then... We didnt actually know that Sizemore could heal his golems before this strip, did we? Wanda likely has a similar (but different) unrevealed undead-augmenting/assisting croakamancy ability for her undead.Last edited by HPV; 2008-09-21 at 08:31 PM.
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2008-09-21, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Any warlord in the combat hex is sufficient to control the engage/dont engage function. There is no such thing, as best we can tell, as multiple stacks in a single mega-hex, although its possible that a large stack may break down into multiple smaller stacks for the "within-a-megahex combat system.
Proof- none of the wounded dwagons over the lake were not forced to engage even though there were more than 8 (what some people perceive as the stack size limit) dwagons per GK warlord present. Eight is NOT the limit on stack size, it is MERELY end of the combat bonus for stack size, in a game system where the combat bonus is more important than modest differences in stack strengths. Proof- the strong tendency to stack units in groups of eight rather than go for a better combat table by adding enough units to get 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, etc odds by adding more units to the stack. In many wargames you can fight the enemy just as effectively at 1 to 1 odds with a +1 combat bonus, as you can by going to the trouble of amassing 2 to 1 odds with no bonus.
There clearly is SOME benefit to having extra raw power in your stacks that can outweigh an opposing combat bonus however. Jillian was captured by only 5 dwagons despite her huge bonus, so bonuses arent everything. We just dont know if its because the 6 Orlys and 1 gwiffon she had with her are such piddly combat units and the dwagons so strong (we havent seen any of their stats yet, have we?) that the dwagons had sufficient combat odds on their side to outweigh her bonus, or if its some variant of a cap on how much damage you can do based on the strength of your units, regardless of bonuses, and thats why Jillians weak stack was only able to kill 1 dwagon before they got to attack back and wipe her stack out. Again, we lack sufficient details to judge. Hopefully we will learn more about the specifics of combat resolution in coming strips/klogs. :)\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-21, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Actually, there are several examples indicating that a hex can contain multiple stacks:
"Okay, near hex, second stack is where we start."
"Weak stack first!"
"Merge Phat-Singh and Manpower's stacks."
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2008-09-21, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
What's Wanda doing? Well, if Parson is being innovative in using one caster (Sizemore) as a warlord, then he will probably use another. Especially since he has only a few decaying regular warlords left to him. Oh, and way back to strip number 3:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0003.html
A full regiment- no seige, so Tool intended it for defense all the time. And that Regiment needs a Colonel...
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2008-09-21, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
I said- "although its possible that a large stack may break down into multiple smaller stacks for the "within-a-megahex combat system.". Those examples you gave are all part of the "within a megahex" combat system, for all meaningful intents and purposes. Its some variant of the Titan system. A player may have units stacked in a hex with clear mental ideas of how the big stack breaks down into smaller stacks for combat or closer to its objective, but its still one big stack really till it does, as suggested by the extra dwagons not being forced to autoattack.
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-21, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-21, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
No, Parson clearly states that you need a warlord within the stack and, as SteveMB has pointed, there is plenty of evidence for multiple stacks existing inside the same combat hex.
What we are not aware of is the biggest possible size for a stack. If there is a tactical grid within the hex, there may be a physical limit on the size of a stack.
Well, Ansom was afraid to push through an hex with only 6 healthy dwagons.
We really don't know much about in hex combat. We haven't seen yet a full scale battle. Up to know GK has only invested relatively few units in each attack. Hexes are huge and I don't believe you can control all of it with a single stack (at least a non-flying one).Last edited by teratorn; 2008-09-21 at 09:25 PM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-09-21, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
The group of wounded dwagons had three uncroaked warlords. The "Merge Phat-Singh and Manpower's stacks." comment would seem to suggest that they were formed up into three stacks, one per warlord (each stack has a warlord, so none of them are forced to autoattack).
Ansom's main issue was that he didn't want to write off the remaining siege units. That said, Vinny's "We'd make it. I think." comment suggests that Ansom, Vinny, and Vinny's bats against six unled dwagons would be a fairly close battle.Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-21 at 09:33 PM.
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2008-09-21, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Originally Posted by SteveMB
And if the best Ansom and Vinny can do against dwagons with three to one odds, is not die painfully... I don't see a victory...
Originally Posted by HPV
A air force to match the dwagons, without any counter-airforce, gets almost completely wiped out, by magic. The tunnel force goes in gets massacared magic. So what will the coalition do attack the walls?!? Yeah, we know that would be a good move, but the coalition...
all they know is GK just stomped two attacks with their magic, and the garrison hasn't even been touched. I don't see an attack after a tunnel massacare, PG wins if he wins the tunnels.
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2008-09-21, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
Sorry, let me rephrase that "any warlord in the combat hex" to "any warlord in the megahex where combat is possible" for better clarity. It is my opinion that, just as in many wargames, combat conditions do not apply and units do not need to be deployed for combat until and unless combat is actually joined, for whatever reason.
The Total War videogame series is the most obvious current example of this- you have whatever armies you have in the area of potential combat all stacked up into one big heap. When you meet the enemy you do not have to deploy them onto the field of battle before deciding whether or not you wish to engage the enemy. You can chose to flee instead if you wish, without ever deploying your army. But the moment you chose to engage you deploy your troops onto the battlefield and your enemy launches their attack. Chosing not to engage is just the Erfworld version of this. Until your units are forced onto the combat minimap theyre all just one big blob o' armed guys. How stacks on the combat minimap work with regard to warlord bonuses remains a mystery.
SteveMB-
"Pushing through 6 dwagons"- I dont think that meant that it would have been a close battle if fought straight up- I think that means they could have used the bats to keep the dwagons away from them long enough to run off the far side of the combat minimap and escape, but it was risky, and the bats might not have lasted long enough to prevent the dwagons chasing down one or more of the warlords before they could flee the map, and as Jillians experience shows, a dwagon can beat a warlord when it gets its turn to attack.
"Formed into three stacks"- its possible, but I cant see why it would be so in any kind of way that bound you to that once combat was initiated. If that were the case then you would effectively be able to see the enemy deployment before deciding whether or not to engage, and could make use of that. There has been no indications of any such considerations in Erfworld so far, so I'm inclined to say they dont exist.
Stanleys breakthrough should tell us more about it. According to some, each stack in the combat minimap is an independant stack, and his bonus only applies to the stack he's with. Thus if Stanley goes forward in one big stack in order to keep all his dwagons under control and bonused then he should be vulnerable to raw swarming by massed bats and concentrated warlord fire, and we've seen that at least the better warlords can 1-shot a dwagon, and Stanley doesnt have enough dwagons to last long. Transylvito has at least 3 warlords capable of that in the fight, and probably more.
If he spreads out then the outside stacks go out of command and unbonused and should be easy meat to warlord bonused bat swarms which are a heckuva lot larger and more robust than Jillians Orly group was when she got captured, and she took out a dwagon in that.
If, on the other hand, Stanleys bonus applies to everything in the megahex, then dwagon stacks forming to deal with the flanking bats etc may well last long enough and do enough damage to be a viable delaying tactic while Stanleys personal stack blasts through the front.
We will see, shortly. :)\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-21, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
You know, if I had uncroaked flying units and Wanda in the situation Parson is in right now, I might just do something unexpected like send her over to strike some more siege stacks.
Now, going back to Klog 11 there was something interesting I noted. Parson is using Charlie. . . totally.
Parson needs to keep the Garrison alive. The Garrison requires one of three zones to fall. We are seeing the tunnel action right now and I think it is a safe bet to say that Parson is going to keep it strong. Then there is the outer wall that needs to be breached. This is why I'd take my aerial units after the siege.
Now you are probably wondering why I'd put my aerial units into harm's way to stop the siege. Well, if Parson can do enough damage to the siege, Ansom won't be able to breach the outer walls. That means that Ansom cannot attack the garrison without going into the tunnels or. . .
Okay, now you must be wondering why I haven't mentioned the aerial zone. Why can't Ansom send in his aerial units and start attacking the garrison that way? Simple. The Klog states you need total control of the zone before you can attack the garrison. And as it happens, Charlie has a butt load of archons there.
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2008-09-21, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-21, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 123, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 111
I cannot guess whether or not Stanley will eventually go back (not enough information) BUT those that subscibed to this baseless speculation dismissed the more compelling evidence. Examples, Jami essentially told us that it was wrong, Jillian's group was set up at the pass, Stanley was at the pass, Jillian was clearly in the tenth pannel and not the eleventh, veiling can only be effectively done at the end of turn...
And it was a majority who was thinking along these lines, hardly a few. I'm not going to do a bunch of gloating though. I made several observations about this, if each of these seemingly minority opinions is proven (as I am confident they will be), then that will give me cred that my minimalist ideas of no big suprises will be confirmed.
Maybe I should keep a list. I don't mind putting my ability of analyses on the line. Either I got certain portions of this storyline figured out or I don't.
List:
-Not an illusion.Check
-Assuming the tiny figures on page 122 are all warlords, there are 12 vamp warlords. That's kind of a lame one actually... I mean, I'm completely covering myself either way. Oh well, point is, I take this page as being more potentially significant then the previous one that only showed 11 vamp Warlords.
-You can ambush when you have Warlords.Check.
- The Vamp Chief is worried about the foolmancer not for the ambush but for hiding Stanley after he breaks out of the ambush.
- Stanly will not be able to make it to FAQ or if he can make it will not be able to ressurect FAQ this turn.
-If Jack attempts at some point to make Stanley go back to GK, it will not be through magical trickery during this battle.
-Wanda cannot be the predicamancer unless there is some sort of foreshadowing that states that a caster can change their primary profession, which there has not been (managing other magics at an amateur level is not the same).
- Assuming it is not Wanda, the actual predicamancer was killed at Gobwin Knob when the Gobwins took over. It's possible she went into hiding as well and may appear at an opportune moment.
-No member of Gobwin Knob that we currently know about is controling Stanley through magical means, except, possibly, the arkenhammer.
Earliest prediction that I recall making:
Stanly's side is the evil one.Check. There are some interesting suprises and with the nobility hatres of commoners as overlords it could have gone the other way but Stanley is plainly the aggressor.Last edited by tomaO2; 2008-09-22 at 12:02 AM.