Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Cheesegear]

...I need to start reading the last pages of codices. I've made a multi-melta wielding Salamanders for nothing.

...You did read the part where I wrote that it doesn't matter what colour your marines are so long as you follow the rules, right?

Salamanders. Using the Space Wolves Codex. Totally legit.

However, I thought Terminators weren't allowed to use Drop Pods?

Page 102 of regular Codex, Page 61 of Space Wolves...And I can't find my Dark Angels Codex, and I don't have a Black Templars Codex;

"[Terminators] cannot embark Rhinos or Razorbacks."

Drop Pods and Land Raiders are fair game. They just don't usually use Drop Pods because they can Teleport for free. Except for Space Wolves because they're crap.

Nah. It was more 'Why would I spend 35 points(I think that's how much it costs) on a drop-pod when they could teleport in for free?

Okay, I really did explain this;
Normal Space Marines, have Terminators coming in at 200 Points. Can Teleport. There's a massive downside to teleporting, in that if they land on something...Bad stuff happens.

Space Wolves can't Teleport at all. They have a crap Primarch. However, they have cheap Terminators, coming in at 165 Points. Give them a Drop Pod, and they're back to 200 Points (which is what you have to pay anyway if you play another Chapter), and you have a Drop Pod for extra shootiness. Here's the other part; Drop Pods can't Mishap.

[Dark Faun]

I meant that I made a multi-melta for nothing because I wouldn't bother with it if I could have two assault weapons in the same squad.

Counter Attack just doesn't seem very fluffy though. Nor the elite scouts, though those I can simply avoid.

Also, I read in the latest WD that a Crimson Fists sprue should be out by the end of November. Thought I would mention it, since they might be useful for Imperial Fists...

[Cheesegear]

IAlso, I read in the latest WD that a Crimson Fists sprue should be out by the end of November. Thought I would mention it, since they might be useful for Imperial Fists...

I'm aware. And excited.

Also, the way I'm reading it; Any squad (if it has the option) can buy a Land Raider or Razorback (and to a lesser extent, a Rhino) as a Dedicated Transport, even if they have more models in the unit than the Transport can hold. They just can't get into said Transport. Correct?

[Arcanoi]

If a unit purchases a dedicated transport, it must enter the game in the transport. So if the unit is too large for the transport, you get the transport, empty, and no units.

[Cheesegear]

If a unit purchases a dedicated transport, it may enter the game in the transport.

Fixed it for you.

A unit never has to be inside it's Transport. Ever. Not even at the start of the game. Otherwise the Blackshirts wouldn't be saying my idea (above) is okay.
Which consists of two Flamers/Meltaguns in a Grey Hunters squad, buying a Razorback (with Lascannons) for them, and having the tank bugger off at the start of the game.

[Erloas]

If a unit purchases a dedicated transport, it must enter the game in the transport. So if the unit is too large for the transport, you get the transport, empty, and no units.

The only thing it says about dedciated transports is that they don't take up a slot on the FOC and that when deployed only the unit it was bought for can be embarked in it.

It doesn't say anywhere that they have to start the game in the transport. As a side, most people seem to forget this or get it wrong (possibly because of a previous edition, I'm not sure) but any unit that isn't barred from using a transport (such as terminators in a rhino) can use any transport once the game has started. You can buy a dedicated transport for one unit, set it up empty infront of another unit and embark that unit in the transport on your first movement phase if you want to. I don't know why you would do that, but you could if there was some reason for it.

Tau often have dedicated transports they don't start out embarked in, since some units are required to have them even if they don't have a use for it.

[Cheesegear]

The only thing it says about dedciated transports is that they don't take up a slot on the FOC and that when deployed only the unit it was bought for can be embarked in it.

Emphasis mine. That was my understanding too. Nowhere does a unit have to go inside at any point.
The exception is Drop Pods. Where the unit enters play from said Pod.

possibly because of a previous edition, I'm not sure

The previous edition (and wording in 'current' Witch Hunters) says
"A squad which numbers six or less models may select..."
Meaning, if the unit contains seven or more, they can't have a Razorback or Immolator.

Current edition (sans old codecies) has lost that wording. You can now buy Razorbacks for any squad that has the option to. I'm just trying to figure out if it would be a good idea.

Since Grey Hunters can't take heavy weapons, 40 Points for an armoured Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter seems like a pretty good idea. Park the vehicle in front (because your Hunters' bolters are out of range anyway) and block LoS to the unit behind - the Hunters.

It seems like a legit plan. It's a plan for gits, sure. But it's legit.

You can buy a dedicated transport for one unit, set it up empty infront of another unit and embark that unit in the transport on your first movement phase if you want to. I don't know why you would do that, but you could if there was some reason for it.

The only unit I can think of is Space Marine scouts. Who can ride in a Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider, but can't purchase one themselves. Maybe Infiltrating is a bad idea at the time or something. I don't know. But they can do it.

Can Kroot select and/or embark vehicles? They'd be Infantry, right? So, barring some stupid rule that I don't know about, they could do it too.

[Arcanoi]

I seem to recall that from somewhere. It's probably from an old codex, I haven't read any codex beyond Tyranids, CSM, and DoC in a long time. It might also be from Armored Fist Squads or something.

[Cheesegear]

I seem to recall that from somewhere. It's probably from an old codex, I haven't read any codex beyond Tyranids, CSM, and DoC in a long time. It might also be from Armored Fist Squads or something.

Tyranids don't get Transport vehicles. Neither do Daemons. And Chaos Space Marines don't get to have 6-man vehicles. So it doesn't come up. And, Armoured Fist squads no longer exist in the way that you're thinking of.

So, I understand your ignorance. That's alright. It's not bad. You just don't know. And, I've only just come up with this idea yesterday/today.

From the current Big Black Book (unless you've got AoBR, in which case it's the small rule book), page 67;

"The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with [...]. After the game begins it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions [...]."

Nowhere does it say that the vehicle must carry it's 'payload' before - or - at deployment. If it did, there'd be a lot of angry Tau players.

And, even if that were the case (which it isn't, to clear confusion), Codecies supersede the BBB. And Codex: Space Marines along with Space Wolves (possibly Dark Angels, but I've lost the Codex , and I don't have Black Templars), allow ten-man squads to take Razorbacks.

Most people just haven't used this tactic because of the rule of Combat Squads in Space Marines, allowing you to split the squad into five. Fully enabling the Razorback to use it's transport capacity again.

Although, with the advent of Codex: Space Wolves,
One, The Combat Squads rule is gone.
Two, Space Wolves can't have Heavy Weapons in their 'Tactical Squads'.

Ergo, the ten-man 'Razorback Squad' will need to get used if you want more Heavy Weapons. And, the difference between a Rhino and a Razorback is only five points. More if you upgrade. Which I would. TL Lascannons are sweet.

Codex Witch Hunters still has the 'wrong' wording. Since it's old. And Sisters' Squads with more than 6 models can't take Immolators at all.
And Inquisitors with a large Retinue can't ride in their vehicles, etc.

[Ecks Dee]

So, I've just unearthed my ancient Dark Eldar book, and was fooling around with lists. On the basis that fourteen million Dark Lances are the order of the day, what do you think of this:

HQ:

Asdrubael Vect. 277

Big tank-y unit, capable of absorbing a fair bit of enemy fire on its AV14. BS6 plasma cannons are fun, too.

Haemonculus, riding a reaver jetbike, with a scissorhand, destructor, haywire grenades, shadow field, hell mask, combat drugs. 139.

Haemonculus, riding a reaver jetbike, scissorhand, destructor, haywire grenades.

Haemonculus, riding a reaver jetbike, scissorhand, destructor, haywire grenades.

Typical Dark Eldar deathstar unit. I went with Haemonculi rather than a lord because T4 (5) is funny, and the access to destructors and scissorhands is pretty nice, too. They'll zoom around with the reaver units, digging people out of cover, (high chance of an AP3+ flamer), and acting a bit like a Space Wolf 'Lone Wolf unit'.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

5 man raider squad, dark lance, shredder, in a raider with night shields. 130.

gg enjoy your vehicles. Basically, the point of these units is to pop transports and destroy the stuff inside, while hovering just out of rapid fire/heavy bolter distance. There's nothing I can do about lascannons and the like, though.

3 Reaver Jetbikes, 2 shredders. 105

3 Reaver Jetbikes, 2 shredders. 105

Go with the haemonculi, S6 blast people.

Ravager, 3 disintegrators, night shields. 140

Ravager, 3 disintegrators, night shields. 140

Ravager, 3 disintegrators, night shields. 140

Troop killing gravy. 9 plasma cannons, or 27 S4AP3 shots sound quite nice.

I realise this list is monstrously fragile, and has all of 21 kill points, but it's pretty killy - what do you think?

[Lorn]

The only unit I can think of is Space Marine scouts. Who can ride in a Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider, but can't purchase one themselves. Maybe Infiltrating is a bad idea at the time or something. I don't know. But they can do it.

IG Special Weapon Squads.

Three flamers from the squad plus two heavy flamers from a Chimera.

Or, my preferred option (which, while needlessly pricy, can be funny as all hell) involves putting three detpacks into a unit, driving them up, and detpacking the enemy HQ or similarly expensive and/or nasty unit - in the old rules, you could use one detpack per unit per turn. These days, this isn't the case, and they're considerably more accurate. Yes, Marbo works better for this (Marbo is my favourite anti-Biovore tool these days...) but he's one man and one detpack :p

Should work with meltaguns as well, or anything else - IGSW squads are short range and die easily, but give them a Chimera and they're suddenly very, very nasty in the right hands against the right army.

...

"Your devastators are dead. Your HQ is dead. All from one Troops choice and your assumption you could easily take me in assault..."



Also, Grey Knight squads. Rhinos can transport Marines, but cannot be bought for GK...

Similar logic could be used chucking an Inquisitor Lord into an SM army. Give the Lord's Land Raider to Terminators and spend HS choices on lots and lots of Devastators and lots and lots of plasma cannons.

Or Assault Marines, though this is mostly pointless.

[Hyrael]

I'm starting a big campaign at my FLGS later this month, and I have some time and a little cash to add a unit or two to my army. And, after an embarassing defeat vs guard last night, I realized I need to A) tweak my list, and B) learn how to play ranged Chaos properly. Alot of my experiences have been with Kroot Mercs, so I really dont know how to sit back and shoot.

Here's the 2K list I have right now

Chaos Sorceror (Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Bolt of Change, Meltabombs) 185 points
Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Doombolt) 185 points
Chaos Space Marines(x10, 2 meltas, Chaos Glory, Champ with Powerfist and Combimelta) 230 points
X2 Thousand Sons (8+sorceror, Doombolt, Rhino with, respectively, combi-plasma and Combi-melta) 299
Warpmarines (counts-as plaguemarines) (x8, 2 Plasma guns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession and Havok Launcher) 284 points
Chaos Land Raider (Dirge Caster, Havok Launcher) 240 points
Defiler 150 points
Obliterator cult (x2) 150 points

So, what's glaringly wrong?

[Lorn]

I'm starting a big campaign at my FLGS later this month, and I have some time and a little cash to add a unit or two to my army. And, after an embarassing defeat vs guard last night, I realized I need to A) tweak my list, and B) learn how to play ranged Chaos properly. Alot of my experiences have been with Kroot Mercs, so I really dont know how to sit back and shoot.

Here's the 2K list I have right now

Chaos Sorceror (Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Bolt of Change, Meltabombs) 185 points
Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Doombolt) 185 points
Chaos Space Marines(x10, 2 meltas, Chaos Glory, Champ with Powerfist and Combimelta) 230 points
X2 Thousand Sons (8+sorceror, Doombolt, Rhino with, respectively, combi-plasma and Combi-melta) 299
Warpmarines (counts-as plaguemarines) (x8, 2 Plasma guns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession and Havok Launcher) 284 points
Chaos Land Raider (Dirge Caster, Havok Launcher) 240 points
Defiler 150 points
Obliterator cult (x2) 150 points

So, what's glaringly wrong?

... just a cursory glance, but 40 infantry models do not a good shooty army make.

Nor do loads of assault weapons.

If you're trying to be shooty, max out on heavier weaponry, lose the Land Raider (seriously - they're overrated, Crusaders are better though I don't think these are possible with Chaos) and get more models. If you lost a 2000 point game against Guard with that army, I highly suspect the size of the force to be a big issue, though I'm far from an expert with Chaos.

[Ecks Dee]

... just a cursory glance, but 40 infantry models do not a good shooty army make.

Nor do loads of assault weapons.

If you're trying to be shooty, max out on heavier weaponry, lose the Land Raider (seriously - they're overrated, Crusaders are better though I don't think these are possible with Chaos) and get more models. If you lost a 2000 point game against Guard with that army, I highly suspect the size of the force to be a big issue, though I'm far from an expert with Chaos.

And let's face it, it would be a much better - but much more generic list if it had more Oblits, plague marines in every troops choice, and lash princes.

But yeah, the main purpose of a generic land raider is to ferry monstrous assault units about - it's a fairly disappointing gunship.

[Hyrael]

Okay, so, nix the Land Raider, add another obliterator, and a squad of shooty-guys?

I had two ideas there: Havok squad with Two autocannons (0r autocannon/Hbolter) and two missile launchers. long range light-vehicle-popping and anti-infantry

Or, a chosen squad with Autocannon, and 4 twin-linked bolters.

Regarding the assault weapons: The normal CSM are tank-hunters/dedicated assault, thats why they have Meltas. I like to keep my options open.

or should I just add another squad of CSM with Plasma/Hbolter/MoT?

A final question: How do I use Tzeentchian sorceror properly? I mean, I'm stuck using mine as freaking anti-tank/melee monster, thanks to the dual uses of warptime, but frankly, I feel he's underutilized. should I just hang the sense of it and use Ahriman?

[YPU]

I am going to build a small deamon army for fantasy with the money I will soon have. (1000pts for just under 100euro’s hell yes) and my friends already told me they wouldn’t mind the squire bases being used in 40K. Now one of my friends plays deamon hunters, and I was wondering if the special rules between those two armies ever got updated?

[Hyrael]

I am going to build a small deamon army for fantasy with the money I will soon have. (1000pts for just under 100euro’s hell yes) and my friends already told me they wouldn’t mind the squire bases being used in 40K. Now one of my friends plays deamon hunters, and I was wondering if the special rules between those two armies ever got updated?

Nope, they were never updated. that means that all his spiffy anti-psychic power abilities dont do jack **** vs your sorcerous abilities. they can punch your invuln saves, that's about it.

good for you for playing daemons. what god(s) are you basing your army around? Were I you. I would pick no more than 2. Tzeentch/Khorne is pretty solid, I know from firsthand experience.

[YPU]

at 1000pts it will be pure khorne Since that will net me by far the cheapest army money wise, only heralds need to be metal, three boxes of bloodletters and a box of chaos hounds used as deamon hounds pretty much rounds the 1000 pts.

I like the visual of tzeentch stuff, and I think I could paint some interesting nurgle, slaanesh, well truth be told I never got around painting much flesh yet so it would be interesting. I suppose I will be playing the pure khorne list first and then see what I need most/can afford at the time. I expect that a beast of nurgle or slaanesh will be converted from a chaos spawn at some time.

[Lorn]

Nope, they were never updated. that means that all his spiffy anti-psychic power abilities dont do jack **** vs your sorcerous abilities. they can punch your invuln saves, that's about it.

They can also:

-Halve your WS in close combat. No save.
-Take leadership away from you. I think the max modifier is about -6, but that's getting expensive.
-Strike in initiative order with thunder hammers.
-Automatically shoot at you when you Deep Strike/are summoned/whatever.
-Deny entire areas of the battlefield to you, to the extent that they can autobreak units, push them off board edges or move out of assault only to charge in again.
-Reroll wounds against Daemons with certain units.

And that's (mostly) just the actual Inquisitors... when GK get onto the field, you have -1 Ld throughout your force, and the fact that you then have to deal with Grey freaking Knights. Nothing likes fighting those things... their ubered-up-heavy-bolters are actually usually a downgrade for their basic troops.

[evisiron]

Hey, bringing two topics to the thread.

1. In a constant struggle to make an all plastic army, I have stumbled trying to figure out Killa Kans. I have considered looted crisis suits or sentinels, but would rather not shell out so much cash for them. Has anyone seen any nice conversions or have any original ideas on making plastic killa kans?

2. I was hoping any veteran players who use orks or are adapt at stomping them could review my list. It is constantly being tweaked, and this is its 5th incarnation, with Ghazgul and the trukk boys being recent additions. For a long time I ignored Thraka due to the points cost, but many insta-dead warbosses have brought him into the realm of consideration:

Spoiler

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1750 Orks

Ghazgul Thraka
__________________________225

Big Mek 35
KFF50
Kombi scorcha 5
_________________________90

30 Slugga’s (6)
-nob 10
-pk 25
-Bosspole 5
_________________________220

30 Slugga’s (6)
-nob 10
-pk 25
-Bosspole 5
_________________________220

12 Shoota Boys (6)
-Big Shoota 5
Trukk 35
Reinforced Ram 5
__________________________117
12 Shoota Boys (6)
-Big Shoota 5
Trukk 35
Reinforced Ram 5
__________________________117

Warbuggy 30
-Scorchas 10
__________________________________40

3 big gunz 20
3 ammo runts 9
_____________________________________69


3 big gunz 20
3 ammo runts 9
_____________________________________69


2 killa kans 50
Rokkits
_______________________________________100


Dedicated battlewagon 90
-2 Big shootas 10
-armour plates 10
Red paint job 5
-deffrolla 20
----------------------115
Nobs 368
___________________________________483

Nob unit

Spoiler

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Nob breakdown:

Painboy 50 with cybork body 5
55

Nob 20 with power klaw 25 kombi scorch 5 cybork body 5 waaagh banner 15
70

Nob 20 with power klaw 25 kombi scorch 5 cybork body 5 bosspole 5
60

Nob 20 with power klaw 25 kombi scorch 5 cybork body 5
55

Nob 20 with big choppa 5 kombi scorch 5 cybork body 5
35

Nob 20 with big choppa 5 cybork body 5
30

Nob 20 cybork body 5
25

Nob 20 cybork body 5 eavy armour 5
30

Stikkbombs +8
-----------------368

---------------------------------------1750

[Wraith]

Hey, bringing two topics to the thread.

1. In a constant struggle to make an all plastic army, I have stumbled trying to figure out Killa Kans. I have considered looted crisis suits or sentinels, but would rather not shell out so much cash for them. Has anyone seen any nice conversions or have any original ideas on making plastic killa kans?

Looted Tyranids!

I love those things. Buy a box of Tyranids Warriors, "Orkify" them with some odd gubbins and bitz and have a slavedriver set into one of the bases as if 'driving' them onwards and there's your unique Killer Kanz. Go ahead and dare anyone to argue!

Quite frankly though, your best bet would be to go on eBay and pick up some cheap IG Sentinels or some Eldar War Walkers, and stick Orks inside them. Anything else that I can think of it either expensive, metal, or usually both.

[evisiron]

Looted Tyranids!

That is awesome!!

Oddly enough, one thing I have considered is making the plastic troll into a Kan (both as may look cool and I want 40k trolls!) but cannot find the troll in my collection to experiment on, so exploring other ideas.

[Wraith]

Oddly enough, one thing I have considered is making the plastic troll into a Kan (both as may look cool and I want 40k trolls!) but cannot find the troll in my collection to experiment on, so exploring other ideas.

Oh great; now I'm having visions of a Troll with an old baked bean tin soldered over the top of it, like it just turned up to the battle inside an old barrel that had eye-holes poked into it

Alternative idea #2: Get some IG Ogryns and paint them green. They already have tusk-filled mouths like Orks and they're about as big as Killer Kans - maybe there are some plastic ones that you can cover with gubbinz to look properly Ork-y.

Boom: Huge, Mutant-Orks, using Kan's stats on the tabletop.

[Dark Faun]

There are plastic trolls?

I agree those are this is the coolest Ork Dreadnought ever. I'd totally do that if I played Orks.

And I found a reason to play vanilla Salamanders instead of Space Wolves Salamanders: Rune Priests can't have storm shields. Librarians can. And I'm in love with the idea of a psyker in Terminator armor with a force weapon and a storm shield.

Vanilla Codex, here I come!

[evisiron]

There are plastic trolls?

Yeah, in the Battle for Skull Pass set.

Had a brainwave - I could use paint pots as a base, and build up with loads of plasticard and bits. An image search shows that it can be done.

So many idea's, so little time...

[Dark Faun]

Yeah, in the Battle for Skull Pass set.

Oh. Thanks.

Yeah, not exactly cheap if you want more than one troll.

Had a brainwave - I could use paint pots as a base, and build up with loads of plasticard and bits.

You're thinking like a real Mekano!

[Hyrael]

at 1000pts it will be pure khorne Since that will net me by far the cheapest army money wise, only heralds need to be metal, three boxes of bloodletters and a box of chaos hounds used as deamon hounds pretty much rounds the 1000 pts.

I like the visual of tzeentch stuff, and I think I could paint some interesting nurgle, slaanesh, well truth be told I never got around painting much flesh yet so it would be interesting. I suppose I will be playing the pure khorne list first and then see what I need most/can afford at the time. I expect that a beast of nurgle or slaanesh will be converted from a chaos spawn at some time.

Metal Herald? No, no, no, no, no, no. Only Skulltaker is in metal. A normal Herald is plastic, and made from a bloodletter with the super-cool horned head in the plastic kit. for the upgrades, add marine bits or give him a gun or a flaming brass skull in his hand, something like that.

I LOOOOOVE daemon heralds, especially heralds of Tzeentch. I make them out of tyranid rippers and kroot.

[Dark Faun]

Since Tzeentch is the god of mutations, you can use anything. It'll fit.

So I was thinking about the "counts as" rule and it dawned on me. I have no Witch Hunters Codex, it's out of print and out of date anyway. Nothing prevents me to use the Space Marines Codex with Sororitas models (even if they're dull, expensive metal with very few helmets).

Now I just need to find a way to model Sisters of Battle with missile launchers.

[Cheesegear]

So, I want to build a Stenguard squad. However, upon 'transferring' the the Space Wolves Codex, I notice;
There's no difference between Wolf Guard and Grey Hunters to begin with.

First, Grey Hunters come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, and 1 base attack - and Leadership 8.
Wolf Guard come with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. You may trade the CCW for a Bolter. And has 2 base attacks. Leadership 9. For an extra 3 points. Most of the time I would trade for the Bolter. Charging forwards is less important in a Wolves' thanks to Counter Attack.

If you're not going to trick Wolf Guard out (Terminator Armour, plethora of weapons, etc.). You're better off staying with Grey Hunters. Joy! I do have trouble deciding between Meltaguns and Plasmaguns though...

I use Drop Pods. So meltaguns are often useful

[Dark Faun]

Meltaguns don't hurt their users. Ever. And as a Salamanders player, I've got a soft spot for them.

If you played Space Wolves instead of Imperial Fists, though, the plasmagun may be fluffier since the Codex goes at length to describe how Space Wolves are in love with the idea of plasmagunning their enemies into goo.

Celestians would make a good Sternguard...