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Thread: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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2012-09-29, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
The Black Crusade game allows you to play both Chaos marines and human heretics- it tones down Marine wargear a little compared to Deathwatch- but it's still better than human wargear. A "Legion bolter" will pack a little more punch than a human bolter, and so forth.
And the armour is still comparable.
The Inquisitor game also has stats for both marines and humans- and Marines are even more durable than in Deathwatch.
The Cain book The Traitor's Hand has the Chaos marines wading through hundreds of humans with minimal damage- and it's just Cain is that good a swordsman (according to Amberley, he's one of the top swordsmen in the whole sector) that he is able to not get killed. Even then, he's either holding it off till Jurgen can shoot it, or stabbing a badly weakened Marine through an existing hole in the armour.Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-09-29 at 12:36 PM.
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2012-09-29, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Both of which scenarios are quite believable and even likely in the various systems. (Damaged armour does get reduced armour value, anything other than medieval weaponry has a reasonable chance of getting through anyway, and certain weapons do penetrate a lot better.)
The Black Crusade does have some small mechanical differences/updates, but the armour and probably weapon differences are actually more intended to be because of the state of the armour used, with few of the systems still working and so on.
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2012-09-29, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Something more iconic then.
First war for armaggedon, hundreds of thousands of chaos marines, backed up by countless daemons and a daemon primarch.
And they get stalled in a planet by simple guardsmen-equivalent for months before reinforcments arrive.
Never happened by DW/BC rules. The hundreds of thousands of chaos marines and their daemons would've just steamrolled over the planet.
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2012-09-29, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-29, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-29, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
They don't usually come with the Rok-landing type of WAAAUGH though, because they can't make it to the surface intact. It was more-or-less universally agreed, even if by omission, that bringing along a Gargant/Titan-sized unit would wreak unimaginable havoc and likely singlehandedly win the war, because nothing in the Starcraft universe even approaches that scale of land unit. An Omegalisk miiiiight go head-to-head with a Gargant, but that's pretty much it, and they're so rare as to be practically nonexistent.
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2012-09-29, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
They probably would, except by the terms of the OP all we mainly have is lots of Roks with lots of boyz and whatever they can squeeze into aforementioned Roks.
I'm doubtful they could squeeze anything the size of gargants into a Rok, maybe a couple of light and medium class vehicles, but nothing on the heavy or super heavy scale.
Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?
Another thing that I've discovered - Roks can't travel through the Warp, so somewhere not too far away in-system, is the Orks' main base of operations.
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2012-09-29, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
That said, if you can crack your way through the armour, even if the Titan itself is mostly intact, you can swarm your way up inside it and make life very very difficult for the crew.
Which is seen in the Titan: Viviparous comic. Though they do end up repelling the attack.
There's Landas- but they're not really Titan carriers. Might be able to manage a Stompa though.Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-09-29 at 02:41 PM.
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2012-09-29, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
That, or sometimes they have big enough Tellyportas to get the super-heavies to the surface intact.
As for the Rok's lack of warp capability, I don't think that was intended as part of the fight, that's just a general idea of the scale of force the Orks can bring to bear.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2012-09-29, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-29, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Would probably be a case of:
Space Hulk drops in, Orks leave the hulk, arrive in the Belt, build engines on asteroids- mine asteroids for metal to build tanks and whatnot- start moving inward- and Space Hulk drops back into the warp.
Alternatively they just break bits off their Hulk and head inward on those.Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-09-29 at 02:45 PM.
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2012-09-29, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
There aren't hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines.
What you are saying is a literal impossibilityLast edited by GolemsVoice; 2012-09-29 at 03:31 PM.
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2012-09-29, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Larger WAAAGH!s that have Kroozers can easily carry a dozen Stompas or smaller Gargants, to say nothing of Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Battlewagons, etc. Considering Roks are just hollowed out asteroids, the limit on what it can carry would just be limited by it's size.
Hmmm how would Zerg fare against Ork Artillery? You could probably fit plenty of those on a Rok.
Another suggestion: Kill Team on XBLA and PSN; Space Marines fight through a Kroozer, hilarity ensues.Last edited by boj0; 2012-09-29 at 06:00 PM.
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2012-09-30, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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2012-09-30, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
However Orks are renowed for loving to get close and personal, and more important, they need strong leaders to keep them going togheter, even in the face of a clear common enemy.
There was actually a war where tyranids droped in an ork planet and were repeatedly crushed and forced into guerilla warfare, and even then things looked grim for the nids.
Until the tyranids realized the ork large numbers were just kept in check by a specific warboss. Using taunting hit-and-run tactics they lured said warboss in the open and killed him. The orks hordes proceeded to break in in-fighting and the nids picked them off one by one.
No special reason why the zergs couldn't do it, in particular because they're infamous for infiltration and dirty tricks.
No, I just happen to actually read the sources.
There's at least hundreds of chaos warbands out there, and each chaos warband is roughly the equal of a loyalist chapter. Since each chapter is around 1000 strong, then simple math confirms that yes, there's hundreds of thousands of chaos marines out there.Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-09-30 at 11:28 AM.
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2012-09-30, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
...wut.
A Warband is not the size of a Loyalist chapter. Read the page you actually linked to...
Some are not whole Chapters but simply warbands composed of a few tens or hundreds of Astartes drawn from the same original source and led by a charismatic commander or Chaos Lord.
According to the current records of the Inquisition's Ordo Malleus, approximately 50 Loyalist Chapters or elements of Loyalist Chapters have turned Renegade in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy.
When you link to sources,make sure those sources don't actually contradict your claims next time.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-30 at 12:07 PM.
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2012-09-30, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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2012-09-30, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
They also weren't all at the same time at Armageddon, as was initially claimed. The Lexicanum article speaks of "huge numbers" but that includes every type of chaos worshiper, not only Marines.
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2012-09-30, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
If there were actually "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, there would not have been a defeat/stalemate for Chaos.
Scratch that, there would not have been a war.
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2012-09-30, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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2012-09-30, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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2012-09-30, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Exactly. A line of siege tanks in siege mode hiding behind bunkers will obliterate entire swarms of zerg so fast its sickening. I cant even remember how many times I have seen a full zerg swarm attack an entrenched terran opponent only to be utterly wiped out at range without them ever coming close. Its pretty much the only time the zerg tactic of, "Keep marching forward till you eat them" fails utterly. There was a mission in the first starcraft, I think early on in the zerg campaign, where you play the zerg trying to attack the terran outpost. They have the high ground and bottleneck, with the cliff face covered by a solid amount of siege tanks and bunkers along the edges. For fun I built the maximum size swarm possible of ground troops, zergling and hydralisks, and sent them all up at once. 200 pop army. They didnt even make it to the base. Of course, I couldnt let that stand, so I then built about 7, 12 man squads of mutalisks and blotted out the sun. Think I lost two mutas before the entire base was leveled. :p
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2012-10-01, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Originally Posted by Lexicanum
Pre-Heresy Legions varied wildly in size but the average was 'about 10,000'. So depending on the specific size of the 20 Chaos Legions, it could have definitely involved hundreds of thousands of space marines AND daemons.
And yes. People fapping about space marines have spouted wild, wild numbers and fantasy scenarios and everything else that doesn't really jive with the technology level or the perceived results of the space marines. Portraying guardsmen as weak and inferior and useless and 5-10 space marines being able to single-handedly wipe out xenos fleets and the whole imperium being held together by tiny numbers of space marines is a common 'view' of the setting.
That said, it makes much less sense and is less of a working setting and more of a weird power fantasy about big armoured men who are soooo cool and strong than anything else.
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2012-10-02, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
You can have whatever opinion you want about the Marine Equivalents in the W40K setting. Realistically, I agree superheavy infantry is not a realistic option in future-warfare.
But the fact remains that if you have "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, plus their lesser/daemonic cohorts that round out their army, there is no Imperial Guard force in the galaxy that would stand a chance.
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2012-10-02, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
...And a single Exterminatus would eliminate every chaos space marine in existence. The Imperium could lose almost any world (excluding maybe Earth and Mars) and still make a net profit if it meant the elimination of an entire enemy faction. Cadia could send most of its forces elsewhere as there wouldn't be any more Black Crusades. Entire chapters could be redevoted to the rising Necron and Tyranid threats.
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2012-10-02, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
There were 9 Chaos Legions, not 20...I have no idea where you got that number.
And yes, I was referring to Chapters, because the Lexicanum says that 50 Chapters or contingents of Chapters have gone rogue since the Heresy...so the forces of Chaos have had an absolute maximum of 50,000 reinforcements, and it's doubtful all of them survived up to the current day. Only one of the original Traitor Legions - the World Eaters - were present on Armageddon in force, led by Angron the Demon Primarch.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-02 at 12:57 AM.
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2012-10-02, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Strictly, they aren't limited to Chapters- small groups of Marines (companies etc) have gone renegade as well.
Some Legions have demonstrated the ability to implant new recruits (Iron warriors for example)- but I'm not sure if this applies to the World Eaters.
After Istvann III there were on the order of 80,000 World Eaters according to the Forgeworld book "Horus Heresy: Betrayal" (legions averaged 100,000, not 10,000)
By the 41st Millennium there's probably somewhat less- even with them recruiting renegades.
Kharn shattered the World Eaters Legion into warbands at some point not too long after the Heresy- so it's possible Angron didn't have access to the whole Legion- just many of its warbands.
All in all I'd say you're probably looking at a few thousand World Eaters- but a lot less than 100,000, on Armageddon.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-10-02, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
If the orks were to fight against Zerg, it would depend on if it were Zerg lead by cerebrates and also if the overmind was still alive, or Zerg lead by brood mothers, who were created by the Queen of Blades.
The cerebrates have shown to be very good generals (they're giant brains, after all). They intercept enemy radio transmissions, devise new strategies, can communicate with each another, and are all psionically connected to the overmind, who will ensure that the cerebrates will be reformed if slain, so that their valuable knowledge will not be lost.
Under their command, the zerg could easily win against the ork hordes, unless they were lead by some extremely sneaky and experienced blood axe-warboss, who already knows how Zerg fight.
The starcraft 2-brood mothers on the other hand are too inexperienced and don't have really that much combat experience, being more focused on breeding new zerg-strains. Sure, new deadly zerg-thingies can also win the day, but without the knowledge to use them effectively, the queens and brood mothers just aren't that dangerous overall.
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2012-10-02, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
If it's a decent sized WAAAGH then we can assume that the Warboss is also of decent skill.
I mean the size of the WAAAGH is basically determined by how strong or skilled the Warboss is.
As per the OP the Zerg do not have any Cerebrates or the Overmind. So it'd likely be a Broodmother since giving the Zerg Kerrigan is like giving the Orks one of their special characters.Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2012-10-02 at 11:24 AM.
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2012-10-08, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Chaos controls various areas and the chaos space marine legions recruit from worlds in those areas, much as space marines recruit from worlds in imperium controlled space.
The imperium has more space that it controls, but it doesn't have access to daemonic resources and so has to spend more time and energy fighting off things like necrons and orks.
But chaos fights itself more than the imperium, so it's a bit of a wash.
That said apparently the Eye of Terror is a very large region of folded space and daemon-worlds, so the actual amount of chaos space marines appears to be 'any'.