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2011-09-04, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-04, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
But...but...nooooo! Conjunctive Gate ruins everything forever, because it makes people forget all the other cool stuff a Truenamer can do.
And trust me, they can do cool stuff, by RAW, without stinky bleu. Truenamer's are one of the few casters that can dish out damage/debuffing that ignores AC, Saves, and SR. While a Reversed Moderate Word of Nurturing may not do terribly impressive damage, it will always do damage. They also have the wonderful ability, as Zaq has said, to know everything about everything.
I'm playing a Truenamer in a Red Hand of Doom campaign right now, and she's hit knowledge checks high enough to reveal half the plot to our group, and we're at Vrath Keep. In a group with a Focused Transmuter, a Beguiler with Mindsight, Red Knight Vindicator and a Druid she's holding her own in combat, because she's the only one that can cut through the SR of our Fiendish-templated opponents every single time.
And Conjunctive Gate makes people ignore all of that awesomeness, which makes me sad.
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2011-09-04, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-04, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2011-09-05, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
@ Zaq: Can we have a color coding scheme for the Utterances? (e.g. blue = good, red = trap, black = meh, other color = must-have etc.)
@ Ragged: Of all the "cool things" the Truenamer can do, damage would probably be the last one I'd focus on. Level 1 FoM, refilling potions, "undispelling", and free metamagic for the team's casters would all take precedence.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-09-05, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Hmm. Quite possible. I'm a little wary of calling anything I make truly "ideal," but I understand what you're going for. This is definitely on the table.
Heh, you know, I hadn't intended to be so bitter, but I'm certainly not prepared to deny it. Thanks, I think.
I had really strongly considered using a color-code system (probably the trap/meh/decent/good/great/mandatory scheme that's so popular on the WotC 4e forums), but the truth is, there's a lot of utterances that are really hard to rate. Some are simply party-dependent, some are really GM-dependent, some are level-dependent, and some just depend on what you want to do. For example, take the Word of Nurturing line. You'll almost surely want one or two of them, but which one or ones you want really depends on what level you're starting at, as well as what OTHER utterances you consider must-haves for your particular concept. That's not something that you can put a solid rating on. I think that I've done a decent job outlining which utterances are really top-notch and which utterances are garbage . . . and I've tried to present enough information to let the reader make an informed decision about the ones in between. (Besides, what color represents "this option isn't really good, but you might end up taking it anyway just because there's seriously nothing else at this level that's any better"?) If you really think it would help, I might be able to be convinced. (Thoughts from anyone else would also be welcomed. I do appreciate feedback.)In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2011-09-05, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I loved the previous guide, and I love this one. Awesome stuff, Zaq!
That said, I mostly read it for amusement valueAwesome fremetar by wxdruid.
From the discomfort of truth there is only one refuge and that is ignorance. I do not need to be comfortable, and I will not take refuge. I demand to *know*.
So I guess I have an internets? | And a trophy. | And a music cookie (whatever that is).
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2011-09-05, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Well if I ever lose my mind or start feeling masochistic I know where to some for knowledge. Excellent thread Zaq.
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2011-09-05, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I just applied for a PbP on here with an illumian factotum/truenamer. If accepted, I'll post some thoughts here. If I get REAL crazy, I'll make a journal and post a link.
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2011-09-05, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
D&D is made to be a flexible system... why not homebrew some extra Utterances that are decent to make them more balanced?
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2011-09-05, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Well, as Zaq will no doubt tell you, the Utterances themselves are only part of the problem; you still have to deal with the poor scaling of Truespeak, the poorly-executed Laws, the various rules inconsistencies, the miniscule class features and the dearth of useful PrCs.
Having said that, there are already two great and widely-accepted Truenamer fixes in the Homebrew section, created by Kellus and Kyeudo respectively. Both include new utterances, as well as revisions to the existing ones, and address the various problems listed above in functional and creative ways. So rather than reinvent the wheel, I suggest leveraging one or both of those.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-09-05, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Pelor's White Flame, where the sun has been extinguished, arcana is disappearing, and the undead are taking the world for their own.
Espisito, NG Elf Ranger 9/ Skylord 4
Mandar, CG Half-Vampire Human Archivist 9/Tainted Scholar 3
Maximillian, LG Human Knight 8/Annointed Knight 3/ Legendary Leader 3
Melahen, CG Human Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Archmage 1
RIP Masm, Goodbye Castiel
More Truenamer utterances Here
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2011-09-05, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Last edited by Zaq; 2011-09-05 at 02:48 PM.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2011-09-05, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I decided to ply a truenamer next time I get to play in my group instead of dming.
I also am taking my vaccines so I don't lose the ability to taste ice cream when I do that.My Homebrew
5e - The Artificer (of Alancia)
AGE of Darkness, converting World of Darkness to AGE
Dungeons & Dark Souls, bringing the Souls universe to your 5e
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2011-09-05, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Of course you would be the one to make this guide Zaq, but if not you than who?
Anyway great job, I love to tone of it.
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2011-09-05, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Pelor's White Flame, where the sun has been extinguished, arcana is disappearing, and the undead are taking the world for their own.
Espisito, NG Elf Ranger 9/ Skylord 4
Mandar, CG Half-Vampire Human Archivist 9/Tainted Scholar 3
Maximillian, LG Human Knight 8/Annointed Knight 3/ Legendary Leader 3
Melahen, CG Human Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Archmage 1
RIP Masm, Goodbye Castiel
More Truenamer utterances Here
Epic Dwarf Binder avatar by me.
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2011-09-06, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Just wanted to note something here... Dragonborn of Bahumat allows you to swap one of your existing feats for a dragonblood-only, 1st-level-only feat. There are only three of these, and one of them is kobold-only (Dragonwrought... yes, you *can* become Dragonwrought after 1st level), but this lets you swap one of your useless class-feature bonus feats for Dragon Tail (secondary natural weapon, or add Prehensile Tail from Savage Species for a third hand) or Dragon Wings (which puts you one feat away from a true flight speed).
This is a great way for a Truenamer to swap Truename Research or a Bonus Recitation feat for something that might actually be useful. Taking the breath option and Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings lets you add both a breath weapon and flight on a race other than Raptoran.
Also... Hengeyokai might be an interesting race. In animal form, they can still speak to other animals of their type. Sparrows have a better AC than Muckdwellers: +8 size, +6 Dex.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2011-09-06, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
So, I built a truenamer at ECL seven for a player of mine. After one play session, my group thought it was frigging awesome.
See, making a working truenamer is not as hard as frequently made out. It basically involves picking decent spells, like any other limited choice caster, and boosting truespeaking. That's it.
Now, granted, I may have gotten a static +41 to a level 6 truenamer, but that still gives him something like four uses of an utterance vs a CR 7 opponent before he even needs to roll(or use the skill boosting utterance to push it to +46), and of course, since he's using a variety of utterances, this is not really a problem at all.
See, standard caster rules apply. A combat is only going to last a few rounds. Average of four combats a day. He has absolutely no trouble contributing for every round of every combat(plus a bit of out of combat fun).
So...not really weak at all. And a *lot* of that optimization was pretty basic. Amulet of the Silver Tongue. Skill Focus: Truenaming. Good Int, maxed skills. Sure, I tossed in a little extra, and he's a level down due to going necropolitan, but a +30 or so is remarkably easy to pick up without significant knowledge.
I'm going to say they should be a Tier 4. Possibly jumping to Tier 2 with optimization. No attack roll/No save/ability to ignore SR is not trivial at all.
Fun fact: Since friendly DCs scale off HD, LA and level drain make them easier to heal.
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2011-09-06, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Hmm... I've read and reread your original guide a few times and it's convinced me that I love the fluff for Truenaming (while the crunch is absolutely miserable and needs to die in a fire).
I'm mostly a Pathfinder kinda guy, so I'm considering homebrewing a Truenamer-inspired class based on the Words of Power from Ultimate Magic.
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2011-09-06, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I tend to measure the quality of a class by how many different books you need (outside of the book in which it was introduced) and how many house rules and homebrew recipes you need to make it effective. Part of the problem with this class is that it feels like the book in which was introduced doesn't really support it that well, and that a lot of the rules are so ambiguous that one interpretation can make it okay and another interpretation can make it frustrating. The fact that the game makers saw fit to make their casting as complicated as possible didn't really help; you really couldn't give this class to someone who wasn't a moderately good optimizer, could you?
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2011-09-06, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I can buy tier 4 (although without quite a lot of optimization, I'd still lean towards tier 5 simply because most utterances aren't that great). But tier 2? What utterances does a truenamer have that match up to sorcerer spells, or favored soul spells, or psion powers, or unlimited summoning? Especially at mid-to-high-levels, when their damage is outscaled by hit points and their legitimately useful effects (freedom of movement, solid fog) can be replicated or outclassed by anyone in tier 2.
SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2011-09-06, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
One thing you might consider is adding a house rules section, for some ideas to make them a little more playable. For example:
-Instead of the Law of Sequence stating you can only have on instance of an utterance going at any given time, have it state that the DC for a Truespeak check goes up by 5 for every instance of that utterance you have going at the time. That's nothing to sneeze at, but especially for nova-esque fights or early in the day it can be overcome without too much work.
-Give Truename Research the ability to let you guess at someone's personal truename by making a knowledge check as if you were identifying the creature as a standard action (for simplicity, use the same rules for affecting them with an utterance to set the DC). It would at least be useful, especially in boss-type fights where every +2 could come into play.
-Set the DC of a truespeak check to 10+Creature's CR + 2xUtterance Level. Now the DC scales more reasonably, a first level Truenamer trying to affect a CR 1 monster would only have to beat a 13. Assuming 16 int, 4 ranks, and Skill Focus(Truespeak), he could do it on a 3 or better plus however much LoR he's accumulated by this point. A level 20 Truenamer trying to affect a CR 20 monster with a 6th level utterance would have to beat a 32... for a level 20 truenamer that's child's play (heck, for a level 6 that's no sweat). This still assumes you're hoarding bonuses, but even if you aren't going all out with the Paragnostic Assembly, custom items, and an Item Familiar you can still play a reasonable Truenamer.
-There's a fairly ambitious Truenamer homebrew that adds a mess of new utterances. I'm not a big homebrew fan, but for those that are it's a good starting point.
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2011-09-06, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
They're a solid limited list caster. At low levels, they require little to no optimization to be good, and at high levels, they get to gate for free. It is not an expectation of tier 2s that they will be able to break the game at every level.
I'll admit it's on the low side of tier 2s, but at high op levels, ignoring defenses is pretty huge. The mailman isn't relevant because of damage numbers...it's relevant because it's difficult to stop. And even that still requires an attack roll. Now, I'm not to claim that a high op truenamer is quite as good as a mailman...but the fact that it can stand up to comparison is pretty epic.
Also, I feel like everyone ignores the fact that UMD is a class skill. You can get some pretty awesome benefits out of this with relatively low investment.
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2011-09-06, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2011-09-06, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
But a mailman can do things that ignore defenses, even if it is just omgwtf-huge damage (and with things like Enervation, Fell Drain, Fell Animate, Born of Three Thunders, etc., it's not just damage). What can the Truenamer do? I'm AFB and haven't read the Utterances recently, but I seem to recall them getting very, very little in terms of useful effects (ignoring Conjunctive Gate). There was Slow, which is fairly-solid, but Slowing one guy, even if he can do nothing to stop you, isn't really that impressive... I may not be remembering things, but if you can do something that ignores defenses, but it doesn't actually make any difference, that's... not really worthy of tier-ing.
I'm also really dubious of +41 at level 6 being anything but extreme optimization. It certainly runs contrary to Zaq's description...
9 ranks, maxed, obvious.
+7 Int, to be generous.
+3 Skill Focus.
+10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue (can you even afford a +10 at 6th?)
= +29. That's still far short of +41. Where do you find another +12? Paragnostic Assembly and Item Familiar seem likely, but I wouldn't call that kind of book-diving for bonuses to be "obvious"...
UMD is ignored by the Tier list. Anyone can UMD; plenty of classes can UMD better than the Truenamer, thanks to the Truenamer's Int focus and lack of specific UMD-related class features. UMD is a feature of Warlocks and Artificers, but not the Truenamer.Last edited by ThiefInTheNight; 2011-09-06 at 12:55 PM.
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2011-09-06, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
See, this is the problem with comparing against theoretical archbuilds. Yes, you CAN make a mailman that does other things. And no...he DOES just do damage. You can't really just toss feats around, since the archetypal mailman build, Cindy, requires all feats, and really doesn't do anything other than stock god caster stuff until fairly decent levels.
Being able to pull stuff out of the sky, for instance, is nice. Not fantastic, but you're gonna know the Utterance anyhow since it lets you fly. At high tiers of optimization, flight is a very common thing for people to have, and making it go away is relevant. At op levels, it's not nearly as common, or common as early.
Additionally, I direct you to quicken. Note that it does not suffer the usual level stuff that vancian spellcasters do. You don't have to care about metamagic reducers, you ONLY need to optimize the truenaming check. Do that, and quicken suddenly becomes "wee, I cast two spells a round".
I'm also really dubious of +41 at level 6 being anything but extreme optimization. It certainly runs contrary to Zaq's description...
9 ranks, maxed, obvious.
+7 Int, to be generous.
+3 Skill Focus.
+10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue (can you even afford a +10 at 6th?)
= +29. That's still far short of +41. Where do you find another +12? Paragnostic Assembly and Item Familiar seem likely, but I wouldn't call that kind of book-diving for bonuses to be "obvious"...
Masterwork tools are core. They do not count as extreme optimization.
Googling for feats or spells that boost skills is not extreme optimization. I ended up not using any spell items because I wanted it nice and simple for a relatively new player to play. Just static bonuses.
I also didn't burn all his resources on truenaming. He's also a particularly stealthy fellow with a +....24 I believe to stealth? An undead whisper gnome that screams peoples names to make them die.
Hell, I hadn't even had him join the Paragnostic Assembly yet. I really should have, since there's good stuff to be had there, and he likely will at some point in the future, but again...this is only moderate optimization.
UMD is ignored by the Tier list. Anyone can UMD; plenty of classes can UMD better than the Truenamer, thanks to the Truenamer's Int focus and lack of specific UMD-related class features. UMD is a feature of Warlocks and Artificers, but not the Truenamer.
Int is also a pretty great primary stat. You're pretty much guaranteed to be training UMD as a truenamer unless you're just trying to avoid power.
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2011-09-06, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
You did a great job in the detail, but someone skimming the guide - say, whose truenamer leveled during a gaming session and needs a refresher - would have to read that detail on every single option before making an informed choice. That's where color ratings come into play.
Equally important as a color rating for the Utterances, is one for the feats, particularly the ones that boost one's Truespeak check. You've listed several as options but wrote in the detailed text words to the effect of "Yeah you can pick this, but it's a really bad idea" - someone skimming your guide to build a Truenamer might see the feats listed in that post and not know which are must-haves and which are near-traps.
So in the interest of readability I think a color system is an essential part of any complete guide, particularly one about a class that is this easy to gimp. Some choices are situational, yes, but that's what the average rating is for.
Concerning the WoN line, the typical standard for ratings is a 1-20 build. Assuming you start a Truenamer from the beginning and take it to the end, which WoNs are best? You can then include a caveat that the ratings may change based on the campaign's beginning and ending point.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-09-06, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Favored in Guild, as per Ravenloft campaign setting, would be pretty handy to include. Minor fluff stuff, but it's a flat +2 to the skill, provided you can justify a guild of mostly Truenamers. This overlaps really well with Paragnostic Assembly.
It's not quite as nice as Skill Focus, but it's still high on the list of feats to invest in.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-06 at 01:29 PM.
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2011-09-06, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
No, but there's a difference between "can break the game at mid-to-high levels" and "can break the game exclusively at level 20 in exactly one way." Being able to gate basically at will is obviously ridiculous, but it's also exactly one-twentieth of the Truenamer experience. Sorcerers can get encounter-defining spells starting on level one and only get better from there.
But if you want to place level 20 truenamers in tier 2, you won't get any argument from me. I just disagree that a single capstone utterance makes up enough of the class to justify its inclusion in a tier.
But it can't stand up to comparison. Contrary to what you say, the damage of the mailman is extremely relevant to its power; so is ignoring defenses, but ignoring defenses is pointless if your attack doesn't do anything. If you can ignore saves and spell resistance and armor class, that's great, but if you're dealing less than massive amounts of damage, big deal.
A well-built charger or archer is likely to be able to kill most anything in one or two full-attack actions and have a high enough attack bonus (and enough magic items dealing with concealment or invisibility) to hit with great reliability. They're still only tier 4. So even if the truenamer's methods of beating things up is a lot more potent than Zaq's analysis implies, it's still not tier 2 material.
Sure, but if "has UMD" was enough to justify inclusion in tier 2, it'd be a pretty full tier. (Or maybe you meant that should justify it in tier 4. I'd be more open to that suggestion; opinions differ on how much UMD should count for tier placement, but it does offer enough power and versatility to compete at that level.)Last edited by Gametime; 2011-09-06 at 01:39 PM.
SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2011-09-06, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
None of those things alone are sufficient to make it tier 2. Action economy abuse is not enough, being a limited list caster is not enough, having a way to break the game is not enough. Having other interesting options such as UMD is not enough. But having all of those things? That's pretty much what tier 2 is.
Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.