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Thread: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
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2017-06-17, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I have to say, I'm impressed by your ability to blame Bandana for literally everything Andi does, including assaulting Bandana and harboring a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her.
You think a constant torrent of disrespect doesn't merit what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face," but one moment of what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face" merits serious, potentially lethal assault?
As far as I can tell, your argument is couched in both an understanding of events that writes off any actual events in the comic that contradict your position, and an understanding of human behavior and cause and effect that is not only exactly backwards, but manages to both a)equate giving orders to assault and b)hold the victim of assault responsible for being assaulted.
It's a really impressive string of justifications you've put together here, I do admit.
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2017-06-17, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
nothing she did justified Andi's first resort of screaming in her face?
But again, you have a double standard going. Bandana's behaviour must be justified. Andi's behaviour need only be understandable on some level.
So, to put everything on an even playing field: is assaulting your commanding officer in the middle of combat because they briefly yelled at you justified? I don't care that Andi might have been reasonably upset at the death of her comrades. I don't care that we're apparently operating on the belief that chief engineers need to be babysat. Was the assault morally justified?Originally Posted by crayzzOriginally Posted by jere7my
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2017-06-17, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I'm saying that because of Andi's grudge, we can't say that Andi's wrench attack was a "normal" or "reasonable" response - Andi might not have launched such an attack, all other things being equal, on someone she didn't bear a grudge against. Nor, for that matter, might she have neglected her duties as thoroughly.
Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-17 at 06:21 PM.
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2017-06-17, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Where did I blane Bandi for andi having harbor[ed] a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her?
You think a constant torrent of disrespect doesn't merit what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face,"
but one moment of what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face" merits serious, potentially lethal assault?
As far as I can tell, your argument is couched in both an understanding of events that writes off any actual events in the comic that contradict your position, and an understanding of human behavior and cause and effect that is not only exactly backwards, but manages to both a)equate giving orders to assault and b)hold the victim of assault responsible for being assaulted.
Calling Bandi's actions as simply 'giving orders' is simply untrue. I seriously do not know how you can look at the panel in question and think that's an accurate summary. Are you ignoring the entire second- and larger - baloon in which there's nothing approaching an order. Their respective stances? And the bold font?
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2017-06-17, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Compared to the average Drill Sergeant Nasty, I wouldn't say Bandana's body language is out of the ordinary:
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2017-06-17, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Is that a general: Andi is of low moral character and thus anything goes?Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-06-17, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
This is the most ridiculous part to me. Even if we accept that Bandana shouting at Andi was over the line, it's a absurd stretch to say that it immediately makes what Andi does afterward understandable. And the thing is, not only is Bandana under the exact same stressors as Andi, and notably does not assault her, but also Bandana, as well as everyone else in this thread, knows that Andi is doing this not out of concern for the crew, but deliberately to challenge Bandana.
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2017-06-17, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Reflex and the general temporary insanty is morally neutral. If Bandi's choice not to give Andi orders, to engage with her, and finally scream at Andi were not justifiable then she holds all moral blame for the consequences of the auto-wrench.
But so that I can't be accused of dodging the question. Choosing to assault your commanding officer in the middle of combat because they briefly yelled at you is not justified. Good thing nobody did that then. (The panel after the auto-wrench shows at the very least shock at what her hand had done).
Plus, I'm not claiming that Bandi's choices weren't understandable. I just think that they were morally wrong.
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2017-06-17, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
One doing something possibly slightly morally wrong - doesn't mean that one bears all the responsibility for the retaliation - especially with the retaliation is disproportionate.
Harsh words - even "uncalled for" ones - don't justify extreme violence as retaliation.
Bandana cannot - "hold all moral blame for the consequences of the wrench attack" - no amount of criticism of Bandana's words can absolve Andi.
"Shock at what she herself had done" doesn't mean she didn't choose to make the attack - only that Andi didn't fully comprehend herself and her own personality.Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-06-17 at 06:47 PM.
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2017-06-17, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I'm not going to follow a TV Tropes link - far too dangerous I'll never get out - is 'nasty' a term of endearment?
The immediate stressor that leads to the wrenching is the leabing over person screaming at her in her face. When does this happen to Bandi? Notably, Andi does not do anything approaching what Bandi did until Bandi does it. If her motives for striking Bandi was to 'deliberately to challenge Bandana' then why did it take place so close after the screaming of Bandi? Coinicidence?
Its rude to put things in quotations that have never been said, particularly when you are not making that obvious.
May I ask why you are ignoring Bandi's getting in Andi's space and forcing her to lean back? It wasn't only words. It was a physical confrontation. Andi was stunned and then did one strike back. That hardly seems disporportionate.
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2017-06-17, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
That would be true, were "the auto-wrench" not itself such a ludicrous distortion of what happened.
However, she bears no responsibility for Andi's choice to viciously assault her. All the responsibility for that lies with the assaulter, Andi. And since that event, unlike "the auto-wrench" is in the comic, that's what matters. Apparently not to your variant version of the Order of the Stick comic, but that's not important as it is not on this website and, I'm afraid, does not seem likely to be very good.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-06-17, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-17, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
No we already established (by default of no one to my knowledge touching upon this piece of unquestionable logic for some unknowable reason) that because of Andi running in panel 2 of 55 that she came to Bandi over something urgent thus a deliberate challenge or browbeating for thinking she's captain can't be true. Or something like that anyway.
Know mine thinging biran think knot employing >.
*reboots brain. You know I may have found the reason.Last edited by goodpeople25; 2017-06-17 at 06:58 PM.
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2017-06-17, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
When did she choose to attack Bandi? We are never off Andi between the two acts. In one panel she is cowering. Not then. In the next she is obviously to angry to make any choices - stunned by fury. In the next Bandi has been struck. If it was not simple reaction to the confrontation then when was the choice made?
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2017-06-17, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I think that using employer - employee relation to understand the situation of a ship doesn't really function. The captain - sailor situation is much closer to a military one. The captain is responsible for everyone's safety, and needs everyone to do his duty for everyone to be safe. This is why IRL mutiny has some extreme punishments (death in the US, long time prison in other countries, longer for the leader of the mutiny): the mutineer is jeopardizing the safety of everyone on the ship, possibly on extreme distances from any help.
Mutiny is an enormous crime from this point of view. Assaulting a superior officer also is, although it receives a slightly milder punishment in times of peace (like, you won't be killed, everything else is on the table).
At the same time, the captain also is under scrutiny. A good leader keeps his cool, clearly explains priorities, provides perspective, and works on solving problems BEFORE they explode. The Andi situation should have been clear from the start. What Bandana has shown is that she knows more about the general functioning of the ship than the crew members. That makes her a decent first mate, but not a good captain. And the fact that she saw things in a "give orders" (captain) vs "receive orders" (everyone else) perspective was, in retrospective, not very promising, because there is much more in command than giving orders. So she has a lot of room to grow. (IRL a captain could be sent home and lose any chance to actively command if his performance was subpar, but here Bandana doesn't really have any superiors beside Julio, so I guess that doesn't count).
I thought that the reasons for Andi's actions were different priorities than Bandana and the death of crewmates and danger for everyone else. The story decided to go another, anticlimactic way. I found it to be underwhelming, but that's what's written, if it isn't just Bandana's better charisma speaking. Unless there are unexpected developments, that's it.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2017-06-17, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
If "she came to Bandi over something urgent" (your words) and 'She did not want to "report" without "delay."' (Kish's words) then what was the urgent thing that she wished to do? Or are we to assume that she was running merely because The Giant thought she could do with some excercise?
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2017-06-17, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Note that, even by EDs own description if not their characterization, the assault was not reflexive. Andi is yelled at, is angry for a moment, and assaults her commanding officer. She had time to consider her actions.
In the next she is obviously to angry to make any choices - stunned by fury.Originally Posted by crayzzOriginally Posted by jere7my
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2017-06-17, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Every time you excuse Andi's assault of Bandana as something she deserved or provoked out of Andi, and not a product of Andi's grudge and lack of respect for Bandana building to the point where she becomes physically violent, you are doing that.
Every time you say things like this:
You are ignoring the history that led to this behavior. Every time you say something like "auto-wrench," you are stripping Andi's responsibility of her own actions away, and placing more blame on Bandana for Andi's actions, than on Andi for her own actions. Every time you characterize Bandana "getting in Andi's face" as justifying Andi's assault, you are ignoring that Andi has been constantly challenging Bandana's leadership and being insubordinate, and ignoring how that plays into her choice (and it IS a choice, despite your desire to write it off as some involuntary reflex Andi has no control over) to assault Bandana.
Panels 7 and 8, #1062.
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2017-06-17, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Indeed, if you were actually, seriously arguing that Andi suffers from psychotic breaks, you should be arguing that she ought to be restrained until she can get treatment, lest she assault more of her supposed allies. Yet you're not suggesting that, quite the contrary. So apparently, in your version of events, she has an extremely selective level of madness: crazy enough that her assault gets a silly term you made up rather than the most basic-level acknowledgement that hey she assaulted someone with a wrench, yet sane enough that it makes sense to let her go right back to duty as if she was someone who recognizes that she made a bad choice and won't make it again.
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2017-06-17, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Just to be clear, this thread once was about A True Fan and their thoughts on everything sucking, right?
Andi was consistently disrespectful and insubordinate to Bandana due to issues accepting her leadership, Andi brained Bandana with a wrench and took over command of the ship not out of malice but in a moment of extreme stress, Andi proceeded to be a worse captain than Bandana. Regardless of her or Bandana's quality as captain, Andi probably shouldn't have attacked Bandana from behind with a wrench. But she isn't really a bad person, she just had an axe to grind with Bandana before everything went wrong, and freaked out when everything did go wrong and people started dying violent deaths. I thought this was pretty clearly established, but shrug.Last edited by oppyu; 2017-06-17 at 07:12 PM.
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2017-06-17, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Yes, she had time but the she was not in the emotional state.
The word "obviously" is doing all the rhetorical work here. It's a cop out.
In the next she is too angry to make any choices - stunned by fury.
Every time you excuse Andi's assault of Bandana as something she deserved or provoked out of Andi, and not a product of Andi's grudge and lack of respect for Bandana building to the point where she becomes physically violent, you are doing that.
Consider, in how many panels could the reflex story possibly hold true. A handful. How many, could the escalating her general disrespect story hold true. Absolutely loads. And yet the assault did come in one of those those in the handful. Does that not at least suggest reason to pause for thought?
And also, when her comment to Roy a hundred comics back is bought up. Is that not trying to blame Andi for Bandi's string of choices?
Edit:
Indeed, if you were actually, seriously arguing that Andi suffers from psychotic breaks, you should be arguing that she ought to be restrained until she can get treatment, lest she assault more of her supposed allies. Yet you're not suggesting that, quite the contrary. So apparently, in your version of events, she has an extremely selective level of madness: crazy enough that her assault gets a silly term you made up rather than the most basic-level acknowledgement that hey she assaulted someone with a wrench, yet sane enough that it makes sense to let her go right back to duty as if she was someone who recognizes that she made a bad choice and won't make it again.
Last edited by Emperor Demonking; 2017-06-17 at 07:22 PM.
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2017-06-17, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
The immeadiate stressors are the events ongoing in the ship, i.e. the deaths of several pirates and your stated reason for Andi's current state. And, sure, Andi doesn't scream at Bandana, but neither does Bandana ever brain Andi with a metal tool, so I think it's pretty clear neither of them are trying to match the other in actions. And to be clear, I think it is absolutely likely and reasonable (though not necessarily right*) for Bandana's reaction to Andi's disdain to be to shout at her, and that it is entirely unreasonable for the follow up reaction to be a physical assault. Her outright motive for striking Bandana is probably rage, something I hold strongly against her, but her motive for talking to her in the first place (and the underlying motive of all her actions) is almost certainly a misplaced belief that Bandana should not be captain.
*if you wanted to solely make the argument that Bandana shouldn't have reacted this way and highlight of how she can improve as a captain, I might even agree, but in making the claim that not only are what she and Andi did on the same level morally, but also that what Bandana did in anyway automatically resulted in what Andi did you bring this argument way past whether or not what Bandana did was "right".
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2017-06-17, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I think the main problem here is we're trying to assign objective morality to the otherwise arbitrary and subjective order of command.
So what if Andi is the engineer and Bandana is the captain? Does that make Andi less of a person because of her status? Does it make Bandana more important in a moral sense? Of course not. Any sort of 'Oh what if you attacked an officer' argument makes no sense, it is equally moral or immoral as some random stranger attacking another stranger, or the higher ranked person attacking a lower ranked person. Saying that physical violence is a right or duty for a higher ranking person while a crime for a lower ranking person just shows the problems with the system morally, and how people just accept the system being wrong.
Think of it this way: If one person constantly berated his 'friend', constantly throwing insults before finding themselves in a sticky situation then eventually leaning in to point blame at a time of extreme stress, and possibly trauma, before taking a punch to the face, who would be in the wrong? (hint: it's more than one person)
That being said, it's very easy to assign who's stupid and who's smart, which is also completely unrelated - being a better leader doesn't let you be a jerk, or allow you to be violent.
In my opinion Andi was being stupid, Bandana should've accounted for that, but no one's perfect especially at leading so it's still mostly Andi's fault. Morally, both are to blame, being captain is a hard job because you tread the line between being strict and deserving a good whack.Last edited by TeCoolMage; 2017-06-17 at 07:26 PM.
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2017-06-17, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
its a good thing that Bandana never berated Andi once, let alone constantly
also what happened to this thread? i read through the whole thing I can't even tell where to conversation switched (but i have respect for the people that were trying to have a discussion about Nale in all of this)Last edited by The Extinguisher; 2017-06-17 at 07:27 PM.
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2017-06-17, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Except the person doing the berating is also the one doing the punching. I guess if you wanted to talk about the lines where Bandana asks to be called captain you could include that as "berating" but then you're missing some pretty vital context and Andi is still in the wrong there, even if Bandana could have been more diplomatic.
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2017-06-17, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
Notably, Andi does not do anything approaching what Bandi did until Bandi does it.
Yes, Andi was righteously enraged that Little Miss Junior Captain, the kid she used to babysit, dared to shout orders at her and criticize her. Thus, in her rage, she chose to hit her over the head, later bragging that Bandana's failure to obey her made her "something that wasn't working" that she had "fixed" by hitting her with a wrench. Mysteriously, that is not a justification, and nowhere but in your mind did Bandana shout, "Suggestion: Attack me when I turn my back!"Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-06-17, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
The deaths of the pirates happened a strip or two before. The screaming occured two panels before. The screaming is obviously more immediate. I don't see any room for debate there.
And, sure, Andi doesn't scream at Bandana, but neither does Bandana ever brain Andi with a metal tool, so I think it's pretty clear neither of them are trying to match the other in actions. And to be clear, I think it is absolutely likely and reasonable (though not necessarily right*) for Bandana's reaction to Andi's disdain to be to shout at her, and that it is entirely unreasonable for the follow up reaction to be a physical assault. Her outright motive for striking Bandana is probably rage, something I hold strongly against her, but her motive for talking to her in the first place (and the underlying motive of all her actions) is almost certainly a misplaced belief that Bandana should not be captain.
*if you wanted to solely make the argument that Bandana shouldn't have reacted this way and highlight of how she can improve as a captain, I might even agree, but in making the claim that not only are what she and Andi did on the same level morally, but also that what Bandana did in anyway automatically resulted in what Andi did you bring this argument way past whether or not what Bandana did was "right".
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2017-06-17, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
So what if Andi is the engineer and Bandana is the captain?
If you have an issue with how well the captain is doing their job, you deal with that after the conflict. If poor captaining is likely to get you killed mid conflict, rebellion mid conflict will almost certainly increase those odds.
The corollary of this, then, is that assaulting the captain mid conflict is worse than mere assault, since it also jeopardizes the ability of the ship to weather that conflict.
That's why Bandana's captaincy is often mentioned. It's important context here.
EDIT:
I'm saying that if you were to get in the face of a random person during a crisis and screamed at them you would find yourself getting struck quite often.
And really, you'd deserve it.Last edited by crayzz; 2017-06-17 at 07:35 PM.
Originally Posted by crayzzOriginally Posted by jere7my
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2017-06-17, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is OOTS even trying anymore?
I'm not sure its possible to overweight Bandi's descision to turn it into a physical confrontation.
Again, if the screaming and the wrenching are unrelated then why are they two panels apart?
Edit:
Assuming that you're willing to go when they say go, then I don't think that's true actually. I think the vast majority of people would rather solve a problem than indulging it and finally screaming at it. Particularly in a crisis.Last edited by Emperor Demonking; 2017-06-17 at 07:41 PM.
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2017-06-17, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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