Caster power level

[Olibarro]

There's a lot of mention in other threads about how hugely powerful the casters are, including suggestions that they are maybe overpowered. My personal guess is that they only seem that way, because they are currently in the hands of the Ultimate Warlord.

We have seen that costs pertaining to any given unit are proportional to the ultimate power/utility of that unit. I would guess that costs to pop, advance, and maintain casters are extremely high compared to more mundane units. I'm sure Stanley coughs up a huge chunk of change on a regular basis to cover the upkeep for four extremely capable casters (five when Misty was still alive).

But no matter how powerful they are and how much Stanley paid for them, he still lost almost a dozen cities, because power is worthless if you don't know how to use them.

In the hands of a capable leader--such as Ansom--I'm sure casters are powerful and worth what you pay for them, but no more so than what you pay for competent warlords or powerful heavies. Again--it's a turn-based strategy wargame. Units are balanced by their costs and you get what you pay for.

But in the hands of Parson... He's "in a gamelike situation, and that calls for a gamelike solution." Parson is the ultimate warlord. He is a master wargamer. If anyone can break the system, it's him. Right now, we're getting a taste of that by him showing how incredibly powerful he can make select units simply by applying them correctly. Sizemore, for example, was the key to a total rout of 1,000+ Jetstone units in the tunnels, but to make it work required not only Sizemore's unique abilities, but also the strategy to lay out the traps and guide the other units, as well as the psychology of playing Ansom so that he marched his troops in in exactly the right way to make this work. Without Parson to guide him, Sizemore's duties mostly included mining, creating golems, and cleaning up crap. He was support staff. Parson made him into a deadly weapon of mass devastation.

Similarly, Wanda is incredibly powerful--we already knew that. But from a purely tactical point of view, what she did this last turn (raising a 1,000 uncroaked Jetstones) provides only a momentary military advantage that any decent leader can probably work around. But as part of Parson's plan, the psychological effect is far greater than any temporary boost in physical might.

So anyway--that's my defense of Rob and Jamie's overarching plan. I really don't think casters are inherently overpowered. But I do think that what we're seeing now with Parson finding ways to exploit their power is just a preview of whatever his game-breaking ultimate solution is going to be.

PS--I can't wait to see what Parson can do with a sane Jack (or for that matter, what he can do with Maggie beyond just using her for thinkagrams).

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Also remember that they are expensive. As far as we know, Sizemore is the only caster native to Gobwin Knob. Wanda and Jack are from Faq. We don't know where Maggie is from. Probably Gobwin Knob because she didn't know Jacks name. All we know for certain is that is that she isn't from Faq. Misty is a complete unknown.

[Olibarro]

Exactly. Like I say, I'm just waiting to see how Parson exploits the system. They foreshadowed that way back.

We've seen nothing to suggest that the casters are truly overpowered, because we don't know their true cost, and all evidence seems to be that they are so extreme now only because they are in Parson's hands.

[Lamech]

The casters are all extremely powerful. Sizemore makes tunnels almost untakeable with out overwhelming force. I'm thinking the odds were about ten to one. Wanda can turn massive battles that get won in to a huge (if short lived) advantage. Perhaps even turning the tide of a battle, mid-combat. Jack we have seen in action... a predictimancer would be horrible to have to fight. Just imagine if Parson could have asked "Which hex should I put the dwagons in?" Maggie can turn captured units, make spies, improve command structure, and be a source of distrust. The casters are insanely powerful, and Parson makes them mind-numbingly so.

[BRC]

Casters are definetally powerful, I would call them the type of thing that can change the tides of battle, so GK having five of them is no mean feat. Though it's implied that there are varying power levels for casters, we know Jack was "Master Level", Wanda is pretty darn powerful, as is Sizemore.

Mind you, some caster types can do more things than others, we don't know how much better a powerful lookamancer is compared to a weaker one (can they look farther or somthing?).

I find it odd that the RCC dosn't appear to have any casters, perhaps none of the member nations were willing to risk such a valuable asset.

[Olibarro]

But what do casters cost?

Would you rather have Sizemore or two warlords equivalent to Vinnie? Would you rather have Maggie or 50 Goblin Knights? Would you rather have one lookamancer or 700 bats?

Sure Sizemore is powerful in his element, but that's a huge risk to put him out in the field. He makes the GK tunnels nearly impassable, but most people wouldn't risk taking him out of the city, and if Ansom has just stormed the walls like the coalition wanted, Sizemore would have been pretty much worthless. He was useful in one single niche, so Parson played his enemy to ensure that he ran to where Sizemore's strengths could actually help.

[BRC]

But what do casters cost?

Would you rather have Sizemore or two warlords equivalent to Vinnie? Would you rather have Maggie or 50 Goblin Knights? Would you rather have one lookamancer or 700 bats?

Sure Sizemore is powerful in his element, but that's a huge risk to put him out in the field. He makes the GK tunnels nearly impassable, but most people wouldn't risk taking him out of the city, and if Ansom has just stormed the walls like the coalition wanted, Sizemore would have been pretty much worthless. He was useful in one single niche, so Parson played his enemy to ensure that he ran to where Sizemore's strengths could actually help.

I think that's how Casters are meant to work, for the most part, they are support units. Powerful, very useful support units, but they arn't a replacement for ground troops by any means.
They are, to use a term I picked up from Schlock Mercenary, "Force Multipliers", They increase the effectiveness of your troops.

Thinkamancers improve your lines of communication, Foolamancers deceive the enemy, Lookamancers provide intelligence, Dirtamancers help with defense (and golems), Predictamancers give valuable advice, Mathamancers help warlords judge the risk in a situation. All these things are very useful and could turn the tide of battle, but none of them will win a battle in of themselves. Croakamancers might be able to if you give them enough Uncroaked troops, but a Croakamancer alone can be defeated by waiting for their troops to rot, making them horrible on anything but constant offense.

[Glome]

I find it odd that the RCC dosn't appear to have any casters, perhaps none of the member nations were willing to risk such a valuable asset.

The lofty elves and altruistic elves are healers, so they could be casters if it isn't just a special ability (same with Charley's Archons). More importantly, Jillian states early on that they have no lookamancers, not that they have no casters.

So far though, the only unit on Ansom's side we know for sure is a caster is TV's thinkamancer who is indeed at home. So yeah, most casters are undoubtedly at home because they are too valuable to risk when sheer numbers should be enough to win the battle anyway, however it doesn't exclude the possibility that Ansom does indeed have casters of some sort.

[Winged One]

Well, it seems that nobody's taking my lolerf request. Oh well. It doesn't really have much to do with the reason I think magic is overpowered.

The extreme power of magic in the Battle of Gobwin Knob seems to be entirely due to Parson's strategic mind, but that doesn't mean magic isn't overpowered. It just means that rather than all magic being overpowered, one specific spell is so broken that it makes every scrap of magic possessed by the side using it far more powerful. Specifically, "Scrubby"/summon Perfect Warlord. Parson's strategic mind wouldn't be in the same universe as Gobwin Knob if not for that spell.

I still like the story of course, since the factor that breaks the game is a person who has to overcome challenges and grow as a character.

[Aquillion]

The casters are all extremely powerful. Sizemore makes tunnels almost untakeable with out overwhelming force.

That's not even remotely true. Sizemore almost lost, remember, and wasn't sure he could pull it off himself despite having been setting up traps there for a long long time. More importantly, the deciding factor (given how close the fight was, and how it came down to a direct confrontation between leaders) was that Webinar was not, basically, a very good leader (we don't know what his numbers really mean, but Jillian was contemptuous of them, and even he admitted there were better leaders in the coalition.) Ansom failed to take the tunnels because he booped up badly by sending the wrong person, not because Sizemore is imba.

(Also, of course, Sizemore's capabilities are pretty specific and limited. You can't fight in tunnels all the time. Assuming he costs about as much as a powerful warlord, it's not hard to see why taking the warlord might sometimes be the better choice.)

The only capabilities Maggie has shown (on her own) so far are contacting others and refreshing units. Useful, but not really particularly powerful, and she admits there are better people out there (like Charlie.)

Jack and Wanda are in a class of their own, but they're clearly supposed to be world-class casters.

[Lamech]

That's not even remotely true. Sizemore almost lost, remember, and wasn't sure he could pull it off himself despite having been setting up traps there for a long long time. More importantly, the deciding factor (given how close the fight was, and how it came down to a direct confrontation between leaders) was that Webinar was not, basically, a very good leader (we don't know what his numbers really mean, but Jillian was contemptuous of them, and even he admitted there were better leaders in the coalition.) Ansom failed to take the tunnels because he booped up badly by sending the wrong person, not because Sizemore is imba.

242 gobwins without leadership + sizemore and his creations vs. a couple thousand people with leadership. Erm... yeah. That totaly wasn't overwhelming force. Eight to one odds, thats almost... wait... No wait that is overwhelming, actually. Unless, your counting the calvary that was running down, in which case it wasn't close because Webinar was screwed no matter what. Killing Sizemore would have helped in the grand sceme, because he would have died to the calvary no matter what.
Secondly, the gobwins were totally unled, Parson could have very easily changed that if he needed to.

(Also, of course, Sizemore's capabilities are pretty specific and limited. You can't fight in tunnels all the time. Assuming he costs about as much as a powerful warlord, it's not hard to see why taking the warlord might sometimes be the better choice.)

Mearly shutting off one of three attack venues, to any force that doesn't get eight to one odds. Erm... I would say that is pretty powerful.

The only capabilities Maggie has shown (on her own) so far are contacting others and refreshing units. Useful, but not really particularly powerful, and she admits there are better people out there (like Charlie.)

Maggie is a better thinkamancer than Wanda for sure. Unless we assume she was lying. Regardless why she is so valuable is being able to make use of captured units like say casters, or high level warlords like Ansom. Even if she can't cast mind control spells she can cast suggestion spells, and those would be extremely useful on a major warlord. And Charlie uses an artifact.

More importantly, the deciding factor (given how close the fight was, and how it came down to a direct confrontation between leaders) was that Webinar was not, basically, a very good leader (we don't know what his numbers really mean, but Jillian was contemptuous of them, and even he admitted there were better leaders in the coalition.) Ansom failed to take the tunnels because he booped up badly by sending the wrong person, not because Sizemore is imba.

Sending a higher level warlord would mearly mean Parson would have to send one of his warlords to cancel it out, or wander down their himself. Or send some humans or uncroaked down. Or move twolls down, or some such. I doubt Parson's plan was "Do step a, b, c, in order despite anything the coalition does."

[DevilDan]

I'm beginning to think it would be pointless to try to convince some people that casters aren't "overpowered." Fortunately, there is no need to argue individual points: Even with the casters, with knowledge of Ansom's plan of attack, with the toughest defensive position in the entirety of Erf, and with the genius of the perfect warlord, the odds were only two to one for survival for even a single turn!

Yes, casters are powerful, particularly in the hands of someone like Ansom. That doesn't mean that this fictional game system is necessarily broken.

I floated the idea before that Maggie was from Orgchart, if only because her clothes are a sort of business suit. Oh, and it's clear to me that Sizemore nearly "bit the dust" in the tunnel battle.

[Lamech]

I'm beginning to think it would be pointless to try to convince some people that casters aren't "overpowered." Fortunately, there is no need to argue individual points: Even with the casters, with knowledge of Ansom's plan of attack, with the toughest defensive position in the entirety of Erf, and with the genius of the perfect warlord, the odds were only two to one for survival for even a single turn!

Yes, casters are powerful, particularly in the hands of someone like Ansom. That doesn't mean that this fictional game system is necessarily broken.

The three to two odds of not losing the city was before the summon spell finished fixing itself. Secondly, to the people saying that the casters would be so much weaker if it wasn't for Parson. What? So the casters would be weaker if we stripped them of a certain spell powerful spell. Well I guess croakamancers wouldn't be as good without trioxin. Or dirtamancers without golem making.

Oh, and it's clear to me that Sizemore nearly "bit the dust" in the tunnel battle.

I still fail to see this. Maybe, but Sizemore still had quite a bit of magic at his disposal. Being next to a golem wasn't luck; they would have had to defeat it to get to Sizemore. He also had three out of four of his best units at the end of the battle, and magic to seal up quit a bit of stuff.

[Olibarro]

Okay, lamech, so what's your point then? Are you saying that casters in Erfworld are overpowered? Since we don't know the creation/advancement/upkeep costs of anything, how can we argue that they are overpowered?

Are you arguing that they in some way ruin or diminish the story for you? Because you seem to like the comic very much.

I just don't get the argument that they are "overpowered." Compared to what?

[DevilDan]

The three to two odds of not losing the city was before the summon spell finished fixing itself.

I only alluded to his genius, not to the entire package, as it were.

Secondly, to the people saying that the casters would be so much weaker if it wasn't for Parson. What? So the casters would be weaker if we stripped them of a certain spell powerful spell. Well I guess croakamancers wouldn't be as good without trioxin. Or dirtamancers without golem making.

I fail to see your point. Any system can be spammed/cheesed/gamed with sufficient imagination, and Erf is a "game-like" world.

I still fail to see this. Maybe, but Sizemore still had quite a bit of magic at his disposal. Being next to a golem wasn't luck; they would have had to defeat it to get to Sizemore. He also had three out of four of his best units at the end of the battle, and magic to seal up quit a bit of stuff.

Sure, he still had magic left over. In any game a player can still have moves, ammo, or magic left over: that's why looting their bodies can pay off well. He had three of four units left over, but possibly after he healed/resurrected them as he did before killing Webinar and Dora. Or perhaps they were simply elsewhere. All I know is that it required very careful planning, detailed knowledge of the terrain (just ask Napoleon if that's important), a variety of devious booby traps (including collapsing tunnels, none of which may necessarily require a dirtamancer), and gobwins with good bonuses to tunnel fighting to pull it off. Unless Sizemore had a reason for wanting to be face to face with two RCC warlords, he came close to death.

[Lamech]

Hmm... I haven't used the word overpowered. And I have no idea what would qualify as overpowered, as you, Olibarro, are correct we don't know the costs of anything. For example in one RTS game I have played there are units that can easily if used properly wipe out an enemy army. Some even basically allow an auto win. And while exremely powerful, the high cost make these units no way over-powered. I think casters are very similar to that, able to wipe change the tide of battles, but are have a severe limiting factor.
I should have been more clear about them not being "over-powered", in fact I don't know what that would even mean. I DO believe they are stronger then some people are giving them credit for

Also they obviously won't unblance or damage the story, the other side will have casters if Parson goes on the attack, and right now they are what turns a not crushing defeat in to a climatic climax; which I believe in this case is a very good thing.

[Olibarro]

And thus, we are essentially in agreement on all the major points, and yet through the magic of the internet, we can still turn it into an argument.

Darn you, Internet!

[Thank you for clarifying ]

[DevilDan]

Jack we have seen in action... a predictimancer would be horrible to have to fight. Just imagine if Parson could have asked "Which hex should I put the dwagons in?" Maggie can turn captured units, make spies, improve command structure, and be a source of distrust. The casters are insanely powerful, and Parson makes them mind-numbingly so.

We haven't seen a single predictamancer in action, so we don't know what their limitations are or how much they can predict (or even what the possibility of error in their predictions is). Similarly, we know little about Maggie's other abilities. Sure, perhaps she can easily turn an infantry unit (or a dozen?), but it would surely be far harder to turn an enemy warlord.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by lamech
Secondly, to the people saying that the casters would be so much weaker if it wasn't for Parson. What? So the casters would be weaker if we stripped them of a certain spell powerful spell. Well I guess croakamancers wouldn't be as good without trioxin. Or dirtamancers without golem making.

I fail to see your point. Any system can be spammed/cheesed/gamed with sufficient imagination, and Erf is a "game-like" world.

*Re-reads thread* erm... it appears my memories have gotten muddled. I thought someone wrote that the casters only seemed powerful because of Parson's mind. I was countering this non-existancant point, by saying Parson is another result of magic....

Well on to actualy things we are debating...

Sure, he still had magic left over. In any game a player can still have moves, ammo, or magic left over: that's why looting their bodies can pay off well. He had three of four units left over, but possibly after he healed/resurrected them as he did before killing Webinar and Dora. Or perhaps they were simply elsewhere. All I know is that it required very careful planning, detailed knowledge of the terrain (just ask Napoleon if that's important), a variety of devious booby traps (including collapsing tunnels, none of which may necessarily require a dirtamancer), and gobwins with good bonuses to tunnel fighting to pull it off. Unless Sizemore had a reason for wanting to be face to face with two RCC warlords, he came close to death.

He had very little trouble smashing them with a golem. As we know from several examples units can screen for other members of the stack, and I highly suspect Sizemore was having his golems do just that. Any unit that cut a path to Sizemore, which Webinar probably had to do, would be gaurenteed to have a near by broken golem. Regardless at no point that we have on panel was Webinar or Dora close to croaking Sizemore. I'm not sure why there were not other units floating around. Perhaps Sizemore was conserving his magic, and only healed as much as needed.
You are correct the victory required careful planning, and attention to detail. Those things were provided by Parson, but he was provided by magic. Secondly, the marbits are widely assumed to have bonuses, and other Jetstone units had the benefit of Webinar's bonus, and perhaps were futher aided by the Jetstone chief warlord bonus. Finally, I believe that eight to one odds is overwhelming. I don't think that many casters would do a very good job of stopping attacks alone. Even after Wanda shot of the air defenses the air units should have croaked her, but Jillian wasn't a good leader.

[DevilDan]

He had very little trouble smashing them with a golem. As we know from several examples units can screen for other members of the stack, and I highly suspect Sizemore was having his golems do just that. Any unit that cut a path to Sizemore, which Webinar probably had to do, would be gaurenteed to have a near by broken golem.

Which is still not as good as NOT letting enemy units cut their way through and having WHOLE golems rather than broken ones...

Regardless at no point that we have on panel was Webinar or Dora close to croaking Sizemore. I'm not sure why there were not other units floating around. Perhaps Sizemore was conserving his magic, and only healed as much as needed.

Surely they were needed when TWO warlords are close enough that he needs to hide behind a stalagmite and there are apparently no other GK units in sight. Sure, maybe it wasn't as close as it seems, but I'm assuming that the comic's creators showed us something representative of the "actual" action.

Once the leadership was taken down, eliminating coordination and bonuses, it could become a rout.

You are correct the victory required careful planning, and attention to detail. Those things were provided by Parson, but he was provided by magic. Secondly, the marbits are widely assumed to have bonuses, and other Jetstone units had the benefit of Webinar's bonus, and perhaps were futher aided by the Jetstone chief warlord bonus. Finally, I believe that eight to one odds is overwhelming.

The bonuses as you describe would be at least somewhat offset by Chief Warlord and dirtamancer bonuses. Yes, marbits would possibly or even likely have tunnel bonuses, but Jetstone units and sourmanders would probably not. Eight-to-one odds on an open field without all the other factors I cited would be overwhelming: This was not a fair fight in that sense, though.

I don't think that many casters would do a very good job of stopping attacks alone. Even after Wanda shot of the air defenses the air units should have croaked her, but Jillian wasn't a good leader.

Here we're dealing with "air defenses," something we know nothing about. Are they the equivalent of booby traps? (Oh, and Parson would agree with you: the remaining air units could have taken Wanda down.)

[Lunix Vandal]

Here we're dealing with "air defenses," something we know nothing about. Are they the equivalent of booby traps? (Oh, and Parson would agree with you: the remaining air units could have taken Wanda down.)

Furthermore, I would strongly suspect that Jillian and company did not know how many or how strong of air defenses Wanda kept in reserve after the initial blast. I think that Jillian's thoughts at that time would have been more along the lines of "Oh boop she betrayed me we just lost four units can she do that again we should run," rather than "Oh boop she betrayed me we just lost four units let's kill her."

[Godskook]

Any unit that cut a path to Sizemore, which Webinar probably had to do, would be gaurenteed to have a near by broken golem. Regardless at no point that we have on panel was Webinar or Dora close to croaking Sizemore.

What definition of 'close' are you using? In a game where dwagons die in two hits(1 gwiffon bite, 1 Jillian stab*), surely 2 warlords can croak a single caster in one strike apiece. Considering that Webinar and Dora were close enough to Sizemore for Webinar(an anal warlord, according to most other characters) to be shouting an equivalent of 'its over', I'd say that it got pretty booping close. The fact that Sizemore still had options doesn't change that for me. I'm curious, however, as to what you would consider "Webinar came close to killing Sizemore before Sizemore killed him"?

*This is, to my knowledge, the best measurement of a dwagon being taken from full health to croak in one on-screen battle with 'measurable' damage.

Finally, I believe that eight to one odds is overwhelming.

8-1 odds are only overwhelming if there are no FMs(force-multiplier) at play. AoE traps are a FM. Healers are a FM - Sizemore counts as a healer for his golems, yet as far as we know, Webinar had none with him. Information, preparedness and sound tactics are all FMs. Webinar had none, since, in effect, he was ambushed. Well, he had 'go for the caster', but that was playing into Parson's plan, so there could've been better options.

Leadership, in 2 senses, is a FM. In the first, in the standard sense, that Webinar/Sizemore/Parson were all using to order troops about as the battle progressed. In the second, as a bonus. In this sense, Parson's old bonus was 2, which negates Dora's. This means that we have Webinar's bonus against Sizemore's, with anything that Parson recieved from his sword's completion thrown on top*. Do we know that Webinar had a higher bonus than Sizemore? Also, Parson's bonus is the only one at play in the unled stacks, so a win there for Parson. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a numerical advantage does not equate into a tactical one. For a proof-text of the general truth of this, watch 300, which is only barely historical, but gets the point across that numbers aren't everything(and that point was one thing that the movie had right).

*Warlords and Casters are only ever stated as giving stack-wide bonuses, while Chief warlords give hex-wide bonuses.

[BRC]

I also think you shouldn't make the mistake of lumping Golems and Dirtamancers together.

As far as we know, Dirtamancers are capable of creating, healing, and boosting Golems. However, Golems appear to be created like any other unit, Dirtamancers just give the option of making them.

Those Heavy Metal Golems are tough, but they were likely very expensive to make, and were made over a long period of time. Just because you have a Dirtamancer does not mean you have HMG's

[Lamech]

Furthermore, I would strongly suspect that Jillian and company did not know how many or how strong of air defenses Wanda kept in reserve after the initial blast. I think that Jillian's thoughts at that time would have been more along the lines of "Oh boop she betrayed me we just lost four units can she do that again we should run," rather than "Oh boop she betrayed me we just lost four units let's kill her."

Thats a really good point especially considering her intial order was to scatter if Wanda tried something. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Wanda to have a summon cosmic horror spell, or invoke apocalypse sitting around.

Surely they were needed when TWO warlords are close enough that he needs to hide behind a stalagmite and there are apparently no other GK units in sight. Sure, maybe it wasn't as close as it seems, but I'm assuming that the comic's creators showed us something representative of the "actual" action.

I don't think it seemed close at any point if we look at it with the info we have. When Webinar was "shouting his stand and be ended" he was one spell away from being smashed. That isn't close. Nor do I think looking at the final unit count shows it to be close most of Sizemore's heavies were intact at battles end.
There are a great many reasons why Sizemore may not have had other units to gaurd him from the warlords. The other golems may have been off stomping other units. Sizemore may have been conserving juice. He may have had them all die on him despite spamming heals. But we don't know which is correct; it shows nothing.

What definition of 'close' are you using? In a game where dwagons die in two hits(1 gwiffon bite, 1 Jillian stab*), surely 2 warlords can croak a single caster in one strike apiece. Considering that Webinar and Dora were close enough to Sizemore for Webinar(an anal warlord, according to most other characters) to be shouting an equivalent of 'its over', I'd say that it got pretty booping close. The fact that Sizemore still had options doesn't change that for me. I'm curious, however, as to what you would consider "Webinar came close to killing Sizemore before Sizemore killed him"?

Webinar wasn't close enough to strike. While Sizemore was close enough to smash Webinar. They both would kill the other in one shot, but Webinar had no way of taking it. If a fighter can one shot a wizard, but the wizard takes him out with a readied power word, the fighter wasn't close to victory. The fighter was totally screwed.
Webinar's shouting was due to overconfidence, and not knowing what dirtomancers could do. He dodged the spell, and thinking it was an attack spell. If he knew what dirtomancers did he would have blocked it. (Unless dirtomancer actually do have killing spells in which case. Sizemore had magic to use and kill spells. QED.)

Now what close would be would say: Sizemore using his last drop of magic to toast Webinar. Or say the calvary ariving just in time.

Now all that being said, the battle may have been close. (Between Sizemore and Webinar, the whole tunnel battle was not. The spidew's would have over run Webinar no matter what, and broken their leadership.) Perhaps Sizemore had just enough golems to take out all the other jetstone forces. But we don't know. He didn't know how long he would have to fight. He needed to save juice for tunnel sealing. But what evidence we do have points towards Sizemore winning with resources to spare. Therefore I think Sizemore did not come close to dying or losing his engagement.

[Aquillion]

242 gobwins without leadership + sizemore and his creations vs. a couple thousand people with leadership. Erm... yeah. That totaly wasn't overwhelming force. Eight to one odds, thats almost... wait... No wait that is overwhelming, actually. Unless, your counting the calvary that was running down, in which case it wasn't close because Webinar was screwed no matter what. Killing Sizemore would have helped in the grand sceme, because he would have died to the calvary no matter what.
Secondly, the gobwins were totally unled, Parson could have very easily changed that if he needed to.

Mearly shutting off one of three attack venues, to any force that doesn't get eight to one odds. Erm... I would say that is pretty powerful.

Maggie is a better thinkamancer than Wanda for sure. Unless we assume she was lying. Regardless why she is so valuable is being able to make use of captured units like say casters, or high level warlords like Ansom. Even if she can't cast mind control spells she can cast suggestion spells, and those would be extremely useful on a major warlord. And Charlie uses an artifact.

Sending a higher level warlord would mearly mean Parson would have to send one of his warlords to cancel it out, or wander down their himself. Or send some humans or uncroaked down. Or move twolls down, or some such. I doubt Parson's plan was "Do step a, b, c, in order despite anything the coalition does."

Sizemore specifically says that he wasn't sure he could win it. He is a better judge of that than anything we can come up with by squinting at the pictures. If he says there's a good chance he was going to lose, then there's a good chance he was going to lose. Given that, he wasn't 'shutting off' one of the venues to the city; he was just defending adequately against a large but poorly-led attack force, whose composition was crippled by Ansom's hangups.

I do not think the golems are simply an extension of Sizemore; they're units in their own right, with associated costs beyond simply his magic. He makes crap golems nearly for free, sure, but we've had no indication they're any good. The other golems are, as far as we know, simply units he's good with; I think it's likely that Gobwin Knob still had to pay for them. Even if he created them, we know nothing about the costs, the time and resources involved, and so on; they are not simply free extensions of his power (he plainly can't just pull more out of his ass the way he can with Crap Golems, say.)

Taking them into account -- and by all indications they're very strong units -- the fight was much less lopsided in terms of numbers than you're saying. The Gobwins, likewise, were not leaderless (Sizemore does count as a leader, although not an amazing one for non-golems; and more importantly they also have Parson's bonus, boosted by his sword, since his Warlord bonus applies to every unit in the capital. You mentioned him 'wandering down there himself', but he doesn't have to do that -- remember, the chief warlord's bonus works for the whole capital, and the fact that he used Sizemore implies that it stacks with regular warlords.) It is quite possible that the sword gives more than a +3 bonus to leadership; in that case, Parson's bonus alone exceeds Webinar's. And, of course, Gobwins get big bonuses to tunnel fighting, and act as a force multiplier on their own for Parson's side.

So far the record for mind-control and suggestion spells in the strip hasn't been that hot (aside from the one on Parson, which is a 350,000-shmucker one-time deal, powered by 'plot'.) They seem to be able to make people do what they secretly wanted to do already, or bind them to agreements that they willingly enter into, but neither of those are particularly overwhelming, just useful.

And the question is Sizemore's power. Other things Parson could've done don't enter into it. The point is, Ansom didn't send a higher-level warlord, and that's the only reason Sizemore was able to handle the situation on his own.

(Of course, there's also the fact that one of the main traps Sizemore used against the enemy looked pretty much non-magically based, and in fact it used a suspiciously advanced chemical reaction. It is possible that Parson was involved in that, too.)

[shadowdemon_lord]

Casters overpowered? Nah, just the most powerful tech/support units in the game. In the beginning Parson had that grid thing, what did that cost him? The use of three incredibly skilled casters. What did that give him? Very good tactical awareness. Of course, Ansom got much the same thing by virtue of having fast fliers with two intelligent skilled warlord commanders over them (Vinnie+bats and Jillian+Gwiffons). Sure, as he was on defense Parson didn't have the luxury of being able to use his Dwagons for recon, but ultimately those casters leveled the playing field when used for that purpose, they didn't give Parson a massive advantage.

It's only through desperate and unorthodox use of casters that their true potential is being shown. If Parson were up against a single foe, Maggie's thinkagrams wouldn't do much for him for example. If Parson were on the open field, he would not risk Sizemore or Wanda by putting them in charge of stacks unless he was almost 100% certain he could win that fight or he was getting really desperate. The consequences of losing either one of those casters for Gobwin Knob would be absolutely catastrophic. I mean, without Wanda he wouldn't have any warlords period. So yes, I gotta say that casters are incredibly powerful support units, but their value also leads to their weakness, which is that they are units in a war-game that are completely unexpendable. Considering that in war every plan is a good one until your opponent comes up with a better one, relying on unexpendable units in the field is incredibly risky.

[DevilDan]

I don't think it seemed close at any point if we look at it with the info we have. When Webinar was "shouting his stand and be ended" he was one spell away from being smashed. That isn't close. Nor do I think looking at the final unit count shows it to be close most of Sizemore's heavies were intact at battles end.

The writer and artist made it seem as if it was very close. It's not conclusive, but I think that it's very compelling. I'm curious: perhaps you think that Sizemore is the sort to play with their heads, to play mind games with his enemies. He doesn't strike me as the type.

Fine. What is your criterion for "close," really? To me, being forced to at any point have your caster face to face with two enemy warlords and no able units between them is pretty close. Having it come down to a single spell and a "double hit" (Sizemore got lucky that a third RCC unit wasn't alive and he got lucky with Dora and Webinar standing close enough to get taken out with a single hit, I'd say) is also close.

Sizemore was a move away from taking serious melee damage. That's close.

There are a great many reasons why Sizemore may not have had other units to gaurd him from the warlords. The other golems may have been off stomping other units. Sizemore may have been conserving juice. He may have had them all die on him despite spamming heals. But we don't know which is correct; it shows nothing.

I mentioned the possibility that some golems were otherwise occupied before. The fact that they needed to be elsewhere rather than guarding Sizemore suggests that the GK forces were spread relatively thinly, however intelligent their positioning was.

Webinar wasn't close enough to strike. While Sizemore was close enough to smash Webinar. They both would kill the other in one shot, but Webinar had no way of taking it. If a fighter can one shot a wizard, but the wizard takes him out with a readied power word, the fighter wasn't close to victory. The fighter was totally screwed.

Wow! Deucedly clever of Sizemore to arrange for that demolished golem to fall precisely at that exact spot behind Webinar and Dora. Obviously his command of the battlefield and his tactical abilities are more than we've been led to believe! He managed to get the RCC warlords to stand right in front of where the golem's carcass lay. Astonishing, really.

Unless you think it was just happenstance...

Now all that being said, the battle may have been close. (Between Sizemore and Webinar, the whole tunnel battle was not. The spidew's would have over run Webinar no matter what, and broken their leadership.) Perhaps Sizemore had just enough golems to take out all the other jetstone forces. But we don't know. He didn't know how long he would have to fight. He needed to save juice for tunnel sealing.

Yeah, it makes sense to take such a dire risk (losing ALL his juice, his bonus, his leadership, etc., which includes his ability to seal tunnels) just to conserve the energy needed to heal a single unit. Suuure. I bet Parson would have been very happy to see Sizemore be so frugal and careful; it's not as if Sizemore is one of the most valuable and rare units at his disposal.

Obviously, GK could have deployed further forces into the tunnels. Of course, there's also the little matter of defending the walls. Ansom was defeated not only because of his selection of Webinar, but because he either assumed that the tunnels would be defended or that they would be ceded completely. He did not consider the possibility that GK would give up the tunnels only to retake them.

But what evidence we do have points towards Sizemore winning with resources to spare. Therefore I think Sizemore did not come close to dying or losing his engagement.

Just the fact that they reached the area where Sizemore was located is already taking some risks. Just look at Manpower's death at the battle of Warchalking! And just because there were other GK units in other parts of the tunnels doesn't mean that this individual engagement was not close. It must have seemed so to Dora and Webinar, who took the time to call out Sizemore. I guess his cowering behind the rocks was also part of teasing them.

[Lamech]

Sizemore specifically says that he wasn't sure he could win it. He is a better judge of that than anything we can come up with by squinting at the pictures. If he says there's a good chance he was going to lose, then there's a good chance he was going to lose. Given that, he wasn't 'shutting off' one of the venues to the city; he was just defending adequately against a large but poorly-led attack force, whose composition was crippled by Ansom's hangups.

Hmm... I guess that would point to being close. Although I think he was talking about the raw and seemingly endless numbers that were headed towards him. Secondly, erfworlder's suck at determining battle odds. In the doughnut of doom Ansom wasted a good number of elves, but the max stack was an easy win. Again when the wounded dwagons were encountered the archons thought that it would be an easy victory. Which wasn't the case.

Although it does make the battle being close significantly more likely. (Although I think I'm still probably right.)

And the question is Sizemore's power. Other things Parson could've done don't enter into it. The point is, Ansom didn't send a higher-level warlord, and that's the only reason Sizemore was able to handle the situation on his own.

What Parson could have done enters in to the discussion if we are talking about what Ansom could have done. Unless you believe Parson would have used the same tactics regardless of what the enemy forces did.

since his Warlord bonus applies to every unit in the capital. You mentioned him 'wandering down there himself', but he doesn't have to do that -- remember, the chief warlord's bonus works for the whole capital, and the fact that he used Sizemore implies that it stacks with regular warlords.)

Alrighty then, I do believe you are under some mis-conceptions about Parson's chief warlord bonus. First off units get an even bigger bonus for being in the chief warlords stack. Secondly, his chief warlord bonus works for every unit of his capital, that doesn't have anything to go with location if we go off of that. So, yes being down their leading units himself would have allowed for a bigger bonus.

The writer and artist made it seem as if it was very close. It's not conclusive, but I think that it's very compelling. I'm curious: perhaps you think that Sizemore is the sort to play with their heads, to play mind games with his enemies. He doesn't strike me as the type.

Fine. What is your criterion for "close," really? To me, being forced to at any point have your caster face to face with two enemy warlords and no able units between them is pretty close. Having it come down to a single spell and a "double hit" (Sizemore got lucky that a third RCC unit wasn't alive and he got lucky with Dora and Webinar standing close enough to get taken out with a single hit, I'd say) is also close.

Sizemore was a move away from taking serious melee damage. That's close.

I've given my criteria for being close, last post somewhat. Anyway to be a little more clear, when something with a good amount of randomness, like say the calvary ariving on time, favors the winning person by a little bit. So if, Sizemore needed to calvary to save him from Webinar, it would have been close. Or if the amount of juice Sizemore needed was either a little more or less than he had.

It doesn't matter if he was a move away or even a single attack away if the enemy doesn't have a chance at taking it. Then it mearly looks close to people who thought that the enemy had a chance of doing so.

Wow! Deucedly clever of Sizemore to arrange for that demolished golem to fall precisely at that exact spot behind Webinar and Dora. Obviously his command of the battlefield and his tactical abilities are more than we've been led to believe! He managed to get the RCC warlords to stand right in front of where the golem's carcass lay. Astonishing, really.

Now lets think about right before Sizemore's last** golem fell. A jetstone/marbit had to kill it, and unless Sizemore killed units with his shovel, or magic death spells*, the only Jetstone units were Webinar and Dora. So that means that Webinar and Dora killed probably Sizemore's last golem. And if they did they would have that golem corspe near by. Also Sizemore may have decided a rear shot was better than a frontal strike, and simply let the warlords step over the golem, or perhaps the warlords were in between Sizemore and the golem. Not luck or tactical mastery.

*If he did have magic kill spells I'm going to say Webinar and Dora were screwed even if there wasn't a nearby golem.
**I'm going to focus on the general area of Webinar and Dora, they may have been other golems and Jetstone units locked in combat elsewhere, but they wouldn't affect the Webinar/Sizemore battle.

Yeah, it makes sense to take such a dire risk (losing ALL his juice, his bonus, his leadership, etc., which includes his ability to seal tunnels) just to conserve the energy needed to heal a single unit. Suuure. I bet Parson would have been very happy to see Sizemore be so frugal and careful; it's not as if Sizemore is one of the most valuable and rare units at his disposal.

Sizemore didn't know how long he would need to fight, obviously he would not want to waste his limited amount of juice.

Just the fact that they reached the area where Sizemore was located is already taking some risks. Just look at Manpower's death at the battle of Warchalking! And just because there were other GK units in other parts of the tunnels doesn't mean that this individual engagement was not close. It must have seemed so to Dora and Webinar, who took the time to call out Sizemore. I guess his cowering behind the rocks was also part of teasing them.

Yes it did seem close to Webinar and Dora. That is because they did not know what dirtamancers could do; had they known they would not have spent the time calling him out. They even thought the spell was an attack spell, seeing as how they tried to dodge the spell instead of blocking it.

So far the record for mind-control and suggestion spells in the strip hasn't been that hot (aside from the one on Parson, which is a 350,000-shmucker one-time deal, powered by 'plot'.) They seem to be able to make people do what they secretly wanted to do already, or bind them to agreements that they willingly enter into, but neither of those are particularly overwhelming, just useful.

Well had the suggestion spell breaking been done properly it would probably be game over for the coalition right now. Jillian would be croaked or insane, so no thinkagram would be sent, so the archons would be stuck with the orders of do not attack. And besides the suggestion spell would have worked if not for those meddling Archons, or a if differant equal length path had been taken.

Anyway I remeber in one of the klog's loyalty spells were mentioned, and they have been mentioned as a way to get caster to work for you by Jillian.
That is powerful as it gets you powerful units if you can capture them. We don't have any evidence for Maggie specifically, but their are thinkamancers that can.

[mroozee]

Since it's unclear that Parson is playing against any other humans (aside from possibly Charley), this feels a lot more like a video game than a board game to me.

In human vs. machine RTS or TBS games, the human can win in situations that would be certain defeat against another competent human player. Whether its building a kill zone with Elementals in Warcraft, lining up low-cost pieces all along your coast to prevent invasion in Civ, or kiting mobs in Everquest, poor computer play can undermine a huge positional advantage.

This is what we're seeing with Parson. How quickly would GK fall if Parson led the RCC instead? My guess is that it would be very bad for Stanley and you'd see effective counters against the spellcasters.

[Godskook]

I don't think it seemed close at any point if we look at it with the info we have. When Webinar was "shouting his stand and be ended" he was one spell away from being smashed. That isn't close. Nor do I think looking at the final unit count shows it to be close most of Sizemore's heavies were intact at battles end.

It came down to two command stacks fighting each other, and one is reduced to 2 warlords while the other is reduced to a single caster(this is visible assessment). Yes, Webinar was 2 strikes away from croaking(at least, 1 golem, 1 spidew), but so was Sizemore. The rest of the tunnel battles were going undecided until Sizemore took out Jetstone leadership. If he had failed, Jetstone would've had the upper hand, and could've won. Sizemore came within 2 strikes(opinion), one per warlord, of croaking. The decisive fact of the whole battle was therefore who got their shot off first: Sizemore, or Webinar and Dora.

To me, the definition of close is not "ran out of resources", but rather "ran out of mistakes". MTG is a good example of a game where you can almost never "run out of resources", but yet, it is rather easy for a game of MTG to be 'close'. In such games, where I win, I realize, that if I had made one more mistake, I would've lost. That is what I see as Sizemore's position. If he hadn't cast that spell as quickly as he did, he would've been croaked. Hence, close.

Oh, and of the 3 golems that survive the fray, only 2 can be argued to be 'intact'. That third one is rather beat up. And we have no idea if Sizemore has 'resurect' spells for golems(which some resurect spells don't work in combat), making their appearance(which is difficult to assess as healthy) not relevant to how close combat was unless they were in that repair throughout the battle(or are easily healed).

Webinar wasn't close enough to strike. While Sizemore was close enough to smash Webinar. They both would kill the other in one shot, but Webinar had no way of taking it. If a fighter can one shot a wizard, but the wizard takes him out with a readied power word, the fighter wasn't close to victory. The fighter was totally screwed.

If I can kill you, and you can kill me, but you kill me first, somehow, I go from being able to kill you to being totally screwed? Wait, what?

Webinar's shouting was due to overconfidence, and not knowing what dirtomancers could do. He dodged the spell, and thinking it was an attack spell. If he knew what dirtomancers did he would have blocked it. (Unless dirtomancer actually do have killing spells in which case. Sizemore had magic to use and kill spells. QED.)

Close != escaping the inescapable.

Now all that being said, the battle may have been close. (Between Sizemore and Webinar, the whole tunnel battle was not. The spidew's would have over run Webinar no matter what, and broken their leadership.)

The whole battle was reliant on breaking Jetstone leadership. Parson admits this a couple times.

Hmm... I guess that would point to being close. Although I think he was talking about the raw and seemingly endless numbers that were headed towards him. Secondly, erfworlder's suck at determining battle odds. In the doughnut of doom Ansom wasted a good number of elves, but the max stack was an easy win. Again when the wounded dwagons were encountered the archons thought that it would be an easy victory. Which wasn't the case.

In the doughnut of doom, he wanted to keep his power hitters fresh for the main engagement, which is a pretty standard engagement plan.

It doesn't matter if he was a move away or even a single attack away if the enemy doesn't have a chance at taking it. Then it mearly looks close to people who thought that the enemy had a chance of doing so.

I believe that Webinar had a chance, except that Sizemore used tactics to slow him down and give Sizemore just enough of a chance to cast a spell. Had Sizemore chosen wrong on his spell(missed with an attack spell or had his healing spell blocked), I believe he would've croaked.