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Thread: V's Gender Debate IV [Official]
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2009-06-05, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender
Alternate for maximum confusion!
K and V make a great couple because he's good with the kids while she has magical powers but he can kill dragons while she cooks well so he can cook her a dinner after she kills dragons with the muffin-shaped muffin that hits the dragon's vulnerable area that he baked. But sometimes I think she should find someone else since he's not really good enough for him but the same could be said when she kissed Belkar so you might think that he cheated on him but she would probably get over it once she casts charm person on him and hypnotizes her to like him again.Last edited by PId6; 2009-06-05 at 08:31 PM.
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2009-06-05, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
I tend to say "he" because I see V as a male. I don't think any pronoun, invented or not, is wrong with him.
In French, what I've translated so far uses what seems to be the character's opinion (masculine for Roy for instance). The tricky part is that adjectives are also masculine or feminine, so if V says, for instance "I am tired", I have to find a way to rephrase it because otherwise "tired" would be either male or female.
"He" isn't really the word used when the gender isn't known, though. It's used when there is at least one male. Otherwise it depends. Ants, mice, spiders if the gender isn't know (or if they're gender-neutral, for ants) are referred to as female. Cats and dogs as males. Whales as females, dolphins as male. It's linked to the fact that there is no "it" in French, so every animal name has a "gender" even if it's used for the whole species.
"Elf", however, has both a male and a female form ("un elfe" or "une elfe"), so although they're spelled the same, articles and adjectives would still be different, and using the male form would mean V is a male (if V himself was to use it).
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2009-06-05, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Mass.
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
Oh...oops, I guess I got that wrong then. There's a reason why French is my worst subject in school, I guess. I guess it just made since in my mind; with male being the dominant gender when multiple people are involved it would be the same for ambiguity too. Thanks for the help, Lissou.
EDIT: I've just realized why the comic isn't translated: the whole gender/pronoun thing. It would a) give away V's gender and b) ruin all of the jokes about V not having a gender, since we already know it.Last edited by [TS] Shadow; 2009-06-05 at 09:46 PM.
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2009-06-05, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
How completely ridiculous. These Spivak pronouns are just third person plural pronouns - they, their, them with the 'th' taken off. If you're going to use them, why not just use third person plural anyway?
As in:
"Vaarsuvius read their note aloud to themself."
rather than
"Vaarsuvius read eir note aloud to emself"
Advantage being that the use of the third person plural for unknown gender is grammatically correct.Spoiler
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2009-06-05, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
Abandon pronouns altogether.
"Vaarsuvius read the note aloud."
"Vaarsuvius grows tired of your insolence."
Really, people. You have many things to call V: Vaarsuvius, V, that damn elf, Suvie, the idiot wizard, Blackwing's master, etc.
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2009-06-05, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
Don't forget Mr. Squishly! (I'm sure MitD COULD have called him that)
(I'm going off of the pattern that they are all Mr. that he uses...it sounds funnier that way)Last edited by Fayd; 2009-06-05 at 10:15 PM.
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2009-06-05, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
It could be translated into Japanese - that'd work better than english - you wouldn't have to resort to cheap explanations for the pronouns other characters used, since gendered pronouns are very much optional in Japanese. You'd have to choose which first-person pronoun V uses, but even with that it's not as much of a solid rule as in english
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2009-06-05, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
These days I just resort to "V." It's got the same pacing as "He" or "She"... and Voila! In view humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the “vox populi” now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin, van guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition...
...
Yeah okay enough of that.Member of a fanclub.
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2009-06-05, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
Oh, I never said I was offended by the nonsence pronouns, only that they bothered me. I am, however, violently opposed to political correctness as I see it as no more than a way for people to try to force their views on me and regulate my speech.
That aside, I agree with those before me who said we should all just take up Orcish... I mean...
Me think we all need speak Orc. Orc is da best talk! Crush puny elf thing and its lack of Orcness!
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2009-06-05, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender
Indeed!
First-Letter Pronouns (e.g. R for Roy, B for Belkar) can eliminate a lot of problems in complex sentences. For example, in "Roy asked Durkon for his share of the stew", "his" is ambiguous; "Roy asked Durkon for D's share of the stew" or "Roy asked Durkon for R's share of the stew" are precise, while not lengthier than the 1st sentence.
Another issue to consider is that gendered pronouns get awkward in a world with Shape-Change.
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2009-06-05, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender
Yeah it's not like real life has a Belt of Gender Changing...
http://www.tonightshowwithconanobrie...13#vid=1116901
15 minutes in...
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2009-06-06, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
It's the nature of pronouns to leave out details for the sake of simplicity. Otherwise, we never would've invented them.
It's weird, but I've been reading since 2004 (when Burlew did that guest comic for 8-Bit Theater) and it took me months (years? I'm not sure when) to catch on that there was gender confusion - it wasn't until Belkar actually voiced it that I realized there was an issue. I've always thought of V as male, because V seemed to have the "rectangular" base body that all the male characters had, instead of the "curvy" base of the females. It wasn't until a lot later that I realized V's actually wearing robes which aren't quite rectangular.
I still think find myself treating V as a dude, actually, when I'm not thinking about it.Last edited by skim172; 2009-06-06 at 12:07 AM.
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2009-06-06, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
The pronoun she is commonly applied to objects.
Objects commonly don't have defined genders.
Therefore V is an object, and a she.Last edited by ImmortalAer; 2009-06-06 at 02:47 AM.
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2009-06-06, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-06, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
It seems to me like some people on this thread actually do object to the use of these so-called 'politically correct' pronouns. And with much stronger words, but for less actual reason, than I've seen used against other sorts of pronouns. As someone who went through the cartoon crisis in Denmark, and experienced the hostility against people who didn't have the right politically incorrect attitude, I can't help developing equally hostile feelings towards the people who use the term 'political correctness' as a slander against their opponents, in order to shut down a debate.
The OP made a freaking suggestion. Everything else, such as the idea that the OP was trying to oppress you by not letting you disagree with the suggestion, is made up by you. There are plenty of people, here and other places, who've made suggestions, and expressed how they feel about other pronouns, so I find it striking that only people who suggest the use of newer attempts at gender neutral pronouns (such as Spivak) are accused of being against freedom, while others can apparently use words such as 'tyranny' and 'monstrosities' against the choice of words they disagree with, with no consequences (save for annoying me).Last edited by ThunderCat; 2009-06-06 at 05:49 AM.
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2009-06-06, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
So in a battle about words, you are objecting to battling with words?
As someone who went through the cartoon crisis in Denmark, and experienced the hostility against people who didn't have the right politically incorrect attitude, I can't help developing equally hostile feelings towards the people who use the term 'political correctness' as a slander against their opponents, in order to shut down a debate.
The OP made a freaking suggestion.
Everything else, such as the idea that the OP was trying to oppress you by not letting you disagree with the suggestion, is made up by you.
There are plenty of people, here and other places, who've made suggestions, and expressed how they feel about other pronouns, so I find it striking that only people who suggest the use of newer attempts at gender neutral pronouns (such as Spivak) are accused of being against freedom
while others can apparently use words such as 'tyranny' and 'monstrosities' against the choice of words they disagree with, with no
consequences (save for annoying me).Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2009-06-06 at 01:36 PM.
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2009-06-06, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
I think people might be taking a hypothetical grammar debate over an imaginary person a little too personally.
I find Spivak ridiculous myself, because it seems so unnecessary, but have no problems with people using it.
Two logical fallacies:
1) The pronoun "she" is commonly applied to vehicles, countries ("the Motherland"), and virtues ("Lady Liberty"). However, it rarely extends to other non-gendered objects, which are usually referred to as "it." Objects commonly called "she" are often personified as women. "She" refers to the personification, rather than the object itself. Some theories suggest that these objects are considered valued as like one's spouse and were thought of as a loving partner. Since Indo-European language-based societies were usually male-dominated, it was natural to refer to these objects as women.
2) Objects have undefined genders. But an undefined gender does not mean something is an object. A simple logic demonstration:
If something is an orange, then it is a fruit. - Always true.
If something is a fruit, then it is an orange. - Sometimes true.
This is called the "converse." The converse of a statement is not always true. As such:
If something is an object, it has an undefined gender. - Always true.
If something has an undefined gender, then it is an object. - Sometimes true.
So you can't make the logical step from "Objects have undefined gender" to "V is an object."
If V was an object, V would commonly be called "it."
Actually, the more that I think of it, I'd be okay with that. If I was Belkar, I'd do it. Might just annoy it into revealing its gender.Last edited by skim172; 2009-06-06 at 01:30 PM.
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2009-06-06, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
I'm objecting to the way the battle is conducted. Or maybe I'm just objecting to people making it a battle, by dragging political correctness into it.
Political debate should be kept out of these forums. But let me say, that in my experience during a certain period of time in a certain place, 'political correctness' was used to stifle debate.
And other posted have made what? Laws? Decrees? Insults? Or have they expressed their opinions, personal usage, and suggestions?
I did not object when any posted here their personal usage or when they used such in other posts. It was the OP who suggested the we all should use Spivak. I countered that I refused to use such a usage and I criticized the OP for his suggestion, much as his suggestion criticized everyone else.
And what should be the consequence for my use of the word 'tyranny'? What should be the consequence for my strong but tongue-in-cheek disagreement over word usage with the OP?
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2009-06-06, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
And there we have an end to the debate and not just because of Godwin's law.
This forum does not allow political debate and I would rather stop than risk the moderators intervention.
You are of course free to think and express your opinion that I somehow violated some rule of civil discourse by my posts.
As for me, I don't feel I have to defend myself any more.
But as for the suggestion that the forum posters should all use Spivak pronouns, I will continue oppose that crime against pronounceability. To grammar Nazis and thought police everywhere I say that we shall, “Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.”SpoilerOotS Fan-fiction (An alternate OotS-verse starting after page 603. If you want to read it go here)
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2009-06-06, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
I prefer to use an abbreviation for "he or she, it."
In other words, h'orsh'it.
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2009-06-06, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-06, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-06, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
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2009-06-06, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: V's Gender (pronouns)
Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2009-06-06 at 05:21 PM.
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2009-06-07, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
*an attractice female human talking to the screen/crystal ball*
Welcome to Channel d20, finally, after years of research and interviews, we have managed to learn what Varsuvius's gender is from one source that knows both emphatically and mentally. Here is a raven, also known affectionately as Blackwing. Please do tell...
*camera close up to the bird*
Cawcawcawcaw caw caw caw. Caw cawcaw caw caw cawcawcaw...
*back to human*
There you go folks, you heard it... Only and first... on Channel d20 News..."one who has no light to give, loves the darkness"
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2009-06-07, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
a translation
"i wont tell....that would be......cheating"
*cough*
i am now telling blackwing that if he gives us the answer, i will gladly pay him a large sum of gold
caw caw caw caw caw
"he says....what would a familiar want with a large sum of gold?"
*ahem*
i am now telling him exactly what he could do with a large sum of gold....Originally Posted by theinsulabot;Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude;
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2009-06-07, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
You don't give him gold, you give him ginkgo balboa
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2009-06-07, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
This thread is so full of failure...
YOU DISGRACE THE NAME BLACKWING!!DEGENERATION 93: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
IRRITATION 11: If this is the hundreth time you see one of these dumb things, add a number to the Irritation and put it in your signature. This is a flip-off to social experiments.
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2009-06-07, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
Indeed. Shame on that yellow-bellied feathered turncoat.
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2009-06-07, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Exclusive... The definitive answer to V's Gender.
It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.
If you want to stay in touch, reach out to me on twitter (same username).
The best answer is always to ask your DM.
Unless you're the DM, in which case you should talk to your players.