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2011-09-11, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
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2011-09-11, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Toughness, yeah... language barrier.
Here is the list, check by yourself.
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2011-09-11, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
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2011-09-11, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
My favorite here is still "gaining cover with a tower shield grants the tower shield itself cover."
- Smaller creatures gain bonuses to hide because they are smaller. Makes sense. But it begins to get silly when you realize that two diminutive creatures will never find each other ever.
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2011-09-11, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Kansas
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2011-09-11, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2011-09-11, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
As DMG a Tiny creature cannot attack a Small creature as it cannot enter in its square.
@Amphetryon
I made a quick count, there are about 110 feats and I counted 47 that I do not think anyone would ever want. I might not be `most', but it is surely `many'.Last edited by etrpgb; 2011-09-11 at 05:07 PM.
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2011-09-11, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Missionary Pirate Ship
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Spoiler
Do you surmise it's wise to have laser beams emitting from your eyes?
-They Might Be Giants, "The Lady and the Tiger"
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2011-09-11, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Please elaborate.
--
Also, regarding Spot checks, I'm not quite sure if I'm just not reading the rules correctly... or if an average person cannot see another average person beyond 200ft (60 metres) even if the latter isn't even trying to hide (Spot check +0, Hide Check 0, Distance penalty -21).Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
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2011-09-11, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Missionary Pirate Ship
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Originally Posted by SRDSpoiler
Do you surmise it's wise to have laser beams emitting from your eyes?
-They Might Be Giants, "The Lady and the Tiger"
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2011-09-11, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection
Fun stuff: History of the game.
In D&D 3.0, the DMG does not include the Dragon Disciple PrC - that was found in a different book. Additionally, the 3.0 DMG PrC header had the same clause that shows up in the 3.5 Complete Arcane and the 3.5 Complete Warrior books.
In D&D 3.5, the DMG inludes the Dragon Disciple PrC... and the DMG PrC header does not include the troublesome clause that shows up in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior.
The clause was specifically removed from the DMG in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition. Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior? They were very early books in 3.5, that mostly functioned as compilations of various items from 3.0 sources with minor edits.
As nearly as I can tell, the presence of that troublesome clause is an editing error.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2011-09-11, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
By RAW, Swordsages only get Wis to AC in light armor. (i.e. any other level of armor - including no armor at all - loses the bonus.)
Not sure what the issue is with Unarmed Swordsages, they seem playable. (though they would be hit even harder by the rule above.)
I don't think it belongs in 3.5 either - but again, this is the "silly rules" thread.Last edited by Psyren; 2011-09-11 at 05:13 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-09-11, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2011-09-11, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Minnesota
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Only works in light armor.
Have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, don't get it as a bonus feat.--
Also, regarding Spot checks, I'm not quite sure if I'm just not reading the rules correctly... or if an average person cannot see another average person beyond 200ft (60 metres) even if the latter isn't even trying to hide (Spot check +0, Hide Check 0, Distance penalty -21).Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
My Steam profile
Warriors and Wuxia, Callos_DeTerran's ToB setting
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2011-09-11, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
The Swordsage's AC Bonus technically only applies when they are in light armour (and unencumbered while not using a shield). Strict reading of RAW does not grant them this bonus when they are actually unarmoured. Amusingly.
This is exacerbated with Unarmed Swordsages, who lose proficiency with light armour.
Edit: Swordsage'd. Fitting.
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2011-09-11, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
I blame Fighter. The very existence of the class devalues the worth of melee feats.
Looking over SRD for general feats:
Utterly useless (30):
SpoilerAcrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Athletic
Combat Casting
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
Endurance
Improved Counterspell
Investigator
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Trample
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Shot On The Run
Great Cleave
Improved Overrun
Run
Self-Sufficient
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Two-Weapon Defense
Mostly useless (29):
SpoilerArmor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Blind-Fight
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Whirlwind Attack
Mobility
Spring Attack
Diehard
Eschew Materials
Extra Turning
Great Fortitude
Improved Turning
Snatch Arrows
Stunning Fist
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Sunder
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency,
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
That's 59 out of PHB's 92 general feats. Then there are 17 metamagic or item creation feats.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-09-11, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Indianapolis
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
There's 110 feats in the PHB. 16 of those are the +2/+2 skill feats and Skill Focus. So a bit over a tenth are almost completely pointless. Then there's the class that is merely 'really bad', often because you can get the same effect with something less valuable than a feat- the save boosters, Armor/shield proficiencies, and weapon proficiencies. 3 saves, 3 kinds of armor, 3 kinds of weapon (I *might* exempt Exotic Weapon Prof from this, but just because the Spiked Chain is pretty good. Everything else is a terrible return on a feat), 2 different shield proficiency feats. 11 more feats, and we're up to just shy of one quarter of the feats are what I'd call truly almost useless, in that you could pretty easily forget you ever took the feat, and probably strike the bonus it gave you off your sheet without noticing too much (actually, Toughness probably belongs here too. So 28 feats.)
And there's the stuff that *would* be useful, if the core mechanics worked differently/better- Great Cleave. Extra Turning/Improved Turning without really relevant things that work off Turning. Stunning Fist for everybody who isn't a Monk taking it as a bonus feat. Improved Overrun. Improved Counterspell. Eschew Materials. Spring Attack and Shot On The Run. Trample. Ride-By Attack. Combat Casting. Dodge and Mobility. The mechanics associated with all of these are either weak, dysfunctional, or generally irrelevant enough that it would take either dramatically more powerful feats or a system rewrite to make the associated feats useful. And now we're up to 42 feats that I would not consider worth using outside of builds carefully designed to abuse a certain ability (or that were forced into it by prestige classes, I'm lookin' at you Combat Casting and Skill Focus.)
And let's get into stuff that is actually kinda useful, but just completely fails to be worth a rare feat slot! How 'bout Endurance and Diehard? Whirlwind Attack? Run? Track (as somebody's sig says re: Rangers-"we were given a railroading tool and tricked into believing it was a class feature") Improved Feint? Widen Spell (even metamagic has a turkey in it!) Two-Weapon Defense? Point-blank Shot? Far Shot? 52 feats so far, not terribly far from a majority!
Thankfully, we're now into the realms of merely questionable feats, the stuff you take because it does something decent and you're stuck in Core so you don't have a better way to get these effects, it's required to make a poorly-supported concept work, or you just ran out of really good feats. (Note: This bit is strongly personal opinion.) This is the realm of your Weapon Focus and Specialization line. Spell X (Mastery/Focus/Penetration), Two-Weapon Fighting, and Rapid Reload also occupy this level. So that's.. 2 each for the Weapon stuff, 2 more for Spell Focus and Penetration, 3 TWF feats, and then Rapid Reload and Spell Mastery.. 13 more feats on the pile. 65 total. Well more than half the feats in the PHB are somewhere in between "Oh my gods why would you take that" and "well, I guess that's not completely terrible."
Edit: 109 feats. Forgot that Leadership is actually in a DMG sidebar. And I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised that I'm not the only person who took the time to sort all those feats out.Last edited by tyckspoon; 2011-09-11 at 05:31 PM.
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2011-09-11, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
True enough. Of course, with the availability of the Chaos Shuffle, the PHB II retraining rules, and the Psychic Reformation power, the clause also serves a purpose: If the feat cost is a balancing mechanism for stonger PrC's, then the ability to effectively remove the feat cost is a bad thing.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2011-09-11, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Mountain View, CA
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
That one's at least arguable. Unarmed Swordsage says you get "the monk's unarmed strike progression". If you interpret this as gaining the "Unarmed Strike" class feature of the monk, there's no problem because the very first sentence of that gives you Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
Avatar by Ceika.
Archives:
SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
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2011-09-11, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Progression" typically means just the numbers, i.e. in this case, attack bonuses and iteratives.
Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
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2011-09-11, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
You has been more restrictive than me (for example I set Cleave as useful), but I assume we agree on the main point.
I miss the point of the Fighter... isn't the opposite? Bad feats meant bad Fighter?
After all, with lots of Feats of the power of Shock Trooper (that become stronger with the BAB) or lots of Feats that give new ways to attack like the ``Zhentarim Soldier'' levels the Fighter might be interesting.
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2011-09-11, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Minnesota
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
My Steam profile
Warriors and Wuxia, Callos_DeTerran's ToB setting
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2011-09-11, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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2011-09-11, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Knowledge Devotion is poorly designed. It is possible to fail to identify a monster but still gain bonuses to-hit and damage against it even though you haven't got a clue what you are fighting.
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2011-09-11, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Knowledge Devotion is the way of the Wizard of the Coast wanted to say:
- Weapon Focus is wrong, yes... Use this one.
What about Travel Devotion? You can move all your movement in a Immediate Action. It means you can avoid a fall jumping midair! Or do a double jump!Last edited by etrpgb; 2011-09-11 at 05:43 PM.
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2011-09-11, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Oolitic, IN
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Edit: Nevermind, misread what someone said.
Last edited by Jeraa; 2011-09-11 at 05:44 PM.
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2011-09-11, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-09-11, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
I can't disagree, but just the way it works is poorly designed. My group uses this house rule:
If you identify the monster (DC = 10 + HD) then you gain +1 to-hit and damage
For every extra bit of information (for every 5 you exceed the identification DC) you gain another +1 to hit and damage.
To go with it, Ancestral Knowledge is house ruled not to be racially constrained.
As for Weapon Focus, it scales by level. At level 4, weapon focus automatically grants weapon specialization. At level 8, it automatically grants Greater Weapon Focus. At level 11, it automatically grants Greater Weapon Specialization. Then it stops.
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2011-09-11, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Minnesota
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
My Steam profile
Warriors and Wuxia, Callos_DeTerran's ToB setting
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2011-09-11, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Well. I think that's okay. It is a kind of mini-teleport. There are lots of ways to do this.
What bugs me about most Devotion feats is that Clerics get so much more out of them. Right, because this class really needed more of a boost than any Mundane. oÔ
But well, it's bad game balance, not dysfunctional as such.Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.