"Anathem" - the backlash begins

[bosssmiley]

or: 'I already read "A Canticle for Leibowitz".'

xkcd.com gets the boot in first.

Personal view: was this latest Stephenson volume really done by the same guy who wrote "Diamond Age", "Cryptonomicon" and "The Baroque Cycle", or has Brian Herbert been rooting through someone else's waste paper basket?

[Tirian]

Making up words left and right is a misdemeanor (although I will that Frank Herbert deserves to share in the Carroll exemption), but transcribing an alien dialect into English and doing so with heavy use of apostrophes and unorthodox spellings (like "krytoses" using kr- instead of cr-) is a felony.

[kamikasei]

I had forgotten the book was due, this thread is an unpleasant way to be reminded.

[Erothayce]

Does A Clockwork Orange count in the category of blasphemy against the english language in terms of made up words?

[Sharrow]

Nope, that is as awesome book in all respects.

[Cubey]

Wow, "farmlings"? And here I thought younglings was the most pretentious name for kids ever.

[Azukius]

I think Joyce must stand as the epitomal example of authors exempt.

[pingcode20]

I think the thing about made up words isn't that 'No, you shouldn't, but there are exceptions', it's more along the lines of:

Unless you're one of a very few writers who can pull it off, don't try to make up a lot of words. No, if you have to consider it, you're not one of them.

[Person_Man]

I think the general rule of thumb is that if you're going to make up words, your story has to be so awesome that strangers will insist that their children and grandchildren all read it. With that exception, I've always disliked books that made up words and/or names that were difficult to pronounce. I give a pass to the occasional made up race of people or onomatopoeia. But for the most part, I think writers need to understand that making up words does not make you creative or interesting. You have to arrange words in a pleasing order to form a cogent story with interesting characters.

An unabridged English dictionary has close to a million words - does anyone really think that we need to add more? Seriously? With the exception of naming or describing new technologies, its usually just pretension.

[Boo]

Does A Clockwork Orange count in the category of blasphemy against the english language in terms of made up words?

Some copies of the book have a dictionary at the end if you ever have trouble with a word. You're going to have less trouble reading if you speak Russian, or memorized every Nadsat word.

http://soomka.com/nadsat.html

Anthony Burgess did a wonderful job in writing it, and an even better job in screwing with our minds by writing a gibberish language that requires some amount of intelligence. I love that man.


Back on topic, making up words when writing a book isn't always a bad thing. It's just if the word sounds underdeveloped or is presented badly. LotR did this well, although the books read like a manual IMO. A Clockwork Orange presented words well, but some felt underdeveloped. Only some. I think Harry Potter did poorly in both cases. Of course, I only read the first book, and stopped there.

[chiasaur11]

I think Joyce must stand as the epitomal example of authors exempt.

No.

I've tried to read some Finnegan's wake and...

No, just no.


Also, one of the few really useful recentish additions to the dictionary, in my opinion, is Zeerust. And that used to be the name of a place!

[Mx.Silver]

When I first saw the thread title I assumed bossmiley had made a typo. It seems I was mistaken. Seriously, when the author can't even be bothered to put the third letter 'a' in the title it doesn't really bode well for the language used in the rest of the book.

[kamikasei]

I'm assuming the title is supposed to resemble "Anthem", whether as a reference to the book or something else I can't say.

[WalkingTarget]

When I first saw the thread title I assumed bossmiley had made a typo. It seems I was mistaken. Seriously, when the author can't even be bothered to put the third letter 'a' in the title it doesn't really bode well for the language used in the rest of the book.

Seeing as the word/title is meant to bring to mind both "anthem" and "anathema" I think I can let that pass.

Edit - specifically it's "a mathic ritual by which one is expelled from the mathic world" (an anthem that makes one anathema).

[Tirian]

An unabridged English dictionary has close to a million words - does anyone really think that we need to add more? Seriously? With the exception of naming or describing new technologies, its usually just pretension.

In their defense, it is a technique for reinforcing that you are dealing with a foreign culture. Sure, "sword" and "scimitar" are nearly synonymous, but they fire off different images in your mind; one is being wielded by King Arthur and the other by Saladin, for instance. Well, the author doesn't want you to say "Oh yeah, I've seen that before" at all when he talks about the weapons used by the ballet assassins of Kakrafoom IV even though they are long blades with a handle on the end, so he calls them "jef'qadras".

On the other hand, it can work remarkably well. I would argue that two of the most powerful words in kiddie lit are "silflay hraka" from Watership Down, which Richard Adams would not have been able to write without his specialized rabbit language.

[hamishspence]

When its good, its good, when its bad, its terrible. Big question is: is correlation true.

If one picked, at random from two lists a list of fiction novels with a high proportion of "new words" and a list of fiction novels which don't have any, would probability that novel is trash actually be higher?

[Destichado]

Big question is: is correlation true.

Big answer is: heck no.

[YPU]

But making lists of stories that do something in a good way and books that do the same thing in a bad way never really turn out positive. There will always be a few good writers who use some skill (like making up words) correctly in their work, and then there will also always be hordes of not so good writers who try to do the same.

[Yulian]

Does A Clockwork Orange count in the category of blasphemy against the english language in terms of made up words?

Well my droogies, I can see a young malchik wanting to tolchock some old veck for some fresh vellocet or drencrom to peet. It's all dobby and I kopat the fact that the bratchny wasn't sammy with his moloko. So you klop 'im on 'is Gulliver an' off y'go, O my brothers. Off y'go. You pony?

Nadsat is full of awesome.

- Yulian

[BRC]

I believe in terms of making up words, it only counts if you are making up new words for things that already exist, for no reason other than "Because you can". It's okay to come up with a word to refer to the elite soliders of some society, so as to differentiate them from normal soliders.
It's not okay to call all soliders "Rap'Korinath" in order to spite your english teacher.


Also, what about getting rid of words rather than coming up with new ones? Personally, I think thats plusgood.

[Ascension]

Wait, A Canticle for Leibowitz doesn't make up many words. That's Latin, not some fictional language.

[Tengu_temp]

Latin isn't a fictional language?

[Ascension]

Not according to Rome.

[The_JJ]

I grok I grok the full grokiness of this grokful conversation.

[jamroar]

Wait, A Canticle for Leibowitz doesn't make up many words. That's Latin, not some fictional language.

Similar plot premise. (I think. Haven't read Anathem yet).

[SurlySeraph]

The excess of made-up words was why I didn't really like Dune. Having to flip to the glossary every two pages to figure out what the hell is going on kinda breaks immersion for me.

[Tirian]

One of the things that saved Dune for me is that the new words were often sensible reminders of what they meant, like crysknife, lasgun, and thumper. There were probably some off-the-wall ones, but they aren't sticking in my mind.

But I'm sympathetic to your point of view. I'm not going to try to read Huckleberry Finn again until someone translates it into English.

[kamikasei]

The excess of made-up words was why I didn't really like Dune. Having to flip to the glossary every two pages to figure out what the hell is going on kinda breaks immersion for me.

Were there really that many? My impression while reading was that the wide majority were either names for new things (Landsraad, CHOAM, etc.) or specific terms for things mostly drawn from real-world cultures/languages, which came off more as "I am describing a foreign culture" than "I am making stuff up for a laugh" (kanly, adab robe, etc.). If the first time you see a word you don't know you feel you have to look it up sure that'll mess with immersion, but I remember the book as being pretty good about telling you what a word meant when it was introduced.

[Ascension]

Similar plot premise. (I think. Haven't read Anathem yet).

Ah. A quick visit to a place with a summary of the plot suggests you are correct. I think. It's hard to tell with all the arbitrary nonsense words.

Yeah, stick with Canticle is my advice.

[BRC]

Were there really that many? My impression while reading was that the wide majority were either names for new things (Landsraad, CHOAM, etc.) or specific terms for things mostly drawn from real-world cultures/languages, which came off more as "I am describing a foreign culture" than "I am making stuff up for a laugh" (kanly, adab robe, etc.). If the first time you see a word you don't know you feel you have to look it up sure that'll mess with immersion, but I remember the book as being pretty good about telling you what a word meant when it was introduced.

The Honor Harrington series gave me some problems too, mostly because I started on a later book. It wasn't so much that weber made up abunch of words, as most of the words were names for new things (Sidewalls, MDM's, podlayers, legislaturists, ect), I just didn't know what they were, and I didn't find the glossary until after I had finished the book, so I was then able to say "Oh, so THAT is what all those words mean"