Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Closet_Skeleton]

1500 points of Blood Angels will generally contain 50-80 guys, plus vehicles.

My vehicle free 1500 point Blangel lists are only 50-55 models and tends to draw eyes for how many power armoured bodies it fields. Razorback spam lists can be only about 30.

Blood Angels vehicles are expensive. They either cost more than standard or are regular dreads or land raiders.

[crazedloon]

I find it hard to believe that the BA lists are more diverse than the IG. I would not be surprised if the BA where all variations on razorback spam.

Guard on the other hand have
-infantry (no mech) - which cheese (if I am not mistaken) feels is the stronger list
-mech guard - which is the strongest in my area
-a mix - this will have the biggest variation and I would not be surprised if these place because the vehicles are so good and the units are so cheep that there is a lot of customization.

that is 3 variants each which are competitive (the first two more so than the last but it is possible with a good general or some odd strategies)

while BA have the one (razor spam)

[Erloas]

A ranking system needs to look at a lot more then simply the number of competitive lists an army can build, you also need to look at the relative strength of those lists vs other competitive lists. Even if a codex can field 100 competitive lists, but none of them have a great chance against only 2-3 other lists thats a big blow to their overall competitiveness. The relative weaknesses of the lists you can field is, in my opinion, much more important then its strengths.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I find it hard to believe that the BA lists are more diverse than the IG. I would not be surprised if the BA where all variations on razorback spam.

It doesn't matter if every tournament BA player takes an identical razorback spam list printed off the internet. That doesn't mean they couldn't have been competative with other lists. If only 20% of BA players had razorback lists and they were miles above non-razorback lists it might mean something, but it could just mean that there was a metagame not capable of dealing with that ammount of armour (which is unlikely in a tournament, but I'm talking 'what if' like).

Sometimes a list isn't prevailant because its the only good list a book can make, sometimes lists become prevailant because they sound more powerful than they are and when a book becomes outdated people take them because they don't think more balanced lists will be competative, so when their "hard" list loses they assume its because the its the codex rather than the list that sucks, because this list must be the best list you can make with that codex because its got all the best things in it and was really good when the codex was new (coughnecronmonolithscough).

Razorback spam isn't the only competative Blangle list and its hardly a Blangle only concept. Blangles don't actually intrinsicly razorback spam better than any other space marine army. Black Templars can razorback spam okay according to some people.

I'm not very good with Blangles, but whenever I lose with my deliberately unoptimised list (its themed, but its theme is 'balanced' so I don't consider it that much of a theme army) my opponent always seems to think the battle was a lot closer than it seemed to be to me. My loses are usually tactical. Or I just don't have what's needed to kill those harder than they should be chaos daemon units.

[Tazar]

I have a hard time believing that most Space Wolves tournament lists don't feature Grey Hunters and Lone Wolves prominently, but hey, that could just be my inner cynic.

And yup, I didn't see much Daemonhunters on there, but there were a few Necron players, bless their metal hearts. Can't wait to get on break so I can finally test out my GK in earnest; 3x Land Raider, of course, but what else can you do, right?

Here's hoping they get Rhinos with the new dex; if some of the rumors are to be believed, the new GK book is shaping up to look something like this

Spoiler

Show

, but any revamp is good.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I doubt you'll see too many lone wolves. They aren't that good.

[Cheesegear]

while BA have the one (razor spam)

Well, that's wrong. As I've pointed out before; any list Space Marines make, Blood Angels can make too - with the exception of Bike lists - and, Blood Angels have Assault Marines as Troops. Now, the difference between Assault Marines and Hellions is...Power Armour and Toughness. You can make a rather decent list out of Assault Marines.

Rifles and Devastators? Yep. Blood Angels can do it too. Devastators are even cheaper than in Codex Marines. Sternguard in a Drop Pod? Yep. Works even better because a Librarian can stop people from Assaulting you in their next turn.

The only reason I haven't jumped ship is because Blood Angels don't have Lysander. That's it. And a lot of the internet doesn't even like Lysander.

Stacks of Dreadnoughts? That works too.

People who only think of Razorback Spam aren't thinking hard enough...Or, maybe not thinking at all if they're just blindly going off what the internet tells them. I mean, did you forget about Land Raider spam?

Just because Razorback spam is 'the best' list, doesn't mean its the only list. Although it certainly seems that way sometimes.

[Tazar]

I doubt you'll see too many lone wolves. They aren't that good.

Fair enough, guess they were more widely used in my area.



Thoughts on the new DE? I'm seriously contemplating doing an army of them, as I really like the aesthetic style and want something as far removed from my tough power-armored GK, Ultramarines, and Iron Warriors as possible. How'd the new book play out?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Cheesegear's thoughts are in the first post now. Crazedloon's thoughts on those thoughts are a few pages back and I've posted a few battle reports at 1000 points.

Dark Eldar are basically the same as ever, except the units nobody ever took are worth taking and you can make a haemonculi army, which is completely differant to anything the old Dark Eldar could do.

Though from a differant opinion, the old Dark Eldar book had wyches and grotesques as elites and warriors as troops, while the new one has wyches and grotesques wracks as troops and (trueborn) warriors as elites).

Dark Eldar are very fragile (unless you're taking one of those aformented game changing haemonculi armies), especially to S4 AP5 shooting. Their S3 can also be a horrible detriment in close combat. Their poisoned guns are even with boltguns against t4 and great against monstrous creatures, but against T3 you won't feel special and if the enemy has a 4+ save you'll wish you had lasguns and were half the points. For this and a few other reasons warriors aren't very popular as troops. Only time mine really shined is when their guns tore a wraithlord apart.

Dark Eldar transports are fragile, but in the end so are armour 11 tank ones. Transports rarely last long and Dark Eldar get more out of being able to assault after moving than they lose from the +1 to the damage chart. Its like having an ork trukk that for twice the price can fly and has an infinate shot hunter killer.

I'm guess that the only way to play Dark Eldar at high points values is to spam 4+ of the same troops choice. My one of both choices list does okay at 1000 points but its wyches die eventually even if I win. Twice they've been massacred on turn 1-2 and I've won. At 2000 points I plan on having 4 units of wyches and 2 units of wracks, all in raiders.

Pretty much every unit in the Dark Eldar army can be made to be able to kill anything, and in a few cases this is even a good idea. With 6 units of wyches with agonisers and haywire grenades you don't worry about your enemy causing serious problems. Even if they tie you up with walkers you just need 1 6 and then next round he's probably stunned or immobalised so you can hit on 4s. If not you have a 4+ invulnerable save and maybe a shardnet to protect you.

The standard dark eldar tactic remains charging forwards as fast as possible in your paper planes and hoping the half that gets to the enemy without dying is enough to butcher than to a man.

Way back in the early days of 3rd edition the guys who played Dark Eldar in White Dwarf had a motto. Strike hard, strike fast, strike first. It still pretty much applies.

[lord_khaine]

So, seems i got a battle against a nurgle deamon army.

Seing as i have not seen such an army in action, then i thought i would just ask, whats the most dangerous parts of his army, Soulgrinders and greater deamons?

Also, how much FnP should i be prepared to see?

[onasuma]

Everything will have feel no pain. However, the main issue you'll find will be if he's using Epidurmus (and no nurlge player doesnt). If he is, kill it so fast. If he gets some kills wracked up, you'll be seeing 3+ FNP's and really hardcore poisons. Most nurgle creatures arent really deadly, but they take a long time to die. If you're a swarm army, you should be fine, if not then avoid getting stuck in combat, because you will stay there for the rest of the game.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Well, that's wrong. As I've pointed out before; any list Space Marines make, Blood Angels can make too - with the exception of Bike lists

Just one thing. They don't have Thunderfire cannons and they don't have Master of the forge.

And I do like those.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Well, that's wrong. As I've pointed out before; any list Space Marines make, Blood Angels can make too - with the exception of Bike lists - and, Blood Angels have Assault Marines as Troops. Now, the difference between Assault Marines and Hellions is...Power Armour and Toughness. You can make a rather decent list out of Assault Marines.

I'm not so sure that's true, lets have a looksie at my copy of ye olde Blangel dex.

- Capacity 10 Drop Pods (So, no Librarian + Combat Squadded Sternies. You can only have 8).

- Honour Guard are often not as versatile/strong as Space Marine command squads (they don't glue Storm Shields to their arms, the Storm Shields cost more and they never have the protection of either Bikes or a good Captain. While they have the advantage of coming in with any HQ choice you want and being able to take Jump Packs, they still aren't anywhere near perfect and I'm not sure that they're an improvement, even with Furious Charge).

- Costlier Hammernators, even if not by that much. 50 points is still a bit much to 'waste' (see also: Epistolary Librarian) - and there are times when you want to pack 10 Hammernators and then laugh gleefully at your opponent.

- No Master of the Forge, which might seem a bit 'so what' considering how overlooked he is, but a Master of the Forge can have a really nasty list built around him and his nasty gun.

- 100 point Dakka Preds. 135 point AutoLas Preds.

- ... you know what, I'll say it. Overpriced Vindicators. Fast isn't so important when your Vindicator starts pushing the zone forward, runs 12" and smokes and then rolls the last 6" to let off his cannon. Paying more for the fast is ultimately just paying another 30 points for him to do what he's already doing ... and considering that those points don't address any of the actual problems with Vindicators, this is kind of a big deal. [If it gave the Vindi Scout instead of Fast? Hooboy!]

- No Ironclads. Ironclads are utterly fantastic (as you taught me ).

The thing is that Blood Angels isn't so much a 1-upmanship book over Codex Marines as it is a different Dex with different builds ... well, three. Jumpers, Razors and a combination of the two. If you want to build a Blood Angels list you can't really approach it in the same way as you would a Codex Marine list. Now, it's true that a lot of your own lists carry over because Sniper Rifle scouts are fully represent and Devastators have been more accurately priced, but there are more than enough lists that only work with Vanilla to justify sticking with it for reasons which aren't Lysander.

[Winterwind]

That's just what I'd expect a manipulative AI to say....

Pshh, that's just the ridiculous kind of thing I would expect a meatbag to say. I hope you realize just how stupid this accusation is, <INSERT NAME HERE>.

My vehicle free 1500 point Blangel lists are only 50-55 models and tends to draw eyes for how many power armoured bodies it fields. Razorback spam lists can be only about 30.

Blood Angels vehicles are expensive. They either cost more than standard or are regular dreads or land raiders.

Huh... now I'm scared. My Chaos Space Marine army only has 55-60 models at 2000 points, and all my vehicles are three Rhinos. Am I doing something wrong?

...though I guess CSM do have more expensive troops than Blood Angels...

So, seems i got a battle against a nurgle deamon army.

Seing as i have not seen such an army in action, then i thought i would just ask, whats the most dangerous parts of his army, Soulgrinders and greater deamons?

Soulgrinders, definitely. Depending on upgrades, they can either have a fairly nasty template shot, a fairly nasty single target vehicle killing shot, or both, and they are quite well armoured. Greater Daemons, not so much; Great Unclean Ones are more giant tarpits that are nigh unkillable, but aren't all that fast or destructive.

Now, Daemon Princes are a different matter. Those are much faster and can be a lot deadlier. Fortunately, they are Heavy Support choices just like Soulgrinders, so each Soulgrinder/Prince you face is one less of the other you'd have to face.

Beasts of Nurgle look much scarier than they are. They are durable, but not much else. And they are expensive. Basically, just fire magnets meant to tempt you to waste your fire on them instead of better targets.

Plaguebearers, his troops, are quite durable as far as Daemons go. They have poison attacks, so keep your Wraithlords the hell away from them. Matter of fact, just about everything in this army has poison attacks, so you will want to make sure your Wraithlords only engage stuff that has few attacks and stay out of combat otherwise.

And, as onasuma said, if Epidemius is there, he's the primary target. As long as he's there, all kills his Nurgle models make (so, not his Soulgrinders!) are counted, and when certain thresholds are crossed, all his Nurgle models get more powerful. This goes from improving their FNP and making their poison weapons wound on even lower numbers all the way up to making all of his models ignore armour in combat.

Also, how much FnP should i be prepared to see?

Yeah, pretty much everything.

[lord_khaine]

Thanks for the good advice, i will credit you part of the victory if my Farseer gets out of the battle alive :)

[Deth Muncher]

Hey, for those of you who may remember the last time I asked about army lists, I was pretty noobtarded. In fact, still kinda noobtarded, despite having played the game for a number of years now. I'm wondering, though - is there some sort of collective list of lists played at tournaments? I'm trying to get back into regular play, and I want to see what I need to do to make my Chaos Marines shine.

[onasuma]

Not that Ive ever seen.That said, Mech is king, so expect lots of that.

[Cheesegear]

I'm wondering, though - is there some sort of collective list of lists played at tournaments? I'm trying to get back into regular play, and I want to see what I need to do to make my Chaos Marines shine.

No. I had a list of things that your army should be prepared for, except I don't know where to find it anymore. Winterwind was the last person to link to it.
I'm still a firm believer that quite often 'homebrewed' armies are the ones that win tournaments, since, these days, everyone knows how to net-list. If you're meta-game swings hard to the 'Mech is King' side of the meta-game, you can f* them up royally by taking Infantry spam. And nothing but Infantry. No. No vehicles.
My meta-game swings to the Mech Is King side. Hard. Because we're competitive like that. As long as my opponent isn't carting 3+ Land Raiders, I know exactly what I need to deal with. And that's why my all-Infantry armies tend to work so well.

Anyway, for Chaos Marines...

Spoiler

Show

Abaddon is one of the best 5 characters of the game. Make of that what you will.

Typhus, while not being a T1 character, is fairly high T2. One of his problems is his Terminator Armour makes it very hard to get him into a Rhino, and Chaos Land Raiders aren't the best thing in the world. Short of the Big 5, he'll mow through pretty much everyone else.

None of the other characters are really worth talking about. Maybe Kharn. If you're strapped for points.

Daemon Prince; Slaanesh, Nurgle or Tzeentch. Never Khorne. Slaanesh is 'the best' because Lash of Submission is broken. If you want a Khorne Prince; Make it Undivided. Give it Warptime, and just paint it red and brass.

Chaos Lord; Take Abaddon.
Failing that, Khorne or Undivided is best.
If you want Nurgle; Take Typhus.
If you want Slaanesh; Take a Daemon Prince or Sorcerer instead.

Sorcerer;
Tzeentch is good for making Assault Sorcerers. Warptime + Force Weapon will crap on a Tzeentch Lord.
Slaanesh = More Lashes of Submission. With the added bonus of being able to hide in squads that a Daemon Prince can't do. Sees more play these days because Poison is everywhere, and combating MCs is something people are learning to do. Don't take something your Meta-Game is already dealing with.
Nurgle; Typhus casts powers for free. And has a Poisoned Force Weapon.

Chosen are good for Infiltrating Meltaguns. Not much else.
Terminators are Terminators. What Mark you give them will determine how you use them.
Possessed are s*.
Chaos Dreadnoughts...Iffy. Take at your preference. Most don't.

Never take 'standard' Chaos Space Marines. Cult Troops are just better.

Plague Marines are nominally 'the best' Troop choice in the 'dex. Extra Toughness and FNP mean that their I3 isn't really that big of a deal in Assault. Their extra Toughness and FNP also lets them park on objectives and spew dual-special-weapon fun. Normally Meltaguns or Plasmaguns.

Noise Marines are shooty. Some go MSU and just take lots and lots of Blastmasters and hide in Rhinos.

Berzerkers are what people use when they're not using Plague Marines for whatever reason. Mostly because Berzerkers are plastic and come in boxes of lots so are easier to come by. Also, people like Assault for some reason.

Thousand Sons kill Marines. Not much else. Seriously. Against not-Marines, you'll wish you had Noise Marines or Plague Marines instead. However, do you know how often you'll play Marines?
Thousand Sons also hold objectives ever-so-slightly better than Plague Marines. Due to the fact that they're better in firefights and can shrug off pie plates.

Either way, every Troop choice needs Rhinos. That's just how it is. Chaos Marines love Mechanised. Hail to the King.

Bikers; Crap.
Raptors; Iffy. Obviously, the best marks for them are Tzeentch and Nurgle. They cost that many points for a reason.

Chaos Spawn; Only use if you're using Lash of Submissions. I wouldn't bother otherwise.

Your Heavy Support selections should be anything except Havocs. Chaos Marines just don't need them. Then, take all three Heavy Support slots as the same thing. Players don't like playing against Vindicators with Daemonic Possession.

Greater Daemon; Amazing. Quite a few players - regardless of list - never leave home without one.
Lesser Daemons; Build your list around them. Take loads.

[Deth Muncher]

Not that Ive ever seen.That said, Mech is king, so expect lots of that.

Mech is king? I never v-

No, no. That's been used.

Anyhoo. So, Chaos Mech? How does THAT work. We don't have indirect fire anymore, nor do we have Dreadnoughts that don't suck. Is it just lots of Vindicators and Rhinos?

EDIT: G'herp. Cheesy posted while I was dawdling.

Re-Deadit: So okay. I should go get two more Vindicators (I've got one of the olderschool ones, since I played Iron Warriors in the last Dex).

The problem, then, is that I'm going to have to update what Marines I have, or just call certain squads certain Cult choices. I have a fair amount of Berzerkers as well as all of the special characters, so there's that. And a full squad of Obliterators, which were left out of your analysis unless I derp'd and missed them.

I've got a sorceror at the moment too, and I've been tempted to run him as Tzeench aligned, have him be lieutenant to Abbadon, perhaps.

HYPER EDIT FINISH: Where I'd be playing is pretty much the Land Raider and Termi wankfest, to use a rather vulgar but evocative phrase. If people play Marines, they're in Landraiders. If they're Tau, they're in Broadsides and have the ship-things that have the railguns (whatever they're called). Stuff like that.

[Cheesegear]

Re-Deadit: So okay. I should go get two more Vindicators (I've got one of the olderschool ones, since I played Iron Warriors in the last Dex).

If that's what your army needs? Then yes. If your army doesn't need Vindicators, then go with Predators or Obliterators instead.

The other option is Defilers. Which are like Vinidicators. Just more expensive. For a reason.

The problem, then, is that I'm going to have to update what Marines I have, or just call certain squads certain Cult choices.

Yes. And?
Like I've said before, the only response I have to "But I don't have model X." is, "Get some?"
Well, the other response I have is "Well, then your army will forever be sub-par." But, that doesn't sound nice.

I mean, you can make a fairly decent list out of the regular Marines. But, Cult choices are better no matter which way you shake the sauce bottle.

And a full squad of Obliterators, which were left out of your analysis unless I derp'd and missed them.

Obliterators are Heavy Support. Obliterators are not Havocs. Therefore, Obliterators are good. Especially off Deep Strikes with Melta weapons. Well, your Troops are in Rhinos, right? And in your opponent's DZ with Icons during the second turn, right?

I've got a sorceror at the moment too, and I've been tempted to run him as Tzeench aligned, have him be lieutenant to Abbadon, perhaps.

Give him a Disc of Tzeentch. Have a legit use for Raptors. Give them the Mark of Tzeentch. Pretend that they're Terminators and run them straight up the middle of the board (well, reasonably, depending on cover/terrain). Its units like this that really put your opponent off-guard. Homebrewers win.

Where I'd be playing is pretty much the Land Raider and Termi wankfest, to use a rather vulgar but evocative phrase. If people play Marines, they're in Landraiders.

In that case, Ordnance is your friend. Take Vindicators, Defilers or Deep Striking Obliterators. Against not-Land Raiders, remember that Obliterators are also a reasonably priced, reasonably durable source of Relentless Lascannons to deal with things from your side of the board on Turn 1. Obliterators can do anything! Use that to your advantage. Find that they work. Take more.

Berzerkers are surprisingly good against Terminators. More attacks = More failed armour saves.

[Deth Muncher]

1.If that's what your army needs? Then yes. If your army doesn't need Vindicators, then go with Predators or Obliterators instead. The other option is Defilers. Which are like Vinidicators. Just more expensive. For a reason.

2.Yes. And? Like I've said before, the only response I have to "But I don't have model X." is, "Get some?" Well, the other response I have is "Well, then your army will forever be sub-par." But, that doesn't sound nice. I mean, you can make a fairly decent list out of the regular Marines. But, Cult choices are better no matter which way you shake the sauce bottle.

3.Obliterators are Heavy Support. Obliterators are not Havocs. Therefore, Obliterators are good. Especially off Deep Strikes with Melta weapons. Well, your Troops are in Rhinos, right? And in your opponent's DZ with Icons during the second turn, right?

4. Give him a Disc of Tzeentch. Have a legit use for Raptors. Give them the Mark of Tzeentch. Pretend that they're Terminators and run them straight up the middle of the board (well, reasonably, depending on cover/terrain). Its units like this that really put your opponent off-guard. Homebrewers win.

5. In that case, Ordnance is your friend. Take Vindicators, Defilers or Deep Striking Obliterators. Against not-Land Raiders, remember that Obliterators are also a reasonably priced, reasonably durable source of Relentless Lascannons to deal with things from your side of the board on Turn 1. Obliterators can do anything! Use that to your advantage. Find that they work. Take more.

6. Berzerkers are surprisingly good against Terminators. More attacks = More failed armour saves.

Numbered for my convenience.
1. I will say I've got a Vindicator, two Predators (although one of them is pretty well wrecked at the moment thanks to my gaming shelf falling on me), a Defiler (same state as the Predator), and five(?) Obliterators. (I put the ? because I recently acquired some oldschool non-bulky Oblits, but I don't know where I put them, nor how many there are of them. Two or three, to be sure.)

2. Yeah, that's...pretty much that. I never actually went and got too many of the aligned units ("Pfft, why would I EVER play anything other than Iron Warriors? They're NEVER going to go away." -15 Year Old Deth Muncher) until Apocalypse came out, when I OD'd on Berzerkers, since I ran Kharn with that crazy ruleset for having lots of them. I will say that I have a Tzeentch banner for a squad, but that's probably not good enough, right? They need to be full on 1kSons?

3. So, Rhino Rush, then? Supercharge the Rhinos forward so they can actually deploy Turn 2? Also, do Icons work if the unit is in a vehicle for the purposes of Teleport Homing?

4. That could actually be kind of great. Who'da thunk I'd use something like a DoT? I actually have the Raptors for this to work: I got some back when you could take three or four meltas per squad.

5. This brings up a question I've had for a while: Are Obliterators good to have in Reserves, or should they be on the field Turn 1? Or does that just depend on the person I'm playing?

6. This makes remarkable amounts of sense - sheer brute-forcing them to make saves means they've gotta fail eventually. Yay for an entire charging squad of guys rolling an entire brick of dice!

[Cheesegear]

I will say I've got a Vindicator, two Predators (although one of them is pretty well wrecked at the moment thanks to my gaming shelf falling on me), a Defiler (same state as the Predator), and five(?) Obliterators.

Vindicator is fine. Get more.
Two Predators? I hope they have Turret Autocannons. Sponsons don't really matter, both choices are good. But I hope you have Turret Autocannons.
Defiler is fine. Get more.

...Five Obliterators is not nine. Just saying. Nine Obliterators make a lot of people very unhappy.

I will say that I have a Tzeentch banner for a squad, but that's probably not good enough, right? They need to be full on 1kSons?

No. Not really. They just have to not look like Berzerkers.
I used Dark Angel veterans and a lot of kit-bashing to make mine. But, I'm like that.

So, Rhino Rush, then? Supercharge the Rhinos forward so they can actually deploy Turn 2? Also, do Icons work if the unit is in a vehicle for the purposes of Teleport Homing?

Yes. And Page 81 of your Codex. Yes. Being inside a vehicle is better since the distance is apparently measured from the hull. Some vehicles are rather big. Do with this information what you will.

[Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Raptors] could actually be kind of great.

I know. That's why I said it.
I mean, you've got what you've got. I'm going to at least try and tell you how to make something useful out of it.

This brings up a question I've had for a while: Are Obliterators good to have in Reserves, or should they be on the field Turn 1? Or does that just depend on the person I'm playing?

Depends exactly how many you have of them. And whether or not you're going first. But, ultimately, it depends on the person you're playing. Yes.

This makes remarkable amounts of sense - sheer brute-forcing them to make saves means they've gotta fail eventually. Yay for an entire charging squad of guys rolling an entire brick of dice!

Winterwind did the maths on it once (because he likes Berzerkers). I remember what goes on in this thread. Because I love you. Like Papa Nurgle.

[lord_khaine]

Winterwind did the maths on it once (because he likes Berzerkers). I remember what goes on in this thread. Because I love you. Like Papa Nurgle.

Ewww, thats just plain sick

[Deth Muncher]

Vindicator is fine. Get more.
Two Predators? I hope they have Turret Autocannons. Sponsons don't really matter, both choices are good. But I hope you have Turret Autocannons.
Defiler is fine. Get more.

...Five Obliterators is not nine. Just saying. Nine Obliterators make a lot of people very unhappy.

No. Not really. They just have to not look like Berzerkers.
I used Dark Angel veterans and a lot of kit-bashing to make mine. But, I'm like that.

Yes. And Page 81 of your Codex. Yes. Being inside a vehicle is better since the distance is apparently measured from the hull. Some vehicles are rather big. Do with this information what you will.

I know. That's why I said it.
I mean, you've got what you've got. I'm going to at least try and tell you how to make something useful out of it.

Depends exactly how many you have of them. And whether or not you're going first. But, ultimately, it depends on the person you're playing. Yes.

Winterwind did the maths on it once (because he likes Berzerkers). I remember what goes on in this thread. Because I love you. Like Papa Nurgle.

Papa Nurgle: The one kind of lovin' you don't WANT a vaccine for!

And no, I think both Predators had Las-turrets. :/

Is 9 Oblits > 6 Oblits and a Vindicator? Because I can do that one.

I could always use the Grey Knights I keep talking about wanting to convert to be Iron Warriors Tzeentch Marines, on that kind of kit-bashy note.

Why yes, I will do with that information what I will. >_>

I can't help but feel that this particular choice (Sorc+Raptor Combo) is incredibly points-heavy: My rough estimate using Army Builder is 405 points - which is a total of 7 models. Is 400 points represented by 7 models a good choice? O_o Then again, that's 18 attacks on the charge, 5 of which are Force Weapons, 3 are Lightning Claws (with rerolls to wound, and technically rerolls to hit if Warptime is up), and not to mention two Melta shots first if they're in range just to help soften up whatever they're swarming.

[Cheesegear]

And no, I think both Predators had Las-turrets. :/

Sad face.

Is 9 Oblits > 6 Oblits and a Vindicator? Because I can do that one.

3 Obliterators and 2 Vindicators would be better. 'Just one' Vindicator turns into a bullet magnet. I hope you have Rhinos to take the flak.

I can't help but feel that this particular choice (Sorc+Raptor Combo) is incredibly points-heavy: My rough estimate using Army Builder is 405 points - which is a total of 7 models. Is 400 points represented by 7 models a good choice?

Yes and no.
I count 185 points for the Sorcerer (I gave him Warptime, and not a second power). 185 points is pretty solid for an HQ character. A Space Marine Epistolary with Jump Pack is 175 points for a worse statline and no Invulnerable. However, Sorcerers don't have Psychic Hoods.

Raptors (x6) - 210 Points
x2 Flamers
Aspiring Champion: Power Fist
Icon of Tzeentch

I put Flamers since I'm assuming they're for Assault, and you've already got Melta weapons and tank-busting covered elsewhere in the army. But, if you think you need Meltaguns, then that's fine too.

~200 points for six models, with an Invulnerable save, moving fast, with upgrades, sounds about right. Depends on your points limit.

400 points for seven models is definitely not right. Until you remember that one of those models is your HQ. The other thing you need to remember, is that this unit can shrug off Pie Plates, that counts for a lot on expensive units like this one.

[Winterwind]

Winterwind did the maths on it once (because he likes Berzerkers).

I just never say no to the opportunity of supplying people with numbers, when they ask for them.

I fully agree with your assessment, though - Berzerkers are nice and have never disappointed me, but Plague or Noise Marines usually perform better, in my experience.

I still use Berzerkers, cause, you know, Themed List.

And speaking of which, I'm really glad to see Tzeentch Raptors valued so highly here, because I was already afraid I'd gotten a completely useless point sink when I decided to fill out the Tzeentch-part of my four-god-army with them.

I remember what goes on in this thread. Because I love you. Like Papa Nurgle.

And we love you, too, in the most sanitary manner possible.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Speaking of Chaos.

Anyone have any good advice on what to take and what to avoid in a Nurgle themed list?

[Winterwind]

By 'Chaos', do you mean Chaos Daemons or Chaos Space Marines?

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Sorry should have specified

It's CSM

[Winterwind]

Well, in that case, Cheesegear already posted an analysis of Chaos Space Marine choices today, here.

Applied to Nurgle in particular (spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Show

If Special Characters are an option, Typhus is undeniably the second-best one this codex has to offer, and pretty strong as far as Special Characters go, period.

Nurgle Chaos Lords are a bit overpointed - they cost more than an Undivided Lord, yet will perform worse against many things (they will have an advantage at fighting Monstrous Creatures, but why not just shoot those dead instead?).

Nurgle Daemon Princes are great - they are fast (if you give them wings, and why wouldn't you give them wings?), durable (+1 Toughness cuts damage from S4 weapons in half in their case, and even helps a bit against plasma weapons), and you can give them either Warptime or Wind of Chaos to make them even nastier.

Nurgle Sorcerers are fine, too - as long as you pick some more powerful ability than Doombolt, it's pretty difficult to make a useless Chaos Sorcerer. Whether you should go with Nurgle's Rot or not is a different question; a lot of the time Warptime or Wind of Chaos will likely prove more useful. Though if you intend to send him into the midst of a horde, Nurgle's Rot can prove quite fun, too.

Chaos Terminators are fine; the icon of Nurgle may not benefit them quite as much as some other icons (because many AP2 weapons will also have enough Strength for the additional Toughness not to make any difference), but will help them against small-weapons fire (and forcing many saves with small weapons is a popular way of dealing with Terminators, too, after all), and it will ensure that if someone like Typhus or a Sorcerer in Termi-armour joins them, their increased Toughness doesn't go to waste. It will also help them a fair bit in close combat. So, worth it.
The question being how to use them. It's not unpopular for CSM to deepstrike a bunch of Terminators with combi-meltas to take out some vehicles or such - but if you do that, you likely will not want to attach any characters to them. Too many points not on the table for potentially too long.

Chosen... well, Chosen serve primarily as a poor man's version of Sternguard - infiltrate them close to the enemy with a bunch of meltaguns, try to kill some tank, and then probably die. The difference being that they have real meltaguns, not combi-meltas, so they stay useful for more than just the first turn... the problem being, they are unlikely to live to see a second turn. And I don't think an Icon of Nurgle is going to change this much - all it will do will be driving up the cost of the unit. By a lot, too. Probably better to stay away.

Possessed suck, and in my humble opinion an Icon of Khorne is the only way to make them... well, not stop sucking, but suck less. Maybe Slaanesh, too. Nurgle is neither. Hence, pass.

For troops, no debate. As many Plague Marines as possible. Six troops with 7 Plague Marines each would not be a bad idea.
Give them all powerfists - you already have bad initiative, so it doesn't matter - and don't be afraid to use a lot of plasmaguns. Plague Marines are the best plasmagun-users in the game - not only do they have their 3+ armour save if a plasmagun should Get Hot, they also have FNP, so you will hardly ever lose them to overheating. And it fits well with the entire "stand and keep shooting bolters" thing Plague Marines have going on anyway, further assisted by them having defensive grenades (so you don't have to worry about the opponent getting the charge because you chose to shoot).
Plague Marines might well be the best thing in the entire codex. Use them.

Bikes with the icon of Nurgle are interesting in that they get a whopping T4(6). But, they are so expensive there just is no way to make them cost-effective, in my humble opinion. Fun way to make the opponents panic, though.

Raptors - well, a small unit of Raptors with meltaguns can be quite useful to take out enemy tanks, and any icon that helps them live for that long can help. Not exactly the most cost-efficient way to go about this, though - a Rhino with a Plague Marine squad with meltaguns will probably prove more efficient most of the time. Not an inviable choice though, in my opinion.

Nurgle is probably the best-suited icon there is for Havocs, but you usually don't want Havocs anyway. And all other Heavy Support choices have no marks, so it's just what Cheesegear wrote once again - pretty much anything works, the most effectively if taken in triplicate. Three Vindicators with Daemonic Possession, three Defilers or nine Obliterators would be the most brutally effective choices. Of course, depending on your level of play, this might be utter overkill and earn you accusations of gouda...