[3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

[Greenish]

No, nothing like that. There is one multiclassing feat that ought to be added, though: Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Since sneak attack is a stronger ability than undead turning, this typically is used in a mostly-(Cloistered) Cleric build (Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric X).

Does it require actual rogue levels, or is 2d6 SA enough?

In the latter case, you'd get nice mileage from a tactical swordsage dip.

[Curmudgeon]

Does it require actual rogue levels, or is 2d6 SA enough?

In the latter case, you'd get nice mileage from a tactical swordsage dip.

No, it doesn't. You'd lose the benefit of the feat if you ever went out of Assassin's Stance, though, so that's a bit on the risky side.

[ProfMoriarty]

Love the handbook so far.

You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.

It has very easy pre-requisites for a rogue. Including a single essentia point; gained through either race, a single level of an incarnum base class, or an incarnum feat such as Midnight Dodge (Midnight Dodge also counts as Dodge for prerequisites).

It has 3/4 BAB, 6+Int skill points and decent skill list (missing a few notable skills such as UMD, Disable Device, Bluff). It has good reflex and will saves and can hide in plain sight as a ranger due to Embrace of Shadow at level 3 (ECL 8).

The 3 level dip is preferable gaining 2 essentia, a single sneak attack dice and Embrace of Shadow. The 4th and 6th levels are dead levels so while the later abilities are interesting they are probably not worth the dead levels.

Sept Knowledge can be useful for rogues with knowledge devotion, gaining a bonus on all knowledge and gather information checks for 24 hours after meeting a member of your sept (a fluffy guild of some sort for umbral disciples). Travel with a low-level hireling from your sept or get a fellow PC to join the sept to make this bonus continuous.

[Person_Man]

This seems relevant, and has been well received on similar threads.

Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

Spoiler

Show

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot or Pounce (remember that you can still Charge if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful.

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this, or a Binder 5 can use the Kas (Dragon Magazine #341) vestige to Blind on every critical hit (and it allows your crits to effect undead).

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a stupid waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

Also, you may wish to incorporate Spoiler tags into your handbook. It makes it easier to read.

[Curmudgeon]

You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.
...
It has good reflex and will saves and can hide in plain sight as a ranger due to Embrace of Shadow at level 3 (ECL 8).

I've looked into this one, and it's got a significant downside: Embrace of Shadow is a Supernatural ability.

Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.

The Shadowdancer or Assassin Hide in Plain Sight Supernatural abilities do "note otherwise" by directly using the Hide skill, which normally takes no action to perform. But Embrace of Shadow is a separate ability, which may or may not be used to enable you to Hide.

Embrace of shadow is usable at will.

Since the ability doesn't specify any other duration, you'll need to trigger this "at will" ability each round, using a standard action and at least 2 points of essentia each time. That doesn't let you do much of anything else except run away.

[Telonius]

Love the guide! You've obviously put a lot of work into it. I do have a couple suggestions though.

I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second (d4 kukri or d6 shortsword vs d6 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask). The cost is low: 8 ranks in skills you'd probably consider taking anyway (bluff and disguise), 8 ranks in perform, and four languages. If your Int is high, you'll have a few of the languages already. So it really only costs 12 or so skill points. I'd call that a steal, and Rogues love a good steal.

I'd specifically mention in the Multiclassing section that the 20th level of Rogue is totally, completely, utterly worthless. Rogue19/Warrior1 is better than Rogue20. Rogue19/Expert1 gives Rogue20 a run for its money, depending on the class skills selected. (Iajutsu Focus, I'm looking at you). You have to get down to Rogue19/Commoner1 before Rogue20 is a clear winner.

[Curmudgeon]

I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second

That's really not much of a recommendation. You're gaining maybe +2 damage per attack, at the cost of 1 Rogue level, or ½ die of sneak attack: -1.75 points, on average. Plus you have to spend 8 skill points on Perform: act (which is AFAIK utterly useless), maybe 2 points for a cross-class Speak Language, and then lose 4 more skill points for that level of MoM. Those 14 skill points could buy you 7 skill tricks instead, which (with tricks like Acrobatic Backstab) give you more opportunities for sneak attack. That's where the Rogue's real damage potential is -- not a mundane point or two per attack.

[Eldariel]

That's really not much of a recommendation. You're gaining maybe +2 damage per attack, at the cost of 1 Rogue level, or ½ die of sneak attack: -1.75 points, on average. Plus you have to spend 8 skill points on Perform: act (which is AFAIK utterly useless), maybe 2 points for a cross-class Speak Language, and then lose 4 more skill points for that level of MoM. Those 14 skill points could buy you 7 skill tricks instead, which (with tricks like Acrobatic Backstab) give you more opportunities for sneak attack. That's where the Rogue's real damage potential is -- not a mundane point or two per attack.

Then again, there are many exotic weapons with more interesting abilities than just damage. If anything makes the Mask worth it, it's making a good use of tons of those.

[ProfMoriarty]

I've looked into this one, and it's got a significant downside: Embrace of Shadow is a Supernatural ability. The Shadowdancer or Assassin Hide in Plain Sight Supernatural abilities do "note otherwise" by directly using the Hide skill, which normally takes no action to perform. But Embrace of Shadow is a separate ability, which may or may not be used to enable you to Hide.
Since the ability doesn't specify any other duration, you'll need to trigger this "at will" ability each round, using a standard action and at least 2 points of essentia each time. That doesn't let you do much of anything else except run away.

Hmm, when I first read this ability I assumed it was continuous with essentia invested, I know page 50 (MoI) states that class abilities requiring essentia work like soulmelds for the purpose of investing essentia. This means that the essentia, at least remains invested until reallocated (unless lost due to being temporary or receiving essentia damage). Though if the designers intended this to be continuous, then it would be questionable as to why they made it at will except perhaps for non-combat interactions where you don't want to be covered in shadows and then must activate it when a fight suddenly breaks out, but I digress.

The "at will" line makes it nigh unuseable if it isn't continuous. I am however curious about what you think the duration is since it isn't specified. Rules Compendium and SRD don't seem to specify a default duration, maybe it doesn't do anything because its instantaneous.

[DragoonWraith]

I know Tome of Magic specifies that for the Binder's Vestige-granted-abilities that are at-will, if no duration is specified they're assumed to be activated at the beginning of the Pact and remain on unless the Binder decides to turn them off...

[Curmudgeon]

I know page 50 (MoI) states that class abilities requiring essentia work like soulmelds for the purpose of investing essentia.

Yes, that covers investing essentia (defaults to a swift action).

These receptacles are treated as soulmelds for the putpose of investing essentia into them

There's no mention of treating class abilities the same as soulmelds beyond the investment; individual class abilities then specify duration. Just a couple of examples: The Incandescent Champion's Fast Healing Supernatural class ability has a full specification of

• activation (no action)
• essentia investment (swift action -- the default)
• duration (IC levels in rounds/day)

The IC's Unbearable Countenance ability, on the other hand, says: "This ability is always active."

The "at will" line makes it nigh unuseable if it isn't continuous. I am however curious about what you think the duration is since it isn't specified.

"At will" specifies something you can select when it's your turn. You get a turn each round, and that's when you can choose to activate the ability; hence the 1 round duration as the simplest likelihood. Embrace of Shadow would need a declaration like that for Unbearable Countenance if it were to be always active. That's just not there.

Without a specification of extended duration, Embrace of Shadow is still useful for running away and hiding. That may not satisfy, but staying alive is still better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:

1) you get Eldritch Blast. I know, it doesn't sound like much, only 1d6, but think about everything you get:

a) It's a touch-attack you can use an unlimited number of times. Flat-Footed Touch Attack also means AC 10 + misc mods to AC. TRY missing this.

b) Darkness is also a viable Invocation. Why? Let's go to Drow of the Underdark to see what we can take: Blend Into Shadows (effectively HiPS), At Home In The Deep (effectively Devil's Sight invocation), Instinctive Darkness (use as an immediate action), and Fade Into Darkness (+5 on Hide checks). Darkness invocation + Blend Into Shadows = HIPS without needing steep feat prerequisites for Shadowdancer.

c) 4 level dip might be painful for lack of Sneak Attack, but Take 10 on UMD checks? Nice. Also, it still increases EB damage,

d) Eldritch Glaive. You can't TWF with it, but at least you get iterative attacks with it. As touch attacks

So, a 4 level dip nets you the following:

* A ranged touch attack that can never be disarmed, base damage 2d6 that can go up to 4d6 or higher with toys
* Take 10 on UMD checks
* +6 to social skills AND HiPS

FURTHERMORE:

If you can find a way to qualify for Unseen Seer (a one-level dip, most likely), you can use it to advance Warlock invocations without loosing too much on the Rogue side. Doing so nets you things like the ability to get into Hellfire Warlock relatively painlessly.

So, as a proposed build: Rogue3/Sorcerer1/Warlock1/USS 7/Mindbender1 (for Mindsight)/HFW3/etc...

Binder1 works very well for this, because Binder can do so much for your character as well as Strongheart Vest or Naberious to mitigate the Con damage from HFW.

As your Lesser Invocations, you pick up Charm Person, which is always nice for certain social and combat situations, which lets you get into Mindbender for Mindsight, so you can never be surprised. Then you take Hellfire blast to get into HFW.

Least Invocations: Beguiling Influence, Darkness, either Eldritch Glaive or Dark One's Own Luck depending on if you wish to do more damage or more defense.

You pick up Golemstrike, Gravestrike, and Vinestrike through Advanced Spell Learning.

If you choose to advance casting with more USS, you can get things like Flee The Scene for a 'Get Out Of Trouble' card, Voracious Dispelling or Relentless Dispelling for debuffing opponent casters, or Fell Flight for mobility ability.

If you get a Greater Invocation, make it Vitriolic Blast so you ignore SR.

[Curmudgeon]

I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:
...
b) Darkness is also a viable Invocation. Why? Let's go to Drow of the Underdark to see what we can take: Blend Into Shadows (effectively HiPS), At Home In The Deep (effectively Devil's Sight invocation), Instinctive Darkness (use as an immediate action), and Fade Into Darkness (+5 on Hide checks). Darkness invocation + Blend Into Shadows = HIPS without needing steep feat prerequisites for Shadowdancer.

Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here.

Benefit: You can see through the shadowy illumination created by a darkness spell as if the spell weren’t there.

While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.

Blend Into Shadows is fine for letting you Hide, but since At Home in the Deep doesn't cut through your enemy's concealment you can't sneak attack them. You actually have to use the Devil's Sight invocation here, which means you need more than just the one least invocation you get as Warlock 1.

[true_shinken]

I'd just like to point out you can't take both Thug and Hit and Run substitutions as a fighter. Both give up heavy armor proficiency; once you give it up for one, you don't have it to give up fot the other.

Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here. While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.

Just take Devil's Sight then. Also, since that line of feats is intended to work with spell-like abilities, I doubt that should ever arise as a problem.

[PId6]

Is there a TWF handbook? I constantly see references to how TWF rogues are more optimized than other melee rogues, but never any details on how to actually optimize a TWF rogue.

No, but it's simple enough. Take Weapon Finesse (which you'd want anyway), the TWF tree, wield a light weapon in offhand, avoid Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Rend, and all of the other bad TWF-specific feats, and for everything else just take anything that's good for melee rogues (Craven). It's feat-intensive, but worth it since you get so many extra attacks.

OP, maybe I missed it and someone already said it, but what about the Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack?

I liked the free action feint.. does some build with it exist?

Will look into.

Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you more attacks when you can make a full attack; the rest of the time this feat does nothing for you. Getting those extra attacks requires that you don't need to use a move action in any round, so it's quite situation-dependent.

At higher levels, full attacking trumps non-full attack damage so much that you're much better off just focusing on it and getting ways to allow you to full attack every round (just like every other melee character). Pounce, caster/familiar casting Benign Transposition, Travel Devotion, 10-ft steps, etc (I believe Person_Man has a thread about that somewhere I'll have to dig up) all allow you to full attack each round along with movement. You're far better off trying to get full attacks every round than ignoring it and just dealing minor damage with one attack per round.

It applies at minimum a -2 penalty to all attacks.

The penalty is annoying, but not that significant at higher levels with a bit of optimization. -10% to-hit doesn't mean much when you've three extra attacks to make up for it.

Using it either doubles your costs for weapons, or has you using weapons with lower enhancement (so even less likely to hit).

Chained Greater Magic Weapon solves that problem, and is always a good idea regardless. You also actually get more special abilities for the same price, since two +5 weapons cost a lot less than a single +10. With each weapon attacking as many times as a non-TWFer would with one weapon, it works out quite nicely.

Feat cost: Selecting Two-Weapon Fighting means you didn't select something that would provide greater benefits (like Knowledge Devotion, which increases both hit chance and damage). And the returns on further feats in the TWF tree are worse: same cost (1 feat), but less chance of hitting with each one.

Yes, this is by far the biggest problem with TWF. Still, with the extra attacks they provide, I would say all of them are worth it, even GTWF.

The ideal main hand Rogue weapon is the rapier. Off hand weapons Rogues are proficient with can't match the rapier's threat range, which means you'll make fewer critical hits. (Or you'll incur a -4 penalty using dual rapiers, or a feat cost for Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead.)

You actually make more critical hits, even with a lower-crit weapon in the offhand, because you make more attacks. And with a dip in fighter, swordsage, or barbarian, you get access to Kukri. Besides, critical hits usually aren't that useful for rogues (without Telling Blow) since you don't double your Sneak Attack damage.

At the start of every encounter you must be equipped with a ranged weapon, or waste vital chances to sneak attack flat-footed foes: once in the surprise round (if your Spot and Listen are good), and for a full attack in the first regular round. But Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't help if you use a two-handed ranged weapon, like a bow. So you'll only benefit from TWF if you throw things (or grab loaded hand crossbows, which amounts to the same thing). Every thrown weapon the Rogue is proficient with will incur a range penalty within the 30' sneak attack limit, so you're less likely to hit. Plus when you get to BAB +6 you'll need Quick Draw or you'll be unable to full attack with your thrown weapons: more feat cost.

Or, you get pounce, letting you full attack flat-footed foes in both surprise round and the first round. And there's no reason you can't use ranged weapons and then draw regular weapons, because Quick Draw is gotten from the Least Crystal of Return, which costs a measly 300 gp each.

Because you're going to make full attacks, you're probably going to be in melee a lot, and thus at greater risk of being killed by full counterattacks.

I've already pointed that out in the combat styles section. TWF is optimal for melee rogues; whether that's worth the extra danger in comparison to ranged weapons is up to the player.

Another race to consider, if the DM allows it, is the Beguiler from Shining South. It gets a nice bonus to Dex and Int though takes a hit to Str, True Seeing, climb speed, and an insane bonus to Hide. It has natural attacks of claw, claw, bite, rake with Multiattack as a bonus feat. All this with +0 LA.

I remember it was LA +0 (cohort) or something. Will have to check.

Kind of surprised no one's mentioned Thri-Keen yet(from Expanded Psionics or Dark Sun). Who needs Dual-Wielding when you can Quad-Wield?

Will add that to the LA races section once I have time. Definitely use the MM2 version though; the psionic version isn't worth the extra LA.

I've always liked the Silver Key prestige class. How would you rate it for rogues?

Added to the list of things to look at.

Crippling Strike and Staggering Strike

Thanks for the info. Changed.

Samurai and Hexblade could use some mention in the multiclassing section. Both provide better HD and CHA-focused abilities, with CHA being arguably better for a Rogue to raise than STR. A Samurai dip gets you free TWF - for those who disagree with Curmudgeon's analysis - while Hexblade's Curse ability softens up opponents nicely for your team if you're using Mearls' suggested fix.

I'll take a look. Might be even better if you can convince your DM to give the CW Samurai Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill.

No, nothing like that. There is one multiclassing feat that ought to be added, though: Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357), which stacks Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and undead turning. Since sneak attack is a stronger ability than undead turning, this typically is used in a mostly-(Cloistered) Cleric build (Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric X).

That's a pretty good one. I'll have to dig it up and add it.

Love the handbook so far.

You might consider adding Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) to the list of potential prestige classes.

Thanks! I'll look into it. Will probably add a note about houseruling the Embrace of Shadow ability.

This seems relevant, and has been well received on similar threads.

Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

Also, you may wish to incorporate Spoiler tags into your handbook. It makes it easier to read.

It's already in the links section, but I'll see about adding the info somewhere else as well. I'll look into spoilers.

I'll put in my usual plug for a one-level dip in Master of Masks, Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all weapons means you can get some Thinblade/Lightblade two-weapon fighting without even spending any feats on proficiency. This is effectively an average of +2 to all damage with your primary attack (d6 rapier vs d8 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask) and either +1 or +2 for your second (d4 kukri or d6 shortsword vs d6 thinblade, +1 damage from the mask). The cost is low: 8 ranks in skills you'd probably consider taking anyway (bluff and disguise), 8 ranks in perform, and four languages. If your Int is high, you'll have a few of the languages already. So it really only costs 12 or so skill points. I'd call that a steal, and Rogues love a good steal.

I'd specifically mention in the Multiclassing section that the 20th level of Rogue is totally, completely, utterly worthless. Rogue19/Warrior1 is better than Rogue20. Rogue19/Expert1 gives Rogue20 a run for its money, depending on the class skills selected. (Iajutsu Focus, I'm looking at you). You have to get down to Rogue19/Commoner1 before Rogue20 is a clear winner.

I'm already considering Master of Masks for Assassin's Mask, and Gladiator's Mask does have some versatile uses. Will add eventually.

And the multclassing note is added. Rogue 20 really is a terrible level.

I would like to mention that there are several other nasty things you can do with a Warlock dip:

Very interesting. I'll add it to the list.

I'd just like to point out you can't take both Thug and Hit and Run substitutions as a fighter. Both give up heavy armor proficiency; once you give it up for one, you don't have it to give up fot the other.

Thanks, I've added that to the OP.

[faceroll]

Do racial bonuses stack?
Ie, a Shadow Whispergnome getting +a bajillion to move silent.

You also left out shadow pouncing, which a couple FR prcs get. You get to make full attacks after you teleport. Find ways to teleport as standard, move, and swift actions, and you're getting 3 full attacks/round.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sorry, but you've slipped on an important detail here. While the Darkness invocation behaves like the Darkness spell, it remains a spell-like ability. The At Home in the Deep feat only helps specifically with the Darkness spell. Not the Darkness invocation, the Deeper Darkness spell, or anything else.

Blend Into Shadows is fine for letting you Hide, but since At Home in the Deep doesn't cut through your enemy's concealment you can't sneak attack them. You actually have to use the Devil's Sight invocation here, which means you need more than just the one least invocation you get as Warlock 1.

Sorry, but I haven't. The Darkness Invocation grants you Darkness the spell, as a spell-like ability. Just like the Drow's racial spell-like abilities. In other words, if Drow can use it on their racial Darkness SLA, so too can a Warlock with his.

[Koury]

Ooo, new title. I approve.

[PId6]

Do racial bonuses stack?
Ie, a Shadow Whispergnome getting +a bajillion to move silent.

You also left out shadow pouncing, which a couple FR prcs get. You get to make full attacks after you teleport. Find ways to teleport as standard, move, and swift actions, and you're getting 3 full attacks/round.

According to Curmudgeon here they do. No idea about the source though.

It's on my to-add list (which is really really big right now). Are there any better shadow pouncer PrCs than Telflammar Shadowlord?

Ooo, new title. I approve.

Yep. Whoever thought of is must be a genius!

Thanks, by the way. Way better than the old one

[Curmudgeon]

The Darkness Invocation grants you Darkness the spell, as a spell-like ability.

That doesn't make any sense. These are different types of abilities, with different rules.

Invocations: A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul.
...
A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
...
Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat.

The Darkness invocation simulates the Darkness spell, but it's always a SLA rather than a spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That doesn't make any sense. These are different types of abilities, with different rules.
The Darkness invocation simulates the Darkness spell, but it's always a SLA rather than a spell.

And the feats explicitly work with Darkness as a spell-like ability, because they function with, and use charges of, and in fact has the prerequisite of, the Darkness spell-like ability, most commonly mentioned being the racial ability of Drow. If it didn't work with SLA's, then they would be completely worthless.

furthermore, it explicitly states in the description of the invocation "Use Darkness as the Spell".

So yes. It works.

[Coidzor]

You should consider adding a note to the Human Paragon multiclass option about how its last 2 levels will also advance any spellcasting classes that might be involved in the multiclass medley.

[Curmudgeon]

furthermore, it explicitly states in the description of the invocation "Use Darkness as the Spell".

Yes, Darkness as (to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly) the spell. Not Darkness the spell.

[PId6]

You should consider adding a note to the Human Paragon multiclass option about how its last 2 levels will also advance any spellcasting classes that might be involved in the multiclass medley.

Done. Thanks.

[herrhauptmann]

[SIZE="3"]
Mage Slayer^CArc – A great feat on its own. With any sort of reach, this feat can allow you to give enemy mages a very bad day. What’s even better about it is that it lets you qualify for Pierce Magical Concealment.

Pierce Magical Concealment^CArc – Its normal effect is awesome enough, letting you ignore enemy wizards with Blur or Displacement effects. However, the best part about this feat is that it lets you ignore the miss chance from your own Blink effects, making your own Ring of Blinking completely beneficial to you. If Blink is your primary means of denying Dex to AC for enemies (which is quite possible for ranged builds), this is almost a necessity. However, it does require Mage Slayer, which is worthless for ranged rogues, but this is worth the cost.

Just a small nitpick, pierce magical concealment requires you to have the feat blindfight.
I also might've missed it, but I don't think I saw whispergnome in your list. Nor their feat silencing strike. They get 'silence' as a SLA, and silencing strike lets them put silence on their sneak attack victim for free. Add in then the feat 'extra silence' for 3 extra uses per day.

Finally, another handbook.


Another edit: Skill Trick "Spot the weak point". Use your standard action to make a spot check with DC equal to opponents AC. Next attack is a touch attack.
Requires 12 ranks in spot which you should probably have anyway. Seems like it might be more effective for a brutal rogue, or one who can't reliably get a method of touch attacks or magical buffs (from allies or items).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, Darkness as (to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly) the spell. Not Darkness the spell.

So you are saying it is literally a worthless feat since it does not work with the ability it is expressedly and explicitly supposed to work with?

Why would anyone take it if it doesn't work with SLA's? Which is the ONLY WAY TO ACTIVATE IT.

You keep saying that, but I don't think it means what you think it means...

[Curmudgeon]

So you are saying it is literally a worthless feat since it does not work with the ability it is expressedly and explicitly supposed to work with?

Why would anyone take it if it doesn't work with SLA's? Which is the ONLY WAY TO ACTIVATE IT.

Huh? There's no activation for At Home in the Deep. It simply always works to see through a Darkness spell. This means that whenever an enemy tries to give themselves concealment with Darkness so you'll incur a miss chance and can't sneak attack them -- it fails.

It is, however, a limited feat. It doesn't work on other [Darkness] spells, not even Deeper Darkness, which is basically just more of the same effect.

[Jarian]

Curmudgeon, I hate to say it, but you're being, well, a curmudgeon.

You're intentionally choosing to read things in a way that invalidates a combination that you (apparently; I don't actually know you) don't like, but in doing so, you end up making a series of feats utterly pointless.

And you don't see any problem with that reading?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Huh? There's no activation for At Home in the Deep. It simply always works to see through a Darkness spell. This means that whenever an enemy tries to give themselves concealment with Darkness so you'll incur a miss chance and can't sneak attack them -- it fails.

It is, however, a limited feat. It doesn't work on other [Darkness] spells, not even Deeper Darkness, which is basically just more of the same effect.

From the SRD under Special Abilities:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

So even by the rules definition, you are wrong.

It isn't another spell with the [Darkness] descriptor. It is Darkness, it simply doesn't eat up spell slots, and in the case of a Warlock, may be used an unlimited number of times per day.

[PId6]

Just a small nitpick, pierce magical concealment requires you to have the feat blindfight.

I did forget. Added now.

I also might've missed it, but I don't think I saw whispergnome in your list. Nor their feat silencing strike. They get 'silence' as a SLA, and silencing strike lets them put silence on their sneak attack victim for free. Add in then the feat 'extra silence' for 3 extra uses per day.

Whisper Gnome is up there. I'll add the two feats to my "to do" list.

Finally, another handbook.

That's the one that's 5 years old with a lot of outdated and sometimes just wrong information (Illumians get 6 sigils? Whaaa?).

Another edit: Skill Trick "Spot the weak point". Use your standard action to make a spot check with DC equal to opponents AC. Next attack is a touch attack.
Requires 12 ranks in spot which you should probably have anyway. Seems like it might be more effective for a brutal rogue, or one who can't reliably get a method of touch attacks or magical buffs (from allies or items).

It's on there, but it's not really all that useful. Taking two rounds to make a single touch attack is a pretty bad use of actions. You've much better options in the form of touch spells (Wand of Acid Splash is very cheap), splash weapons, and Wraithstrike. Good enough for a skill trick, I guess.