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2012-05-02, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
No?
Unholy Blight also affects Neutral characters. Not as much as good ones, but they *are* affected. So I'm not seeing a problem in that early comic which purpose was to show Belkar was evil (and the others, including Vaarsuvius, are not evil).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyBlight.htmSer Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-02, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I am somewhat hesitant to support the martial adept hypothesis without some more research. The Tome of Battle to my knowledge has never been used extensively in the comic, and remains a somewhat fringe mechanic in the 3.5 ruleset (much like psionics). By Occam's Razor I'd suggest completely ruling out the possibility of more regular builds before admitting ToB stuff.
So far it seems the only part of Tarquin's routine not easily explainable by simple fighter feats is the "dwarf throwing".The vast majority of what Tarquin is doing can very easily be explained by a relatively straightforward AoO/intelligent fighter build.
Panel by panel:
Panel 1. Roy attacks, T dodges (Roy fails his attack roll due to T's Dex or Dodge bonus to AC) - nothing special here, except we know T has a measurable Dex/Dodge AC bonus;
Panel 2. Since Roy's attack is now "resolved", Robilar's Gambit kicks in, and T performs an AoO vs. Roy. He chooses to use the AoO to perform a trip attack (successfully). Since this trip attempt does not provoke an AoO from Roy, Tarquin likely has the Improved Trip feat.
Panel 4. Quick Draw + Deflect Arrows + Snatch Arrow, as pointed out before.
Panel 5. Hold the Line. Tarqin uses his AoO vs. charging Belkar to stab him with the arrow (improvised melee weapon).
Panel 6. Tarquin makes his save, or has immunity to enchantments.
Panel 7. Having cast a spell in Tarquin's threatened space, Durkon provokes an AoO from Tarquin, who chooses to use it to throw Durkon.
This is probably the only part of the sequence where no easy answer comes to mind. Fling Enemy can be taken by a medium creature with Powerful Build and rock hurling (hulking hurler levels?). There's even this amazing picture in Races of Stone:
which seems to illustrate the concept of "person throwing" quite well (Fling Ally in this case). With a little creative tinkering (and maybe a specially crafted magic item that duplicates the effects of "powerful build"), this feat could have been adapted for Tarquin's use in Rich's universe.
Of course, I'm not saying Tarquin can't have martial adept levels - actually, it would have been cool to see ToB mechanics introduced into the comic by such an awesome character.
So the "dwarf toss" is either a regular combat feat/ability that we simply haven't yet put our fingers on, or a few martial adept levels thrown in Tarquin's deadly multiclass mix.
What I wouldn't do, though, is assume Tarquin is principally a martial adept. In that case he would have probably been using maneuvers much more extensively, rather than Fighter feat chains (martial adepts are quite starved for feats as compared to Fighters), and like I said, all of his actions with a singe exception so far are explainable by Fighter feats.
Cheers.Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-02 at 08:38 AM.
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2012-05-02, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
If you want to go for rules, I'd explain "Toss Dwarf" with a mundane Grapple Check, maybe disguised as a Improved Trip (getting the enemy to lose his sense for a moment) plus the application of inhuman Str (assuming Tarquin has the Str of a Fighter (16ish) which is improved by some item by +6 this really does not seem unlikely).
As DM, I do not see why I should disallow such a combat move. "Ok, you have your enemy... uh... 'grappled by the beard' and have Str 24+ and now want to throw him? Sure, make an opposed Str check, if you win, you can throw the enemy."Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-02, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
It would be extremely premature to make any positive statements about Tarquin's class.
He isn't any "can't be Lawful" or "can't be Evil" class. He is probably not a wizard. That's as far as we should go on the evidence to date.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-02, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
He is definitely a class with full BAB
I Am A:Neutral Good Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-11
Constitution-16
Intelligence-16
Wisdom-12
Charisma-16
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2012-05-02, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
All we can really say for certain about Tarquin based on this comic is that he has Snatch Arrows or a magic item that duplicates it. For everything else, there are multiple possible explanations with none clearly better than the rest, so we can only speculate and suggest possible explanations to be refined later when more evidence is available. I think it's also safe to say he's got Combat Reflexes, but I'm not sure it's absolutely proven yet.
Tome of Battle is considerably further afield than OotS usually goes for source material, but Tarquin is specifically noted as knowledgeable on a large number of obscure combat techniques so I think it's much more reasonable for him to use Tome of Battle and other uncommon splatbooks than usual for the comic. For any other character I would be very hesitant to suggest martial adept levels without more direct proof, but for Tarquin it just makes so much sense that I think it's very likely. He probably only has a few levels in ToB classes, though, as my impression of him is that he's probably heavily multiclassed in the pursuit of versatility and mastering the basics of as many different combat techniques as possible.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2012-05-02, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Of the base classes, he is not:
- Barbarian
- Bard
- Cleric
- Druid
- Paladin
- Sorcerer
- Wizard
That's already 7/11 we can completely exclude.
He does not show any signs associated with monks - and how Rich shows half-monks we have seen in Miko; furthermore, Tarquin does not show the usual traits we tie into monks (yes, he has discipline). I'm convinced enough there's no monk in him, so I am at 8/11 (you might still be 7/11).
He seems to very versatile at fighting, so at least a large part of his build are classes with high BAB, that leaves Ranger and Fighter as the "base" build.
Given he has not shown any nature-traits but claimed he is skilled in "many obscure fighting techniques" this does not really point towards "Ranger" in big letters.
Therefore, I find it safe enough to conclude his base-build is Fighter. If there might be rogue (he's actually dodgy and quick enough for that, it'd also explain where he got skillpoints he lacks as fighter) or whatever-strange-prcs are mixed in is actually impossible to decide at this point.
We cannot decide a lot, but I also think we are very far from "unable" to make any estimates on his class.
As a working hypothesis, I find it assumable he "stays in the family" and consider him to be some "Bard without the arcane"-build, consisting of Fighter/Rouge/Some Schemer-Friendly PrC.
Also, as he just outclasses the Order, we should assume his level is "significantly above the Order's", so that'd put him near 20 (I'm not yet saying he has to be epic; I just say he surely is not 15ish).Last edited by Winter; 2012-05-02 at 09:42 AM.
Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-02, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-02, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
He was. Rich wrote V to be Good until about 10 - 50 strips in. We don't know when exactly he changed his mind, but it was apparently early enough in the process he later forgot he had ever intended her to be good. I think, officially, he has stated that V should be considered a neutral character from the get-go, despite that not being his original intention.
Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-05-02 at 10:58 AM.
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-02, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Rich built a fairly Standard Team there.
Good Fighter, Good Cleric (Dwarf), Good (even if that makes no real sense for what is shown) Rogue, Good Bard, Evil Comic Relief (with the twist it's a Halfling).
And the Party Wizard.
One Alignment is still missing.
No, unless you have better proof, do not see why we should assume Vaarsuvius wasn't always planned as "Not good, but also not evil". You're overinterpreting the art of the early comic (which point was only to show who of the team was evil).
Apart from that: The prequel also shows him with the very same character traits we saw lateron.
So, let's not put our weight on the first 20 strips, let's rather look at the prequel books. Vaarsuvius was neutral before the story and, as such, also in the comic linked.
What Rich had planned is beyond our telling now, it's my estimate vs. yours, but that does not matter as the prequel pretty much sets the in-comic truth for the Time Before The Comic.Last edited by Winter; 2012-05-02 at 10:58 AM.
Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-02, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Rich said, way back when the Unholy Blight strip appeared, that it demonstrated that all the members of the Order except Belkar were good.
Some time later, he said that his posts on the board aren't canon and he specifically doesn't want to be bound by that one ("Nyah nyah").
I can't prove either; there is probably a way to retrieve them still, but I don't know how, and they're old enough to be impervious to most normal search methods.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-02, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Now, that's something I can accept.
Luckily, the prequel books still clean up with that. Unless "good" is defined in very strange ways.Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
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2012-05-02, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Okay, this is entirely unrelated to present discussions, but I see that the evidence for saying Belkar has at least three magical daggers is comic 611. However, I only see two daggers in that comic. Can someone clarify this for me?
Fair enough. Elan, then. With a level 11 start, he's 13 as well. (With a level 7-9 start, we can safely throw out the possibility of Roy reaching level 16 anyway, so I'm not particularly concerned about that.) I REALLY don't think Roy would dispute that he's more responsible for the battle's outcome than Elan, though.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-02 at 01:44 PM.
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2012-05-02, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-02, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I don't claim to know what Rich thinks about a specific rule. But, then again, I am not the one saying - based in my personal interpretation of rules - that it's impossible that Roy is 16+. That's the argument people keep using to disprove my point: "Roy can not possibly be at the same level (or higher) 'cause we haven't seen him earning enough XP". The only reason I keep speculating about possible ways that he could gain XP while dead is to disprove that kind of argument.
Yes, I think that's possible to Roy to earn XP in heaven. But my point remains largely unrelated with the exact moment in which Roy gathered enough XP to DING. I don't have that idea based in counting XPs. I based my idea in: 1) my gut-feeling about the relation between competence and levels) and 2) four attacks per round in #795. The second is rooted in both rules and comics and it is enough, by itself, to describe Roy as a 16+ character (the same way a single black swan can be used to prove that the assertion "all swans are white" is false). Sure, we can always discuss the mentioned strip. So far, no one has addressed the elements I have pointed out in previous posts; hence, I have nothing to add. This post is long enough as it is.
On the other hand, my gut-feelings that competence is related with levels are nothing but a admittedly subjective opinion and I am more than willing to let them go, if presented with enough evidence to the contrary. Instead, people keep arguing that's "there's no proof that Roy has earned enough XP to level". Well, counting XPs awarded in OotS is an pointless exercise, most of the time. It has been already pointed out that XPs and DINGs are often mentioned as forms of metahumor (the only plot-relevant mention to XP that I remember happens in SoD, explaining the creation of goblins, orcs and etc - am I wrong here?). If the evidence against my gut-feeling that you have to offer are probabilistic reasoning based in incomplete observations and barely relevant rules... then I'll have to stick with my gut-feelings.
You're entitled to your opinion. But, if you just says something like that and do not explain why you say it, you can not claim to have "objectively better" evidences.Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-02 at 01:51 PM.
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2012-05-02, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Actually, if you look at most of the arguments, none of them mention XP at all. Only levels. I'm certainly not counting XP here. I don't have to count XP to show that Roy being level 17+ (your original contention) is inconsistent with the rest of the comic according to the rules. I know zimmerwald brought up counting XP as a way to demonstrate that Roy almost certainly hasn't leveled up twice since his resurrection, but that's hardly central to the discussion.
When rejecting someone's arguments, it helps to use their actual arguments, rather than attempting a vague and incorrect summary--one might even say "strawman".
I already explained it to you using more words and more arguments. I mean, feel free to pretend that didn't happen, but anyone can look back through our post history and see it.
There are two questions here: "Is that an attack from Roy?", and "Is it in the same round as the following panels"?
The answer to the first question is unclear. Both characters are in attacking positions--well, except that Roy's sword swing is nowhere near where Thog would be without blocking, whereas Thog's axe is on a path to Roy without blocking. We've seen attacks without blue lines and blue-lined weapon movements that aren't attacks, so that's not sufficient evidence either.
The answer to the second question is also unclear. Typically, in cases where a full attack is shown, it's done in one panel--for example, we can estimate Belkar's and Miko's levels by looking at their iterative attacks with their main hand. There are at least two known and accepted instance where a full attack was split across multiple panels, but they're so completely obvious that it could not possibly be interpreted any other way. The continuous attacks in the same position without any change in position from any other character are generally good evidence for that.
The same reasoning certainly applies to the latter two panels you cite in #795--Roy making continuous attacks with Thog using his axe to block, and Roy finally breaking through on the third attack. However, the first panel has both characters in entirely different positions, set up so one can't even tell who's attacking. It is, OBJECTIVELY, weak evidence.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-02 at 02:34 PM.
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2012-05-02, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-02, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I would like to make a return to the first post to talk about Roy's level here:
If we take the given numbers as lower bounds, the only potential flaw I see in this analysis is placing Thog at 13+, which may be too high. However, we do know, from other sources, that Thog is 11+. I'm not D&D savvy enough to say whether or not that would still be enough to put Roy at 13+, and I would like the thread's input on this.
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2012-05-02, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-02, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Ah, there it is. Thanks.
If Thog is a level below Roy, it isn't enough XP to be certain. But we have no reason to believe that Thog is lower level than Roy--11+ is just the confirmation we have from three attacks in a full attack, and that was four hundred strips before the arena fight.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-02 at 05:13 PM.
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2012-05-03, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-03, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy's level
We do have to assume that characters aren't lying when they refer to another character's stats, and that they do know what they're talking about; because if we don't, then this thread doesn't have a lot of information to work from any more.
We make the occasional exception if something is clearly a joke (e.g. Elan calling Roy a "future psychic") but in general a character's statements about another character are acceptable evidence for this thread.
I don't think it's proven yet that Tarquin is a Tome of Battle character, but note that SSDT tells us these classes exist in the OOTS world, so if his dwarf-tossing is best explained with the maneuver Whirlwind Throw, then that's fair game. But perhaps another 3E splatbook offers a different explanation?Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2012-05-03, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-03, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy's level
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2012-05-03, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I was reading the last comic (851) and trying to translate to in core material. I can't, but I think I can do with some SRD help.
For me, the three first panels are an example of sidestep charge (prety subpar feat, but the description is exactly what we see at panel 2) and Improved Trip (Roy dosen't gain AdO).
In the two next panel wee see Snatch arrow and use the arrow as improvised weapon (there are some precedents in comic), this can be a use of Snatch Arrow (depends on the DM) or that Tarquin have a feat like Hold the line or something, wich implies he have Combat Reflex.
And we arrive at the Tarquin main action (since now we only see AdO and free actions), he grab Durkon and żuse as improvised weapon? I don't know how grab him (because don't look like a pin) AND throw him in the same round (Grapple as atack 1 and throw as imporvised weapon as atack 2 in a full combat round?)
Wow, it's a very impresive round, really.
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2012-05-03, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Probably the best way to start would have been to take note of the several attempts to do that already, including a panel-by-panel one on this very page.
For me, the three first panels are an example of sidestep charge (prety subpar feat, but the description is exactly what we see at panel 2) and Improved Trip (Roy dosen't gain AdO).
In the two next panel wee see Snatch arrow and use the arrow as improvised weapon (there are some precedents in comic), this can be a use of Snatch Arrow (depends on the DM) or that Tarquin have a feat like Hold the line or something, wich implies he have Combat Reflex.
And we arrive at the Tarquin main action (since now we only see AdO and free actions), he grab Durkon and żuse as improvised weapon? I don't know how grab him (because don't look like a pin) AND throw him in the same round (Grapple as atack 1 and throw as imporvised weapon as atack 2 in a full combat round?)
Why Durkon didn't cast his spell from range (or moved away and then cast it) is anybody's guess, my bet would be to show off Tarquin's mad AoO skillz.
Wow, it's a very impresive round, really.
I guess what really blew Tarquin's mind was the idea that Elan is actually not keen on engaging him in dramatic 1-on-1 combat, thereby sinking the "ideal final standoff between father and son" which Tarquin seems to be aiming for.Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-03 at 08:09 AM.
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2012-05-03, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Sidestep Charge is a pretty good find, and I agree that it looks like what he's doing, so I'm currently considering putting that in, along with its prerequisite Dodge. Hold the Line (and Combat Reflexes) is another good ingame explaination for how he handles Belkar.
Before I enter Improved [Combat Maneuver] feats, we need to decide something: As I previously mentioned, before my initial stewardship Nale was once shown as having Improved Disarm after this comic, but then a discussion arose about whether whether Rich's portrayal of such maneuvers was proof of their requisite feat, and the conclusion at the time was that not showing an attack of opportunity was not evidence of the feat, so Improved Disarm was removed. If that conclusion is still in effect, we couldn't give Tarquin improved trip here. I've said before it makes sense to revisit our assumptions, so what do you guys think: Should we now assume the disarmee/tripee/graplee not making an AoO means the disarmer/triper/grapler has the Improved [action] feat, or should we continue needing other proof of it?
I am not currently sold on Tarquin being a Tome of Battle class. I agree that thematically it works for him, and he may yet be revealed to be one and I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think the throw can be used as conclusive proof. Complete Warrior has a class that is all about throwing things, and even in core this could be a creative use of Improved Grapple and abusing the throw-at-a-square rules that Throwing a Splash Weapon provides.
As an aside, I'm rather enjoying Tarquin's style. He's all about the counterattack and it works for him. Good job!"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
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2012-05-03, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-03, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-03, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I don't think the Dwarftoss, or at least the Dwarven Beardgrab part of it, was an AoO, because previous spell related AoOs like O-Chul stopping Xykon's Meteor Swarm take place mid-spellcast. In this case Durkon successfully cast the spell, it just had no effect, allowing Tarquin's elegant rebuttal.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
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