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2012-05-23, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-05-23, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Sure they do, they're only human. You can't ask people to stop being human - even the Astartes are guilty of one or two of those emotions.
It's a bit of a big step from being angry at your shift manager to directly serving Khorne though.
He basically did.
Horus was their vessel, and he didn't just beat him: He removed his very soul from existence, in both the Aether and the Material.
Did he use Holocaust? Probably.
And, yeah, the big E probably knew he'd become some sort of weird God type thing if people believed in him...
However... he did not want this to happen, at least not immediately.
If he dies and goes Star Child, that may have some negative consequences that he knew of, that we are not yet aware of. Creating a fifth Chaos God, utterly different from the Emperor seems likely.
Lets see the outcome of round 1.
Chaos gods? still sitting in the warp having fun toying with the lifes of mortals.
Emperor?
Stuck in a near-death state he proberly wont recover from, while his dream of an age of light and reason has been corruped to a degree where it isnt visibel anymore.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-05-23, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Vermont, USA
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
You're talking about round 2.
Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.
Emperor's plan was actually pretty ****ing brilliant. The only flaw in it was not giving the details to the primarchs, so they knew what the ACTUAL goal of galactic unification was. Not just the stated goal.Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.
On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.
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2012-05-23, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Where Heaven meets Terra
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2012-05-24, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Ho Chi Minh City
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2012-05-24, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.
Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.
EDIT: So is most of Cypher's bad-arsery. The second greatest tool of the C'Tan, destined to unhinge Chaos whilst simultaneously bring the return of the Emperor (assuming by Shanking him with C'Tan blade, which Cypher lost). Besides, the HH series gives Cypher new fluff (and the Dark Angels books are terrible).
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2012-05-24, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
He also destroyed the only possible vessel for the Chaos Gods in the galaxy.
Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.
And that still leaves the chaos gods free to continue as before, while the emperor is stuck drooling in a wheelchair.
Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.
The evidence lies in Slanash, who were born and empowered without any actual worship besides dedication to his portfolio.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-05-24, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-05-24, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)
He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.
I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?
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2012-05-24, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-24, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-05-24, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
'Sort of', being the operative phrase. What Thorians are actually trying to do is find a super-saint. Kind of like a Champion of the Emperor in opposition to Abbadon. One such a person - they believe - was Sebastian Thor, hence the name.
Only crazy people actually want to kill the Emperor. Since killing the Emperor is unthinkable to pretty much everyone alive. Whether the theory is solid or not. Because - you guessed it - the Star Child is no longer canon.
Also, he hasLuther'sthe Lion's sword too.
More accurately, since the Lion's sword is broken, it's probably more akin to the Sword of the High Marshals held by the Black Templars.
I still like Cypher, to be honest.
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2012-05-24, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)
He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.
I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?
And what made him able to to fight the emperor were mostly that the chaos gods managet to agree on something for a change, combined with Horus being decently powerfull to start with.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-05-24, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, I'm hoping he comes back with a vengeance in the new Chaos Codex. He used to be totally badass. Was his background actually removed, or were we given more options to think about?
The Lion's sword may have mystical properties we don't know of. There's always magic, after all.
Sebastian Thor, and other 'super saints', would be better than Abaddon. He basically had Warp Storms turning up wherever he needed them. Abaddon doesn't even have Psychic powers. Thor could banish daemons by looking at them, and had the Emperor crippling the Enemy with warp storms for him.
The Emperor's control over Warp Storms is certainly interesting, though, normally they're associated with Chaos, but some seem to be intentionally working in the Imperium's favour.
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2012-05-24, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-05-24, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
What I understood was that the Emperor was able to snuff him out of existence with but a thought, but that he held back until it was too late.
Then, of course, he destroyed his own compassion and mercy and destroyed Horus' soul. The 'chink in Horus armour' that Sanguinius revealed was that the Emperor had to show no mercy, a metaphorical chink, as opposed to a gap in his armour.
To me, Horus always seemed the most powerful of the Primarchs, or the Chaos Gods had only really one chance to fill up the likes of a Primarch with their power. If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?
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2012-05-24, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
There's the 'if it comes back to Terra the Emperor might accept this crappy apology and fix it'... the redemption of the Fallen thing.
The sword itself doesn't need to shoot lightning, it could just be a McGuffin, part of Cypher's magical fairy quest for forgiveness, which I can't help but like.
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2012-05-24, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Not even close. Horus cutting down Sanguinius meant that Horus was no longer his brother, and no longer the Emperor's son. And that's why the Emperor smashed him in the face.
If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?
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2012-05-24, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I was of the opinion that the Emperor, after seeing this, removed the compassion from his own soul. Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight? Didn't they upgrade him to a Custodes? (Boo! Hiss!)
Wow. They did it with Lorgar first. The problem was that he wasn't suited to lead, but to corrupt. And that's exactly what he did. With flying colours.
"Horus is dead? Don't worry, we have a spare! Who do you have? Roboute Guilliman? Well done; we'll be eating your soul presently."
Horus was the only one strong enough to contain what they needed. Be it strength to contain their psychic power, or strength to lead people in war.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-05-24 at 07:16 AM.
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2012-05-24, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Doesnt the Alpha Legion turn because the Imperium ending chaos is a very real possibility, but one that would leave only mankind to turn against itself and then extinguish life in the galaxy? At least, thats the vision they are sold.
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2012-05-24, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Query:
Why could the Emperor only make 20 Primarchs?
Also:
How did the Chaos Gods nick them?
Theory:
The Emperor took a (stupid) gamble and used sorcery as well as science to create them, hoping to get them on side before the Chaos Gods could.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-05-24 at 07:18 AM.
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2012-05-24, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Source? It's not far different from the real verstion.
Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight?
Because.
...He also made 21.
How did the Chaos Gods nick them?
The Emperor took a (stupid) gamble and used sorcery as well as science to create them, hoping to get them on side before the Chaos Gods could.
I suggest you check out Lexicanum and get your hands on as many books as possible.
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2012-05-24, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
-emperor creates primarchs.
-Chaos gods steal primarchs and corrupt several of them with warp magics, including sanguinus geting magic wings (since they grant him maneuverable flight whitout a winged tail, which is imposible by actual science).
-emperor finds primarchs and goes "I'm fine with that. Here guys, I'll let you control my legions, what could go wrong?"
-?
-End up as a glorified torch.
So yes, magic was definetely involved on the creation of the primarchs. The emperor may've not done so willingly, but by granting control of the legions to warp-corrupted primarchs instead of, you know, making new ones, magic was involved.
If there's completely arbitarly limitations on the primarch creation that would stop him from replicating the experiment, then it was never science to begin with. Science needs to be constant and dupliceable to be science, so if all your books can come up with is "because", then it's magic pure and simple.
Planning to destroy chaos gods.
+
Expect chaos gods do absolutely nothing to mess up your plan.
=
FailLast edited by maglag; 2012-05-24 at 07:53 AM.
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2012-05-24, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
There isn't. It's all in Deliverance Lost. Emperor gives the Primarch Code (or at least parts of it) to Corax so that Corax can build super-Marines.
Yeah? And? Frequently throughout the Heresy novels, Emperor makes a ton of bad decisions. That's kind of the point. Else how would we identify with the Primarchs who went bad? What would be the point of the Heresy if Dad is actually always right? There'd be no reason to rebel in the first place.
Lorgar was treated awfully. Should the Emperor have done what he did? Hell no. But that's why Lorgar did what he did. Angron was lost from the start because Dad did a Greyson move.
The Emperor being an idiot isn't new.
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2012-05-24, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The primarch code now produces super-marines instead of primarchs? And then nobody else remembered to use them in 10 000 years? Yes that makes perfect sense indeed. Totally not magic.
The Lexicanum also makes no mention about any primarch code given to Corax. Things keep poping out of nowhere and then instantly disapearing, but totally not magic again!
You also still didn't explain why the emperor then didn't just create new primarchs instead of trusting his empire with warp-corrupted ones.Last edited by maglag; 2012-05-24 at 08:00 AM.
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2012-05-24, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.
2) So...your arguement that 'it's magic' relies on the fact that a publicly editable, fan-made wiki doesn't mention something from a single novel?NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-05-24, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Wait, that makes no sense...
If he used science, he could have just made more after the first lot disappeared.
Why didn't he make more? Why did he use them to breed inferior Marines?
And, really, the most powerful Psyker ever to have existed didn't use psychic powers to improve his creations?
He probably used science, with his Primarch Code, then made a deal, which he thought went well, with the Chaos Gods to make them even better, near-immortals. He didn't get as good a deal as he thought.
"Right, they'll disappear for a while, but I'll find them. They might be a little bit mutated, but they'll love their Daddy!"
Do the books actually detail the creation of the Primarchs, or does it give secondary sources? Seeing as the Emperor is a big fat liar, I can still see him using sorcery, especially if his experiment can't be recreated. If it can't be recreated, after 20 successful attempts beforehand, it isn't science.
He probably gave Corax information, but nowhere near enough.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-05-24 at 08:05 AM.
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2012-05-24, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
"It doesn't say that it's not magic, so it is."
Perfect argument. Here, I found a scarecrow. It's full of straw.
You also still didn't explain why the emperor then didn't just create new primarchs instead of trusting his empire with warp-corrupted ones.
Even though he basically pushed more than a few of them in that direction on his own.
Show me why you believe the Emperor would use Sorcery? Where has he ever done this? Where is the precedent?
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2012-05-24, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Going by Outcast Dead, he planned to do the same thing as he did to the Thunder Warriors*. That is to say, they have a limited "viable lifespan (thousands of years long, but long term plans, eh?)" and he wanted them to die and leave ordinary humans a sparkly galatic empire.
*(I dislike Outcast Dead for including them, though. )Last edited by Misery Esquire; 2012-05-24 at 08:14 AM.
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2012-05-24, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The outcomes imply Sorcery.
The intervention of the Chaos Gods, stealing the kids, and the creation of mutants, implies sorcery. The Chaos Gods can't just get involved in the material world, especially so close to Terra, without someone letting them in.
The fact that the Emperor did not make more, implies that he couldn't. He may have needed an unholy deal or arcane powers to do it, and reasoned that he didn't want to do it again. The fact that Corax' super-marines weren't Primarchs implies that they were missing something: maybe they didn't get their vitamins, maybe they weren't bound together with magic.
(The Emperor could have just let Corax clone Space Marines, though, then had psykers or drugs speed up their growth... both have precedent in the setting: I'm calling idiocy on this one.)
The fact that he later banned sorcery implies that he may have had a bad experience himself.
The fact that the Emperor was cool with having a bunch of super-mutants lead his crusade implies that he might have expected such.
Also: Psychic powers can give super-strength etc to people; as has been shown many times in the setting. As the most powerful psyker ever, why wouldn't the Emperor try to use magic as well as science? He was happy to use his magic in battle, along with his power fist or whatever, so why not do the same when making his kids?
"There are risks in the creation of these beings, especially with the powers I use. However, I'm the gods-damned Emperor. I can do what I want, and nothing can stop me!"
"Oh, crap, where did my sons go? Their mother should have been watching them!"
Ah, the Emperor, the worst Dad ever.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-05-24 at 08:24 AM.