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2010-07-09, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
He's blue, duh buh dee duh buh dye
Originally Posted by Kao LeiQuotebox
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2010-07-09, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I wonder what would happen if he cast Stone to Flesh...
Originally Posted by GlorgenQuotebox
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2010-07-09, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Presenting the
FullStarmetal Alchemist!Originally Posted by Xiaojing Wu
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2010-07-09, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
And now for Part II!
Originally Posted by Xiaojing WuLast edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-09 at 09:58 PM.
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2010-07-09, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
"The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you guess and we both drink, and find out who is right, and who is dead."
Originally Posted by Nicolo EgidiLast edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-09 at 09:58 PM.
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2010-07-09, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
That's all of 'em. On your mark, get set, judge!!!
(Note: I never actually had time to review all of these builds for legality, power, or style, so I'll be just as impressed and surprised as the rest of you on a second look)Quotebox
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2010-07-09, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
"Choose a glass. By the end of this game, we will find out who is right and who is dead." (I hope someone gets the reference)
EDIT: Stupid half-right memory.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-07-10 at 05:43 AM.
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2010-07-09, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I did a paper on American interventions in Kashmir diplomacy from 1947-2000, and it took every ounce of my self-discipline not to give my paper the subtitle "Never get involved in a land war in Asia!"
Also, I had to edit my build for legality about 5 minutes after hitting the submit button That will teach me to try and make the character in one sitting!Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-07-09, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
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2010-07-09, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Skimming through these entries, I am very impressed with the creativity here. Much better than anything I had in mind for GSA.
Indeed, and the actual quote is more like, "The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you guess and we both drink, and find out who is right, and who is dead."
That might be the best thing I have heard all day.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-07-09, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
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2010-07-09, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Holy crap. My bad. I hope nobody saw that...
Gah...
I guess I must have glossed over that part of the rules.
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2010-07-09, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Very impressive. I have just read though the backrounds and skimmed the basics of the builds. Few of the builds are alike, all of them have unique and interesting stories. Going back for a more detailed read now.
I look forward to hearing the opinion of our esteemed judges. Thanks to our host Prinny, and also to the judges.
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2010-07-10, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I'll weigh in tomorrow, as is my wont.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-07-10, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
OK, this is my first time as a judge here at Iron Chef. Some of you might not know me - my name is Shinken and I'm well known around my neighborhood for being the judge on Beerfest 2007 & 2008. I'm also quite fond of D&D and optimization, and I have a few handbooks around. My favourite color is green and my favourite band is Millencolin. Oh, my ratings, of course...
Byerek Runeweaver
Originality: 2
Illumian, Duskblade, Arcanamach, Abjurant Champion, Greater Mighty Wallop, Minor Shapeshift... I've seen those together a million of times. Nothing new here. I simply didn't like his backstory too.
Power: 4
Very solid build with high CL and high base attack, good spell selection and the like. It's a little too 'bread and butter' for my tastes, but that's OK.
Elegance: 3
Paladin levels without any justification in your backstory was a very big NO for me. Same could be applied to incarnum.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You do get points for the Strenght synergy, but that's about it. There are tons of gish PrCs that would have ended up in a stronger build and without the backstory to back your choice up, I just don't see why GSA.
Little Starry Eyes
Originality: 5
A werebird halfling saint? That surprised me, oh did it surprise me! I like the backstory and the way the choices are explained so neatly in the backstory.
Power: 2.5
You probably expected that. That's A LOT of level adjustment you took, you completed GSA which drops your hit points even more, your base attack bonus is lacking, your skills are poor and your spells are very limited.
You have a few tricks, granted, but they are not spectacular.
Elegance: 3
Everything meshes pretty well together in the build, you reason your choices very well and it is backed up by the backstory. Very good.
You lots points because of Luminous Armor, though. Only prepared spellcasters can cast sanctified spells.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5
I'm giving this rating more because of the backstory than because of anything else. Starry-Eyes would be better with more Keeper of the Cerulean Sign, both mechanically and in terms of flavour.
Dr. Julius
Originality: 4
Frankenstein's monster has been done again and again, but the mix of classes is very entertaining... in a creepy way. I also enjoy his tactics and the focus on Inflict Spells.
Power: 4
Solid defenses, debuffing and some melee power. Very good.
Elegance: 2.5
The doctor feels... odd. First, I can't find the feat Skill Mastery anywhere and it seems it is that feat from UA that adds a skill to your class list: that feat is from an alternate skill system and should not be combined with the normal skill system. Second, your backstory is very open and you don't tie your choices with it; doc is just your average mad wizard, it seems, he just eats starmetal now and then. Third, Dreadful Wrath. That's a regional featthat humans can only take when raised in Rashemen. That's a lot of potential for backstory there - a land of people that love nature and the spirits, you are born there and become something so unnatural... It seems you just took the feat, ignored it was a regional feat and went with it. Fourth, your backstory does not even mention starmetal.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You go into the PrC late, don't complete it and the only thing you gain from it are some resistances/immunities you'd gain from Dread Necromancer at high levels anyway. You don't make use of the bonus strenght or increased base attack bonus at all. While the class fits your backstory, Fleshwarper alone also fits that role.
Stardream
Originality: 2.5
OK, another illumian gish... The greater focus on melee than on spellcasting got you a few points. So did the idea of the transformation as curse.
Power: 3
You said there is no reason not to try Leap Attack every round... but there is. You are a Duskblade. You channel spells as a standard action and you can't do so on a charge. Also, your hit points suck since you lost your Con score, but that's only on the very last level so I chose to ignore it.
Elegance: 3
That Knight levels hit you hard here. They are not needed for the build and not justified in your backstory.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
It's interesting for the backstory... and that's about it, really. You barely focus on spells, going for more of a charger build. You do have some synergy from illumian, but it's not a good use of GSA at all.
Kao Lei
Originality: 2.5
Savage Bard is the only original element here, everything is pretty standard.
Power: 3.5
Sublime Chord helped you here, since it allows you to get 7th-level spells. Good feat choices but I think you focused a little too much on taking advantage of your Charisma and it hurt you a little.
Elegance: 4
A neat build that fits perfectly the backstory.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
GSA fits your backstory very well... and nothing more. You barely mention the classes abilities.
Glorgen
Originality: 4
A dwarf with fey blood? You don't see that every day. Very good.
Power: 2.5
With low base attack bonus and lack of Power Attack (see below), Glorgen is close to the weakest presented build. You don't even deal with the glaivelock's biggest problem - mobility.
Elegance: 2.5
That's sad, but you can't Power Attack with eldritch glaive. It's not a weapon at all. You also didn't specify what spell-like ability was the focus of your Quicken Spell-like Ability feat.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
I really don't see what GSA adds to the build. You get a bonus to strenght wich makes hitting with eldritch glaive easier... and that's about it.
Xiajing Wu
Originality: 4
Wow! How amazing! A Wu Jen/Anima Mage?! Sure as hell didn't see that coming! Very interesting!
Power: 5
You are the closest thing to a full-caster here, so of course you get the upper hand on power. The researching spells thing of course helps and your spell selection is very very good.
Elegance: 2.5
Researching spells is DM-dependant and it cost you some points here.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5
You don't make use of all abilities, but the ones you make use of really do count. You get into the class kind of late and you could get the no-Con thing quite easily with other means (say, Necropolitan) but I like what you did.
Nicolo Egidi
Originality: 3.5
I expected a Hexblade here, but not a halfling.
Power: 2.5
You focus heavily on poisons and many many things are immune to it. Other than that, you perform pretty poorly on anything other than social situations. A weak build with an ace in a sleeve that can be easily denied, no doubt.
Elegance: 4
You needed Rogue levels for the skills, so you took'em and justified them. I like that. The build is increasingly synergetic and meshes it's elements pretty well.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2
I wonder what Green Star Adept does for this build. I see no synergy whatsoever.
I must say I'm impressed no one tried to use Uncanny Blow to take advantage of the increased Str or Robilar's Gambit to take advantage of the DR, or even Roll With It to increase said DR.
OK, folks, these are my ratings and thanks for tuning in.
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2010-07-10, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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2010-07-10, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-10, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Wow, congrats to everyone.
At first glance, it seems that you carved blood from stones and done very pretty entries. Since most of them are non self explainatory (bad guys, bad) and I see much things to study, I guess I'll show my judgings maybe tomorrow or, at least, monday.
I had my favourites already: hope they did not mess up something
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2010-07-10, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-10, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Boilerplate Disclaimer: anything said below is a reflection of my personal opinion towards the work presented for my viewing, nothing more. I make no judgments about the presenter, as the level of effort expended to create something for this is absolutely marvelous. Well done, everyone.
Now, the scores!
Byerek Runeweaver
Power: 4. Pretty strong entry, actually. Clever usage of GSA's half-casting and Suel's short list.
Originality: 3.5. I've seen GSA used with other gishy classes before, and though Suel isn't the most common one ever, it's close to my expectations.
Elegance: 2.5. Lots of jumping around, don't take too much of anything, I don't like the look of it. It's a fine build, but it just feels clumsy. Further, the lack of a connecting story bugs me somewhat, though not majorly.
Use of Green Star Adept: 2.5. I said I would accept 9 or 10 levels, not 8. That's something that I was very very unhappy to see. It feels much more like Suel Arcanamach and Abjurant Champion are the stars here, not GSA.
Total: 3.125. It's a fine build, quite strong, but the fact that GSA feels highly redundant and non-special here bothers me.
Starry-Eyes
Note: HOLYCRAPITSABOOK. Seriously, damn man. I didn't really expect to be reading a novel today.
Power: 3.5. She seems quite defensive, and very very focused against aberrations. However, her overall power isn't that great. Now, in an aberration-hunting campaign, this is almost God mode.
Originality: 4. I didn't expect to see Bard/Keeper/Lycanthrope/Saint. Creative and well-crafted.
Elegance: 2. Ok, I am really sorry for this, but you used a custom Lycanthropic template (questionable in general), traits (from UA, also questionable and personally I hate them), and Saint (regarded as among the better templates, along with one of the most thorniest in regards to acquiring it).
Use of Green Star Adept: 4. This felt like a good solid home for GSA. It actually even made sense to take it to 10 here.
Note: I am giving you an additional .5 for your story, just because it was excellent and so far beyond the call of duty, it is only far that I acknowledge your hard work.
Total: 3.5 (accounting for the story, 3.375 otherwise). It's a solid and enjoyable build with a good unifying tale woven into it.
Dr. Julius Mordenstein
Power: 4. You set out to build a melee mage, and you succeeded, in an interesting fashion.
Originality: 3.5. Dread Necromancer was actually not outside the purview of what I was expecting. However, Fleshwarper was. I'm impressed.
Elegance: 3.5. No issues here. Only three classes, you built on GSA well, I'm pleased.
Use of Green Star Adept: 2.5. I cannot give you better than this. You didn't finish the class, or even take 9 levels of it. I said 9 or 10 was acceptable to me, not 8. I get that you wanted to take Fleshwarper and whatever, but eh.
Total: 3.375. It's a fine build, and fairly creative.
Kaurrek the Eternal
Power: 2.5. He's a greatsword fighter. Much as I appreciate the straightforwardness of that career choice, it's not super useful. Even worse is that the guy doesn't have Shock Trooper or anything else that makes greatsword users good, he instead has Great Cleave and Monkey Grip.
Originality: 2.5. He's a Duskblade/fullBABclasses/GSA pretty much. This is par for the course
Elegance: 3.5. Can't dock you here, it's simple and clean-lined.
Use of Green Star Adept: 3. This is what GSA was intended for I think, though it's not what it's best at I feel.
Total: 2.875. It's a basic "break stuff with sticks" character, and in that limited capacity, it's fine. However, I wonder at a few things: why didn't you take Shock Trooper, it's in CWar after all. PHB2 has good feats for meleers, where are they? Given the sources you used, you're missing stuff I would have expected to see here, and I think it hurt you.
Kao Lei
Power: 3.5. Kao Lei isn't really crazy strong, just decently strong, and that's alright. However, that sneaky level of Sublime Chord was clever. Good boost there.
Originality: 4. Savage Bard? Not something I was expecting. The story, while minimalist, was actually quite fresh and creative at the same time. I liked it quite a bit.
Elegance: 3. You dipped a lot, which I'm opposed to on principle. It wasn't SO bad that I want to light you on fire or anything, but it was highly aggravating.
Use of Green Star Adept: 4. This is a good, creative, decently strong gish character, and a strong use of GSA. Well done.
Total: 3.625. This was a good and strong entry. I am well impressed.
Glorgen
Power: 2 or 3 (see text). Ok, this is a debatable one. See, I seem to recall that touch attacks cannot be power attacked with (because I believe they are classified as light weapons and you cannot use PA with light weapons). However, as I'm a busy fellow, I cannot find a citation for that. If that is the case, Glorgen's power drops like the stone that he is. If it's NOT, then he's decently powerful. I'll let Prinny make the call there.
Originality: 4. Warlock was so far out of my expectations that it's on the freaking MOON. Well done, truly.
Elegance: 3.5. No issues here.
Use of Green Star Adept: 3. While I loved that you tried something fresh and new, thanks to Warlock, I don't think it works amazingly well here. I appreciate the creativity, but it didn't turn out to be great.
Total: 3.125 or 3.375, depending. Either way, the character is unique, if not my favorite ever.
Xiao Jing Wu
Power: 2.5. You did it wrong. See, Bind Vestige, the feat, has only a specific list of acceptable powers. These are called out on page 74 of Tome of Magic. Further, Anima Mage doesn't actually progress your binding ability, since you have a VERY SPECIFIC list of acceptable vestiges. Now, some folks claim that this style of early entry into Anima Mage gives you full binding abilities, but they'd be wrong, since you never got true binding to start with. You are of course a decently strong caster, so that's in your favor.
Originality: 4. This one I'll grant you. Binder/Wu Jen/GSA? Didn't see it coming, it was creative and unique.
Elegance: 3. Other than the fact that you based your build on something that is at best highly questionable and at worse blatantly illegal, it's fine really.
Use of Green Star Adept: 2.5. As you said, GSA isn't really useful for a full caster, making your decision to use it a bit... questionable, really. Yeah, you ended as a 15th level Wu Jen caster, which is nice, but GSA feels almost forced.
Total: 3. The Bind Vestige misstep was disastrous, IMO. I really really think you should maybe have checked to see if it actually worked before you built a character around it. I could almost forgive if you just did the early entry, but you apparently missed how the feat works entirely, since at level 1 you bound Aym for the Halo of Fire, an ability explicitly not granted by the feat! This really cheeses me off since while this is a common mistake made with that feat, you should check EVERYTHING in a contest like this one.
Nicolo Egidi
Power: 3.5. A poisoner can be quite effective, and Nico (Bellic? ) seems to fit the bill well.
Originality: 5. Given what else I've seen today, this wasn't what I expected to give a 5 to. However, the irony and creativity inherent in playing a poisoner construct with such elegance as Nicolo has just floors me. Bravo, sir, bravo.
Elegance: 4. Normally, I'd ride you about that Rogue level, but it actually makes sense here (thanks to needed ranks in Poisonmaking). It's smooth and slick, and I like it.
Use of Green Star Adept: 3. This is not what the class was designed for, nor what I think it is good at, but you did use all of it, and used it in a clever and unique fashion. I'm impressed, but not enough to call this an excellent use of GSA.
Total: 3.625. A clever build. I'm impressed.
Best Score: Kao Lei and Nicolo Egidi tie for this one, with a 3.625.
Personal Favorite: Damn, that's tough. Starry Eyes wins on text and ability to keep me glued to the screen. Nico was the most "WAIT WUT" of them all, which I prize heavily.
By the by, I want to speak to the creator of Xiao Jing Wu for a moment. Let me be perfectly clear: I tanked you because you made an assumption, namely that a trick which TheoryOp has said may debatably work would fly here, in a non-TheoryOp environment. Personally, the fact that you based your build around a feat that you misread really bothers me, as it implies you were too lazy to turn a page (quite literally) and check that this thing worked at all!
All that said though, I wanted to applaud you for something: you tried something NEW. Really really new. Yeah, it failed (but that was due to technical difficulties), but you went out there and made something well beyond everyone's expectations, and I really appreciate that. Don't let this bad scoring bother you too much. Instead, next time, make sure your trick is not TheoryOp and that it actually WORKS, and go for it anyways.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-07-10, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
After reading both the Player's Handbook definition of a touch attack and the description of Eldritch Glaive, I see nothing saying that it is a light weapon. It is treated in all other ways as a glaive, including the ability to us PA.
Don't forget about the puns.Quotebox
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2010-07-10, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-07-10, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Relevant info is on Complete Arcane. Page 73 lists which feats can be used with weapon-like spells - Power Attack is not one of them. Page 85 mentions that effects that apply to weapon damage can't be applied to weapon-like spells, mentioning prayer and inspire courage as examples.
Nowhere on eldritch glaive's text does it even mention glaive feats apply to it, really. It only appears similar to a glaive. Now that I re-read it, I realize not even Weapon Focus (glaive) would apply:
Originally Posted by Eldritch GlaiveLast edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-10 at 06:15 PM.
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2010-07-10, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
Good catch. Lower score it is.
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2010-07-10, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I'm just as glad I got hit by RL. My build was a Suel Archanamach, which pretty much was identical to the first submission. Well, not quite, I finished GSA and didn't bother with AbChamp, but that was about it.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-07-10, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I also thought on Arcanamach, but without Abjurant Champion abuse, Knight of the Weave is just plain better. My idea was a spellscale Spellthief/Knight of the Weave/GSA/Abjurant Champion, going for killer caster level. I also wanted to squeeze a level of Exotic Weapon Master there, but three 3/4 BAB classes were hurting a lot, specially because it made it harder for me to qualify for Robilar's Gambit, which would be my ace in a sleeve.
Also, please comment on the recently moved Suel Arcanamach Handbook ^^
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2010-07-10, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-07-10, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
I suspected I had made a mistake. I had just assumed it was hiding later in the build. Should have stuck with my Jade Pheonix Mage/GSA instead of making the alteration.
Thanks.
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2010-07-10, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
If you are Glorgen, well, don't sweat it. It wasn't such a major mistake that you tanked entirely. The build was solid, and even though I don't think Warlock and GSA blended perfectly, you did try something creative and interesting.
Also, was anyone else surprised at the lack of ToB in this contest? It isn't here ANYWHERE, and I was sorta expecting it.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-07-10, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
A dwarf with fey blood? You don't see that every day.
Researching spells is DM-dependant and it cost you some points here.
Ok, I am really sorry for this, but you used a custom Lycanthropic template (questionable in general),Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-10 at 07:58 PM.