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2012-04-15, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Yep.
I know I'm feminist. I also know that "feminist" is a scary word for some.
I don't want any group to be more privileged than the other(s). I don't think men or trans* people are worse (or better) than women for any reason. I don't think insulting people according to personal characteristics they never chose to have will get anyone anywhere. A misogynistic man should not have his genitals insulted, only his mindset, and misogynistic women shouldn't get a pass only because of their hatred is presumably internalized.
@WarKitty: that's why people need to be educated. Yes, I agree that in an ideal world, people would be smarted and educate themselves, and no minority should have to educate others, but let's face it, our world is far from perfect. If it were closer to perfection, white people would have figured ages ago non-white people are not other species, women are humans just like men, and it really isn't anyone's business who is happily getting married with whom.
It's necessary to explain how and why treatment of genders isn't equal yet. It's no fun, but someone has to do it. We can't make all groups "safe places" for minorities, some of us have to be patient and explain what's wrong exactly.
EDIT: one, when I was bullied in high school, I thought it would be a good idea to pretend I was lesbian (for a variety of mostly bad reasons). Didn't work.
That's not a practice I like. I understand the logic behind it, but spouting lies is not going to improve the global situation, especially if someone finds out they'd been lied to. It would be better to just say you're not interested if you do it to avoid attention (of course, that's not the easiest solution, but how do you think these men will behave if they find out the truth?), and explain the actual situation or not say anything if it has to do with bisexuality being misunderstood.
... yes, I should start using the word "asexual" in real life, I admit.
I don't say I'm asexual only because no one has showed any sexual interest in me in years, beside my boyfriend (and the odd old creep I ran away from very fast), and everyone rightfully assume I'm monogamous and faithful; therefore, everyone thinks I'm heterosexual. Although I guess that if someone IRL was willing to know more about my actual sexual orientation, I'd take the time to tell them.Last edited by Mono Vertigo; 2012-04-15 at 08:38 AM.
Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-04-15, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
*shrug* Sometimes it works. Especially when dealing with biphobic people or people who deny bisexuals exist. (Though I've never done that, when I encounter that situation, I just don't say a thing, while possibly clenching my teeth out of view, until the topic passes. )
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2012-04-15, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I very much understand why you do that. It's the same reason I'm always quick to mention my boyfriend when I meet a new team. I think I'd probably do that even if I were single.
Of course, it helps enforce bisexuality's invisibility and in an ideal world you shouldn't have to lie to feel comfortable... but I can't fault you for one second for doing it.Spoiler
Challenge badge, courtesy of HeadlessMermaid.
Avatar courtesy of the talented Neoriceisgood. Features Pumpkin from my webcomic.
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2012-04-15, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
"Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."
Thank you Geomancer for the Death avatar.
My lets plays:
Alien vs Predator: marine chapter - Completed
Singularity - Canceled
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2012-04-15, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Yes. I think this is where Glass Mouse's point kicks in. We have an innate resistance to being told that we're wrong. When someone challenges our perceptions, our first reaction is often to accuse them rather than think about what's going on. Especially given that many people are unfamiliar with the concept of social structures, hearing "you have a sexist attitude or belief" means to them that they're being attacked. It's hard for someone who really does think that men and women are equal to hear that they've been saying or doing something that perpetuates that inequality.
Edit: It's not even bi-phobia. Being seen as a lesbian can seriously be easier than being seen as a single straight woman. The trouble is I'm a professional woman in an environment with a lot of single young men. I'm not interested in a relationship at this time - but that's usually not a good enough excuse. I feel like I'm seen primarily as potential girlfriend material and only secondarily as a competent colleague. In an ideal world those wouldn't conflict, but we don't live there do we? And there's a surprising number of guys who take rejection far too personally...it just creates a lot of conflicts and fuss that I really don't want to deal with.
Plus I feel like there's just more protection for anti-gay harassment than plain old sexual harassment, because it's easier to point to. If I say I'm a lesbian and someone gives me trouble over it, I can write down what they say and take it to HR and get them in trouble. If some guy asks me out and then acts bitter and hurt when he gets told I'm not interested, I have no recourse. Even if it's affecting my work or our professional relationship. I've had more harassment for being seen as a straight woman than anything else (frigid being one of the nicer comments).Last edited by WarKitty; 2012-04-15 at 08:41 AM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-04-15, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
That's so great!
On being the feminist in a group of guys, in response to Glass Mouse:
SpoilerI hear you, this is so hard. Even when the guys are good people, lots of people, especially men, just don't get feminism or are actively hostile towards it, and I find the rest of the group will usually go along with that.
My solution is to always be ready to fight my corner, but that is tough and draining, and doesn't work all the time because sometimes I'm tired and sick and there's too much sh**tiness. I can't and don't call out every sexist thing anyone says, because that would be waaaayy too much work. I do call out blatant things, or things from people who'd be receptive to me saying "Actually, that thing you just said was a bit yucky." Sometimes I've called things out and got backlash.
The most upsetting incident was when me, my partner and a good friend were watching Firefly, and my (sexist) housemate came in to watch it with us. Friend called something "Pimp!" at one point, meaning "Awesome!" and I was like "Uh, can you not use that word to mean awesome?" and he said "Sure, sure! Can I ask why?" I said "Well, I feel personally uncomfortable glorifying someone who sells women's bodies for sex*, it's a bit ... rape culture, isn't it?". Friend says "Oh, cool, I get it. Just wanted to know, that's fine!" Housemate goes "Rape culture? Pff. What does that even mean?". I shut the conversation down because I hate hate hate talking to this guy about stuff like this, because he's really contrary about it and sometimes openly very close to misogyny. Anyway, we kept watching, and the next episode was the one with the sex workers. I won't go into plot, but at one point a man in power abused a female sex worker in front of a group of men, and housemate goes, in really satisfied voice "Now THAT'S a rape culture!". Me: (Later, I had a really affirming chat with Friend about the whole thing, he was totally on side and completely understood where I was coming from, it was great!)
*I know there's a big debate in feminist circles about sex work. Suffice to say most sex workers are women and most sex workers are trafficked, especially those who work under a "pimp" rather than independently or as a group of equals.
Soooo... It's hard. It's hard and it kind of keeps being hard. I think it's difficult to avoid, if you're a feminist woman in a male-dominated or male-centred culture like nerddom is. It does get better, because a lot of people, when confronted with a real example of whomever they're prejudiced against (a feminist, an atheist, a toddler, a Jewish person) find it difficult to keep saying sweeping statements when that now includes their friend Kender (I am only one of the aforementioned things, but I am some other things!). And it's great when you find an ally, and even better when you talk someone around from not identifying with what you're talking about (equal treatment, applied regardless of gender) to realising that's something they can get behind, like Friend in the previous story.
And my PM box is always open to talk about feminist things, Glass Mouse!
That does seem to happen a lot, but I've usually more found that it's a perception. People who have never actually heard someone espouse a radical feminist view get the trickle-down effect from, I dunno, the media? People who don't like feminists? Someone who did get put off by a radical feminist? I have found almost everyone is pro equal rights. There is a significant group that thinks that means voting and stuff, and they want their hot wimminz in bikinis on ads and in waitressing jobs and fat b****s can stay at home because "That's just the way it is."
I feel sad that you have to protect yourself that way. I'm for whatever works to avoid harassment, but I think it's terrible you have to do it every day. I would do it if I had to, but I think I'd go mad if I worked in such an environment every day. The other thing that some women do, say for travelling, is buy themselves a ring and wear it as an engagement ring so they won't be propositioned.
Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me
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2012-04-15, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Last edited by pffh; 2012-04-15 at 11:14 AM.
"Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."
Thank you Geomancer for the Death avatar.
My lets plays:
Alien vs Predator: marine chapter - Completed
Singularity - Canceled
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2012-04-15, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Feminism
SpoilerThe casual sexism and ignorance in society is a terrible reality and you have nothing be sorry about for venting on it. Especially if you're fighting a lone battle against your own social circle just to be allowed to speak up against it.
You are not a freak or doing anything wrong by being a feminist and having trouble with getting to a solution. We are glad to let you vent and seek support among us, if I may speak so broadly.
I am quite terrible at being helpful, but have you tried looking for feminist groups around Denmark or feminist media online? I have not found any groups here myself, but blogs and podcasts have been very helpful when feeling alone.
I hope I could at least contribute a little bit. I apologise if I ended up making anything worse. m(_ _)m
I did not even realise that part of the attitude, thank you for pointing it out. Even if it is saddening.Treasured Quotes
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2012-04-15, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Hi~
Clothing, something subtle like a bracelet or another bit of jewelry could help. I know my gestures and way of acting have been changing a bit, but I think that's mostly cause of me feeling less policed (or rather, less willing to take it.).
Hi, Smee!
@Anon: I think it's best to come out when you feel comfortable about it, not because you think so. Maybe having a few conversation in the abstract about LGBT+ or something could ease the way you feel about it around them?
Am I mistaken or have you been gone for a while? Anyways, hugs!
That's awesome!
I have similar things happen too sometimes and it always feels very good and affirming. :3
Hi~
Re: feminism; I think it stems in large part from the fact that the flashy huge achievements like right to vote, job equality (well, not yet but at least getting closer) are already done in the eyes of a lot of folk.
Sexism (and the other isms, kyriarchy!) is very much a social thing as well, and as Kitty mentioned something of attitudes, which makes it a lot harder to deconstruct. (And incredibly frustrating; and I'm only "out" online, so I'm lucky enough to not have to deal with it being targeted at me. (Or rather not for being a girl; I used to / still get some flack for being "femmy".) And that's why feminism is so important in dealing with all the -isms, because complacency is very dangerous. The same thing happens with for example racism.
And it's also very annoying how people who oppose feminism have done a job of painting feminism as "anti-fun", "spoilsports", etc... which are very dangerous attitudes. I wish very nasty things on the person who coined the term "feminazi".
And that's why it's important to keep bringing these issues to attention and spreading positive attitudes. Because a lot of misogyny works on very subtle levels and is ingrained from very young.
I'll never judge someone for doing something that keeps them safer. I wish our world was a decent enough place that you wouldn't have to; but it isn't. :/
It's sorta comparable to LGBT+ folks being out? Because more out people helps the "cause", but no-one should ever feel forced to be out. (Which is also why it annoys me when stuff happens with people calling people out to be out (odd phrasing, I know.) because they very much ignore the stuff every individual might have to deal with.)
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Queereka did a duo of articles about 13 misconceptions about aces like they did for trans women.
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2012-04-15, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Funny you're telling this today, because we've spent part of the afternoon at my boyfriend's grandmother place, and there also was his aunt there (who I generally appreciate a lot).
SpoilerAt one point, while talking about jobs and money, this exchange happens (she's in bold, BF in italics):
"So, as they say, we're gonna have to skin a Jew :D"
"... huuuuh... I did not know that saying."
"Well, you know! "Skin a Jew"."
"You're aware her father was Jewish, right?"
"Oh, but I don't mean anything bad! It's like everything else they say with Jews and money, "Jews have big noses because breathing air is free"... even though I'm sure there's plenty who are broke, you know, they deal with money and all."
"... *changes topic* by the way, did you know her father was antisemitic too? :D;;*"
"*embraces the topic change*"
Okay, not LGBT+ or feminism related, but honestly, it felt very similar in terms of casual prejudice that hurts me and that's difficult to fight. She's not a bad person at all, but it just wasn't the right time to tell her everything that was wrong with what she said, even jokingly.
*which is true, and a subject I vastly prefer in virtue of its ridiculousness and lack of actual harm involved. He didn't make these "funny" jokes, and his hate was only really targeted toward his own family... but I'm digressing
There's so much prejudice that's part of cultural jokes... with all the bad subtext that comes with it... don't know where to start. So annoying to hear we're being killjoys just for pointing out specific series of word are problematic (even when you tell people that it doesn't just hurt people hypothetically, it actually hurts you personally).Last edited by Mono Vertigo; 2012-04-15 at 01:47 PM.
Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-04-15, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I tend to disapprove of this sort of thing. I find it evades trouble for you short term, but tends to raise troubles down the line for both you and others (if, say down the line your coworkers find out you're in a straight relationship it contributes to both gay and bi denial).
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2012-04-15, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I agree. You're only going to avoid trouble if you're lucky, and next time a lesbian enters the workplace (or maybe even someone like you who has other reasons to be uninterested than sexual orientation), she's gonna have a hard time, and you'll have arguably have something to do with the worsening of their situation. Their attitude will be much less negative if you're being honest and make the effort to educate them, even if they don't understand.
Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-04-15, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
It's not inherently sexist, it's the vast and gaping divide between the sheer numbers of ads using sexy ladies compared to the number of ads using sexy dudes (Aimed towards men? Sexy lady! Aimed towards women? Sexy lady!), plus how they're typically portrayed. It is very possible to advertise in a pro-woman way using attractive women, it's just also possible to not, while using attractive men. Perhaps ads are worse for it here than they are where you are.
Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me
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2012-04-15, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I think that if I were a woman, I'd certainly be a feminist. However, being a man, the only thing I can do is tell other men to watch what they say.
It's also the only reason I hang out with girls, not because I'm attracted to them (I don't have a word for that, I suppose it's just maybe one or two girls out there), but because I think most men are slimy, foul-mouthed, crude douche-bags.
In other words, I support women's rights as if I were a woman. I'm quite proud of it, too, because I was able to talk many men out of saying some horrible stuff about women in the middle of class.
It's because the girls at my school who are doing it are doing it for the shock-and-awe effect, and to get guys to desire them more. The claim to be bisexual, most of the time, however.
But I didn't know what to do in my last relationship, and I took everything too quickly. It got to the point where I realized I did something wrong, and by then, it was too late. She drops the claim, says we have to break up, and I'm left sobbing in my bedroom for Spring Break.
So I apologized to her on Friday, told her I screwed up, and that I want to try again. She listened to me, and I think it's going to get better.
My point is, I know girls want the safety it brings, but when all girls at the school claim it, that safety is gone. Guys aren't stupid, they know when a girl is doing it so guys will leave them alone, or so they can shock their friends and family. After a while, it stops working.
I've found guys, like girls, to be attractive. But very few (fewer than girls, seeing how irritated I am by most men) I actually view that way.Last edited by Triscuitable; 2012-04-15 at 01:16 PM.
Steam username is Triscuitable.
I got VAC banned in COD: Ghosts for using an FOV changer.
I try not to think of how sad that is.
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2012-04-15, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Ugh, that sounds really horrible. :c
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Reminds me of a tad of casual racism I had myself just a few moments ago while driving to dorms. There was a person of Turkish descent on a popular gameshow apparently, and the host made a few racist jokes (eg, not being able to pronounce their name, and then going "couldn't you have picked a Flemish name, asking if they knew a certain song and then going "Oh, nevermind, you don't have tv's in Turkey do you?" and I got angry about that. But apparently why my mom brought it up was because there was some outcry over it coming from the Netherlands and my family couldn't understand that... It's really frustrating how much people think "it's a joke, therefore it can't be harmful.")
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2012-04-15, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Yeah that sort of attitude is not helpful for women, men or anyone really. You are young and if I'm remembering correctly still in the middle of the hormone fueled age where I'll agree that many boys and girls will become quite stereotypical but casual generalizing like that are just as bad when done about men as when they are done about women.
Last edited by pffh; 2012-04-15 at 01:42 PM.
"Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."
Thank you Geomancer for the Death avatar.
My lets plays:
Alien vs Predator: marine chapter - Completed
Singularity - Canceled
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2012-04-15, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Yeah...I hate the whole gay/bi denial thing, but it sort of feels like whatever I do I'm contributing to something, you know? I honestly do not want to be in a relationship any time in the near future. I'm happy on my own like this. And I'm just in a position where I don't feel like that's an ok choice. Not that it's one I'm not ok with. But it's one the people around me aren't ok with. I feel like my existence is taken as a personal insult to the single men around me.
Particularly since I feel like...I dunno, I feel like no matter what I do I contribute to something I don't want to, because no matter what I do it's seen as a statement about women in general or professional women or gay women or abuse survivors or whatever group someone's decided to assign me to. I can't just make choices that are about me. If I stay single for no reason, I'm contributing to the idea that women can't have careers and families, or that abuse survivors can't have romantic relationships, or that all feminists don't want marriage. If I say I'm a lesbian I'm contributing to erasure. I just want to make a choice because it's what I want and not have to deal with what everyone else thinks and feels about me for once.
And I learned long ago that "I don't want a relationship" is not and will never be a reason. I want to focus on my work, not on what the men around me want from me.Last edited by WarKitty; 2012-04-15 at 01:46 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-04-15, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
@Astrella: hurr durr, making fun of foreigners is funny. Even when these foreigners and people making casual racism were actually born in the same country. :/
Ah, the Jewish agenda. My grandmother's such a jerk. She fled her country, lost her whole family during WWII, never heard of them again, and still spends days looking at old films and pictures in case she recognizes one of them... and she never told me where them Jews hide their secret gold! I think I'm gonna take part to the gay agenda instead and convert people to the goodness of breasts or well-muscled abs. Much more fun project.
(Side note: I was so upset the grammar in my previous post was horrendous. Please disregard it.)
It's those people who are selfish in trying to impose their narrow views on you, not you, here.
I know saying this won't make them any less pressuring, but... there's a point where one needs to stop trying to please the others, and just ignore them. I went there, and my happiness depended (still does) on my ability to privilege my own well-being for once and be honest with myself.Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-04-15, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Sounds to me like you are a feminist! Thinking women's rights are important and that women aren't inherently inferior to men? That's feminism. Standing up when someone says something sexist? That's feminism. Believing people deserve the same rights regardless of gender? Feminism. You're free to identify as such. Some people don't want to, as discussed here, but I know men who openly identify as feminist and others who personally identify as such but probably wouldn't shout it out in the middle of a football game.
Pffh is right, though. Sure, a bunch of privileged (privileged enough to go to school anyway) teenage boys can be real jerks. So can a bunch of privileged teenage girls. Or anyone else. I know it can be tough, but try not to judge "men" and "women" by the people who immediately surround you that have been dumped in together based largely on age and geographical location while souped up on hormonal changes.
Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me
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2012-04-15, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Allow me to rephrase that: I have a lot of male friends, but a lot of the guys I see at the school treat women like second-class citizens. Most of my guy-friends are very reasonable, and don't talk about sex all day.
It's people who obsess over sex that really drive me up the wall.Steam username is Triscuitable.
I got VAC banned in COD: Ghosts for using an FOV changer.
I try not to think of how sad that is.
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2012-04-15, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Feminism is about gender equality and th efight against sexism. It is named for it's origin in the Women's Rights movements, but it isn't limited to that nor limited only to female-identified individuals. A man, gender-queer, agender or a sentient potted plant can all be feminists just as well as a woman.
And speaking out against sexist statements is not a small thing at all! ^_^
;_;
Nobody should have to feel like every choice will automatically contribute to something. Especially not if it's completely unrelated, like choosing to be single because you want to.
The entire point of fighting these preconceptions is supposed to allow people to have other choices as well, it is not working at all if it just makes those choices the only acceptable ones. I think choosing what you want would be the best way to not contribute to the preconceptions.
PS: NinjaKender and NinjaMusashi said it much better than I ever could. ^_^'Treasured Quotes
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2012-04-15, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Thanks a lot, guys! I hadn't really realized exactly how alone I felt in this until I brought it here. You rock!
SpoilerIt's silly, but hearing that someone as articulate, rational and knowledgeable as you have these problems actually helps a lot. It sucks that you meet it as well, but... eh, it's silly. It just makes me feel less stupid.
I'm only just starting to bring it up, and I'm very, very careful about it. I'm starting out by writing to myself, learning to articulate my thoughts (I just counted - I have almost 7,000 words on this subject by now... heh). But I'm slowly segueing it into actual conversation.
I'm actually starting to withdraw from nerd culture a little more because of this. Much of my love for fantasy and RPGs has been quelled. Thank god I've never been into video games, or I'd have those ruined as well. It's like the polar bear in Toblerone... once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Also, your housemate is a jerk and an idiot. Your friend is cool, though.
I'm thinking of doing a blog thing on this, just to have somewhere to put the 7,000 words (and whatever comes later). But it'll be a discovery blog most of all - me bumbling my way through this. I'm not sure if that'd be worth doing.
And thanks a lot for the PM offer
As has been pointed out, it's because women are used much more frequently than men.
It's a concept called the male gaze. The idea is basically that in most media, the man is the observer while the woman is the observed. Sexuality and attractiveness are filtered through the heterosexual male's eyes. Women learn to view themselves as decoration, while men learn to view themselves as actors.
SpoilerThanks a lot, Keveak. You made nothing worse, on the contrary - your post made me smile
I've been thinking about it, but I have no idea where such groups exist. I'm also a bit hesitant about it because I'm... actually not that good around girls. I tend to be socially clumsy, too logical and all-around blundering.
But it's worth looking into. I wonder if my school has something like this. Seems like it would.
I'm actually looking for blogs and such to educate myself. Do you have any links to spare?
*nod, nod* I think you're right on all accounts.
I can't help but wonder if - thirty years from now - people will look back on us and shake their heads at the "guys can't wear dresses" paradigm, just like we do now with "women can't vote". It's a soothing thought, at least.
Hurr hurr racism is funny
On the killjoy thing... I think the hurt comes from the reminder that the joke material is an actual thing. Being reminded about things that hurt can be healing and great in many ways (which is why dark humor exists), but the thing about humor is that there's always a hint of seriousness in there.
So when two people who come from the same place joke about something hurtful, there's a sense of "we're in this together, and we're moving on!"
When two people who come from very different places joke about something hurtful, there's just so many things that are off, especially when there's a power difference. The possibility that the powerful "joker" could mean what s/he says, the insensitivity of the "joker" not understanding the subject at all, the "we're different" reminder, etc.
You don't joke about other people's dead relatives. It's the same dynamic in play here.
That's great. The world needs more male, non-white-knighting feminists!
Everything ties into something else. The way we talk, the way we act, the way we tie our shoelaces... it all comes from something, and it all influences something. I think you're smart to draw the line where it hurts you too much to be socially conscious.
It needs to be drawn somewhere, after all.Spoiler
Challenge badge, courtesy of HeadlessMermaid.
Avatar courtesy of the talented Neoriceisgood. Features Pumpkin from my webcomic.
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2012-04-15, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- Land of Fans and Music
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I've been reading this thread about this page and even though it's about GKC I feel it would be more appropriate to ask here; does anyone else detect contempt for hetero-romance? In context it seems to be mainly about the fact that the closest thing to a homosexual relationship is in the "weird" characters, and resentment over feelings that the author is teasing romantic feelings between the two female leads. Am I missing something or what?
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2012-04-15, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
- Location
- Leeds
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2012-04-15, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- Dublin, Ireland
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Glass Mouse:
SpoilerGlad we could help!
Thanks for saying so! I'm really glad you told us, there's nothing as good as having allies who have gone or are going through the same thing to keep you from going mad from this stuff! Same goes for any "minority" problem, I think!
Bolded part is so true! I have a friend who used to be anti-feminist (despite being a female who desired an independent career and respect as a person, but whatever), she even used the word "feminazi". We (myself and another dyed in the wool feminist, R) talked her around and now she rings us to complain that she can't unsee things she never noticed before!
Writing is a good way to hash through this stuff. For me, it was reading websites, blogs and articles. I just read and read. For R, it was reading traditional feminist literature. So she's a bit more second-wave and I'm a bit more third-wave (although I have a strong second-wave upbringing from my mother).
Try googling your town and "feminism"? Or hang around the gender section of the library and pounce on people! I made feminist friends by accident (as in, I made friends with people, some of whom turned out to be feminist) and once there was two of us (me and R), we kind of brought it out in E, N, K (the initially reluctant one!), J and B, so now we've got a group. In fact, it's a well-organised group. Okay, organised-ish, since I'm the one who gathers us for meetings and I'm so busy at the moment, but we'll get back to it! It's great to be able to chat to other people about this stuff. If you're with a nice person, especially a liberal woman, just throw in something like "Ugh, what about that ad? Makes the feminist in me weep!". If they're not on board, they'll go "Mmh, yeah." But now and then you get "Oh my gosh, I know, right?! I saw this AWFUL one the other day ..." and Bingo! New feminist ally!
That would be fantastic! Here's hoping!
I definitely agree. I find the whole joke thing difficult, because you can't say "All jokes about Jews are forbidden!". That'll just make people make jokes about joking about Jews, or jokes about how the Jews can't take a joke, or whatever, and is also silly. But there is such a difference between a joke that touches on or uses a difficult topic and a joke in which the punchline is basically "Because Jews/women/black people/lesbians are inherently inferior in some way!" Ha ha, never heard that before.
I'm not sure. I think any time the main character (in anything) shows interest in a new character, the people who (inevitably) ship the main character with their best friend will be angry, and in this case, they could just be explaining to themselves that the author is going with the new person instead of the best friend out of cowardice for having a gay relationship. Because to them, Annie/Kat is so obvious there must be a reason NOT to do it, whereas for Tom, he just doesn't see their relationship that way. But then, it's possible this person just hates the breeders, who knows?
Also, on the topic, Gunnerkrigg Court is amazing! And good feminist reading!
Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me
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2012-04-15, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Tackleford
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
...Wow, what? I think in honesty a Kat/Annie ending would just be really, really wrong. Not to mention stupid as hell - GKC is fundametally a comic about cool stuff that happens, not schoolgirl lesbians. It's been made clear by the characters and the author that it'll never happen, and this person still throws a hissy-fit?
Much of my indignation is from the fact that they're defaming one of the best webcomics on the internet. There's no ship-teasing at all, that I've noticed - yes, they're close friends of the ages of about 13-14, (I think, my memory of the English year-system in schools is a bit off) and to be honest some of the "OH MY GOD LOOK AT THE LOVE BETWEEN THEM IN THIS SCENE " is platonic, and also pretty accurate.
Gamma and Zimmy are the only portrayed gay characters that we know of, yes - but the relationship between them is shown as nothing but positive, and a stabilising force on poor Zimmy. Hell, if you wanted to you could see the whole "awful no-face hellscape Birmingham" situation as an allegory for homophobia and rejection by society for what she fundamentally is, with Gamma being able to defend Zimmy and make the world all okay again.
tl;dr PEOPLE ARE WRONG ON THE INTERNET
ALSO : NEWS
This thread makes me think of eastenders, I've just got the image of ricky and bianca shouting one anothers names, incessantly.
And I've totally got a boyfriend, he's mine and I can kiss him whenever I like. This is novel.Everything I say is 100% TRUTH*
*may contain traces of lie
Loki avatar by Dr.Bath.
(I totally ship him and Curly. But shhh, it's a secret.)
Formerly known as Aziraphale.
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2012-04-15, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
"Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."
Thank you Geomancer for the Death avatar.
My lets plays:
Alien vs Predator: marine chapter - Completed
Singularity - Canceled
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2012-04-15, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG
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2012-04-15, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Yes, that is true
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
Ooh, that's a good point! I remember when my sis painted my nails... We had to remove the paint after, but they looked so cool.
It'd be bad at about the fiftieth - and that's not even half to the first
*Glomp!* ^_^
In December, all I knew was that SRS existed and that some people had it, but now I almost envy how much struggle they have to go through, howmuch pain they have to endure to become themselves, to be who they really are. I nearly envy all their problems, not because they go through them, but because they have the strength to surpass them. I am so overjoyed when they accomplish something they set out to do. I know that sometimes it sucks, sometimes can bring about thoughts of suicide, but the fight is a long, long struggle. And I guess I'm slightly masochistic like that. Would explain my romantic situation and my tendency to dwell on an unrequited attraction.
Good point... *Glomps Turkishproverb*
That's awesome!
I have similar things happen too sometimes and it always feels very good and affirming. :3
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2012-04-15, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- Växjö, Sweden
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
I wish I could talk about gender issues and similar topics without becoming political about it...
But I will try.
In Sweden, kindergartens (at least the municipal ones) now have to follow "gender pedagogics" (= genuspedagogik, dunno if I'm using the correct word for it in English). While this for good intentions, there are some stuff I take issue with. For example that some kindergartens are more "extreme" than others, like forbidding and taking away toy cars and dolls, because those are "gendered" toys, and that's bad, m'kay?
There are other stuff I have problem with, but writing about them require me to use big words that will probably give me infraction points.
PS. Re-starting Firefox took away a post I wanted to make with replies, some from the previous edition of the thread.
PSS. I can't find my god damn pocket calendar. I need it! It got dates and my mobile phone number and other stuff!
PSSS. If it wasn't for you guys and gals and in-between and beyond, and some of those at the Facebook Chat Page, especially my dearest Skeppio, I would feel very alone and life would seem much more pointless.
That's awesome AND great!
I'm so happy for you!Viking/Paladin by Astrella
Gender Bender by Geomancer.
In love with Skeppio.
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