Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[Szilard]

Doubt 'Time Crash' will be up tonight, tired. But I'll try.

Has anyone mentioned Time Crash is literally only five or ten minutes? Believe me, you'll have time.

[CurlyKitGirl]

The Nu Who Trek continues. And now, to boldly go where many have gone before. [*cue TNG theme (I love that theme song so much)*]

'Time Crash' (Children in Need minisode, 2007)
Same format as before.

Spoiler

Show

This is, if you can't already tell from the title, a special for the UK Children in Need telethon, and the minisode is only eight or so minutes long. At least, the video I've found of it is, and that includes at least a little bit of the show itself. Apparently the minisode proper is only about five minutes long.
Meaning for the first time ever this write up will be of a tolerable length!

On with the show:
If we remember from the last episode ('Last of the Time Lords) the Titanic has just crashed into the TARDIS. We're reminded of this because the episode starts with the very end of the last one.
So this is canon people.
Except now there's an awoogah! awoogah! alarm and things go all caer. The Doctor says, "What's all that about eh, eh? What's your problem then?" and starts fiddling around with the TARDIS.
And then!
DOCTOR!
IT'S FIVE!
This is awesome.
They bump into one another, and are politely British about it. Then they both do a double take.
Oh my giggy aunt! I can see the celery!
Oh, that's a fantastic double take. This is tricky, two Doctors. Well, Five and Ten then.
Ten: "What?"
Five: "What?"
Ten: "What."
Theme song time! It's Ten's theme. I wonder who the writer is, Peter Davison's name is in the opening credits! This couldn't get any be - Steven Moffat!
Okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm pausing this thing to tell you something.
We have a multi-Doctor minisode starring David Tennant (who by this point has, I believe, become the most popular Doctor of all Nu Who's run, and is one of the most popular Doctors ever) and Peter Davison (who is also a very popular Doctor), and is written by the Lord Steven of Moffat, aka, my most consistently favourite writer of Nu Who so far.
Okay. Now this thing couldn't get any better if it tried.
Five: "Who are you?"
Ten: "Oooooh, brilliant." [Oh sweet me, look at his face at 02.05, if that isn't the face of a fanboy meeting his hero I don't know what is. He looks like he's about to literally squeak with happiness and glomp Davison] "I mean, totally wrong, big emergency, whole universe could go bang in five minutes but, brilliant."
I want to interject a very, very shaky guess here. This not-quite trumpety background music, it sounds very synth. Not really at all like the usual stuff Gold gives us. Could this be an imitation of a Classic Who theme? I know I'm probably wrong, but it really doesn't feel very much like anything Gold's given us so far (now that I've started paying attention to it), so I'm gesticulating wildly in the dark with a sharpened implement.
Also, Tennant is so very happy right now, while Davison looks mildly indignant. And oh my, he has question marks on his collar.
Why can't we have goofy clothing like that now? And with the celery?
Five: "I'm the Doctor. Who are you?!" [Wow, he sounds surprisingly bad ass. Then again, he's the Doctor.]
Ten: "Yes you are. You are the Doctor." [And he's got the biggest gleegasmic grin of his face, it's even made his eyes go all wrinkly with happiness and gave him dimples. And that last line, this has got to be more tan Ten speaking. That or amazing acting. Or both.]
Five: "Yes I am, I'm the Doctor." [Tennant has such a cute happy face at 02.15! He's so definitely geeking out over this.]
Ten: "Oooh, good for you, Doctor." [Okay, I know there were other multi-Doctor stories. I've definitely seen DVDs for 'The Five Doctors' and 'The Three Doctors'; and according to a sneaky bit of Wikipedia cheating there's also 'The Eight Doctors', 'The Four Doctors', 'The Three Doctors', and a fair few others. But given some of these mention being audio dramas, I think a lot of them are EU.
However, I don't really know if all the Doctors geeked out like Ten did, but I'm going to assume this level of, to be blunt, fanboying, isn't a common thing.] "Good for brilliant old you."
Five: "Is there something wrong with you?" [Such an inquistive tone of voice!]
Ten: "Ooooooo, there goes the frowny face," [biggest grin yet] "I remember that one!" [This is just straight up fanboying now. I'm betting Five was The Doctor of at least one of Moffat or Tennant.] "Mind you, a bit saggier than I remember," [oh, lummie, Ten's massaging Five's cheeks, and Five basically looks like he's just realised he's in a TARDIS with a nutter. He also has very nice blue eyes] Ten proceeds to lampshade the twenty-one years between Five's last serial and this minisode. It's technoTreknobabble of the sort Moffat usually produces. Also, Five looks so befuddled when he then rubs his own cheeks, as if he's just realised that something's different with his own appearance.
This is all very fun and sweet!
Ten: "But never mind that" [After all, what's the end of the universe compared with fanboying over meeting a previous incarnation of yourself?] "Look at you! The hat, the coat, the crickety-cricket stuff" [okay, this is going to be five minutes of pure fanboying; it's already implied being a CiN minisode, but Ten casually dismissing the end of the universe also provide and in-universe reason for me to expect nothing but geekgasms and squee.] "The . . . stick of celery," I love how his voice just trails off, the grin dims (only slightly!) and he sounds more rueful and doubtful than ecstatic. He then proceeds to be excuse the celery, passing it off as a brave fashion choice. Well, yeah, celery on a lapel is slightly crazier than most Doctor's outfits.
Five: "Shut. Up!" [And don't mock the celery.] "There is something very wrong with the TARDIS and I've got to do something about it." [Aaaaaw, even back in Classic Who you could still ship TARDIS/Doctor.] "And it would help, it really would help, if there wasn't some skinny idiot ranting in my face about every single thing that happens to be in front of him!" [And if that isn't so sweet about how Five's getting all angry because he's being prevented from saving his TARDIS by a fanboy.]
Ten is just having so much fun, so. much. fun. "Ooooh! The back of my head! [...] Not something you see every day, the back of your own head."
Five then picks on the design of the TARDIS. I make a note to compare it to other TARDIS interiors later on. And then Ten has a massive geekgasm. It's 03.25. "Ooooh, and out they come! The brainy specs!" They're very nice too, little half-moon golden-rimmed ones. "You don't even need them! You just think they make you look very clever!" And now he's swinging around on his feet, hands in pockets, acting for all like a seven-year-old boy having just seen the most wonderful thing.
Then another awwwwooooooooh! awwwwooooooooh! alarm goes off! This one's "level five", whatever that means. "It's like two TARDISes have merged, but there's definitely only one present." Except Ten's swanning around all happy in the background because he knows exactly what's happened, after all, he remembers it happening to him right? Wibbly wobbly etc. The contrast between the pairs' expressions is a joy to behold; Five looks anxious and confused, Ten's eyebrows are merely raised as if to say 'oh, really now? Whatever could that mean?'
Five: "That's a paradox, could go on to blow a hole in the space-time continuum [...] the exact size of . . . Belgium." [That's a very rude word you know!] "That's a bit undramatic isn't it?" [But a funny reference to H2G2]
Ten offers Five his sonic, but Five "likes to go hands-free, like, 'look at me, I'm the Doctor, I can save the universe with a kettle and some string. And look at me, I'm wearing a vegetable." And if that didn't make you laugh you have no soul. Ten just can't let go of those years he spent wearing a vegetable. Even if it was an excellent piece of sartorial clothing.
Five: "Who are you?"
Ten: "Take a look."
Five: "Oh. Oh no, you're"
Ten: "Oh yes," [massive grin]
Five: "You're. Oh no,"
Ten:"Yes, here it comes, I am,"
Five: "You're a fan." [Hello fond mocking of the fanbase]
Ten: "Yeah," [check out Ten's face at 04.26, so goofy. Tehn it dawns on him what Five just said] "What?!" [Ah, there's Tennant's famous rising pitch for rising inflections.]
Having just summarily been dismissed as it's "two minutes to Belgium" [hehehehehehe!] which is "bad", Ten responds with outrage. After all, fan's are very important to Doctor Who.
Ten: "I'm not just a fan. I'm you!"
Five: "Okay, you're my biggest fan." [Well, he is you. But I think Tennant and/or Moffat are big fans too.] I love the little monologue that comes next, Five sums up exactly why Doctor Who is awesome, and Ten just shrugs his shoulders, smiles smugly and happily and nods along. "Start up their little groups, that LINDA lot," [AAAaaahhh! 'Love and Monsters', and how did Five know about them? I thought Ten was the first person to meet them.] "Are you of them?!" [Ooooh, burn.] Five's treating them like a bunch of stalkers, can't really fault him either. They are.
Ten: "No, listen to me, I'm you, you with a new face. Check out this bone structure Doctor, 'cause one day you're going to be shaving it."
And then the Cloister Bell goes off. From Five's expression we can tell this means stuff has really hit the fan now.
Ten: "Yup, right on time, that's my cue!" And he pulls some buttons. There's some no technoTreknobabble that boils down to 'I [Ten] forgot to put the shields back up, sorry', and then they blow up the TARDIS which makes the Time Vortex come back, but sounding like it's from a video game from the 1980s. With a hint of Doctor Who theme song.
Whiteout fade in. They're not dead. All's good.
Then follows technoTreknobabble that explains why they're not dead (equal and opposite forces cancel each other out) and this is what makes Five realise who Ten is.
Also, Five saved his own life because Ten remembered being Five watching Ten doing what he just did to save Five and his [Ten's] own life. Which meant that this could all - oh, insert timey wimey here.
Ten: "Back to long ago!" [Only twenty-one or so years!] He then throw out some Classic Who references to determine where in his own timeline he [Five] is, you seen Tegan [an Assistant maybe?], Cybermen on Mara, and Time Lords in funny hats, and the Master; oh, he just showed up again. [muffled bit]." [Wait. If Five knows the Master shows up again when he's in Ten's form, then how did he not know the Master had survived the Time War, meaning the DOctor should have always known he was never the last of the Time Lords, although everyone else would have believed he was. So the Doctor [possibly Eight and definitely Nine and Ten] should have set up contingency plans for when the Master came back, especially when Ten realised he was Ten. Because he knew he would even though they'd ended the Time War and so - aaargh. My brain. It's a CiN special and all I need do is invoke 'Blink' to explain it all.]
Five: "Does he still have that rubbish beard?"
Ten: "No. No beard this time. Well, a wife." [HA! Calling the Wife the beard; as if the master has something to hide regards his sexuality . . . chalk another point up to the 'Doctor/Master or any Doctor/Male person or Master/Male person' arguments.]
Five: "Hello, I seem to be off. What can I say, thank you, Doctor."
Ten: "Thank you."
Five: "You're very welcome." He fades away.
Ten: "You know, I lvoed being you," He gives the hat back to Five. "Back when I started at the very beginning" [One!] "I was always trying to be old and grumpy and important like you do when you're young.
"And then I was you." [And the ways he says those words, combined with that face; it's official. Tennant love Five.] "Always dashing about, playing cricket, my voice going all squeaky when I shouted, I still do that, the vioce thing, I got that from you [Ten was inspired by Five!] "Oh, and the trainers, and," he dons the specs "snap! 'Cause you know what Doctor, you were my Doctor." [Ten did not say that last bit, Tennant did. Anyone who says otherwise is looking at a screen full of wrong.] Five doffs his hat to Ten.
Five: "To days to come."
Ten: "All my love to long ago." [Aaaaaaaaawwwwwwww!]
Five fades away and Ten's all smiling nostalgically, and then from the ether Five chimes in "Oh Doctor, remember to put your shields up," as Ten flicks a switch. Presumably the shields.
But not in time as the Titanic just crashed through the TARDIS!
And we're back where we started! But this time we had five minutes of fun, giggly, fanboy dreams.

Preview thoughts: No preview I'm afraid. Just the title: 'Voyage of the Damned'.

Best Moment: All of it. No seriously. But any time Ten/nant got to fanboy was wonderful in so many ways.

Worst Moment: It ended. That or the five seconds Martha was onscreen.

Best Special Effect: Five's fading in and out.

Worst Special Effect: The effect when the TARDISes crashed into each other. And only because it was the only other special effect.

Best Actor: Both! How can I not love them both. Five came back, and was the Doctor. And Ten was there, and was happy and faboyishly geeky and was the Doctor.

Worst Actor: None! Unless you count Tennant being Tennant, not Ten; which I don't.

Number of Times the Doctor (Ten) Geeked Out Or Had A Fanboy Moment:
The whole thing. Or: fifty-four.

Fanboy Level (both in- and extrauniverse:
Through the roof and beyond. Both in and -extra-universe. Extra-universe counts for both in-universe (as in Tennant talking to Davison) and for the audience watching two Doctors on screen together for the first time in a long time.

Thoughts overall?
Awesome.
C'est tout. I need say no more.
It's a multi-Doctor minisode written by my most consistently favourite long term writer; it stars a Classic Doctor and a Nu Doctor doing Doctorly things together in the TARDIS.
It's all non-stop fun, sly jokes about the show, its history and the fans and just a joy to watch from start to finish.
Plus it's five or six minutes long. What's not to love?

EDIT:
@^: Are you sure? I don't know if I'll have the strength or energy . . .

[turkishproverb]

Heh. love the summary, even if your transcription misses a few great gags (Five says "I'm very welcome" rather than "Your")

[Sanguine]

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Why can't we have goofy clothing like that now? And with the celery?

I don't know. Maybe if we're lucky Twelve will have a nice goofy costume. If not necessarily Celery goofy at the very least ridiculously long scarf goofy.

[Okay, I know there were other multi-Doctor stories. I've definitely seen DVDs for 'The Five Doctors' and 'The Three Doctors'; and according to a sneaky bit of Wikipedia cheating there's also 'The Eight Doctors', 'The Four Doctors', 'The Three Doctors', and a fair few others. But given some of these mention being audio dramas, I think a lot of them are EU.
However, I don't really know if all the Doctors geeked out like Ten did, but I'm going to assume this level of, to be blunt, fanboying, isn't a common thing.]

I know "the Three Doctors", "The Five Doctors", and "the Two Doctors" are all from the main show. As for geeking out, I only saw the Three Doctors but in that one they couldn't stand each other.



Don't know about Moffat but Tennant grew up watching Davison* and he became an actor just so he could one day play the Doctor. So I would say he is very much a fan.

*Also Tom Baker.

[Aaaaaw, even back in Classic Who you could still ship TARDIS/Doctor.]

I had this exact same thought when watching the Ribos Operation, specifically the scene where he meets Romana.

Four: A hole. [Sticks pinky finger briefly in hole] What's a hole doing in my TARDIS?!
Romana: I put it there.
Four: You...you put a hole in my T... [rubs TARDIS controls soothingly] Never mind, old girl. Never mind. I'll soon have it fixed. [Kisses controls]

[And if that isn't so sweet about how Five's getting all angry because he's being prevented from saving his TARDIS by a fanboy.]

Quite. But then I'm a huge Doctor/Tardis shipper.

you seen Tegan [an Assistant maybe?],

Yes she is. Though if that article is correct she was around when Four regenerated into Five so it's a kind of silly question.

[Ten did not say that last bit, Tennant did. Anyone who says otherwise is looking at a screen full of wrong.]

Always how I saw it, even before I knew he watched Five as a kid.

It's a multi-Doctor minisode

Gotta love multiple Doctors.

written by my most consistently favourite long term writer;

Hmm not sure I agree here. But to be certain I'd have to go back and check the writers of every episode of Nu Who.

it stars a Classic Doctor and a Nu Doctor doing Doctorly things together in the TARDIS.

Yes it is.

What's not to love?

The fact that it ended? But well if it didn't end I wouldn't be able to watch it multiple times. So nothing I guess.

[The Big Dice]

Au contraire. It makes perfect sense. If you view time as personal rather than linear (which I think is part of the premise in a time-travel series).

The doctor got out of the trap because he went back in time to arrange for himself to get out of the trap. He is then reminded to do this so that he can get out of the trap.

It is perfectly logical. Circular logic, but it follows itself to the conclusion.

It can come right of the blue though (and in this case it does) but that's because the foreshadowing have a tendency to happen -after- the conclusion. But that's part of the paradox.

All in all... bootstrap paradoxes can be beautiful pieces of logic. Certainly much better than their ugly cousins "going back in time to change an event".

Except to arrange for himself to get out of the trap, he had to get out of the trap so he could arrange for himself to get out of it. There is an unresolvable paradox right there.

Or, a perfect example of a deus ex machina, with the Doctor as the deus.

[Thufir]

'Time Crash' (Children in Need minisode, 2007)
Same format as before.

Spoiler

Show

[This is just straight up fanboying now. I'm betting Five was The Doctor of at least one of Moffat or Tennant.]

Tennant. I don't think Moffat's ever specified a particular Doctor as 'his' Doctor, but I think Tennant did say Five was his on a Confidential before this point (Might have been the one for Human Nature, given his cricket ball heroics in that episode?)

"Start up their little groups, that LINDA lot," [AAAaaahhh! 'Love and Monsters', and how did Five know about them? I thought Ten was the first person to meet them.]

Well, presumably so, bu the Doctor's a time-traveller. He's probably been to the 21st century before, he knows about the internet, etc.

and then they blow up the TARDIS which makes the Time Vortex come back, but sounding like it's from a video game from the 1980s. With a hint of Doctor Who theme song.

Oh, that reminds me, I forgot to mention about the drumming in the Master's head - you may note it's the same rhythm as the bass in the Who theme.

[Wait. If Five knows the Master shows up again when he's in Ten's form, then how did he not know the Master had survived the Time War, meaning the Doctor should have always known he was never the last of the Time Lords, although everyone else would have believed he was.

Yeah, that one bothers me as well.

I don't know. Maybe if we're lucky Twelve will have a nice goofy costume. If not necessarily Celery goofy at the very least ridiculously long scarf goofy.

Is a cool bowtie not goofy enough for you?

I had this exact same thought when watching the Ribos Operation, specifically the scene where he meets Romana.

Four: A hole. [Sticks pinky finger briefly in hole] What's a hole doing in my TARDIS?!
Romana: I put it there.
Four: You...you put a hole in my T... [rubs TARDIS controls soothingly] Never mind, old girl. Never mind. I'll soon have it fixed. [Kisses controls]

And of course we've also in New Who had Sarah-Jane mention him stroking bits of the TARDIS, and she was from around the same era.

Quite. But then I'm a huge Doctor/Tardis shipper.

It is the best ship.

[Mauve Shirt]

Going back in time to change an event makes even less sense than a Bootstrap Paradox. When I try to count all of the alternate timelines in Terminator, including the TV show, my head a'splodes. It's nigh impossible without confusing oneself.

It is the best ship.

One of the best lines in "The Doctor's Wife" was Amy's "Did you wish really hard?"

[Aux-Ash]

Except to arrange for himself to get out of the trap, he had to get out of the trap so he could arrange for himself to get out of it. There is an unresolvable paradox right there.

Unless you account for timetravel. It's not an unresolvable paradox, since the reason he gets out is because he lets himself out (indirectly). It's what in biomedicine would be refered to as a positive feedback-loop. It gets resolved because he resolves it.
It only becomes unresolvable if what he does prevents what he will do, not if it enables what he will do.

Or in crude terms: future doctor saves past doctor and then proceeds to do other things. It is possible because past doctor will become future doctor.

Or, a perfect example of a deus ex machina, with the Doctor as the deus.

Are we talking the bootstraps paradox in general here or just this particular one?

If the former, then this series (the new version anyways) simply lives off that paradox. Bad Wolf is the first one that rears itself. Where Rose spreads those letters across time and space, thus inspiring herself to spread those letters. Blink is built on this. And You Are Not Alone also invoked it.
Sure, two of those are more pieces of the puzzle rather than solutions.
Torchwood Institute is a form of it.

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Technically the Fires of Pompey episode also invokes it. And Forest of the Dead/Silence in the Library. Mentions of DoctorDonna and how the universe seems to focus around her too is one.

And the only real way to avoid this paradox is simply to avoid known history all together. As soon as you interact with anything in your own past, you will be invoking this paradox (or at least if it affects your recollection of things).

If the latter... the definition of a deus ex machina is the unpredictable (and/or farfetched) solution, right?
Because this was foreshadowed. River did leave her vortex-generator there. We have seen travels back to one's own past several times throughout the series. Rory remains alive to be there to save him.
In Time of the Angels when he comforts Amy he's wearing his (old) jacket, despite that he lost it (while that certainly happened a bit later, it was a sign he was travelling back into his own time).
Heh... River even uses this sort of trick to get his attention both in Time of the Angels and in the very beginning of the episode itself.
Just like Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Mr. Saxon, DoctorDonna/missing planets it was something that was more or less hinted at throughout the season.

As an aside though... doesn't this series (the modern iteration anyways), just like Sherlock Holmes stories, sort of live on deus ex machinas anyways? The doctor do rather often pull a solution right out of his hat. Often using information that was either just barely hinted or knowledge that only he knows.

[Thufir]

One of the best lines in "The Doctor's Wife" was Amy's "Did you wish really hard?"

One of the best lines in that episode was all of it.
But particularly everything including or related to Sexy (You bet it's her name!)

As an aside though... doesn't this series (the modern iteration anyways), just like Sherlock Holmes stories, sort of live on deus ex machinas anyways? The Doctor does rather often pull a solution right out of his hat. Often using information that was either just barely hinted or knowledge that only he knows.

[Citation needed]

Also, it's not really a Deus ex Machina if it's just using things we already knew about, which the characters have been working on through the episode. Deus ex machina implies that it really just comes more or less out of nowhere.

[The Big Dice]

Unless you account for timetravel. It's not an unresolvable paradox, since the reason he gets out is because he lets himself out (indirectly). It's what in biomedicine would be refered to as a positive feedback-loop. It gets resolved because he resolves it.
It only becomes unresolvable if what he does prevents what he will do, not if it enables what he will do.

Time travel does not account for it. Inside the Doctor's own time line, he is locked in the Pandorica, then he isn't. The way he was let out is by him being on the outside after he was locked in, sonic screwdriver and all. It's not a paradox, follow the Doctor's timeline. It's a case of he went from being prisoner to being free with no need to be released. The Pandorica was only opened to let Amy in.

Or in crude terms: future doctor saves past doctor and then proceeds to do other things. It is possible because past doctor will become future doctor.

How does current Doctor get from inside the Pandorica to outside the Pandorica? Future!Doctor lets him out, that's how. Or enables Rory to let him out, which is the same thing, really. Except to get the sonic to let him out, Rory has to let him out by using the sonic.

Can you see the logical problem here? In the Doctor's timeline, it's not possible for him to let himself out.

If the former, then this series (the new version anyways) simply lives off that paradox. Bad Wolf is the first one that rears itself. Where Rose spreads those letters across time and space, thus inspiring herself to spread those letters. Blink is built on this. And You Are Not Alone also invoked it.
Sure, two of those are more pieces of the puzzle rather than solutions.
Torchwood Institute is a form of it.

Spoiler

Show

Technically the Fires of Pompey episode also invokes it. And Forest of the Dead/Silence in the Library. Mentions of DoctorDonna and how the universe seems to focus around her too is one.

Except this time, the solution to the problem is the paradox.

It's like Steven Moffat said to himself, "I'm sick of people accusing my friend Russel of using a deus ex machina. I'll show them what a deus ex machina is really like!"

[Aux-Ash]

[Citation needed]

Also, it's not really a Deus ex Machina if it's just using things we already knew about, which the characters have been working on through the episode. Deus ex machina implies that it really just comes more or less out of nowhere.

Such as when they invoke knowledge the audience knows nothing about?

I seem to recall reading a Sherlock Holmes short-story (unfortunantely I cannot recall which one. I have a vague recollection of something involving jewels) where he solved the mystery by pointing out something he had noticed. Of course he revealing this was the very first indication of that being the case. I checked. Twice.
Wouldn't that qualify? (and if not, then I don't see how deus ex machina ever happens in doctor who since there's always some clue)

Naturally it was just one story. Perhaps the others aren't like that.

[BRC]

Such as when they invoke knowledge the audience knows nothing about?

I seem to recall reading a Sherlock Holmes short-story (unfortunantely I cannot recall which one. I have a vague recollection of something involving jewels) where he solved the mystery by pointing out something he had noticed. Of course he revealing this was the very first indication of that being the case. I checked. Twice.
Wouldn't that qualify? (and if not, then I don't see how deus ex machina ever happens in doctor who since there's always some clue)

Naturally it was just one story. Perhaps the others aren't like that.

No, that happens many, many times throughout the stories. But that's not a Deus Ex Machina, that's just Holmes being smarter than Watson, and being kind of a jerk who likes to make himself seem even smarter by not telling people his thoughts until he is absolutely sure, then acting like it's the simplest, most obvious thing in the world.

Doyle did not feel that a mystery author was under the obligation to give the readers all the clues so they could figure it out before the characters did. The Stories are from Watson's perspective. Authors are not required to telegraph everything they do.

[Aux-Ash]

Time travel does not account for it. Inside the Doctor's own time line, he is locked in the Pandorica, then he isn't. The way he was let out is by him being on the outside after he was locked in, sonic screwdriver and all. It's not a paradox, follow the Doctor's timeline. It's a case of he went from being prisoner to being free with no need to be released. The Pandorica was only opened to let Amy in.

Ah, you assume that there's only one doctor at any point in time then? That there's no past doctor or future doctor, just the present one? Then I'd see how it doesn't make sense.

I don't view time that way. From my point of view, if you look at time as a whole... all the doctors past, present and future will be doing their adventures... concurrently (just at different points in time).

Words seem to be failing me to explain this. Tempus doesn't really account for timetravel.

How does current Doctor get from inside the Pandorica to outside the Pandorica? Future!Doctor lets him out, that's how. Or enables Rory to let him out, which is the same thing, really. Except to get the sonic to let him out, Rory has to let him out by using the sonic.

Yep. Pretty much.

Can you see the logical problem here? In the Doctor's timeline, it's not possible for him to let himself out.

Assuming he cannot (as in physically impossible) cross his own timeline.

The conclusion is very logical really, if you accept the assumption that he could go back into his own timeline (thus ensuring there's two doctors existing at the same point in time).

Except this time, the solution to the problem is the paradox.

Ah, so this particular case then? Got it.

Out of curiosity,... how do you feel about the Time Crash, short?

No, that happens many, many times throughout the stories. But that's not a Deus Ex Machina, that's just Holmes being smarter than Watson, and being kind of a jerk who likes to make himself seem even smarter by not telling people his thoughts until he is absolutely sure, then acting like it's the simplest, most obvious thing in the world.

Doyle did not feel that a mystery author was under the obligation to give the readers all the clues so they could figure it out before the characters did. The Stories are from Watson's perspective. Authors are not required to telegraph everything they do.

Ah, my apologies then.

[Sanguine]

Is a cool bowtie not goofy enough for you?

Cool color-changing bowtie is a very nice step up in the goofiness category and I take it as a very good sign. However it's not quite on the level of a decorative vegetable or even Fours crazy long scarf for that matter. Now if they had let him keep his fez...

And of course we've also in New Who had Sarah-Jane mention him stroking bits of the TARDIS, and she was from around the same era.

Very true. But my example had an actual kiss in it which is why I chose it over that.

It is the best ship.

Yes, yes it is. Closely followed by Toph/Aang, but then that's not Doctor Who.

One of the best lines in "The Doctor's Wife" was Amy's "Did you wish really hard?"

One of the best lines in that episode was all of it.
But particularly everything including or related to Sexy (You bet it's her name!)

Yes that episode was indeed brilliant. *Squee* I got Neil Gaiman in my Doctor Who! It also is full of excellent material for shipping Doctor/TARDIS(Sexy).

[Mauve Shirt]

One of the best lines in that episode was all of it.

Ok, fair enough.

[Alchemistmerlin]

After having watched The Doctor's Wife and some of the...interesting revelations there in I have come to 1 very simple conclusion:

The next doctor should be a woman

Spoiler

Show

This is based entirely on the statements by The Doctor in the beginning of the episode about how Time Lords can change gender during regeneration. I imagine it would create quite a shake up, a lot of fanger, vaguely sexist (or blatantly sexist) online arguments, and it could be handled very poorly. But, if handled well, it could be an amazing way to play with the character for a while.

[turkishproverb]

After having watched The Doctor's Wife and some of the...interesting revelations there in I have come to 1 very simple conclusion:

The next doctor should be a woman

Spoiler

Show

This is based entirely on the statements by The Doctor in the beginning of the episode about how Time Lords can change gender during regeneration. I imagine it would create quite a shake up, a lot of fanger, vaguely sexist (or blatantly sexist) online arguments, and it could be handled very poorly. But, if handled well, it could be an amazing way to play with the character for a while.

Shame Barbara Benedetti is dead, but I think Johanna Lumley could play a similar doctor.

[The Big Dice]

Ah, you assume that there's only one doctor at any point in time then? That there's no past doctor or future doctor, just the present one? Then I'd see how it doesn't make sense.

I don't view time that way. From my point of view, if you look at time as a whole... all the doctors past, present and future will be doing their adventures... concurrently (just at different points in time).

Words seem to be failing me to explain this. Tempus doesn't really account for timetravel.

Put it this way. I've been watching the show for literally as long as I can remember. I vaguely remember mummies, Morbius falling off a cliff, freaky golden faced robots and a terrifying giant rat*. I vividly remember the opening titles. It's safe to say I'm familiar with the show and how it works. And I think it's safe to say that The Big Bang handled the Doctor and his own time lines worse than the Three Doctors (which implies that meeting yourself is a Bad Idea even if not impossible), worse than Mawdryn Undead, when the Brigadier meets an earlier version of himself, and worse than Day of the Daleks, which is all about a predestination paradox.

The thing with The Big Bang is this: The Doctor gets locked in the escape proof Pandorica at the end of the previous episode. He escapes by Rory using the sonic screwdriver. Which was in his pocket when the escape proof prison was locked. After being released from the escape proof prison, he travels back in time to give Rory the sonic screwdriver.

There's your paradox. He couldn't have escaped to travel back in time because he was locked up in an escape proof prison. It is a very literal deus ex machina situation, unlike the ones that Russel T Davies gets accused of using.

And that moment was very annoying to me. It was sloppy, it reeked of the Curse of Fatal Death. Which at least has the excuse of being a parody. In general, it was lazy writing. After all, it's a kid's show so it doesn't need to make sense, right?

Out of curiosity,... how do you feel about the Time Crash, short?

See, that's two Doctors meeting at very different points in their time stream and using a cheeky paradox to get out of trouble. It was also a 5 minute special that's mostly a dvd extra now.

But the problem is, Steven Moffat used time travel based foreknowledge in The Empty Child and Silence in the Library as well as Time Crash. He used time travel paradox shenanigans heavily in Curse of Fatal Death, Blink, The Big Bang, A Christmas Carol, The Impossible Astronaut, the Space/Time Children in Need special and for the (underwhelming) reveal about River Song's parents. In other words, he's basically using the same gags over and over and it's gotten a bit repetitive.

*In my defense, I was very young when the rather cute rat freaked me out.

[Dienekes]

Yeah Big Dice you've said all that before. However the circular vision of time is not particularly knew to science fiction or the show. In science fiction Terminator 2 gave us that in order for Skynet to be created it had to send back a Terminator which was only done because Skynet was created. Or the better example, John Conner couldn't be born without John Conner sending his father back in time.

Just looking at new Who, this view of a circular timeline without beginning or end is used, from off the top of my head, in Blink and Time Crash. Interestingly both are written by Moffat, which seems to indicate that he has a liking for this version of time travel.

Now is it a deuce ex machima? Oh yeah, definitely. However, so is opening the Tardis meaning the destruction of the entire Dalek fleet, and Tinkerbell!Doctor.

Now by luck (or boredom) I happen to have just watched both finales in question, 3 and 5. Of the two, I prefer 5's resolution to 3's, though I prefer 3's just about everything else. The Master was a great villain, seeing Claudius take a place in Who was great fun.

Now dramatically, both conclusions are just about rock bottom. However there are more than one means to look into the resolution, dramatically, humorously, and so forth. And that ultimately is what separates the two. Tinkerbell!Doctor was trying to be a big dramatic moment, it was not trying to add humor, or anything other than high drama. It failed at that so hard it caused me to laugh. The Doctor's use of time travel to get out of the Pandorica was not trying to be drama, Rory crying over Pond was, but then the Doctor appears out of nowhere wearing a fez and waving a broom around. High drama just soared out the window to be replaced by humor, and it was funny. That is why most folks (not all, as you are the prime example of) find the Pandorica resolution subpar but ok and the defeat of the Master as absolutely infuriating/unintentionally hilarious.

Or at least that's my view on the matter.

[Kato]

Now dramatically, both conclusions are just about rock bottom. However there are more than one means to look into the resolution, dramatically, humorously, and so forth. And that ultimately is what separates the two. Tinkerbell!Doctor was trying to be a big dramatic moment, it was not trying to add humor, or anything other than high drama. It failed at that so hard it caused me to laugh. The Doctor's use of time travel to get out of the Pandorica was not trying to be drama, Rory crying over Pond was, but then the Doctor appears out of nowhere wearing a fez and waving a broom around. High drama just soared out the window to be replaced by humor, and it was funny. That is why most folks (not all, as you are the prime example of) find the Pandorica resolution subpar but ok and the defeat of the Master as absolutely infuriating/unintentionally hilarious.

Or at least that's my view on the matter.

QFT. (I usually don't do that but now I feel I should. Maybe not Truth but 'reflecting my view and putting it in words very well')
Well, mostly. I didn't think anything but the Tinkerbell/Jesus/whatever scene was supbar and really damaged how good most of the... well, maybe not THAT episode but the second half of the season overall was. It just failed for me at what it obviously tried to be. Doctor with a Fez a weird behavior was supposed to make people laugh, Last of the Timelords was supposed to make people... dunno, fell in awe? I'm not sure... but surely not laugh at the screen, what I think quite a few did then.

[Androgeus]

He used time travel paradox shenanigans heavily in Curse of Fatal Death

Just to be my usual pedantic self, but I don't remember any paradoxes in Curse of Fatal Death.
Also I want more Rowan Atkinson Doctor.

[Mercenary Pen]

@ CurlyKitGirl: Definitely write up Genesis of the Daleks, it'll be good to have a fresh insight into that one- if only because it is a classic.

[Reverent-One]

Now dramatically, both conclusions are just about rock bottom. However there are more than one means to look into the resolution, dramatically, humorously, and so forth. And that ultimately is what separates the two. Tinkerbell!Doctor was trying to be a big dramatic moment, it was not trying to add humor, or anything other than high drama. It failed at that so hard it caused me to laugh. The Doctor's use of time travel to get out of the Pandorica was not trying to be drama, Rory crying over Pond was, but then the Doctor appears out of nowhere wearing a fez and waving a broom around. High drama just soared out the window to be replaced by humor, and it was funny. That is why most folks (not all, as you are the prime example of) find the Pandorica resolution subpar but ok and the defeat of the Master as absolutely infuriating/unintentionally hilarious.

Or at least that's my view on the matter.

After reading this discussion, I've been thinking about the season 5 finale some more, and the more I think of it, the less I like it. Not based on it's use of humor, or drama, but basic writing skills. It just doesn't make any sense. The alliance between the big bads is the most basic issue, as the Daleks working with anyone is...questionable at best, but still, it shows how awesome the doctor is so let's handwave that.

Now, how does the doctor get out of the super secure prison, constructed by this alliance of his greatest foes? Simple time travel shenanigans. This wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that the Daleks were part of the alliance. They're a time traveling race that's defeated the Time Lords themselves, and since they're building a prison for one (especially one like the doctor), time travel shenanigans should be one of the first things they'd try to keep a lock on. But they fail utterly. How pathetic.

Secondly, how is this prison opened up? With the doctor's sonic screwdriver, one of his most basic tools that every member of the alliance should at least have a passing knowledge of, if not detailed info. Yet Rory doesn't even need to "recombobulate the thingamajig" or anything, it opens it without any problem.

This is the best super escape proof prison this ultimate alliance can up with, despite having plenty of time to create it and lure the doctor into it? A prison that can't even handle his most basic strategies? It makes them (especially the Daleks) look stupid and useless. They're not just holding the idiot ball, they're living inside of it. How in the world did the Daleks win the Time War? The Doctor should have been able to handle them single-handedly, to say nothing of the rest of the Time Lords. It's at least the third time in that season that Moffat made good, powerful enemy pathetic to keep the doctor and his friends alive. Is the pixie-dust in Season 3 cheesy? Certainly, but at least it's based on something previously established in the plotline and makes some logical sense (Doctor Who-logic sense, anyway).

[Thufir]

Now, how does the Doctor get out of the super secure prison, constructed by this alliance of his greatest foes? Simple time travel shenanigans. This wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that the Daleks were part of the alliance. They're a time traveling race that's defeated the Time Lords themselves, and since they're building a prison for one (especially one like the Doctor), time travel shenanigans should be one of the first things they'd try to keep a lock on. But they fail utterly. How pathetic.

The bolded is not the case. Also, time travel shenanigans are probably something they could have done something to counteract had it not been for the slight issue of the universe ceasing to have ever existed so they weren't there to counteract shenanigans, or equally, guard the Pandorica.

Secondly, how is this prison opened up? With the Doctor's sonic screwdriver, one of his most basic tools that every member of the alliance should at least have a passing knowledge of, if not detailed info. Yet Rory doesn't even need to "recombobulate the thingamajig" or anything, it opens it without any problem.

It's easy to open from the outside. The screwdriver was useless to the Doctor while he was inside, and if the Alliance hadn't been erased from existence they could've shot dead anyone who came near the Pandorica with a screwdriver.

How in the world did the Daleks win the Time War? The Doctor should have been able to handle them single-handedly

Um... he did. And the Time Lords.

[Androgeus]

Also remember that this are the new paradigm daleks, all that space in the back is so they can store more idiot balls. (the new paradigm are fine from the front or back, just not the side)

[Sanguine]

It's easy to open from the outside. The screwdriver was useless to the Doctor while he was inside, and if the Alliance hadn't been erased from existence they could've shot dead anyone who came near the Pandorica with a screwdriver.

I doubt they were planning on staying there forever; they might have been but I find it it unlikely. So assuming they weren't planning on staying there forever they should have made it so it's not easy to open from the outside or the inside. Deadlock the thing, it's established that the Screwdriver can't open a deadlock seal and it's also established that Sontarans have access to deadlocking technology. Heck even if they were planning on staying there forever it would still be smart to plan for the chance that they are somehow bypassed. Dalek's are supposed to be super-geniuses right, they should see the need for the plan to cover every contingency; it's not like the Doctor hasn't beaten every member of the alliance before.

[Reverent-One]

The bolded is not the case. Also, time travel shenanigans are probably something they could have done something to counteract had it not been for the slight issue of the universe ceasing to have ever existed so they weren't there to counteract shenanigans, or equally, guard the Pandorica.

I did forget to consider the new information on the Time War we learn in the End of Time, so yes, the Time Lords would have won, but they would have had to enact a doomsday scenario and destroy all of time to do so. That the Time Lords couldn't defeat them though more conventional time travel techniques isn't much(read: at all) a blow to the Dalek's capabilities, so I'll stand by my point. Especially when we consider the fact that whatever the Doctor did to end the Time War nailed the Time Lords pretty well, but the Daleks? The handled it faaaar better, and are still a threat to the universe at large while the Time Lords are trapped in a Time lock.

It's easy to open from the outside. The screwdriver was useless to the Doctor while he was inside, and if the Alliance hadn't been erased from existence they could've shot dead anyone who came near the Pandorica with a screwdriver.

What Sanguine said.

Um... he did. And the Time Lords.

He was able to stop them through a plan that wiped out his own people as well. If the Dalek's were as inept as they were in the Season 5 finale, the Time War shouldn't have been a war in the first place. The Doctor should have been able to stop them from the beginning with one hand tied behind his back and then stroll back to Gallifrey for tea.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, the only time the Daleks weren't shown as inept that I can remember in the series was their original appearance in Dalek and in the season 1 finale, in which they were instead insane.

In Doomsday they had one glaringly obvious weakness and refused to protect it, at all.
In Evolution of the Daleks, Dalek Caan failed to use a kill switch he had until all his allies were dead.
In Journey's End, while not completely inept the Supreme Daleks descending only to be blown up instantly was pretty dumb.
In Victory of the Daleks the Dalek warship was beaten back by... WWII fighter planes.

And in every instance, why the hell don't the Daleks just blow up the planet? They have the firepower, or at least had on multiple occasions.

That said you make a very good point about the episode.

[grolim]

After reading this discussion, I've been thinking about the season 5 finale some more, and the more I think of it, the less I like it. Not based on it's use of humor, or drama, but basic writing skills. It just doesn't make any sense. The alliance between the big bads is the most basic issue, as the Daleks working with anyone is...questionable at best, but still, it shows how awesome the doctor is so let's handwave that.

Now, how does the doctor get out of the super secure prison, constructed by this alliance of his greatest foes? Simple time travel shenanigans. This wouldn't be a big deal, if not for the fact that the Daleks were part of the alliance. They're a time traveling race that's defeated the Time Lords themselves, and since they're building a prison for one (especially one like the doctor), time travel shenanigans should be one of the first things they'd try to keep a lock on. But they fail utterly. How pathetic.

Secondly, how is this prison opened up? With the doctor's sonic screwdriver, one of his most basic tools that every member of the alliance should at least have a passing knowledge of, if not detailed info. Yet Rory doesn't even need to "recombobulate the thingamajig" or anything, it opens it without any problem.

This is the best super escape proof prison this ultimate alliance can up with, despite having plenty of time to create it and lure the doctor into it? A prison that can't even handle his most basic strategies? It makes them (especially the Daleks) look stupid and useless. They're not just holding the idiot ball, they're living inside of it. How in the world did the Daleks win the Time War? The Doctor should have been able to handle them single-handedly, to say nothing of the rest of the Time Lords. It's at least the third time in that season that Moffat made good, powerful enemy pathetic to keep the doctor and his friends alive. Is the pixie-dust in Season 3 cheesy? Certainly, but at least it's based on something previously established in the plotline and makes some logical sense (Doctor Who-logic sense, anyway).

Who says they wanted to keep him in there? The Tardis was blowing up AS they put him in the pandorica. They may have thought locking him up would be enough since as far as they knew ONLY he could pilot the Tardis but he isn't and wasn't in it. So as they put him in it everything was wiped out before they could do anything else, and the only things left in existence in the universe was the Earth.
Or since they are so smart, maybe they figured out he COULD escape and would stop the universe from exploding. And maybe they figured out doing so would leave him stuck on the other side of the crack and that they would be in a universe without the Doctor and could take over easily then. And they let it happen but didn't figure out that the Doctor would be brought back.
If that were the case, the Daleks weren't working WITH anyone else, they were sabotaging everyone else to leave the Doctor a way to escape that would save the universe but take himself out at the same time. Now of course that is probably FAR more credit than any other plan they have had since they returned. But since every time they have tried to take out the Doctor they have failed, why not try to arrange a scenario where the Doctor does it to himself.
As far as Rory not having to reset it, the Doctor gave it to him preset.

[factotum]

The alliance between the big bads is the most basic issue, as the Daleks working with anyone is...questionable at best, but still, it shows how awesome the doctor is so let's handwave that.

Actually, that's one of the things that annoyed me most about the episode, mainly because the "Alliance of Evil" or whatever you want to call it included the Judoon, who were introduced as a sort of galactic police force--why are they joining up with the Daleks and the Sontarans again?