Sauron vs Voldemort

[EvilElitest]

I really don't need to point out that that said target HUMANS, do I?

And while Sauron does not have complete control over his followers, he has far more control than Voldie does. Sauron has never, to my knowledge, had Orcs stray completely from their task or "bail" on him, even after it seemed he died, but the same is certainly not true for Voldie.

Does the infighting at Cirith Ungul count? But your right, Sauron's minons may infight but they still try to do there job.
from,
EE

[multilis]

Sauron has never, to my knowledge, had Orcs stray completely from their task or "bail" on him,

"if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewheres on our wan with a few trusty lads... no big bosses" - Gorbag, TTT->The choices of master samwise.

ROTK, the Tower of Cirith Ungol -> Frodo escapes because certain orcs value a mirthil coat over the orders of Sauron, triggering a fight.

Later, RTOK The Land of Shadow, Frodo after seeing his orc/goblin trackers turn on each other explains to Sam "But that IS the spirit of Mordor, and it has spread to every corner of it. Orcs have always behaved like that...[but] hate us far more. If these two had seen us they would have dropped their quarrel..."


And of course we must consider how fair Saruman was helping the orcs return to the good side, they started to not mind day. (Disliking day is a sign of evil creatures according to Treebeard). Even orcs from Mordor were trying to learn about friendship with all races and join with Sarumans orcs on a mission to invite hobbits over for a friendship party. Unfortunately the first two hobbits and human they met were rude and starting hacking off orc arms and legs, then all nastiness broke loose as the orcs forcesfully tried to bring then to Saruman to show them about peace (orcs hadn't lost all their evil ways yet, Saruman could only work so fast). Some of this history has been distorted by the orc haters.

[EvilElitest]

"if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewheres on our wan with a few trusty lads... no big bosses" - Gorbag, TTT->The choices of master samwise.

But this is just dissenction, not out right tratiors, such that Voldemort faced, Snape, Malfoy, among others.

ROTK, the Tower of Cirith Ungol -> Frodo escapes because certain orcs value a mirthil coat over the orders of Sauron, triggering a fight.

Not all of them betray him, Shagrat stays loyal. And they infight, but don't direclty fight him. True thoug, their is a lot of infighting in this clan.

Later, RTOK The Land of Shadow, Frodo after seeing his orc/goblin trackers turn on each other explains to Sam "But that IS the spirit of Mordor, and it has spread to every corner of it. Orcs have always behaved like that...[but] hate us far more. If these two had seen us they would have dropped their quarrel..

."
The trackers couldn't find them, so they fought. That are slightly more compatent when they have an enemy to fight

And of course we must consider how fair Saruman was helping the orcs return to the good side, they started to not mind day.

What, are you talking about Uruk-hai? Sauron made them first.

(Disliking day is a sign of evil creatures according to Treebeard). Even orcs from Mordor were trying to learn about friendship with all races and join with Sarumans orcs on a mission to invite hobbits over for a friendship party. Unfortunately the first two hobbits and human they met were rude and starting hacking off orc arms and legs, then all nastiness broke loose as the orcs forcesfully tried to bring then to Saruman to show them about peace (orcs hadn't lost all their evil ways yet, Saruman could only work so fast). Some of this history has been distorted by the orc haters.

I really am having trouble understand you, are you refering to Saruman's doubous loyalty.
Saruman however has far more to gain from serving Sauron to Voldermort, unless Voldemort can offer him something to be worth the extremly high risk of death. On that subject, Dementors would most likely switch to Sauron, less risk, more guys to drain. If Sauron has to sacerfice five thousand orcs for a thousand dementors, seems like a fair trade
from,
EE

Edit
The Atlas of Middle-earth says that 11250 fought against at least 45000 orcs, Haradrim etc. on the fields of the Pelennor.

I don't think we are ever told how many orcs still were left in Mordor, because simply nobody could know for sure.

At the Morannon about 60,000 fought against an unknown, but vast number of enemies.

In the Lord of the Rings movies guide, Weapons and Warfare it says that the orc numbers at Pelonor fields is 300,000 with 500,000 at the black gate.
from,
EE

[multilis]

I really am having trouble understand you, are you refering to Saruman's doubous loyalty.

See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=493

[Ditto]

Orcs ignored orders during the war because their hate of goblins or Uruks or whoever else they didn't like working with. Death Eaters, however, never deliberately disobeyed orders while Voldemort was around. After the respective wars, Mordor was a shadow of itself until Sauron began to gather himself and started marshalling them once again. As soon as Voldemort recorporealized, all of his followers returned at once. Both groups retained much of their destructive potential (much more strongly in the case of Death Eaters), but could not effect a meaningful victory without their leadership. I don't know that the orcs could ever had done anything with themselves, whereas several Death Eaters maintained their subtle and sinister work, albeit on a much lower level, throughout the years of Voldemort's absence.

Snape was the ONLY traitor to Voldemort's team. Malfoy chose to not-get-killed in lieu of getting killed, and apparently did it for loooove. Voldemort had taken his wand early in the book, so he's working with a crappy wand as one of the only Death Eaters left, and Voldemort was taking on Slughorn, McGonagall, and Kingsley. At *that* point, I can understand him opting to save face/his son/wife. But he never disobeyed him.

45,000 at Pelennor? See, you cited a source that's much more in keeping with everyone else's figures. Again, anything based on the movie is not conclusive, so the guidebook to the movies isn't ironclad. I'll trust in another source readily.

Saruman can rule all of Mordor for all Voldemort cares. So long as he reports ultimately to him, he doesn't really care for carving up territory. The Dementors get *more* souls to eat by joining Sauron's side? Again, Voldemort is working with a few dozen wizards - or, the Dementors could eat several thousand orcs. Voldemort offers far more tasty treats.

How do you figure 5,000 orcs are going to do anything to 1,000 dementors? That most certainly is a fair trade, but Dementors aren't really afraid of orcs... they can only be repelled by Happy Magic™, and the Sauroners have that in short supply.

[Ossian]

Sorry to bring it up again, but at the Morannon it was 6500 to 7000 good guys Vs ten times or more than 10 times. So.

Goodies: 6.500
Baddies: 80.000

What the movies say,m be it HP or LOTR, should not be taken into consideration for this challenge. After all, just like Wolfgang Petersen did not write thje Iliad, Peter Jackson did not write the LOTR (and whoever directed the HP movies might have had JKR as a consultant, but still didn't write the books).

Besides, I've had a look at some of the supporting merchandise material for LOTR, from Fact Files to collectors' stuff and "guides to the movies" and most of them are compiled by guys who have hardly even read the books.

O.

[Ditto]

Don't you dare mention Troy. Just... don't. Ever. ::shudder::

[xanaphia]

How many Death Eaters does Voldemort have? 50?

Vs how many orcs?

[Rowanomicon]

How do you figure 5,000 orcs are going to do anything to 1,000 dementors? That most certainly is a fair trade, but Dementors aren't really afraid of orcs... they can only be repelled by Happy Magic™, and the Sauroners have that in short supply.

I believe that whoever said that meant that Sauron could offer dementors sacrificial orcs.
Since you seem to believe that one orc is as good as a million orcs against Death Eaters then you must agree that if Sauron sacrificed even all his orcs (which I doubt he'd need to) and got the dementors in return then that would tip the scales in his favour immensely, especially since Death Eaters aren't all that good at happy thoughts ([joke]that's why they need broomsticks to fly and can't just do it Peter pan style[/joke]).

Also, for the record, I'd say that Nazgul are much closer to being like Peeves and/or dementors than HP ghosts.

[Ditto]

Ah, sacrificing makes sense. Don't know I'd buy that line, but it's certainly not beyond Sauron to literally feed his enemies the cannon fodder. But then again, it's "I'll let you suck a bunch of orcs if you'll fight some wizards that might actually find a way to bother you" vs. "Hey, do you want to eat all of those guys? Knock yourselves out." The dementors aren't really gaining anything from Sauron out of that deal.

Peeves and Dementors are physical manifestations of concepts. Nazgul and ghosts are both formerly straight-up human, and now have gone as far in the direction of 'dead' as you can go without actually being in the ground. If you had to equate them to one or another, Nazguls are way more like ghosts.

[The_Snark]

Ah, sacrificing makes sense. Don't know I'd buy that line, but it's certainly not beyond Sauron to literally feed his enemies the cannon fodder. But then again, it's "I'll let you suck a bunch of orcs if you'll fight some wizards that might actually find a way to bother you" vs. "Hey, do you want to eat all of those guys? Knock yourselves out." The dementors aren't really gaining anything from Sauron out of that deal.

True... but why are we assuming Sauron asks the dementors to aid him nicely? He specializes in dominating all things, particularly those which are already corrupt. He was known as the Necromancer for a while. These things are not particularly loyal to Voldemort or Sauron either one when helping of their own free will, but I'd give Sauron and his ability to corrupt and influence the edge in at least turning the dementors against Voldemort, if not actually to his own side.

As for hit-and-run tactics... I don't remember if you ever gave an answer as to how the Death Eaters are finding these targets of opportunity to attack. They could simply Apparate about at random, true, but... firstly, this requires venturing into Sauron-held territory. Even if you only lose 1 wizard every few weeks, that's a win for Sauron.

Secondly, Sauron has exhibited the ability to blacken out the sun over very large areas for extended periods of time. It was called the Dawnless Day for a reason. It only broke after lasting a full day, and only then when the battle began to turn against him.

Wizards have exhibited no ability to see in the dark that I can recall; they use a light spell when they need to see. Unfortunately, this makes you an immediate target. Orcs, by contrast, see far better in the dark than they do by day.

For that matter, orcs vehemently dislike venturing out by day. During any day with good visibility, they're likely to be under cover, rather than camped in easily targetable camps.

[Executor]

The Nazgul are a physical manifestation of something. Fear. They are undead avatars of fear. Though they used to be human, they are now the living incarnation of terror. The scream of several working together I suspect is enough to stop a Death Eater in his tracks through the sheer bone-chilling fear of it. It was certainly enough to scare professional Gondorian soldiers, men who had seen and fought orcs their entire lives, ****less.

What do Dementors do? They suck happiness. Whoop-de-frickin'-do. Orcs aren't happy to begin with. Besides, soldiers fighting a war aren't usually happy to begin with. They can rip out your soul if they kiss you. Oh yay! The Nazgul can strike you down with a sword, fling poison-darts, have the Black Breath, and can petrify you with their aura of terror. From what the Harry Potter books say, it seems like the Dementors are more inclined to join the more evil side. In this case, that'd be Sauron.

[Ditto]

If orcs hide by day, wizards hide by night. Easy enough. And wizards are safer when camping, too!

For specific issues, wizards can bweem daylight. Summoning flame shields (yes, there's always Fiendfyre, but wizards make *normal* fire too, a la Dumbledore in HP6) is functional *and* pretty. I'm sure they could rig up some sort of darkvision spell, but human transfiguration isn't taught til 6th or 7th year so a little Lumos is just a cleaner way for everyday use. If Sauron blots out the sun, that's an issue for targetting to be sure, but the best kinds of spells against an army are AoE, right? You don't have to be too precise.

I don't recall ever putting too fine a point on finding the targets, let's see... I believe there's a 'Prying Eyes' analogue... I can't put my finger on it, but I want to say it was used notably in the 5th book. I believe Patronuses could serve the purpose of scouts (if this team weren't all evil). Flying around on a broomstick under an Invisibility Cloak or disillusionment charm would be good, too. Hominem Revelio might be adaptable into a narrow cone instead of a radius burst. And the orc army is generally easier to find than a few dozen wizards are due to the size of the force alone. I don't think it's one of the main issue here, really.

Corrupting is another tack, I suppose, but it ultimately comes down to who has the most souls to steal, and that's unquestionably the thousands-strong Sauron team. It's not about who's more evil among evils; when forced to choose the good guys or the evil guys, they'll go with the evil guys because they're a bit looser with their prisoners, nothing more.

EDIT: Dementors are the manifestations of fear. Nazgul are men. Nazgul are men with a supernatural ability. "Soldiers aren't happy"? Well, duh. You need to talk to some soldiers, friend... not enjoying foxholes is different from the sudden certainty that life is not worth living. You're also pretty flip with the 'rip out your soul thing'... when you get stabbed, you can get better.

[Executor]

Morgul-blades. Unless the Death Eaters can heal like Lord Elrond, or know where to find and how to use athelas, they're in big trouble. Poison-darts, in ROTK, it's said that if Faramir had been hit by one thrown by the Nazgul, he'd be beyond saving. The Black Breath. Sure, the Dementors can take our your soul, but they have to be close enough to kiss you to do that. You strike a Nazgul, you get the Black Breath, you come near him and he gives you the Black Breath.

And the Nazgul are no longer men. They once where, but now they're something else entirely. Wraiths, Wights, whatever, but definetely not men, though they are in the shape of the men they once where. And i'd describe Dementors are more of a incarnation of unhappiness, not the undiluted fear of the Nine. Not quite dead, not quite alive, not quite human.

[EvilElitest]

All right, responding to everything now

Man, these things are getting long again…

I blame you

If we want to keep going into the real-world parallels on this, that’s fine… I spent the better part of my college career studying spycraft, rebellions, and counterinsurgency. The single most important factor in guerrilla war is having outside aid. There is no successful example of a guerrilla army winning without some sort of external backing. (Situations like Castro and Cuba aren’t strong ones, because it was far more Batista’s collapse than Castro’s victory, and the fact that he advertised democracy. That’s why the situation was never reproduced, despite attempts all over South and Central America.) The need for outside aid stems from the fact not that the guerrillas are few, but that they are weak. They need the big guns and more people to wield the big guns. Your observations are correct that far. In this case, though, Voldemort does not need big guns - he is big guns.

And yet, he was still working within a pouplation that he knew and understood and could if he needed to blend into, something he can't do with voldemort

Guerrilla warfare aims to draw folks away from heavily fortified positions for the same reason – they are few and therefore too weak to engage in open conflict. Not the cast with Voldemort. It’s like saying a nuclear warhead is a weak opponent because there’s only one of them, even thought it would vaporize the entire army if gathered in one place.

Except when the war head in question comes out to play, it gets owned.

To Warty Goblin: Again, I’ve studied this rather a lot. Terrorists indiscriminately kill civilians. Guerrillas go out of their way not to. Neither really applies to Voldemort’s cohort in 7th book mode, because they’re building a fascist regime. They’re much closer to guerrillas than terrorists, but either way they’re not fighting an overt war. I don’t see this campaign lasting 5 years, though, so fatigue spanning that length of time shouldn’t be a concern. Deserting isn’t a viable option in this scenario, though defecting as admittedly a possibility. I’ve come up with some reasons why they wouldn’t defect, but that’s a fine point to consider. Definitely some good thoughts, on the whole

.
1. Desrting is very posible, just apperate onto the other side of Sauron's army and be confident that he Voldemort is to focused on sauron's men to be able to take you down
2. Were do they get their food? Orcs can eat the dead, and Sauron can povide his humans with food, but the Death eaters can't obtain it.

What part of “Launch a devastating and uncounterable magical barrage, hole up, rinse, repeat” is not a sound tactic?

It works well on paper, but people make mistakes, and the Death Eaters are really skilled at that.

Do you have some issue with the larger strategy? That’s a different question, but I’m quite certain that this tactic would do wonderfully against the rank and file. We’ve gone over some of the possibilities for the battles with the top-shelf Sauroners already, and we can rehash that if you’d like. The non-wizard folks on Voldemort’s team are pretty much screwed, as you’d expect melee combatants to be in a giant melee war.

With so many thousands at his disposal, Sauron's meelee dude can pretty much use the element of factors to destroy Voldemort's army. Also, if the giants are going to die anyways, won't they have more to gain by joining Sauron's side. THe mouth of Sauron has the power convincing people to do his will, and Sauron can dominate people, so shouldn't be to hard.

Dementors aren’t in danger of being driven off and ‘turned’, since no one on either side can conjure a Patronus.

Can Dementors be killed nomally. Also, they would have not effect on the wraiths and hte phantoms of the dead marshes. With Saron's magic, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that he can find a way to destroy them.
I

could see them defecting to Sauron’s team for some reasons, but on the other hand Sauron’s team has (apparently) millions of saps to feed on. If they switch sides, Sauron can promise them, what? A few dozen souls, the end? There are a *lot* of Dementors, and they’re hungry. They don’t care about who is more evil, it’s who will give them the most opportunity to eat misery and despair.

Sauron will offer them the lives of his own men, in return for killing the death eaters and causing a lot more pain and suffering. He is also more skilled in dark arts.

In a cage match like this, the answer is quite clearly Voldemort. Orc Swordsman #47 is pretty damn despairing after having seen Fiendfyre wipe the 23rd regiment, y’know? And #47 has 10,000 buddies just lying around

…
And the Death eaters, most of whom are serving Voldemort out of fear, and have seen about have their dudes taken down by random arrow shots, the nazgul, or mistakes, have a bad food supply, and have killed thousands of orcs with thousands more to go are pretty depressed to. perticually if they know that

And still, not a void. What would that stand on? I guess it’d be that sci-fi plot convention where people who can walk through walls never fall through floors.

What?

1) First they terrorized, then they ruled it. They were in nigh-total control of the government, had posses rounding up undesirables, flawless surveillance on any who dared speak the Dark Lord’s name… it was a pretty solid set-up.

And failed at the first sign of rebbellion. I do admit Voldemort did do a pretty smooth takeover, though the ministry was rather incompatent, but he failed to hold onto it.

2) They don’t think the orcs will catch them, but they’re pretty sure that they don’t want it to happen lest they be pulped. That’s not at all the same as “Oh, look, children I can harass.” Overconfidence implies you’re surprised when you get the snot kicked out of you.

And most of them view orcs are lesser unmagical crude beasts, which they pretty much are, and after a few victories, they will make mistakes

3) We’ve debated back and forth whether they can hurt each other, how will they catch each other, and on and on. If they need to battle and can do so, he can handle it. ::shrug:: Not really a huge point, IMO. (This is leaning OACA in most scenarios suggested, though I liked the “Animated weapon force, roll out!” Sauron’s definitely stabbable, no magic attack needed.)

Enchanted and animated are to differenty things

7) Um, ‘Repello Muggletum’? Anyone who approaches remembers somewhere else they’d rather be. Unplottability means you can’t spread the secret of where something is found, even if you found it.

Two methods. 1. Use Sauron's undead minons, barrow wrights, Nazgul, lesser wraiths (ones created by a morgal blade), and the phantoms of the dead marches
2. Send the orcs in, with the nazgul leading from the rear. They will remember, but keep going because of the fear behind them.

Why does everyone insist that AK is the only way to kill people? Have y’all not been reading about Fiendfyre, for just one example?

That takes a little while to work. And considering Sauron and the Balrog have fire powers, might be a bit risky.

Wizards could continue hiding with great success… at worst, the might have to pull out of living in Muggle communities, but they don’t need to fight that war.

Because the Muggles are
1. not aware of the wizards
2. The same race
3. and in a society that they can go unnoticed
It also took years for this systom to be established

Voldemort has also shown it’s perfectly possible to quietly take control of the government, so that’s an option too.

A goverment and ultimate god driven dictatorship are slightly different. The ministery was weak, Sauron is not.

If you took one wizard and pitted him against a modern army, I suppose he’d be in more trouble than fighting orcs, but it’s not really relevant because it’d never get to that point. Right now, wizards are in ‘Don’t advertise your presence’ mode. If they switch to full ‘Hole up and live our own wizarding world,’ then that’s all there is to it. In this case, they don’t need to fight a war at all.

use the eye and the nazgul to track them down, all the while breeding new orcs

8) Apologies, summon has the wrong connotation. I meant it as in a court summons – “You are required to report!” It works both ways, so Voldemort can pop in on a Death Eater too. This isn’t really a major point, so consider it closed.

If a death eater switches sides, he will be loctated near Sauron himself, so when Voldemort shows up, bam.

10) Voldemort has tons of experience living in the shadows, and no experience leading an army because he doesn’t have or need an army. Is that such a profound statement? You only need sophisticated military cunning to defeat Sauron’s army when you’re fighting with the same kind of army, like the good guys had in LOTR.

Sauron was hiding in the shadows in a society that was not ruled by trrany or had the will to hunt him down. They are also entirly bent to Sauron, Voldemort was able to hide in Albana because no one really expected him to be there.

Nazgul magic: The sundering thing works if he knows where the target is, and if the thing itself isn’t actively trying to prevent that attack. Protego and an Invisibility cloak are a great start. Also, ‘turn and vanish’ might literally be invisinating instead of poofing away

Nazgul fear works just as well, and they track magic and use smell.
In any event, it’s not at the top if

Wizards can hide from birds. Repello Avis! And they don’t need to hold territory; the Rope Trick tent will do just fine night after night, especially if you set it up dozens of miles away.

Wait, so the death eaters are going to be shooting every single bird they see? Wow, that is a little ridicually.
Birds and rats i think could still find the camp, or at least get the Nazgul to come.

Orcs are most definitely limited. S’a big number, but one we’ve People keep saying orcs breed quickly, which is great, but it needs to be defined to matter.

You kill ten thousand orcs, guess what, i already have another 5,000

I don’t know how long y’all think this war is going to last, but we’re not talking years.

Hit and run wars always take a long time.

Where were they overconfident over fully-grown wizards? Death Eaters talk a big game, but they’re genuinely afraid of the Order.

When they took over Hogwarts, they only left two freaking guys to guard it, dispite it being one of the good guys best strongholds and full of hostages.

Peeves is here. Show me how HP wizards defeat Dementors, and we can talk about the non-magic that Sauron’s team can drive them off with. Where’s your happy thoughts, team? :small smile:

Do you know how easy it would have been if you linked the quote the first time i asked?

I’m telling you, Gandalf just had a +1 flashlight.

Makes sense, i have one at home.

Details – Who are these spellcasters, are they around and on Sauron’s team during LOTR, and what can they do? The few people that have been mentioned previously are from antiquity and “They are described as powerful spellcasters”, which doesn’t count for much until we know what that means. So far, power spellcasting seems to be focused on imbuing locations with abjurations and enchanting weapons. Also, when naming the armies and factions, might I ask that you attend to proper nouns more precisely? I sometimes have trouble telling when you’re talking about nurm men and numenorians and the like.

Sadly the book gives very little details
The Black Numenorians are known to have powerful socery, but it is fairly vauge, they are imortail, can bend people's will, cause fear and other fun stuff
the Mouth of Sauron can control minds to a limited extent, while the WK is said to be a powerful caster. They really don't go into detail sadly, but they do imply they can do some pretty nasty stuff, like plauge and fire what not, enchanting stuff. And Numenorians is a pain to spell but sorry.

See, people think that Malfoy is disloyal because he chose to save his son over getting the snot beaten out of him by dozens of wizards. He’s still evil! What’s the ironclad motivation for switching sides? Voldemort can find them, and they’ll just have to go up against wizards like themselves. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but some folks indicate that just because some flunkies and Dementors could switch sides, they already have.

If i was Sauron, i'd use the Eye or the Mouth of Sauron to approch him and Offer him safety from Voldemort, immortailty, powerful dark magic, and his own private country in exchange for betraying a ruler to contestly tortures him
For the dementors, i'd build a prison, that they would run, except i allowed them to do whatever they want to the prisoners, and give them my enemies and orcs in return they get to kill Death Eaters. Seems like a good deal, and less chance of death

Sauron’s eye is a huge telescope. That’s all. It can see stuff from very far away, but it has to know where to look. It’s not useful for finding things in a scrying sense, otherwise he could have detected any of the Fellowship on their long journeys to defeat him.

His eye is a telescope that can see through any magical blocking, and seems to be attracted to magic.

Saruman was always working on his own agenda

But was in reality corrupted by Sauron, and has much more to gain by working for him

the Balrog in Moria was pretty much just hanging out

I think he was directly working for Sauron, considering how the northern's orcs action worked perfectly with Sauron's plans. He also has much to gain by working with Sauron.

but he’s dead,

So is Voldemort, that is a moot point

There aren’t any dragons in play, since they aren’t talked about in the trilogy

read the hobbit, they live in the witherned Hearth.

Sauron can *block* divine magic. He is not *immune* to it. Those are very different things. (There. Counterpoint.)

Lets see, in what we know of him he has
Shrugged off the spells of Luthrin and Beorn, two of the most powerful mortals ever.
Faced off against the hound god himself, the most powerful hound in existence, that can only be slain by the greatest wolf. even though he lost (he wasn't a wolf) he was able to fight him for three days and nights before being forced to flee. Hey that reminds him, he has the power to shape shift into almost any beast, and if we count his simerallion foces, he has were wolves and vampires on his side. he has lived through the war of the wraith pretty much unarmed, were all the elves and gods in the world shoot magic at him and his boss, and he got out in time. He has tricked the gods out of killing him, defeated entire elven nation in the war of Sauron and elves, and blocked the magical bolts from the king of the gods himself. So yeah, what can Voldemort do?

We know Sauron can be harmed with mundane means, so he does not have any sort of physical invulnerability.

two things
1. A pair of enchanted weapons that were greated by one of the greatest smiths in the history of the world who was blessed by the god of smiths hardly counts as mudaine
2. That could only work after his most powerful form was destroyed by the King of the world himself
3. They had to cut off the ring
4. It was damn hard.

He's very much like Voldemort in this way. Voldemort can totally be killed (-ish) by an AK or stunned or cut, but he's got ways to counter those issues. Sauron isn't exactly a hard target to find.

But Sauron is a lot more dangerous than Voldemort. Oh and two questions
1. When Voldemort dies, does it take him ten years to come back, or does he come back per normal?
2. If harry is the last soul thingy, is he here as well?

Orcs do not spring out of the ground overnight, just-add-water. In a full war, their "incredible" (still undefined!) reproductive rate would be an advantage to be contended with, but we're not talking about that sort of timeframe

Are you kidding me? Your hit and run tatics would take ages. Orcs seems to come about in a very small amount of time, the Urak-hai only in months, so yeah.

Hit and run isn't "Shoot one shot and escape", it's "Hit and run to the other side of the army and hit again, eat a sandwich, hit the next army, run back to the first army, drink tea." You're not evacuating, you're repositioning.

Hightly risky, exchusting, hungry, and dangerous work. One mistake and its done. And considering the fact taht they death eaters lost to harry and a small group of kids on multiple occasions, yeah, they makes a lot of mistakes.

Y'all keep saying Voldemort would lose followers and couldn't hold together a meaningful cohort to lead. He did, quite successfully, for years. Sure, they don't *love* him as a boss, but they knew what they were signing up for. Crucio is a risk on the road to ultimate power. ::shrug

::
There was no body else who could offter them anything more evil. Well now they have options, and Sauron is less likely to kill them on a whim.

That's the short version, but it doesn't say that it needs fuel. Magic fire doesn't need fuel, I just thought that might help it grow even further. These fire creatures move more quickly than a mass of orcs. Further, it's not "Oh, poo, there's a flame beast moving in from the east. Best turn around." It's, "Holy flaming oliphaunt, Batman! I'm in an inferno! I'm ash! There goes that regiment, also ashed!" It's formidable.

Both sauron and the Balrog, Dragons, and quite possible some of Sauron's casters have affinity for fire. So yeah, i think that won't work as well as you'd hope

Sauron cannot micromanage his troops. He is not in direct control of each orc. Otherwise, his soldiers would never, ever argue or fight, especially to the point of civil wars such as the one which allowed Merry and Pippin to escape. He apparently has a direct upload to the Olags, but that's still delivering instructions telepathically rather than being an avatar.

he can't give them orders via the eye, he just has so many troops it is hard for him to keep track, but he, or through the Nazgul can do so.

As you say, Wizards don't need to win a war against Muggles to come out on top. How does that prove anything against Sauron? Unrelated examples.

Wizards can blend in with the Muggles, Voldemort can't do taht with Sauron

Wizards have those in spades. If you like, they can push the attack in a big rush and only apparate to a relatively close 'repositioning' position instead of what you call so negatively a 'retreat'... whatever

But they lack numbers, and surrplies


Alright, i get back to rest tommorow
from,
EE

[The_Snark]

EDIT: Dementors are the manifestations of fear. Nazgul are men. Nazgul are men with a supernatural ability. "Soldiers aren't happy"? Well, duh. You need to talk to some soldiers, friend... not enjoying foxholes is different from the sudden certainty that life is not worth living. You're also pretty flip with the 'rip out your soul thing'... when you get stabbed, you can get better.

I'm sort of in the middle on this one. Dementors are manifestations of depression and misery, not fear, exactly. Nazgul are not living manifestations of terror per se, but they do strike bone-chilling terror into the hearts of those who face them, and they can cause sickness and apathy leading, ultimately, to death. They don't even need to be present the rest of the way through it. Although they're actually more supernatural in origin, dementors are less imposing by far.

Soldiers can definitely be happy fighting a war. Orcs have a harder time of it; their inherent viciousness has to battle against their inherent laziness and cowardice. Orcs have a hard time being happy in any case, because they have to live with other orcs.

When you get stabbed, you can get better... but with less time and effort than a dementor has to take to suck someone's soul out, a simple orc can slit your throat. The dementor's kiss is intimidating, yes, but pretty useless on an actual battlefield.

Corrupting is another tack, I suppose, but it ultimately comes down to who has the most souls to steal, and that's unquestionably the thousands-strong Sauron team. It's not about who's more evil among evils; when forced to choose the good guys or the evil guys, they'll go with the evil guys because they're a bit looser with their prisoners, nothing more.

Not necessarily. It's possible he could compel them to serve him. That is his primary power, after all. It's what the Ring does*, after all. And Sauron was called the Necromancer for a while, and can definitely bind spirits to his service (the Watchers at Cirith Ungol, the unseen presences at Minas Morgul, and the Witch-king's barrow-wights).

*By which I mean that it compels the bearers of other rings of power, or at least subverts them. Not that it bends anyone who wears the Ring to Sauron's will. Definitely don't want to start that one again.

Edit- Auuughhh, length... EE, please don't make them that long... A few points at a time, maybe?

[EvilElitest]

Don't you dare mention Troy. Just... don't. Ever. ::shudder::

Awful movie, Olando Bloom should not be allowed to play lead roles
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

One point about the dementor's kiss- its worth about jack in this case. It doesn't kill you. Sure it removes (I'm presuming here, based on what happens to Voldermort with his split and weakened) your ability to empathize and be happy and looove and all that. Which does what to orcs and evil men?

Another thing, Sauron is far more strategically astute than Voldermort. If nothing else he reals Voldermort into a trap where Voldermort and co. cannot escape, and the can destroy them in detail. Say, "reveal" how some spell worked at Mt. Doom would destroy him, but it needs a very powerful wizard with an excellent bloodline to cast. Assemble Nazgul in high flight pattern over Mt. Doom, wait for Voldermort to come in and work his magic. We've already established that pretty much no non-Sauron magic works at Mt. Doom so once on site, Voldermort won't be able to escape. "Allow" him to slip though the defenses, similar to Gollum was "allowed" to escape. As soon as Voldermort reaches the epi-center of Mt. Doom, have the Nazgul drop by for a visit. Without escape Voldermort will be overwhelmed- buried under the weight of dead orcs if need be, and that's that.

This is just the sort of thing that Voldermort would fall to- prays on his ego and sense of self-importance, and is just the sort of strike that the Death Eaters are supposed to be good at. It's also just the sort of thing that Sauron would think of, afterall, its pretty much how he destroyed Numeneor.

[Rowanomicon]

If orcs hide by day, wizards hide by night. Easy enough. And wizards are safer when camping, too!

Except it's always night and orcs, Nazgul, other things and The Eye are hunting for you.

Also I would say that the dementors would definitely join Sauron, they get to eat the Death Eaters, plus Sauron's sacrifices, plus whoever Sauron goes after next. That is to say nothing of other reasons to join Sauron.
Also I think it's fair to say that at least one Death Eater would join Sauron. This give Sauron access to a lot and really puts the hurt on Voldemort in terms of increasing Sauron's defences.
Like someoen else pointed out Voldemort is free to apparate at Sauron's side there (if that's even possible) he'll be toast.

Oh and someone else pointed out that fire is one of Sauron's things, although it is unclear as to exactly what control he might have over it. I think he could control Fiendfyre all things (weather control) considered.

P. S. Also if you really think you get better after getting tabbed let someone run you through with a sword then see about getting better to fight another day.

[The_Snark]

One point about the dementor's kiss- its worth about jack in this case. It doesn't kill you. Sure it removes (I'm presuming here, based on what happens to Voldermort with his split and weakened) your ability to empathize and be happy and looove and all that. Which does what to orcs and evil men?

The actual kiss left you in a comatose, irreversible state, if I recall correctly. If actually applied, it might as well be lethal. The difficulty is in using it.

Also I would say that the dementors would definitely join Sauron, they get to eat the Death Eaters, plus Sauron's sacrifices, plus whoever Sauron goes after next. That is to say nothing of other reasons to join Sauron.

Well, possibly. Sucking the happiness and/or soul out of an orc might be less sustenance for a dementor than a human, so that's something in Sauron's favor.

Also I think it's fair to say that at least one Death Eater would join Sauron. This give Sauron access to a lot and really puts the hurt on Voldemort in terms of increasing Sauron's defences.

I don't know about one Death Eater increasing Sauron's defenses by a lot. Most wards in Harry Potter are either small-scale, or take a lot of time and power to set up.

However, corrupting Death Eaters is a definite tactic. How many of Voldemort's followers have actually attained any sort of immortality? None. He's in fact rather notorious for horribly punishing those who anger him. Sauron, on the other hand, has at least nine immortal servants; it is something he could grant if he regained enough of his strength. He also hasn't shown any Darth Vader minion-killing tendencies (well... not with anyone valuable, anyway).

Sauron also has better dental.

Oh and someone else pointed out that fire is one of Sauron's things, although it is unclear as to exactly what control he might have over it. I think he could control Fiendfyre all things (weather control) considered.

P. S. Also if you really think you get better after getting tabbed let someone run you through with a sword then see about getting better to fight another day.

I... don't recall Sauron ever being able to control fire. He forged the Ring in the Crack of Doom, and is pretty heavily associated with Mount Doom in general, but not fire... It was said that he could command the storms in the Mountains of Ash and the Mountains of Shadow, on the borders, though, so weather control he definitely has.

And Ditto does have a point about getting better; healing is reasonably easy with HP magic, as long as you're not actually dead. Won't work fast enough in an actual battle, but as long as you can retreat most things can be healed. Just not death. Or the Black Breath. That last would really carve holes through the ranks of the Death Eaters.

[turkishproverb]

Sauron also has better dental.

I'm sigging this.

[Darkantra]

A big disadvantage that the Death Eaters would have is that they can only use reaction-based magic. There are a very, very few number of times in HP when a wizard casts a defensive spell that lasts more than a couple of minutes. Almost all of their combat spells have short but devastating effects and nearly none has prolonged use. Their defensive abilities are next to nill unless they can see the threat coming.

Seriously, if anyone was going to have specific items or spells that could protect them from a certain spell or situation it would be a Death Eater, yet they only protect themselves when they are able to react to danger and repeatedly get their asses handed to them by everyone that doesn't immediately announce themselves. A Death Eater is a formidable foe, but only if he doesn't notice you sneaking up behind him with a pool cue.

Sure they are nigh invulnerable against a single orc, but a whole army of them, that are shooting thousands of arrows at thm while charging with tens if thousands at the same time is way beyond the capabilities of even all of the Death Eaters put together.

Let's say that a group of Death Eaters have been attacking Sauron's supply lines for several weeks. Orcs (not to mention uruk-hai, ring-wraiths and the eye itself) are clever enough to lay a trap and could easily guage the distance that the Death Eaters commonly attack from (and in a prolonged campaign their leaders would at least be smart enough to begin noticing the effects and limitations of their spells), and set skirmish archers to hide and shadow the lines from a distance further than the Death Eaters range.

Since DEs are notoriously arrogant, the first time the orcs did this odds are that they wouldn't even think of looking for ambush units, just the regular sentries. Since the ambush orcs probably wouldn't attack until the Death Eaters were busy attacking the lines they would be able to surprise them.

Surprised HP wizard = Screwed HP wizard


Wizards lose a few of their own to crude but remarkably effective arrows, and some probably turn to Sauron's side while the rest become paranoid and craven. Anyone that stays and fights quickly finds themselves mobbed by orcs and with no easily controllable wide-range spells they quickly get taken down.

These wizards are for the most part concerned with immediate power and prestige. Facing an enemy that continually adapts to their attacks and does not noticibly diminish in size will constantly make them question the war. Voldemort would probably kill any that questioned his orders in a fit of infantile rage and diminish his forces and their loyalty even more.

Voldemort and his Death Eaters did take over the Ministry and had a pretty good run of keeping Britain's wizards under control, but most of it was based off of fear and the thought that Voldemort would personally kill them if they stepped out of line. Orcs can be made to fear men but they have feared and veneratedthe Eye for millenia and have already seen considerable gains from following Sauron. As soon as Voldemorts plans start going to the ****ter anyone who is not pathologically loyal to him will have second thoughts. If the Eye's plans go to ****, he makes the orcs, goblins and uruk-hai breed more and sends them in yet again to suicidily seek the destruction of his enemies.

Orcs, goblins and uruk-hai love battle. Death Eaters do not.

[WalkingTarget]

I... don't recall Sauron ever being able to control fire. He forged the Ring in the Crack of Doom, and is pretty heavily associated with Mount Doom in general, but not fire... It was said that he could command the storms in the Mountains of Ash and the Mountains of Shadow, on the borders, though, so weather control he definitely has.

And Ditto does have a point about getting better; healing is reasonably easy with HP magic, as long as you're not actually dead. Won't work fast enough in an actual battle, but as long as you can retreat most things can be healed. Just not death. Or the Black Breath. That last would really carve holes through the ranks of the Death Eaters.

Sauron was originally a servant of Aulë the Smith of the Valar before he jumped ship over to Melkor, to whom Aulë was described as being closest in thought and power (which I take to mean their areas of expertise were similar, not their absolute strengths). Smiths = masters of fire is a standard trope in myths (Mount Doom being, essentially, just his forge).

The Witch-King did something involving magical fire to his sword at one point, so he (at least, maybe more of the Nazgul) shows some abilities to control it.

Balrogs are, literally, shadow and flame, but they don't come into play here as after Gandalf defeated Durin's Bane there probably aren't any left. (Tolkien changed his mind about them over several drafts, the latest version that I'm aware of had less than 10 of them ever. Earlier drafts had them as more numerous, but less invincible).

Yes, there were dragons into the 3rd age, but they're all dead. Smaug was the last we have any mention of. The only other reference I've been able to find is that Dain I was killed by a "cold drake" which is a phrase that doesn't appear anywhere else that I can find. Of course, that was before the kingdom at Erebor (that is, the Lonely Mountain) was established, so it's still irrelevant here. However, if there were any left, and assuming that they came to an agreement to help Sauron, it'd be bad news for the Potterverse. HP dragons (from what I've seen so far) are just large, fairly dangerous animals. Tolkien dragons are vastly intelligent, formidable in battle, and are some of the few outright "casters" available in Tolkien (Glaurung paralyzed Túrin with a gaze and caused Nienor's amnesia).

As for healing, yes, the HP magic is an advantage. Keep in mind that orcs were shown to use effective field medicine (on Merry, specifically), so they're not totally worthless. It wasn't pleasant or pretty, but it got him going again.

[SmartAlec]

I... don't recall Sauron ever being able to control fire.

He burned Elendil alive with a touch. The reason Sauron's ring-hand is called the Black Hand is because it burns.

[Ossian]

Yep. He was "consumed" by the fire of his hands, as well as Gil Galad and his keen mastercraft long spear of frost of icy explosion of the foot of chuck norris...

Plus, don't forget the Emblem (the eye, rimmed with the red of fire/blood) and the fact that he could controll a volcano at will (or, rather, that the Volcano gave emotional feedback depending on how pissed Sauron was)

O.

PS Take a look at thistale, found browsing casusally (haven't read it all yet)

[dehro]

somehow I doubt even a Dementor would try snogging Saruman Sauron...
edit: Sauron, not Saruman, of course..

again, Sauruman Sauron is not technically alive and therefore can't die... and this sort of cancels out all of the more fearsome magic Voldemort could try to use on him.

I am really surprised that this topic hasn't died out yet..

[Ditto]

Morgul blades, poison darts, black breath... these assume you get anywhere near the enemy. That isn't happening, remember? The Nazgul are men with their lives incredibly extended, as I've quoted repeatedly. They've been corrupted in all manner of nasty ways, but no matter how many templates you stack on they're still men. Dementors are not unhappiness, they're happy-less-ness. There's a difference. The Dementor's Kiss works against someone who isn't guarding against it pretty quickly (Sirius was taken in seconds, not minutes), and leave the victim a soulless husk. I'm okay with the orcs being alive, but being vegetables.

EE - You're going to pwn a nuclear warhead with swords and auras of fear? Good luck with that.

Death Eaters can get food from whatever Sauron can get it from. Every time orcs have to eat orcs, they're eating half of their army. That isn't a viable solution for very long... sure they *can* eat it, but that's not their food staple. We've left the fooding argument long ago, though.

There's no indication Dementors can be killed. I don't care what you say the source of Sauron' power is, it sure as hell isn't happiness. That's the way to beat them, the end.

Voldemort failed at the first sign of rebellion? You mean the Battle of Hogwarts, where every good-aligned witch and wizard in all of Britain turned up for no apparent reason at the same time? Yeah, that's just a little sign of rebellion. Don't pay any attention to the stuff that went on throughout the entire 7th book.

Wizards are despairing after watching their kind killed off by many arrows? One wizard getting hit 'eventually' is not the same as losing entire task forces. Sauron's team has a lot more to despair about. Sauron can offer tons of orcs, but he wants something in return. Voldemort doesn't. "Kill them, and you can have all the orcs you want" vs. "Kill all the orcs you want." Sauron doesn't have a better deal.

Fiendfyre takes a while to work? Even if it was a regular fire, being consumed in a long plume of it will kill you pretty quickly. (Whoever thought it takes hours to burn to death has never touched flame...) If you read the entry on Fiendfyre, it says it can turn various mundane objects to ash instantly upon contact. That hot enough for you?

Wizards can hide with impunity for the listed reasons completely independent of their history with Muggles. They could live with Martians and the same precautions would protect them. And since your counterpoint is "But the orcs could just ignore the magic if the Nazgul ask them to", I'm feeling quite okay with ignoring it.

You can't track something by scent if it's never been anywhere near you, and it's also difficult when you don't have source material to callibrate from. In any event, the wizards can just eradicate their scent! Yes, wizards can hide from all manner of woodland creatures - not by literally hiding from them, but by casting 'Antipathy', basically. Nazgul track magic? Cite your source. Sauron's eye tracks magic? He was able to look up Gandalf and the Ring without any trouble?

Voldemort can come back as soon as he figures out the right incantation and gathers the right material components. It took him about 14 years to get himself back together. How'd that work out for Sauron?

Wizards lost to other wizards, you're right! Oh, and they were younger than the Death Eaters? They were still wizards!

I agree that Voldemort is in trouble if he can't escape, or if he gets to Mount Doom. But you can't block apparition without the anti-apparition jinx, or another fixed locus effect like around Hogwarts or Mount Doom. But it's a neutral battlefield, so there's no Mount Doom. If Voldemort were just another force fighting in Middle Earth, that's a pretty good plan.

It's always night? You said Sauron blocked out the sun for a day.

Defection has never come up in a vs. thread before, so I'm still not sure how do respond to that point. Again, if they were all hanging out in the Third Age, a Death Eater would most definitely switch sides at some point. That sort of thing doesn't seem to apply in these threads... it's asking which team is more powerful on its own merits. And yes, stabbing is serious business, but you *can* get better after being stabbed when it's not a reaving gut strike, y'know. You can't get your soul back when it's eaten, ever.

Sauron does not have better dental.

EDIT: Continuing on...
How long do you need your combat spells to last? Killing the enemy ends their usefulness. Wizards are perfectly effective at guarding areas - the Caterwauling Charm is a prime example. If they find an army charging them, hollering and shooting arrows, they leave. I don't know what this business about supply lines is, but the attack pattern is still "Poof, bam, poof". What sort of examples are you thinking of where defensive abilities were inadequate in the short term or without specific warning? Everyone seems to be pretty good at Protego or hex deflection.

"Smiths = masters of fire in general myth tropes" - Not good enough by far. Prove he's able to master fire in a useful way. A burning touch is nifty, but not mastery of anything. Sauron has all sorts of neat-o tricks going on at Mount Doom and the black tower, but those are his headquarters and don't necessarily represent aspects of his personal power.

So yeah, what can Voldemort do

::facepalm::

[warty goblin]

Well, as far as Sauron controlling fire wise, he does it all the time. Here's some examples:

1) He forged the Ring. In a volcano. With lava- which I presume to be much hotter than Fiendfyre because Fiendfyre reduces things to ash on contact, lava ignites stuff from a distance. Fiendfyre for instance is not hot enough to kill people by proximity, or ignite wood, or that whole swooping down through flames on broomsticks wouldn't work so well. And didn't Sauron make his home in Mt. Doom for a while? Living in a giant unstable volcano would at least to me imply mastery and immunity to fire.

2) The battle of Pelennor Fields is full of references to orcs scrambling around in trenches filled with fire and so forth.

3) He's so hot, that his touch kills. It kills immortal elf lords of truly massive power. That implies some mastery of fire and heat to at least to me.

4) It might by implied by the books that Sauron has some control over Mt. Doom- when he's pissed, it blows up, when he's destroyed it really blows up etc.

And where do we get that dementor-kissed people are vegetables? As far as I can tell, there's no evidence for this in any of the books, only that the kiss is "worse then death." Voldermort by the end of the books is out pretty much his entire soul, and is distinctly non-vegetative, or even (except his lack of morals) impaired much by it.

The Black Breath also seems to be more than a short range thing- it effects people whom the Nazgul merely fly over. The shriek of the Nazgul also is capable of paralyzing the extremely hardy Gondorian and Rohirrim soldiers. The Lord of the Nazgul's presense is enough to route the entirety of Theoden's household guard, who were sworn to protect their king.

[SmartAlec]

Nazgul track magic? Cite your source. Sauron's eye tracks magic? He was able to look up Gandalf and the Ring without any trouble?

Well, it's possible, though I suppose there's room for interpretation.

While attempting to pass through Caradhras Pass, the Fellowship struggle to make a fire, recognising that either they make a fire and get some heat now, or some of them start to die from cold. After none of the others are able to get any of their wet wood lit, Gandalf takes a hand, igniting a campfire by magic. He was reluctant to do this, because it might give away the Fellowship's position, and after doing so, he ominously complains:

"If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them," he said. "I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin."

That's quite a distance. The mouths of the Anduin are over 700 miles away as the crow flies. Mount Doom is closer.

It's not quite sure what he means, though, as if it really was that easy to trace a wizard, Gandalf'd never be able to do any magic anywhere for fear of being tracked. One interpretation is that he is referring to signs that all could read if they knew how. This leaves some confusion over whether it's Gandalf's magic that's particularly obvious, or whether there are creatures out there like the Nazgul and co. who are very good at reading signs like this.

It's unsure whether this would even apply to Potterverse wandlore, but clearly there are some ways of tracking wizards or their magic; it's not undetectable. Two extremely obvious ways mentioned in the books are the Trace, that detects magic cast by underage wizards, and the Marauder's Map, which was created by four teenage wizards and is capable of telling you the real-time location of anyone in Hogwarts, anywhere - and you don't even need to be inside Hogwarts to use it.

(one wonders why, if a word like Voldemort can be jinxed to give away the position of those who speak it, then why words like, oh, I dunno - Crucio, Imperio and Avada Kedavra can't...)

[EvilElitest]

I... don't recall Sauron ever being able to control fire. He forged the Ring in the Crack of Doom, and is pretty heavily associated with Mount Doom in general, but not fire... It was said that he could command the storms in the Mountains of Ash and the Mountains of Shadow, on the borders, though, so weather control he definitely has.

And Ditto does have a point about getting better; healing is reasonably easy with HP magic, as long as you're not actually dead. Won't work fast enough in an actual battle, but as long as you can retreat most things can be healed. Just not death. Or the Black Breath. That last would really carve holes through the ranks of the Death Eaters.

1. Re-read the simeralion, they say that Sauron was orginally a forging smith Marar before he joined Morgoth,
2. He has an affinity with Mount doom
3. Aragon states in book one of Fellowship of the Ring that while the Nazgul hate fire, Sauron can control it
from,
EE