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Thread: Worf vs Solo
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2014-06-27, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Worf vs Solo
We have a clash of titans going on in another thread with Picard and Sisko commanding armadas against each other. That made me wonder about a smaller scale, however.
Worf in the Defiant against Solo and the Millennium Falcon. Who would win?
Multiple conditions can be visited. Obviously ship-to-ship combat is one of them. With the Defiant being one of the 'most heavily armed ship in Starfleet', along with having a cloak, it's likely going to get an advantage.
But would that matter? Solo has escaped entire fleets of heavily armed ships. We need to take into account not just firepower, but also tactics.
So consider that Solo and Chewie are smuggling goods and Worf is sent to intercept. He has to hunt Han down. Please present opinions on whether a straight dog-fight can be evenly matched, or if Solo must use his escape tactics.
What would happen if Solo headed for a villain's planet and used his contacts to gain an advantage? What if he turned this into a jungle hunt? Would Worf be able to track down and take out the Wookie?
I'd like to avoid pitting General Solo and the Rebellion/New Republic against the Federation, but thoughts on that might also be interesting. I know we've done Borg vs. Death Star repeatedly, and various other large scale match-ups. The confrontational heart here is Solo's cunning and luck against Worf's tenacity and crew.
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2014-06-27, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Doesn't this just boil down to a general Star Wars vs Star Trek debate, based on the ship stats? Isn't Star Wars hyperdrive WAY faster than Star Trek warp drive? Unless the Defiant can alpha strike the Falcon's hyperdrive offline (say attacking out of cloak), the Falcon could just escape and they'd never catch them. That said in combat if we go by the movies there's zero chance the Falcon could even hit the Defiant, since it appears that the weapons are MANUALLY controlled on the Falcon.
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2014-06-27, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
This is why I opened it up to more than just a dogfight. Han can run well. Worf is a determined tracker. Both tend to never give up even when the odds are against them.
By the way, we should ignore The Worf Effect for this. Han tending to always win against Worf's getting knocked around like a ragdoll is a meta-consideration that goes against the spirit of competition.
Yes, ship-to-ship needs to be considered, but it's not the only factor. They're just tools. I'm looking for a real showdown where both sides use all of their resources. Han being the cunning criminal escapist and Worf being the uber-Klingon hunter.
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2014-06-27, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Cloaking devices seem to be something beyond the ability of Star Wars sensors to detect, it's tachyon based tech, meaning it's not simply becoming invisibile, as far as I know. I remember one episode of TNG when a cloaking device prototype was modified to actually make the ship go through solid matter, so it's obviously something far more advanced than just some invisibility device.
The ship is basically undetectable for someone who isn't actively scanning for it and even then it seems to require a good amount of scientific knowledge and improvisation to actually spot the cloaked ship. Han may have the latter, but he lacks the former.
So basically, Defiant cloaks, Millennium Falcon can't spot it in time, Defiant locks on to some vital component (engines most likely), opens fire and the Millennium Falcon is done for. You could argue that deflector shields would take the hit, which means that the Millennium Falcon can simply power the hyperdrive and be gone, assuming it's instantaneous. Can't remember if it is. Otherwise, aside from running, I don't think the Millennium Falcon can have a chance against the Defiant. It's still a battleship against what is basically a freighter.
Hand to hand combat obviously also goes to Worf, the guy managed to kill multiple Jem'Hadar in hand to hand combat, which are consistently protrayed as being skilled fighters in every way superior to a humans (except when Sisko misteriously manages to drop them with an elbow strike, but I attribute that to sloppy writing). Worf is better than even their best fighters.
The only contest in which solo could potentially win is in a straight up gun fight. Worf is a good shot, but not an exceptional one, if I remember correctly, while Han solo is obviously a skilled marksman and gunslinger and is used to fighting dirty, so I imagine he could probably get the drop on Worf.Last edited by Kalmageddon; 2014-06-27 at 11:01 AM.
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2014-06-27, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Point being with the speeds being so different, Han can run, arrive at his destination, deliver whatever contraband he was smuggling and then mosey off to the other side of the galaxy and Worf will never catch him. If Worf suddenly catches him on a planet I suppose its pretty much whoever shoots first since basic ground weapons (blaster pistol vs phaser) are roughly the same when dealing with unarmored opponents. Han probably has a better chance at being deceptive to Worf and thus letting him get a shot off first though.
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2014-06-27, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Ship vs. ship = Solo wins.
Mano i mano = Worf wins.
The scenario favors Solo, since they both start in ships.
(I don't count "Indiana Jones-school of swordsmanship" as an advantage since Worf carries guns too and is most likely a better shot.)Last edited by Raimun; 2014-06-27 at 11:32 AM.
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2014-06-27, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
This is how I basically see the opening gambit. Worf wouldn't straight-up vaporize someone just for smuggling. It's not a death sentence. He'd go for the crippling blow under cloak and then order a surrender.
I do have to assume that Worf would find some way to catch Solo outside of hyperspace. It'd be tricky to gun him down, otherwise.
Doesn't the Falcon have oversized deflector shields? That might have been described in non-canon work. If they could get Worf to blow his cover and underestimate the defensive ability of the Falcon, it could give Han the chance to run.
Hyperdrives aren't instantaneous. Precise calculations have to be made through a navicomp or astromech in order to not collide with some significant body. They can also be shut down with an interdiction field that simulates a massive gravity well, indicating the proximity of such a body.
Solo has performed emergency jumps, however, which is basically where the drive is fired at random, hoping to not get killed in the process. He might be able to get away and find some sanctuary or better battlefield. The Falcon has always performed remarkably well when escaping bigger battleships than the Defiant. Entire fleets of them, actually. This fight could go to ground as I doubt Worf would just allow the smuggler to get away with running.
If he could be tracked, Worf would track him, I'm sure. That might lead to a grounded confrontation. I'm not completely convinced that Chewie would fall so easily to Worf. Maybe so. We've never really seen the Wookie go against a skilled HtH combatant, have we?
Solo could definitely gun down Worf. His skill with the quick-draw is the subject of many EU scenes. I'd give that to Han if Worf actually allowed it.
I will say this. If it were war or Solo had a death sentence on his head? That cloak and superior firepower would likely demolish the Falcon without a fight. But just as being a wanted smuggler, Worf would more likely go for a crippling blow, and might be surprised at how durable that old hunk of junk really is.
EDIT To Raimun and Chen: Han can run, but Worf would be unlikely to give up the chase. It might take him a while to corner Solo, but it's been done before. Would Worf really not be as tenacious as Boba Fett?
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2014-06-27, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
The problem with the Defiant ambushing the Falcon is that it has to already be at one of the destination points... the hyperdrive is so much faster that it's basically incomparable. The Defiant can't intercept.
The Falcon also has greatly improved shielding compared to a normal freighter, is closer in size to a pair of runabouts than to the Defiant, and has a jamming suite, so immediately disabling the Falcon wouldn't be so simple.Last edited by Mando Knight; 2014-06-27 at 11:38 AM.
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2014-06-27, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Han isnt a warrior, he is a smuggler. He would run and hide. If he couldnt do that, he would jettison the cargo and run. If he couldnt get away, he wouldnt fight to the death. he might give firing a shot if he thought he stood a chance, but as this is two different universes and im not some fanatic that can compare and contrast their relative abilities, i cant say if he would be able to win a dog fight. Hand to hand, solo loses. Gun to gun, I still say he loses, if only because worf is a warrior. He is heavily trained to shoot you in the face if needed, while solo is a survivor. The only advantage solo has is his hyperdrive. He is a runner, a cockroach, and so it will be hard to squash him.
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2014-06-27, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Did you miss all the times Han shot people in the face? Han's a noted quick draw anda good shot - I think he has a more than decent chance in a shoot-out.
As for the Defiant vs. Falcon, SW tech is too good for ST. The Falcon is far more maneuverable and packs some good shields - better than the Defiant's phasers can punch through. QTs might be more of a concern, but I doubt they would instantly harm the Falcon enough that Han couldn't pull out a win.
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2014-06-27, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-27, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
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2014-06-27, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
They don't generally fight at full impulse, though, and there's no on-screen definition of SW sublight drives' maximum speed, other than that they're sufficient to travel from atmosphere to outside the gravity well in mere moments. The Death Star's 30 minute orbit around Yavin is pretty obviously on the slower end of max sublight speeds (it's a moon-sized battlestation!).
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2014-06-27, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
He shot a bounty hunter in the face in a sneak attack. Unless worf decides to be stupid and not disarm a man before chatting with him, that wont work against worf. Solo is a smuggler, not a warrior. At least as far as the movies are concerned. Yeah he got bumped up ranks in the resistance, but lets face it, it was a political appointment, not one earned on merit. He damaged vaders ship, allowing luke to make his shot. Im sure there is all sorts of EU "proving" Han is the awesomest thing since he inverted space and time on that kessel run of his, but thats EU. Everything gets insane in the EU.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2014-06-27, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
You're overlooking that Worf is a Klingon, and Han prefers bodyshots to headshots. (Actually, it's probably that bodyshots are waaaay easier on the special effects guys than headshots, but hey, what's on the screen is on the screen, right?)
Klingons tend to have piles of organs (If I recall correctly, there's an episode where worf breaks his spine and is ready to commit suicide before his emergency backup spine kicks in? That the doctors just sorta forgot about?) so even if Han shoots first and scores a chest hit, that might not be enough to actually bring Worf down.Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2014-06-27, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-27, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Overheard on the comlink:
"Look, we're a just a cargo vessel. You clearly outgun us. Where would the honor be in defeating an enemy like that? But I'll tell you what, Ridges. Let's park at that planet down there, and have a nice friendly game of Sabacc. Winner takes the ships."
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2014-06-27, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Nice. But it'd only work if Lando had recently joined Worf's crew.
So are we that sold on the Klingon being able to automatically take down a hardened, Wookie combatant with decades or more of military experience? He was both a general and ripping the arms off of droids before Solo had even been born.
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2014-06-27, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-27, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
That was between friends though.
A random smuggler trying to talk his way out of things? Not a chance. Worf would simply promise fair and equitable treatment and ask for immediate surrender, if Han didn't comply, he would assume that there's something fishy about it and disable the ship before boarding. Plus, Worf has basically 0 tolerance for bribes and corruption, so much so, in fact, that it even distanced him from other klingons during the Gowron era.
Edit: Wookiee vs Klingon in hand to hand combat would be interesting for sure. I could see it go either way, honestly. But I would still bet on Worf, he's basically a master martial artist, while Chewie as far as I know is certanly a capable warrior but not particularly good when it comes to hand to hand, if not for his strength, which doesn't matter much if your opponent has more technique.Last edited by Kalmageddon; 2014-06-27 at 01:58 PM.
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2014-06-27, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Erm, shoots dozen of Stormies on the DS, makes a headless charge after a few that would make any rabid Klingon proud, shoots several more on Endor. He's hardly a coward or incompetant in a fight.
As for situational awareness, just look at Bespin: notice how long it takes for him to go from thinking everything is fine until he sees Vader, draws and fires five shots that would have hit home had Vader not deflected them: unless I'm counting wrong that's a total of 4 seconds. Pretty decent, all things considered.
Star Wars sublight speeds are pretty decent - just look at how quickly the ships left Yavin IV and got to the gas giant (roughly 17 000 m/s), or how quickly Dooku made his getaway from Geonosis. He was already out of the atmosphere and well on his way to lightspeed by the time Yoda had picked up his cane. Have we ever seen any ST battles where anyone is moving anywhere near full impulse? All the ones I've seen have been going significantly slower than that, but I haven't see all ST has to offer.
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2014-06-27, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
As much as I like Chewie and the Falcon, they both lose out. Worf is a Klingon Warrior, he gets the Defiant, and Solo isn't that impressive.
Worf wins hand to hand against Chewie because he wields weapons while Chewie just uses fists. Chewie has his bowcaster, but Worf has a phaser or a disrupter pistol. An aside though, Worf would find Chewie honorable so its unlikely they will fight it out.
The Defiant was built and designed to kill borg, despite which it defeats Dominion ships that happen to be way more powerful than the Falcon. Plus the Defiant gets a cloak that the Falcon cannot pick up in any way as the Falcon lacks the Anti-proton beams that the dominion could use and did. The Falcon's guns are all manually targeted with limited computer help, while the Defiant can use fully computer assisted targeting.
Plus, the Defiant can generate a gravity well/mass effect using one of the ships systems which would prevent the Falcon from going into Hyperspace. The Defiant does also have a tractor beam that it can employ and it fires its weapons pretty fast.
Solo is a smuggler and he mainly is trying to survive more than outright winning. He would simply give his contraband to Worf or just dump it then leave. He has been shown to already do so anyway. Solo may shoot first, but every other enemy he has faced were stormtroopers. Worf fought the Jem'Hadar which could destroy entire divisions of Stormtroopers before going down. Plus Jem'hadar get a free personal cloaking effect, meaning that Worf is even more outmatched beforehand.
Solo never actually fights anybody who could actually give him a run for his money and he relies heavily on the Falcon's speed to get out of problems. Even better, due to details, none of the Canon that demonstrates that Solo is capable is no longer acceptable, as its all Legends stuff now.
Solo was caught by Boba Fett, and Fett isn't as impressive as Worf can be. Worf is better than Fett and Fett is better than Solo. (I absolutely refuse to count the stupid ending for Fett in Return of the Jedi, its complete BS and plot stupidity)
The Falcon has issues with its Hyperdrive not working and this occurs twice in one movie. The whole asteroid affair and going to Bespin was because the Hyperdrive didn't work. If it had, then the Empire would have never caught up with them, and Solo would not have ended up in carbonite.
How the scenario goes:
Worf flies the Defiant cloaked and intercepts the Falcon. The Defiant uses something to prevent the Falcon from using Hyperdrive and disables the ship. Solo gets in Jail.
The amount that it takes to jump into Hyperspace and the amount of time for decloaking doesn't give the Falcon enough time to get away. Based on the movies themselves, Solo needs at least a minute to jump, unless he is trying a random jump, but that presumes he can the system running and working instead of breaking.Last edited by russdm; 2014-06-27 at 03:54 PM.
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2014-06-27, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Apart from inuniverse hype, why is this impressive? I can't recall off-hand anything that makes kilngons so damn good compared to what you can find in SW.
he gets the Defiant,
and Solo isn't that impressive.
Chewie has his bowcaster, but Worf has a phaser or a disrupter pistol.
An aside though, Worf would find Chewie honorable so its unlikely they will fight it out.
The Defiant was built and designed to kill borg, despite which it defeats Dominion ships that happen to be way more powerful than the Falcon.
Plus the Defiant gets a cloak that the Falcon cannot pick up in any way as the Falcon lacks the Anti-proton beams that the dominion could use and did. The Falcon's guns are all manually targeted with limited computer help, while the Defiant can use fully computer assisted targeting.
Plus, the Defiant can generate a gravity well/mass effect using one of the ships systems which would prevent the Falcon from going into Hyperspace.
The Defiant does also have a tractor beam that it can employ and it fires its weapons pretty fast.
Solo is a smuggler and he mainly is trying to survive more than outright winning. He would simply give his contraband to Worf or just dump it then leave. He has been shown to already do so anyway. Solo may shoot first, but every other enemy he has faced were stormtroopers. Worf fought the Jem'Hadar which could destroy entire divisions of Stormtroopers before going down. Plus Jem'hadar get a free personal cloaking effect, meaning that Worf is even more outmatched beforehand.
Solo never actually fights anybody who could actually give him a run for his money and he relies heavily on the Falcon's speed to get out of problems. Even better, due to details, none of the Canon that demonstrates that Solo is capable is no longer acceptable, as its all Legends stuff now.
Solo was caught by Boba Fett, and Fett isn't as impressive as Worf can be. Worf is better than Fett and Fett is better than Solo. (I absolutely refuse to count the stupid ending for Fett in Return of the Jedi, its complete BS and plot stupidity)
The Falcon has issues with its Hyperdrive not working and this occurs twice in one movie. The whole asteroid affair and going to Bespin was because the Hyperdrive didn't work. If it had, then the Empire would have never caught up with them, and Solo would not have ended up in carbonite.
How the scenario goes:
Worf flies the Defiant cloaked and intercepts the Falcon. The Defiant uses something to prevent the Falcon from using Hyperdrive and disables the ship. Solo gets in Jail.
The amount that it takes to jump into Hyperspace and the amount of time for decloaking doesn't give the Falcon enough time to get away. Based on the movies themselves, Solo needs at least a minute to jump, unless he is trying a random jump, but that presumes he can the system running and working instead of breaking.
For some reason you just assume that Han would cut and run. Sure under normal circumstance he probably would but this is, for the at least 4th time, a versus fight - they fight.
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2014-06-27, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
1) Klingons are physically stronger and tougher than humans. Thats simple fact. They are less hairy wookies.
2)The Falcon has man operated laser blasters. The defiant has computer targeting weaponry. Thats a pretty massive differential in accuracy and rate of fire alone, and unless we give Solo some sort of crew bigger than just chewie, who the hell is going to FIRE the weapons? There are several banks of them, each needs an operator.
3) he can fly really good, but as a warrior, not so impressive.
4) Its more the bowcaster being a really silly weapon. And thats in star wars terms its kind of odd.
5)True, Worf would probably enjoy the fight with chewie more though due to similar outlooks.
6) Its a smuggler ship, not a battleship. Why are you acting as if Solo is going to have a mon calamari crusier or something? He has a fast ship that runs away really really well. He doesnt brag to luke that his ship can blow imperial cruisers out of the sky, he talks about how well he can run away from them. The Defiant on the other hand, is a combat ship.
7) Because Star Wars doesnt have cloaking tech, so there is no reason to expect them to be able to detect it or know what it is if they did. It would be as silly as trying to claim the defiant can sense and identify hyperspace travel being used when they havent encountered it yet.
8) He would run because thats what a smuggler trying to not get arressted tends to do. But as this is a versus fight, thats off the table I guess, I cant speak for the gravity well whatever.
9) Show us why not beyond "you think" Im not trying to pretend the falcon cant hurt the defiant after all, im just pointing out they have a really crappy setup for defending themselves.
10) I cant recall the last time I saw a storm trooper beat a man to death. Any putz can pick up a blaster and do an old fashioned spray and pray, (even han solo, bwahahahaha!)
11) In the movies, he generally rabbits as soon as its feasible. He does fight when he has to, admittedly, but he isnt some grand warrior.
12) Agree about boba. Its freaking odd how obsessed some get with him.
13) I agree there. The only time they had hyperdrive trouble was when they were in the middle of overhauling it and suddenly had to evacuate.
14) I saw that as more of, "The Defiant uses one of its multiple weapon or tech options to disable Hans engines/shields/weapons/whatever in the opening salvo." But yeah, thats the biggest flaw with trek, there is always phlobotinum."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2014-06-27, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
There has never been an instance (that I can find) that would indicate that the Defiant could pull off generating a gravity well on par with a warship with massive systems dedicated to the task.
The one film became the main trait of the Falcon's hyperdrive (that it's super fast, but also relatively unreliable) in the EU, but it's also important to note that not only was it down for repairs at the time, but the Rebels had been on the run for quite some time at that point, and proper maintenance is hard to do when you have to pack up and run every couple of weeks.
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2014-06-27, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-27, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
The EU resolved this by saying Han has a not-quite-complete backup hyperdrive on board.
So - he would have cannibalised the main hyperdrive to bring the backup one online and gotten to Bespin that way.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2014-06-27, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Here is why I dont like the EU. To me, it just feels like its a group of fanfic authors trying to patch plot holes, and play with their favorite characters. Suddenly Han Solo is the swashbuckling pirate. He is deadly in a fight, brave and fierce, can charm the pants off the ladies, and steals from the rich to give to the poor. (Note that im making this all up off the top of my head, it may or may not be accurate. Most likely not) It would be like if a group of us got together and each write a short story explaining why harry potter didnt solve every problem ever with a time turner, or did one where we make up a story on how the marauders got together and the unnoticed slight that may have caused pettigrew to turn. Or yet another book on how Ron really was a decent guy at heart and totally not a jealous arse. Patching plot holes and expanding on our favorite characters all under the lackadaisical auspice of Rowling going, "Eh, yeah sure, why not?"
The books could be absolutely incredible, (and I know some are really good) but its not the point, its still a bunch of fans writing out stories about the characters they love the most, or trying to patch holes in the plot that exist because even if he wanted to, lucas couldnt build and explain a fully functional universe with its own unique laws of physics and rich and complex history in a trilogy."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2014-06-27, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worf vs Solo
Sometimes it isn't novels, but splatbooks - The Millennium Falcon Owner's Workshop Manual, in this case.
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2014-06-27, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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