Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Wraith]

Sorry.

Page 8 of the PDF codex.

Ah, that would be the models leading me astray with their cunning "My stormbolter is welded to my forearm so that my hand is free" treachery. Thank you.

Even so, it's just a Stormbolter. I know it's an argument that I've made before, but I'm prepared to give up quite a lot of otherwise sensible options for my own version of a 'heroic' Grand Master.
Besides, if he is standing back and sniping and isn't in close combat making best use of his five s6/8 attacks then I'm probably doing something wrong again.

The Black Templars codex refers to a rule that no-longer exists (firing priorities) and forces them to use it anyway according to the FAQ.

The Tau codex has a rather substantial amount of wargear dedicated to Target Priority tests.

I've learned from my previous mistakes, and deliberately qualified the statement with "that I can think of". I didn't say that they definitely didn't exist!

And I'm pretty sure that neither of them are Fleet either....

[Zimfan]

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Actually, not really. AoBR is really good for Orks. Warboss, 20 Boyz and a couple of Koptas. Not only do you have a solid HQ, 2 Troops and pretty much the only Fast Attack choice worth having in the Codex, you get 5 Nobz as well! Well, the Nobz aren't great, you'll be cutting them up and/or replacing them with better things soon enough.

The only thing comparable for Orks in price is the Battleforce, which is 20 Boyz, a Trukk and a couple of Bikes. Which most people convert up to a Warboss and two Nob friends (with more to come later). The Trukk fudges up the Battleforce IMO, because it means splitting your Boyz into two units. And a unit of 10 Boyz on foot doesn't do much.

AoBR is roughly worth it for the Koptas alone, because you're not going to find plastic Koptas anywhere else. Especially not ones with Rokkits. Like I said, they're a Fast Attack choice worth having.

If price isn't an issue...Well, it depends on what kind of army you want to make.

That makes it an easy decision. The Orks are already well worth the price, and it will be nice to have the extra templates and dice. Plus, a Dreadnought and terminators (poorly optimized, but they and the tactical marines will make a good painting project to learn from).

Price isn't too much of an issue in the long run, although I'm not quite sure what type of army to make. I've been doing research into how Orks tend to be played, but I'll need to play quite a few games to get a good feel of what direction I want to go.

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I second all of this. A good chunk of my Ork force comes from several copies on the AoBR set - I think I got it twice from SM players who didn't need it. Deffkoptas are. The. Shiz. You want them. You want them so hard.

And three of the metal ones retail for more than the whole AoBR set. Looks like I know how I'll be starting my Ork army.

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Oh dude if you are an Ork player than Black Reach is your best friend. Cheesegear already summed it up pretty good, but I can personally attest that it is a rockin' investment.

Lemme break it down for you. If you can find somebody to split it with or somehow sell off the Marines to make up for half the cost, you're get 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs, 3 Koptas, and a Warboss, an army worth about 480 points without upgrades, for 35 dollars or so.

Now, at basic market value, 20 Boyz would be 40 bucks. The Nobs another 20, the Warboss about 15, and the Koptas... well, I forget how much their worth, but since you can't get them any other way and they're a friggin' awesome unit, they're worth quite a bit. So yeah, for 30 bucks you're getting over 75 dollars worth of Orks. Sure, you don't get all the extra weapons and gear the normal kits come with, but your don't need those just yet.

Now you've got a nice little Ork army. And hopefully the Codex. Trust me - you want the Codex. Codex-less Orks are a shadow of their potential power. Furious Charge, Waaaaagghh!!, and things like Heavy Armor for you Boyz? Mmmmm, Dead Stompy.

(cough cough I neglected to get the Codex for awhile, despite everyone's advice... I regret that decision... cough cough)

After you've gotten an understanding of your new army, you'll need a bit more Dakka. Get a Boyz kit. Just a basic 20 dollars Boyz kit. Boyz are the basis of a good Ork army, and you can never have too many of them. (Green Tide tactics, baby!) This will give your army some extra oomph, especially if you make them into Shoota Boyz or kitbash them together with your AoBR boyz for some cool-looking models. Also, you'll be able to practice your conversions on these new models. Believe me when I say this - the ability to convert and customize your models is an extremely useful skill for Ork players to have. I've got a scratch-built/Kustom Killa Kan, Painboy, Loota Squad, and a few other fun things. Being able to convert one model into another is not only a useful skill to have, but it saves money. And more money means more Dakka.

Once you know what you're doing, and you feel comfortable with your army choice, I'd say pick up a Battleforce. 20 more Boyz, 2 more Nobs, a Trukk, and three Bikers for 90 (or less!) bucks? Excellent, excellent deal. And if you've learned how to convert and kustomize like a true Mekboy by now... oh yeah. It is a most excellent deal.



Like most of the other guys are saying, though, start small. Don't rush out and buy the Assault on Black Reach kit, the Codex, an Ork Battleforce, and an extra Boyz kit or two all at once. You will quickly find yourself overwhelmed by the sheer number of models, and if you decide you don't like Orks... well, better hope you can find a good buyer.

Thanks for the tips.

I'm looking forward to the conversion potential Orks have (and especially being able to turn other armies' vehicles into looted versions, although it will be some time before I'm up to that. ).

I think I avoided buying too much right off the bat. I ended up ordering the Assault on Black Reach set, one box of Boyz, and the codex, as well as some paints I'll need for them. I plan not to buy anymore more until I get those ones painted.

[Cheesegear]

I've been doing research into how Orks tend to be played, but I'll need to play quite a few games to get a good feel of what direction I want to go.

Play more games. Don't take this the wrong way but, Orks are not a top-tier army. The way you will end up playing your Orks drastically depends on your meta-game (who you will play against regularly) because not all the choices in the Ork Codex are good choices against every army.

Orks are very, very much a 'What works for you' army. I wouldn't put much stock into 'research' on how to play Orks, because there's a good chance that they might not work for you.

For example; Shoota or Slugga Boyz? Both are very good choices in their own way, but it depends on what you want to use them for. How many do you take? Numbers vary anywhere between 12 and 30. Some players (like me) think 30 Orks are a terrible idea. Other players love having 30 Boyz for extra weapons, and extra wounds to stay Fearless longer, not to mention attacks.

...Although, to be fair, deciding what to do with your Boyz and how many is probably the hardest thing an Ork player has to decide. The rest is relatively straightforward depending on your play-style.

One of the most effective Ork set ups that I've seen deals in a lot of ranged weapons fire and a fairly static deployment of Troops. This does not gel with a lot of players in the hobby because they don't believe that Orks should do that. And, obviously, making a ranged army is not the reason why people play Orks, that style of play doesn't fit 'the norm'. But the guy still does it because its what works.

I once made a post (that I can't currently find) on how you should play Orks. Since I can't find it, I'll give you a summary; More Boyz. That's about the only thing I can say that is universal for all Ork armies.

I think I avoided buying too much right off the bat. I ended up ordering the Assault on Black Reach set, one box of Boyz, and the codex, as well as some paints I'll need for them. I plan not to buy anymore more until I get those ones painted.

I'd order another box of Boyz to make it a round 40 Boyz.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Even so, it's just a Stormbolter. I know it's an argument that I've made before, but I'm prepared to give up quite a lot of otherwise sensible options for my own version of a 'heroic' Grand Master.
Besides, if he is standing back and sniping and isn't in close combat making best use of his five s6/8 attacks then I'm probably doing something wrong again.

The wargear list allows a grand master to take a heavy weapon. I'd rather spend 25 points on that than on a hammer I might never use.

[Zimfan]

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Play more games. Don't take this the wrong way but, Orks are not a top-tier army. The way you will end up playing your Orks drastically depends on your meta-game (who you will play against regularly) because not all the choices in the Ork Codex are good choices against every army.

Orks are very, very much a 'What works for you' army. I wouldn't put much stock into 'research' on how to play Orks, because there's a good chance that they might not work for you.

For example; Shoota or Slugga Boyz? Both are very good choices in their own way, but it depends on what you want to use them for. How many do you take? Numbers vary anywhere between 12 and 30. Some players (like me) think 30 Orks are a terrible idea. Other players love having 30 Boyz for extra weapons, and extra wounds to stay Fearless longer, not to mention attacks.

...Although, to be fair, deciding what to do with your Boyz and how many is probably the hardest thing an Ork player has to decide. The rest is relatively straightforward depending on your play-style.

One of the most effective Ork set ups that I've seen deals in a lot of ranged weapons fire and a fairly static deployment of Troops. This does not gel with a lot of players in the hobby because they don't believe that Orks should do that. And, obviously, making a ranged army is not the reason why people play Orks, that style of play doesn't fit 'the norm'. But the guy still does it because its what works.

I once made a post (that I can't currently find) on how you should play Orks. Since I can't find it, I'll give you a summary; More Boyz. That's about the only thing I can say that is universal for all Ork armies.



I'd order another box of Boyz to make it a round 40 Boyz.

I'm aware they're not a top tier army. I decided to try them because I like the fluff and they seem like an army that would be incredibly fun to play whether I win or lose.

My plan is to play as many games as I can and slowly get a feel for what works for me.

A shooty Ork army sounds awesome. I actually thought about one but wasn't sure if it would work with Orks.

I'll add another box of Boyz to my list to buy, although it will likely have to wait until after the holidays. It should take me at least that long to paint the ones I ordered, anyway.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought orks were at least a tier 2 army. Their codex was pretty good when it was new.

I haven't used or fought them in a while. Been using fantasy orcs instead.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Point for point, Shoota Boyz are more accurate than Marines.

I would consider myself relatively savvy when it comes to list optimisation, and I am of the opinion that large Nob squads (as troops; they have both the CC potency and durability that makes them useful), Lootas, and Deff Rollas are fairly integral to an Ork battle plan, as well as a large Shoota Boy squad for holding mid-field objectives.
Whilst not top tier, I believe that are still quite competitive.

[Wraith]

The wargear list allows a grand master to take a heavy weapon. I'd rather spend 25 points on that than on a hammer I might never use.

All of a sudden, having read the small print, I'm not even sure that Grey Knight heroes can take any more weaponry.

The Wargear list says that "Characters can have up to two weapons, one of which may be two-handed". That's not 'take' - that's 'have', presumably 'in total'. Grey Knights - unlike Inquisitors who are more likely to take the weird and wonderful combinations of equipment - already have two weapons, a Nemesis Weapon and a Storm-Bolter.

The best I can find is shenanigans under the rules for True Grit, which says that a Grey knight can "use a Storm Bolter like a lesser creature would use a pistol" (specifically, pistols are one-handed), but it still doesn't help because there are still no uses of the magical words 'exchange' or 'replaces' under their entries.

Unless there is an obscure rule in the BBB that says any character may voluntarily forgo a 'free' weapon or piece of 'free' equipment for no cost - I'm very sure it says no such thing in any of the Codices - they're already at their limit.

Anyone help me out with this one? I'm starting to think that Grey Knights have specifically been designed to only use Stormbolters and Nemesis Weapons - hardly a great sacrifice in the great scheme of things, I know, but a little leeway would be nice.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I've always seen it played that you can "lose" weapons if you buy a replacement. Why would daemonhammers say "inquisitors and grey knights only" when only inquisitors have the free slots to carry one?

If your ruling is true then in 3rd and 4th edition Space Marine sergeants wouldn't have been able to take power fists or weapons.

True Grit doesn't apply to terminators anyway.

[hamishspence]

Unless there is an obscure rule in the BBB that says any character may voluntarily forgo a 'free' weapon or piece of 'free' equipment for no cost - I'm very sure it says no such thing in any of the Codices - they're already at their limit.

In 4E and 5E, many codicies allowed you to start off with good stuff, and buy more in addition to that- no "maximum number of weapons" there.

In Space Wolves codex and Chaos codex, basic troopers (Grey Hunters, Chaos Warriors) get a pistol, CCW, and bolter- two one-handed weapons, and a two-handed weapon.

Justiciars are explicitly stated as unable to exchange their basic weapons- but not GK Terminator champions, and GK Heroes.

[Wraith]

I probably am just hugely over-thinking the matter.

I know it makes sense that a Hero Grey Knight can take equipment other than his halberd and stormbolter, and that a lot of what I'm thinking is sour grapes towards an old Codex that doesn't give me as much stuff to play with as the newer ones

Would be nice if the wording was less ambiguous though. "Characters can have two weapons..."; is that "Have (in total)" or "Have (from the list)"? Do they "Take" or "Exchange" their equipment? How exactly do those two questions interact and can he in fact Take one weapon and Exchange another?

*sigh* I blame Stern for this. If he wasn't so dumb as to go without a helmet and he didn't have a shockingly poorly-sculpted hand that needs replacing, I would never have gone down this path in the first place

[Klose_the_Sith]

I'd order another box of Boyz to make it a round 40 Boyz.

Also buying two boxes of Boyz to go with your Black Reach will give you Two Nobz w/Klaws for your squads of 20. The importance of this cannot be understated

I would consider myself relatively savvy when it comes to list optimisation, and I am of the opinion that large Nob squads (as troops; they have both the CC potency and durability that makes them useful), Lootas, and Deff Rollas are fairly integral to an Ork battle plan, as well as a large Shoota Boy squad for holding mid-field objectives.
Whilst not top tier, I believe that are still quite competitive.

Well, maybe to your battle plan. Kults of speed, Kan Walls and pure Green Tide are just as capable of working. The thing about working the Ork codex is that although there are a lot of good units, there isn't that much synergy. So you have to find your own. I do like the sound of your hybrid list, seeing as it's pretty much what I'm going to make, though.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Hmm. Looking back on that it seems more than a little arrogant. I meant it to sound less "my way or the highway" and more "this is what I've found works the best".

A good thing about the Orks is you don't really need synergy to be effective. Basically, Ork synergy is "everything does what it's meant to"; where "what it's meant to" usually means smashing things.

On Boyz: I find that, unless you're running a Green Tide army, Slugga Boyz should always be in a transport. AoBR and two Boyz gives you 23 Shoota Boyz w/Nob and 19 Slugga Boyz w/Nob (perfect size to go in a Battlewagon with an IC). You can buy sets of Black Reach Boyz for peanuts on eBay, so it's kind of a waste to build Boyz kits as Sluggas or Big Shootas.

e: Lootas are always good though regardless of what type of army you run.

[Lycan 01]

Sounds like you're off to a great start, Zimfan.


If you're going to be buying another Boyz kit, that's alright. More Boyz is always a good choice. If you want to get two kits, though, I'd suggest you just go ahead and spring for the Battleforce, especially since you can easily get it for about 75 bucks on Amazon or some other online resource. That way, you'll get your 20 Boyz + 2 Nobs, as well as a Trukk and a trio of Ork Bikers. Those will give you some new tactical options, which you may find useful or more enjoyable than what you've been doing.

A single trukk isn't all that useful, since a sole vehicle is quite the bullet magnet, and a squad of 10 Boyz doesn't have Fearless and tends to get shot up fast. You'll likely need another Trukk or two to get the full effectiveness out of the vehicles. But, if you want to put a single trukk to use, I'd say throw some 'Ard Boyz in that sucker, or your Nob Squad. OR go crazy with some conversions and make it a Battlewagon - that's what I'm doing.

Also, here's one cool thing you can do with the Battleforce. The trio of Ork Bikers has options to make one into a Nob Biker. Well, if you take the two Nobs from the Boyz kits in the Battleforce and just put them on the bikes, then the unit can count as Biker Nobs rather than Ork Bikers. And Biker Nobs are fun.

Alternatively, you can put a Painboy on one of those bikes. This is a bit tricky, though, because it either involves putting half a metal model on a plastic bike, or building a "kustom" model from a Boy, some greenstuff, and some plasticard/model bits.


BUT, I should point out that Biker Nobs, even without the Painboy and other awesome upgrades, are a huuuuuuge investment of points. I'm talking hundreds of points just for 3-5 models. They can be pretty effective, but you're taking a huge gamble with them. I wouldn't use them in a lower level game since you need those points to grab as many Boyz as you can...

Cheesegear can (and will, I'm sure. ) give better advice than me on that...

[Cheesegear]

I thought orks were at least a tier 2 army. Their codex was pretty good when it was new.

Whilst not top tier, I believe that are still quite competitive.

Orks are now a T3 army with the introduction of Dark Eldar now properly into the mix. Orks are only competitive in very specific instances now, as Blood Angels, Tyranids and - now - Dark Eldar can do pretty much everything Orks do, better.

With Dark Eldar now properly in the meta-game, Tau get shafted into T4.

A good thing about the Orks is you don't really need synergy to be effective.

This is not true at all. Every army excpet for Space Wolves and Blood Angels needs to have units that synergise.

On Boyz: I find that, unless you're running a Green Tide army, Slugga Boyz should always be in a transport. AoBR and two Boyz gives you 23 Shoota Boyz w/Nob and 19 Slugga Boyz w/Nob (perfect size to go in a Battlewagon with an IC).

"Unless you do [...]" means your army must synergise or be useless. Well done for contradicting yourself.

[Closet_Skeleton]

With Dark Eldar now properly in the meta-game, Tau get shafted into T4.

From the game I played I'm not so sure that Tau are shafted against Dark Eldar. 6 broadsides can kill a lot of raiders. Fire warriors will tear most dark eldar units apart in shooting. The edge probably goes to Dark Eldar I'll admit but Tau can do a lot of damage.

Tau have no reason to be deploying near the edge of the line.

This is not true at all. Every army excpet for Space Wolves and Blood Angels needs to have units that synergise.

Blood angels need synergy. Sanguinary Priests just synergise with most things. The most popular BA HQ seems to be a librarian with buff powers.

[Cheesegear]

From the game I played I'm not so sure that Tau are shafted against Dark Eldar. 6 broadsides can kill a lot of raiders. Fire warriors will tear most dark eldar units apart in shooting. The edge probably goes to Dark Eldar I'll admit but Tau can do a lot of damage.

But that's not what Tiers mean. The Tiers mean "How many variants of your army can you take and still be competitive?"

i.e; How many units in the Codex are actually good? Must you take certain things?

As it stands, there's one (or none, depending on who you ask) way to build a competitive Tau army. And that's why its Tier 4.

Blood angels need synergy. Sanguinary Priests just synergise with most things. The most popular BA HQ seems to be a librarian with buff powers.

No they don't. Those just happen to be things that do synergise, since the only other option is the Captain, which sucks in comparison. Its not that they need to synergise, but, it just so happens that the best things in the army, do.

You don't need Sanguinary Priests to be competitive. You only need the Librarian for the Psychic Hood, anything else you give him (by way of powers) are just gravy. And players with balls don't even take Librarians.

The most popular Librarian has buff powers. The best Librarian has debuff powers. Which Mephiston doesn't have.

Hell, take the Captain, and load up on Librarian Dreadnoughts. That's competitive too.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Fair enough, we have different definitions of 'synergy' and, after further thought, mine is wrong. I withdraw my point.

I'm not precisely sure how Orks fare against DE, since I don't have the army any more and can't test anything. I would imagine that, excepting Lootas (which are still awesome), they wouldn't perform very well due to the weight of S8 shooting (dead Nobs, Wagons, Kans) and volume of fire (making numbers mean very little).

[Closet_Skeleton]

But that's not what Tiers mean. The Tiers mean "How many variants of your army can you take and still be competitive?"

i.e; How many units in the Codex are actually good? Must you take certain things?

As it stands, there's one (or none, depending on who you ask) way to build a competitive Tau army. And that's why its Tier 4.

I'll agree, but your point was that Dark Eldar made them Tier 4, which I'm not sure is the case.

Is there a specific previously popular tau build that Dark Eldar have removed?

The most popular Librarian has buff powers. The best Librarian has debuff powers. Which Mephiston doesn't have.

Mephiston doesn't even have buff powers, he just has to take leadership tests to use all his rules.

I take a librarian because he's cheap and doesn't pull too many points away from my power armour horde.

[Cheesegear]

I would imagine that, excepting Lootas (which are still awesome), they wouldn't perform very well due to the weight of S8 shooting (dead Nobs, Wagons, Kans) and volume of fire (making numbers mean very little).

Yep. The other thing that separates them, is that Dark Eldar are more likely to get off the Assault than the Orks are, negating Orks' Furious Charge, while the DE can have their own Furious Charge, and/or poison, negating their better Toughness. Orks' Initiative also sucks. Like, really bad.

A lot of Dark Eldar units also have Defensive Grenades available to them. Which means that even weight of attacks is less of an issue even if you do get the Assault off.

Orks also lack a lot of S6+ weapons and Power Weapons. Orks' Invulnerables kind of suck too. And with the amount of high-Initiative Instant Death effects that Dark Eldar have, even Nob Bikers quickly get killed in Assault. Remember, your Painboy is useless against Instant Death effects.
I tested Grotesques against them. They succeeded. Power Klaws don't even cause Instant Death. Well, except for the Warboss'. But the Aberration nails him before he gets to even attack...S6 Poison that causes Instant Death is awesome.

Is there a specific previously popular tau build that Dark Eldar have removed?

No, see, there's Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Blood Angels. In addition to Chaos Marines and Space Wolves that already existed (and Orks, I guess). What's happening, is that the meta-game is changing. Dark Eldar are more like the last straw on the proverbial camel.

Fast-moving Assault armies are fast becoming already the norm. Or, you've even got the Fast-moving vehicles carrying deadly weapons. Like Blood Angel Razorbacks with TL Lascannons.

The fact is, there only is one effective Tau list. And it doesn't exactly work anymore in a game that allows First-Turn Deep Strikes, Fast, Scouting Heavy Flamers and Lascannons. Fast Dark Lances. Scouting Vendettas with trip-Lascannons, etc.

You've got Wolf Scouts coming in from your table edge being fairly popular. You've got armies starting with nothing on the board and letting you go first to 'waste' a round of shooting. You've got Bike-lists running around with all Twin-Linked Bolters and packed to the brim with Melta weapons to take out anything in the game.

You've got He'Stan-ing Land Speeders with Heavy Flamers. Not to mention Deep Striking Ironclads. I know Ironclad Ozai has tons of fun against Tau.

Its not just Dark Eldar. Its the fact that Dark Eldar is now the flavour of the month in a meta-game that already isn't suited to Tau. Straw. Camel.

I take a librarian because he's cheap and doesn't pull too many points away from my power armour horde.

Yeah, but you certainly don't have to. That's what makes Blood Angels so good. You can make your HQ anything you want, and still take a Librarian Dreadnought anyway if you want a Psychic Hood.

[Wraith]

Orks are now a T3 army with the introduction of Dark Eldar now properly into the mix. Orks are only competitive in very specific instances now, as Blood Angels, Tyranids and - now - Dark Eldar can do pretty much everything Orks do, better.

With Dark Eldar now properly in the meta-game, Tau get shafted into T4.

Indulge us please, Cheesegear?
I'm not really one for Tournaments - 'a grown man messing around with toy soldiers' seems to sum up my play style mostly - so my own interpretations would just be the top 3 or 4 armies and then guesswork, but I think this'd be a really interesting topic to add to the OP if you could spare the time.

Here's a list of Tiers - 1, 2, 3, 4 and (god help them) 5. Which armies do you think go where, and why? (Not asking for an essay, just naming a couple of key units would be great )
If you wants to rank different Army Builds against others (Green Tide vs. Biker/Vehicle Spam) I'd love to see that too.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yep. The other thing that separates them, is that Dark Eldar are more likely to get off the Assault than the Orks are, negating Orks' Furious Charge, while the DE can have their own Furious Charge, and/or poison, negating their better Toughness. Orks' Initiative also sucks. Like, really bad.

The extra toughness is pretty handy in melee. Orks are used to going last anyway.

Most of the dark eldar's poison is in guns, orks are used to guns wounding them on 4s and allowing no save. Of course then there's wracks.

I've seen lots of people building Dark Eldar, but I haven't seen that many people playing them. In fact I'm pretty much the only one i've seen use them.

Orks also lack a lot of S6+ weapons and Power Weapons.

Uge Choppas on nob's mobs not popular I'm guessing?

For shooting its pretty much grotzookas and then their subpar battlecannons.

Killa kans would be good against dark eldar, but you'd need a lot of them to survive the lances. You're also hitting on 5s in melee against some things.

Tau aren't that bad for S6 guns.

Yeah, but you certainly don't have to. That's what makes Blood Angels so good. You can make your HQ anything you want, and still take a Librarian Dreadnought anyway if you want a Psychic Hood.

I've ordered a venerable dread to convert into a librarian, but the speed at which my dreadnoughts die and the reliability at which my librarians die makes me doubt them.

I was planning on being very careful with him and flying him from cover to cover until the rest of the army was in position for a combined strike.

[Cheesegear]

Here's a list of Tiers - 1, 2, 3, 4 and (god help them) 5. Which armies do you think go where, and why? (Not asking for an essay, just naming a couple of key units would be great )

Mostly, the 'Tiers' are about how good the Codex is. Can you make 'bad choices' when writing your army, does the 'dex have its fair share of 'trap' units? Do its competitive builds stand up to the competitive builds of other Codecies? Its also not necessarily how competitive an individual build is, but, rather, how many competitive builds you can make.

Tier 1. Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

As long as you're not making obviously bad choices, if you can even find a 'bad choice' to take in the first place, these army will be rather good no matter what you take. It's actually kind of hard to make a truly bad list out of these Codecies.

Tier 2. Codex Marines, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard

There's a couple of bad choices to make within each Codex, but, you can easily make almost any build you want perfectly well without them. There are even some competitive builds that make use of those 'bad' units, which, in particular lists, become quite good.

Note: Chaos Daemons is definitely a T2 army if you assume that the dice will roll averages. But, of course that's a rather generous assumption.

Tier 3. Eldar, Orks, Black Templars and Witch Hunters

Two, maybe three competitive lists you can build out of these Codecies. Even their 'good' units aren't really all that good when you compare them to higher Tiered Codecies with similar units. If you bring these armies to a tournament, there's a rather good chance that your opponent(s) will know exactly how your army works and be prepared to deal with it.

Tier 4. Necrons, Daemonhunters (), Tau, Dark Angels

Depending on who you ask, there is either one way to build a competitive list, or, the 'dex just simply isn't competitive at all. If you take these lists to a tournament, you kind of need to be really lucky and have the dice go your way...A lot.

A special note on Daemon and Witch Hunters;

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The Allies rules - if you have them - make both Codecies T2. The ability to include Infantry Platoons into your lists is rather good. Alternatively, you can take the minimum/cheapest and/or best things you can out of Codex Marines - or Imperial Guard - and then follow that up with as many D/W Hunter units as you can can make for some rather weird lists that a couple of lists around aren't ready to deal with.

Power Armour and Bolters. I can deal with Marines. Wait, you mean they've got Meatshields in front of them? Oh, that's different. What? Why are your Grey Knights in Chimeras?

If you wants to rank different Army Builds against others (Green Tide vs. Biker/Vehicle Spam) I'd love to see that too.

You might love to see it, but there's no way I can do it. There's just too many builds. Especially in the higher Codecies. Individual, competitive lists are completely different to a competitive Codex.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Most of the dark eldar's poison is in guns, orks are used to guns wounding them on 4s and allowing no save. Of course then there's wracks.

Agonisers laugh at, well, damn near anything.

Uge Choppas on nob's mobs not popular I'm guessing?

Not really, since they cost points and you lose an attack. Might see more use now, though.

For shooting its pretty much grotzookas and then their subpar battlecannons.

And Lootas. (I'm rather fond of Lootas. Can you tell?)

[Arcanoi]

Tau can jump themselves to Tier 2/3 by spamming Crisis Suits and Broadsides/Hammerheads and nothing else.

[Irbis]

Tau can jump themselves to Tier 2/3 by spamming Crisis Suits and Broadsides/Hammerheads and nothing else.

How exactly spamming two units helps you make more competitive lists?

Sorry if I misunderstood you, all I know of WH40K tabletop is what Codices I read for my pet project :P

[Tazar]

Because Crisis Suits and Broadsides/Hammerheads are damn good units.

This also avoids the problem of having too many tanks feeding KPs with their gun drone passengers (fix that already, GW!)

I'd put Guard top tier; it's got some bad options, but dear Lord is it a strong book. Placing it under SW and Blood Angels doesn't really seem fair; the majority of stuff in the Guard book is very, very strong. You can't really go wrong building a Guard list, either.

[Winterwind]

Crisis Suits have a very high and versatile firepower, Broadsides can bring down anything the Crisis Suits can't manage. Thanks to Shield Drones, they also have good, cheap ablative wounds with a good Invulnerable save.

This said, Crisis Suits still are basically just Marines and Broadsides Terminators when it comes to durability (they have more wounds, but are also a lot more expensive). And, while much better in assault than Firewarriors, they still falter there. And since competitive lists are good at dealing with Marines and Terminators, often in ways that cause instant death to T4 models... well, I think perhaps they could make it to tier 3 this way, but that's being generous. And certainly not farther.


I agree on Imperial Guard belonging into the first tier though. That amount of firepower is simply sickening.

[Zorg]

You can't really go wrong building a Guard list, either.

Nuthin' but Penal Legion, Rough Riders and Punishers - yeah baby!

[crazedloon]

Nuthin' but Penal Legion, Rough Riders and Punishers - yeah baby!

but it would look so awesome. I can see it now, the punishers are drawn by penal legionnaires (fuel is to important to waste on this rabble) and are meant to dissuade the penal legionnaires from revolting; the rough riders are officers leading each penal squad, whip in hand and button on the explosive collar remotes. The rough riders by themselves are those men who have "luckily" lost their prisoners to enemy combatants and have banded together for glory and the emperor...... now I want to make this army.