WH40K Fluff Thread V - WARNING: May Contain Heresy

[Tome]

Thank you!

Now I wonder, are there any conventions between IoM and say, a civilized aliens, like Eldar or Tau? Or other human factions? Say, an apothecary has white armor - does it mean he is supposed to be unarmed noncombatant like field medics today?

There are no conventions or war crimes in 40K. Nor are there any treaties or pacts. Everybody hates everybody else to the point of genocide. Butchering unarmed civilians gets you a commendation in most cases.

Medics are just as heavily armed and armoured as the rest of the unit. Non-combatants are shot - if they're lucky.

[Cheesegear]

Non-combatants are shot - if they're lucky.

There are combatants, and there are targets that don't shoot back.

[Eldan]

There are no conventions or war crimes in 40K. Nor are there any treaties or pacts. Everybody hates everybody else to the point of genocide. Butchering unarmed civilians gets you a commendation in most cases.

Medics are just as heavily armed and armoured as the rest of the unit. Non-combatants are shot - if they're lucky.

There is at least some Diplomacy. The Eldar codex (might have been the old one) described an imperial diplomat on Ulthwé, and the old Tau Codex similarly had a rather surly Space Marine on a diplomatic mission on a sept world.

[Squark]

There is an imperial diplomatic corp that gets mentioned occasionally. They're only used when a war would be strategically impractical, though. At least, that's the impression I get. It's possible Sandy Mitchell made them up for his first Cain novel.

[Alex Knight]

Now now, Nemesor Zahndrekh applies all the ancient rules of honorable war to his foes, regardless of race.

Granted, that's because he's delusional and thinks they're all wierd Necrons, but hey!

[hamishspence]

There is an imperial diplomatic corp that gets mentioned occasionally. They're only used when a war would be strategically impractical, though. At least, that's the impression I get. It's possible Sandy Mitchell made them up for his first Cain novel.

One mustn't forget rogue traders- at least one of the archetypes of rogue trader is "diplomat", in the Rogue Trader gamebook. In that respect, they have Imperial authority to open diplomatic relations with most aliens, as well as lost human settlements.

[Talkkno]

"Although all aliens are-offically-viewed as anathema by the Imperium, some are tolerated to a lesser degree. Such races tend to be primitive in tecnhology and culture or constrained to a backwater planet far from the Imperium space. In many parts of the Imperium contact with alien races is not uncommon and on some frontier worlds trading aliens is a fact of life. Such dealings are usually overlooked by the authroies and would certainly not warrent censership or intervention." Radicals handbook pg 199

[Cheesegear]

So, this may or may not be a big ask for this forum, seeing as how IIRC only one particular poster has occasionally brought up the sources I need;

I do not currently have Deathwatch; First Founding. If anyone is able to list me the Chapter-specific Wargear found in it (and for what Chapter), that would be extremely great.

Note; I do not want rules. I just want to know what the Wargear is and/or what it looks like. I also assume that being one of the Iron Hands requires you to lose a hand (or two, since you're a Veteran in the Deathwatch). I assume.

[deuterio12]

Then do so. I'll be here.

Good. You can begin by explaining why it seems every time Cephias Cain faces a chaos marine, said chaos marine is completely unarmed besides power armor. By contrast, even the most moath-foaming codex CSM carries at least an hand weapon handy.

[Abrexa]

Shoot 'em 'til they're dead.
If you're busy shooting something else, see if they'll help you shoot what you're shooting at.
When the dust is settled open fire on the xenos. High-five the Necron King!

Not even remotely.

Ah. Then why they have white armor? Won't that make them bigger targets?

Also, was under impression IoM cooperates with friendly aliens?

[Brother Oni]

Ah. Then why they have white armor? Won't that make them bigger targets?

Depending on the source, marines in power armour are somewhere between 7-8 feet tall and weigh the best part of a ton.

You really think a different paintjob on their armour is going to change the fact they're big targets?

Also, was under impression IoM cooperates with friendly aliens?

The IoM only has two classifications when it comes to aliens - ones we kill now and ones we kill later. They're dogmatic, xenophobic, highly conservative and fanatically religious - I don't think that something that's blatantly 'not one of them' is going to be treated on anything better than cold hostility or more likely, hot explosive death.

Now individuals within the IoM are a different case (Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, etc), but as a political, religious and cultural entity, as far as the IoM is concerned, the only good xeno is a dead one.

[Cheesegear]

Good. You can begin by explaining why it seems every time Cephias Cain...

Because Ciaphas Cain is not an accurate depiction of the Universe and actually an exercise in how not to write a 40K novel. The whole thing is written so that Ciaphas is strangely competent in everything (even when he says he isn't, he is), when everyone around him is absolutely terrible at their own job.

If Chaos Marines were like they were supposed to be, Ciaphas would've been splattered over the pavement. The greatest weapon in the Universe is a Blank with a Meltagun.

Ah. Then why they have white armor? Won't that make them bigger targets?

As opposed to the bright blue and gold guys? Or maybe the guys in full-gold armour? Perhaps you're comparing to that one Chapter which is an entire Chapter full of white Marines?

[Abrexa]

As opposed to the bright blue and gold guys? Or maybe the guys in full-gold armour? Perhaps you're comparing to that one Chapter which is an entire Chapter full of white Marines?

It's not the color of the armor, it's the fact they visibly differ. Snipers and such will always fire on officers fist, and the one guy with different armor will always be assumed to be so. Doubly so for Chaos, who knows well how important Apothercaries are.

If by 'bright blue and gold' guys you mean Celestial Lions, which I just googled, then the whole Chapter is doomed by stupidity of painting the medic armor white, as ork snipers killed these guys first. Had the Apothecary been noncombatant, it wold make a bit of sense, but as of now, it just seems a way for enemy to effortlessly remove 1/1000 of IoM quick response force from circulation by killing a few guys

[Cheesegear]

It's not the color of the armor, it's the fact they visibly differ. Snipers and such will always fire on officers fist, and the one guy with different armor will always be assumed to be so. Doubly so for Chaos, who knows well how important Apothercaries are.

Luckily, Apothecaries are like, a Veteran's Veteran. Not only have they survived countless battles, they also help everyone else survive - under battlefield conditions. To make matters better, but they're also surrounded by a Company's Veteran squad who considers an Apothecary one of the most valuable Marines in the entire Chapter and they make it their business to keep the Apothecary alive.

You're also forgetting that an Apothecary is still a Space Marine, and all that that implies. Talos - an Apothecary - does an awful lot considering that he's 'just' an Apothecary. Apothecaries can defend themselves fine. Sniper fire? That's what helmets are for.

If you're worried about armour markings. You should probably find something else to rag on aside from Apothecaries. Because differences in armour markings and ornamentation are all over every single Space Marine Chapter. May as well as Dante why he wears bright gold, while the rest of his Chapter wears red?

[The Glyphstone]

Good. You can begin by explaining why it seems every time Cephias Cain faces a chaos marine, said chaos marine is completely unarmed besides power armor. By contrast, even the most moath-foaming codex CSM carries at least an hand weapon handy.

Cain has faced a Chaos Marine twice in the entire body of his novels. The first time, said Chaos Marine had a chainaxe, so he was armed. The second time, said Chaos Marine had just finished fighting his way through hordes of Slaaneshi cultists, and was badly wounded as well.

Because Ciaphas Cain is not an accurate depiction of the Universe and actually an exercise in how not to write a 40K novel. The whole thing is written so that Ciaphas is strangely competent in everything (even when he says he isn't, he is), when everyone around him is absolutely terrible at their own job.

If Chaos Marines were like they were supposed to be, Ciaphas would've been splattered over the pavement. The greatest weapon in the Universe is a Blank with a Meltagun.

To the contrary, Cain is a perfect example of how to write a 40K novel in the spirit of the 40K universe - he's an awful and utterly unreliable narrator with a huge self-esteem complex and a habitual liar to boot, As called out in the footnotes, it's sometimes impossible to tell if Cain is over-exaggerating, under-exaggerating, or accurately depicting a situation. Nothing's better for a superstition and inaccuracy-riddled world like the Imperium.

As for the competence of secondary characters, you must be reading different Cain books. More often than not, Cain's supporting mooks are painted as highly skilled and effective (except for comic relief like Jinxie and that artillery guy I can't remember) - the more competent they are, the more likely they are to die horribly as part of a Worf Effect to showcase the uberness of that book's enemy.

[Ricky S]

If by 'bright blue and gold' guys you mean Celestial Lions, which I just googled, then the whole Chapter is doomed by stupidity of painting the medic armor white, as ork snipers killed these guys first. Had the Apothecary been noncombatant, it wold make a bit of sense, but as of now, it just seems a way for enemy to effortlessly remove 1/1000 of IoM quick response force from circulation by killing a few guys

Hey its not their fault that the inquisition deemed it worthy to kill them all. Also most chapters apothecaries have white helmets or something to signify that they are apothecaries.

[Borgh]

Cain has faced a Chaos Marine twice in the entire body of his novels. The first time, said Chaos Marine had a chainaxe, so he was armed.

Note that during this encounter Cain, regarded as pretty much the best swordsman in the sector, is reduced to parrying and jumping around to avoid getting smashed until the CSM takes a face full of pointblank antitank weapon.

[deuterio12]

Because Ciaphas Cain is not an accurate depiction of the Universe and actually an exercise in how not to write a 40K novel. The whole thing is written so that Ciaphas is strangely competent in everything (even when he says he isn't, he is), when everyone around him is absolutely terrible at their own job.

If Chaos Marines were like they were supposed to be, Ciaphas would've been splattered over the pavement. The greatest weapon in the Universe is a Blank with a Meltagun.

To the contrary, Cain is a perfect example of how to write a 40K novel in the spirit of the 40K universe - he's an awful and utterly unreliable narrator with a huge self-esteem complex and a habitual liar to boot, As called out in the footnotes, it's sometimes impossible to tell if Cain is over-exaggerating, under-exaggerating, or accurately depicting a situation. Nothing's better for a superstition and inaccuracy-riddled world like the Imperium.

I rest my case about the novels not being any better at delivering reliable fluff.

Note that during this encounter Cain, regarded as pretty much the best swordsman in the sector, is reduced to parrying and jumping around to avoid getting smashed until the CSM takes a face full of pointblank antitank weapon.

So the "best" swordman in the sector is somebody who suposedly hardly sees any frontline action as he begs to be deployed as far away from danger as possible, and CSM are completely oblivious to blanks (which are suposed to have this really nasty aura everybody and their mother could sense) walking right to them, taking aim with an anti-tank gun, and blowing them up whitout any colateral damage despite the hero being just a couple of feets away and engaged in melee. Yes, CSM are truly ultimate warriors in the Cain universe, half-blind and unable to melee the officer whitout power armor nor genetic augment neither centuries of training tasked with supervising artillery.

[BRC]

IIRC, only psykers would react to a blanks 's aura. A standard non psychic CSM in the middle of a battle probably didn't notice. Most people are just somewhat uncomfortable around blanks.
Also, he was hardly "unable to Melee" Cain. IIRC the fight went something like this.
CSM attacks, Cain blocks a single blow.
Cain attacks, CSM barely notices.
An entire IG squad opens fire on the CSM with lasguns, Cain moves back.
Jurgen blasts the CSM with a melta gun, CSM dies.

So it wasn't "Cain beats a CSM", it was "Cain, five or ten guardsmen, and jurgen with a melta beat a CSM".
And while Cain always asks to be deployed away from the frontlines, he always ends up there anyways.

[deuterio12]

-Cain, a completely normal (even if heroic) human, can block direct hits from a genetically augmented oponent with power armor whitout breaking anything or falling, check. So much for superhuman strenght.
-Aren't fluff lasguns suposed to pretty much bounce out of fluff power armor?
-Aren't CSM suposed to have superhuman reflexes? Because around the other fluff discussions, several people claimed that a SM seeing an oponent pointing a gun at them could run at them and rip of their arm before they could shoot, if not simply dodge the bullet.

[lord_khaine]

-Cain, a completely normal (even if heroic) human, can block direct hits from a genetically augmented oponent with power armor whitout breaking anything or falling, check.

If he isnt being taken seriously, then its not that far out for a very skilled swordsman to redirect a casual strike from a SM.

-Aren't fluff lasguns suposed to pretty much bounce out of fluff power armor?

Depends on the source, though generaly concentratet fire does leave a mark.

Also, did you miss the part about the Melta gun?

-Aren't CSM suposed to have superhuman reflexes? Because around the other fluff discussions, several people claimed that a SM seeing an oponent pointing a gun at them could run at them and rip of their arm before they could shoot, if not simply dodge the bullet.

I dont know where you have it from, but since its not an official source, then i cant see why it matters.

And no, SM's isnt that fast.

[Zorg]

I think a few people are forgetting concepts like literary license, author intent and making changes to make a good story - if there was one single homogenous view of the background it'd be rather dull and repetative.

If people are critiquing what is a quasi-history for its divergences you really should be taking into account what teh author is trying to achieve over mere 'facts'. For example see the various inaccuracies in war movies for the sake of the plot, even ones deemed super realistic.

Jarhead is one guy's account of his time in the Marines during Desert Storm. Other Marines, and accounts say it's full of lies and stuff that could/should never have happened.
The Hurt Locker is praised for its realism, but makes real IED disposal guys' blood boil over what many would consider fairly inconsequential points (even though other disposal team guys say it's scarily accurate).

Does that make the movies a less reliable source, or one that presents a differing view and covers otherwise unrecorded events?
Trying to argue that because the hero of the story defeats the bad guys heroically it's a bad story and nothing can be trusted from it is a complete failure of a reasoned criticism of a creative medium.

Author intent is a huge thing here - when I had a talk with McNiell I asked him about the differences in protrayal of Space Marines between his Ultramarines series and the Heresy series, specifically that the heresy marines are regarded as ogreish and unnatural, but 'modern' marines are super handsome action dudes.
Basically it comes down to, as I postulated to him, that the Ultras are the heroes, so must be relatable - they're idealised. But the Heresy marines are set to be much more unrelatable and alien (hence the remembermancers being a lage part of the POV), to make their actions at guiding and controlling humanity seem scarier and more forebidding.
If you've got a relatabel action hero deciding to shoot a place up, it's cool - you probably agree with him and go along for the ride. But when an intimidating, unnerving, brutish guy (no matter how well spoken, polite and right in his actions he is) does the same, with a more visceral, brutal portrayal of the violence, you get a less positive reaction - because the author wants you to have that reaction to get into the emotional mood of the piece.
In the Heresy books humanity is an outsider to the Marines' civil war, they either don't care about us or we are secondary to most's thoughts - and we are made to see that. In Ultramarines Ventris is a badass dude out to protect humanity and has its best interests at heart - and we see that there.


As a side point, lasguns:
have no recoil
have recoil
are invisible
are ruby beams
are white bolts
hit instantaneously
hit after an brief moment
make a cracking noise
make a sizling noise
blast a man off his feet when hit
punch a hole in a man, cauterising it
bounce of any armour stronger than flak
kill space marines with difficulty
kill space marines with ease
depending on who you ask.

Remember how the point of 40k being galaxy spanning is so people can have different interpretations of things and they can all be perfectly valid, or is that just me?

[BRC]

-Cain, a completely normal (even if heroic) human, can block direct hits from a genetically augmented oponent with power armor whitout breaking anything or falling, check. So much for superhuman strenght.

The CSM is almost certainly a better combatant than Cain. It's stronger, faster, and almost certainly has more experience than him, but that doesn't mean that every attack it makes will hit. Had the fight continued, Cain would have worn out after dodging or blocking a few strikes, and the CSM would have taken his head off.

As it was, the CSM made exactly one attack, which Cain blocked. Concentrated Lasgun fire didn't kill it,just staggered it long enough for Cain to get back and let Jurgen to take the shot.

Combat isn't just an equation where you compare the power of two sides and say "This one will win".

Now, if you want a fight Cain shouldn't have won, I'd say the Warboss he took on in Death or Glory. Compared to that, surviving a single blow from a CSM is nothing.

[Squark]

The CSM is almost certainly a better combatant than Cain. It's stronger, faster, and almost certainly has more experience than him, but that doesn't mean that every attack it makes will hit. Had the fight continued, Cain would have worn out after dodging or blocking a few strikes, and the CSM would have taken his head off.

As it was, the CSM made exactly one attack, which Cain blocked. Concentrated Lasgun fire didn't kill it,just staggered it long enough for Cain to get back and let Jurgen to take the shot.

Combat isn't just an equation where you compare the power of two sides and say "This one will win".

Now, if you want a fight Cain shouldn't have won, I'd say the Warboss he took on in Death or Glory. Compared to that, surviving a single blow from a CSM is nothing.

Both of the times Cain has won a fight with a Chaos Marine, he's had major advantages. The first time, he was basically playing distraction and trying to avoid getting pasted until the infantry squad and Jurgen could get a clear shot, while in the latter, the Marine was already fairly heavily wounded from trying to carve his way through hundreds of Chaos cultists.

The fight with the warboss... My best geuss is Korbul got overconfident and ignored the fact that Cain had a laspistol in his other hand, and a clear shot at Korbul's unarmored face.

From a mechanical standpoint, it's entirely possible a commisar who gets lucky can win a fight with a single chaos marine. A warboss... That's a bit sketchier. EDIT: Actually, if you give Cain the stats of a Lord commissar... The lord commissar has a much higher balistic skill (meaning he might get a wound in with the laspistol), but the real challenge will be the warboss's extra attack, and higher STR and Toughness. From a mechanical standpoint, my best geuss would be Korbul flubbed his armor saves and Cain got a lot of sixes on his to wound rolls.

This leads to an interesting question... How do Cain's stats differ from that of a typical commissar (since there was a Cain miniature at one time)

[hamishspence]

Or, if you were playing Dark Heresy, the warboss was missing a helmet and Cain rolled several 10's for Righteous Fury.

[Borgh]

This leads to an interesting question... How do Cain's stats differ from that of a typical commissar (since there was a Cain miniature at one time)

Stats: higher WS but not much else.
equipment: laspistol, CCW, carapace armour
Special rule: Aura of dicipline, but not the excecution thing. Maybe not stubborn on his own but he does make a squad stubborn.

[Winterwind]

Stats: higher WS but not much else.
equipment: laspistol, CCW, carapace armour
Special rule: Aura of dicipline, but not the excecution thing. Maybe not stubborn on his own but he does make a squad stubborn.

Probably Infiltration (and gives it to the squad he's attached to), too. To reflect how his tactical advice and his attempts to get away from the action invariably end up putting him at the most dangerous and critical spot on the battlefield possible.

[Talkkno]

The IoM only has two classifications when it comes to aliens - ones we kill now and ones we kill later. They're dogmatic, xenophobic, highly conservative and fanatically religious - I don't think that something that's blatantly 'not one of them' is going to be treated on anything better than cold hostility or more likely, hot explosive death.

Now individuals within the IoM are a different case (Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, etc), but as a political, religious and cultural entity, as far as the IoM is concerned, the only good xeno is a dead one.

I beg to differ.
"Although all aliens are-offically-viewed as anathema by the Imperium, some are tolerated to a lesser degree. Such races tend to be primitive in tecnhology and culture or constrained to a backwater planet far from the Imperium space. In many parts of the Imperium contact with alien races is not uncommon and on some frontier worlds trading aliens is a fact of life. Such dealings are usually overlooked by the authroies and would certainly not warrent censership or intervention." Radicals handbook pg 199

[hamishspence]

In the 5E Rulebook it discusses Imperial/Eldar interaction: p119

"For the moment, the Imperium mostly refrains from aggressive action against the Eldar. This is partly because the Eldar are numerically among the smallest galactic threats, partly because they are allies almost as often as enemies, but largely because the last Imperial assault on an Eldar Craftworld ended with the diaster of Blood Nebula and the loss of an entire sector fleet. It is better to fend off a single wasp than to provoke the entire nest."

[Borgh]

Probably Infiltration (and gives it to the squad he's attached to), too. To reflect how his tactical advice and his attempts to get away from the action invariably end up putting him at the most dangerous and critical spot on the battlefield possible.

I'd turn that part into a "redeploy d3 units after deployments are finished, one of those has to be the unit Cain is in and this unit have to be redeployed closer to either an enemy unit or an objective"

Infiltrate sounds like he is intending to get stuck in, and we can't have that now can we?