"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[Douglas]

Actually, while the heading of the section is "humanoids and class levels" the actual text of the rule is that "creatures" with 1 HD or less lose the racial hit die when advancing by class. "Creatures" means everything regardless of type.

[Taelas]

So they're just repeating themselves in the humanoid type description? Great.

That paragraph makes even LESS sense.

Their example is a GOBLIN who takes a level in sorcerer, and loses the benefits of the humanoid type. Goblins are humanoids, and by the rules for the humanoid type for 1HD creatures does not get any of the benefits of the type.

To say this is a mess is an understatement.

[Arbane]

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's total darkness, so if you don't have darkvision, you're blind, so your book gains a 50% miss chance, and you can't make Spot checks to read it.

Thank you, E. Groucho Gygax.

[Venger]

That reminds me.

Aasimar (and Tiefling) are broken.

You do not exchange your RHD unless you are Humanoid. (Even Monstrous Humanoid doesn't, though there aren't any 1 HD Monstrous Humanoids in the MM. Maybe there is in one of the others, haven't checked.)

The Aasimar and Tiefling examples in the MM are 1st-level warriors, yet they only have 1 HD.

Since they don't exchange any RHD they might have for class levels, they have to have 0 RHD, which doesn't make any sense (which is probably why Humanoids have the whole "exchange" line to begin with).

Pixies have the exchange line too, which is doubly weird, since both grigs and nixies, the other two sprites, have 1 RHD also (actually, grigs only have ½, and how does that work? Do they get half as much of everything, or only hit points?) and have level adjustments, so they can take class levels. So a 1st level nixie rogue has 2 HD, but a 1st level pixie rogue has only one? What? THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

EDIT: Oh, and a pixie Barbarian forgets how to read after taking a level in the class.

well, they are rather broken, but it's mainly for alter self abuse due to their outsider type. what you actually gain for them themselves is somewhat tame.

aasimar/tielfings don't come with any racial HD in order to encourage players to use them as characters, don't know why, they just do

you do not exchange your RHD unless you have less than 2 of them (to my understanding) and pretty much the only ones who fulfill that are humanoids, who are almost all ok for PCs or small animals/vermin, who are usually not intelligent enough to qualify (awakening aside)

the problem is that this comes from savage species which had a few... proofreading errors, to say the least.

So they're just repeating themselves in the humanoid type description? Great.

That paragraph makes even LESS sense.

Their example is a GOBLIN who takes a level in sorcerer, and loses the benefits of the humanoid type. Goblins are humanoids, and by the rules for the humanoid type for 1HD creatures does not get any of the benefits of the type.

To say this is a mess is an understatement.

wait a second...

so if you wanted to play as... a jermlaine, for example, for alter self abuse, then you wouldn't gain any of the fey type attributes?

do you mean they don't get any of the "features" (racial HD,skillpoints,feats) because that is true

even if they take class levels, they get to keep "traits" which is all the good stuff (like not needing to eat or sleep for outsiders and MWP)

it is confusing though, and planetouched are pretty borked

[Taelas]

No, no.

For any creature other than humanoid you lose the HD (so base attack bonus, saves, skills, feats, etc), and what it gives you, but not what the type gives (such as proficiency in simple weapons). For humanoids, you lose everything, as it specifically calls out that it's different when you have a class.

[Venger]

No, no.

For any creature other than humanoid you lose the HD (so base attack bonus, saves, skills, feats, etc), and what it gives you, but not what the type gives (such as proficiency in simple weapons). For humanoids, you lose everything, as it specifically calls out that it's different when you have a class.

oh, okay. thanks for the clarification.

I'm dealing with that in a game right now, it's a bit of a pain

[Qwertystop]

Also, Humanoids have the 1 HD replaced automatically. If it would only have 1 HD, it instead has a class level. Anything that is not Humanoid that has only 1 HD can have that HD until it takes a class level.

[Doug Lampert]

Also, Humanoids have the 1 HD replaced automatically. If it would only have 1 HD, it instead has a class level. Anything that is not Humanoid that has only 1 HD can have that HD until it takes a class level.

Right. The general rule for advancing with class levels if you have one or less HD is in Monster Advancement under the heading "Humanoids and Class Levels", nothing in the rule specifies humanoids! The general rule for what creatures advance by class level has to do with a humanoid shape, but not the type. I suspect the header was written by someone thinking about the shape not the type, which is bad when the word "humanoid" is a term of art in D&D writing.

The whole rule for interactions with 1 HD or less monsters is actually superceeded for the humanoid type by the rule in the humanoid type description where the rule does specify that it superceeds the normal rules for how types apply with class levels!

The heading in the Monster Advancement section could not be more confusing if it were deliberately designed to be confusing since the rule that ACTUALLY covers that situation is in the type description and is different.

DougL

[Demidos]

Dont know if anyone mentioned this yet, but swordsage's 6*(6+int) skill points at first level means they have to put some skill points in skills they cant max. Not an error per-se, just amusing.

[Jon_Dahl]

I have one...

You're a titan. You just threw your huge javelin 150 ft and you couldn't reach a target 200 ft away. How do you feel now?

[Gotterdammerung]

Most exotic weapons.

I can kick butt with a spear but you add a sharp hook at the base of the spear blade and I become completely lost. "Huh, what is this strange new weapon that is almost exactly like a spear....whoops, this alien weapon is very hard to aim."

I can beat your butt with this stick I found on the ground, but if i lash some antlers to the tip of it, It is suddenly strange and foreign.

I can club you just fine, but tie a tiger skull to the top and suddenly I whiff.

I can click this trigger and fire a crossbow bolt with no problem, but if the crossbow is augmented to shoot icicles (god knows why) suddenly pulling the trigger got a little bit harder.

Spikes on my gauntlet... no problem. Blades on my gauntlet... CRAZY TALK! You need a feat for that!@

Sickle... no problem. Kopesh... wait.. I am supposed to hook the opponents legs and trip him? Well how will I ever do that with this strange odd shaped weapon?!


For God's sake, DO NOT add any hooks, spikes or blades to any of my "normal" pole weapons. That crap confuses the hell out of me.

[big teej]

Most exotic weapons.

I can kick butt with a spear but you add a sharp hook at the base of the spear blade and I become completely lost. "Huh, what is this strange new weapon that is almost exactly like a spear....whoops, this alien weapon is very hard to aim."

I can beat your butt with this stick I found on the ground, but if i lash some antlers to the tip of it, It is suddenly strange and foreign.

I can club you just fine, but tie a tiger skull to the top and suddenly I whiff.

I can click this trigger and fire a crossbow bolt with no problem, but if the crossbow is augmented to shoot icicles (god knows why) suddenly pulling the trigger got a little bit harder.

Spikes on my gauntlet... no problem. Blades on my gauntlet... CRAZY TALK! You need a feat for that!@

Sickle... no problem. Kopesh... wait.. I am supposed to hook the opponents legs and trip him? Well how will I ever do that with this strange odd shaped weapon?!


For God's sake, DO NOT add any hooks, spikes or blades to any of my "normal" pole weapons. That crap confuses the hell out of me.

welcome to why I treat all exotics as martials

[deuxhero]

Are there any new martial weapons outside of core?

[big teej]

Are there any new martial weapons outside of core?

I'm away from my books... and my houserule could be clouding my memory.

BUT

I believe there are several in the arms and equipment guide and a few in Races of Stone and Races of the Wild.


I also know that the idea of "exotic armor" is bubkis...

pure. bubkis.

not only do I make all exotic armors "not" every DM I've ever played with has agreed.

example.
Battle plate = + 9 AC max dex + 1

compared to....

Full Plate = +8 AC, max dex + 1

basic battle plate costs 2,500 gp
basic full plate costs 1500 gp

you can't really tell me that paying 1,000 gp AND a feat is worth an extra point of AC from armor.

well okay you can, but I won't buy it.

similar idea would be the Extreme Shields from RoS

it's a bridge between the heavy and tower shields (+3 ac)

it's 10 gp more than the heavy.... is it really necessary to gouge me a feat for a nice board for my sword and board fighter? (especially if I don't want a towershield?)


but I digress.

/ramble.

[Wookie-ranger]

Undead:
don't breath eat and sleep, but it does not mention aging anywhere?
vampire dying of old age?

[Qwertystop]

Undead:
don't breath eat and sleep, but it does not mention aging anywhere?
vampire dying of old age?

The types of undead which are not templates are separate creatures. Therefore, they have no maximum age, and will continue aging indefinitely.

[Flickerdart]

Are there any new martial weapons outside of core?

There's some. Dragon 331 has a couple of new Martial polearms, FRCS has a cutlass, CWar has a sabre, Planar Handbook has four of them and Sandstorm has the atlatl spear.

[Chronos]

On the surprise round one, it works both ways. Picture it:

The eight guards are all sitting around a table, playing poker. The rogue, who has great initiative and Whirlwind Attack, is climbing through the rafters, unseen. He drops onto the table, but the guards are good at their job, and were paying attention, and none of them are surprised. Everyone rolls initiative, the rogue wins, and kills them all with Sneak Attack damage before they can respond.

Now let's look at the same situation, but one of the guards was keeping his eye on the deck instead of on his surroundings: He's surprised. This is even better for the rogue, right? Nope. The rogue drops down, the one guard is surprised, and everyone else gets a partial action in the surprise round. The rogue wins initiative and kills one of the other guards, but then gets hit six times by the others.

On funny check DCs: I have a strength penalty, and I've never made any effort at getting better at jumping. According to the D&D rules, I should occasionally try to jump, and completely fail to do it at all. On the other hand, though, I should also occasionally manage to jump 18 feet from a standstill.

More generally: Let's say that we have three 1st-level characters: An average human, the scrawniest, weakest halfling that was ever born, and a hulking half-orc, the strongest of his tribe. Given a generic feat of strength that the human can accomplish about half the time, the 1 Str halfling will still accomplish a quarter of the time, and the half-orc will only manage 3/4 of the time.

And for a just plain absurd DC: If you have Tracking and want to figure out just what it is you're following, you'd better have a lot invested in Survival, because the DC to determine what kind of creature made the tracks is 60. I guess I must be an epic ranger, then.

My favorite example of a dysfunctional mechanic, though, that nobody else has mentioned, is the Polymorph Any Object spell. The duration depends on the "kingdom" (animal, vegetable, or mineral) and class of the target, and what you're turning it into, but those terms are never defined in the game, and in fact can't really be sensibly defined. Is an owlbear the same class as an owl, or the same class as a bear? Both? Or maybe it's not the same as either, but the same as a griffin (class "birdmammal"). Even the kingdoms are screwy: A nymph is presumably kingdom "animal", but what about a dryad, is she "animal" or "vegetable"? An earth elemental, I suppose, is mineral, but is a xorn animal or mineral? And what about the other elementals? Or outsiders: Does a lantern archon still count as "animal", or do outsiders need another kingdom? What about incorporeal undead?

[Ksheep]

On funny check DCs: I have a strength penalty, and I've never made any effort at getting better at jumping. According to the D&D rules, I should occasionally try to jump, and completely fail to do it at all. On the other hand, though, I should also occasionally manage to jump 18 feet from a standstill.

No, not quite. From a standstill, the DC is doubled. Even with average strength, maximum standing longjump with no ranks would be 10 feet.

My favorite example of a dysfunctional mechanic, though, that nobody else has mentioned, is the Polymorph Any Object spell. The duration depends on the "kingdom" (animal, vegetable, or mineral) and class of the target, and what you're turning it into, but those terms are never defined in the game, and in fact can't really be sensibly defined. Is an owlbear the same class as an owl, or the same class as a bear? Both? Or maybe it's not the same as either, but the same as a griffin (class "birdmammal"). Even the kingdoms are screwy: A nymph is presumably kingdom "animal", but what about a dryad, is she "animal" or "vegetable"? An earth elemental, I suppose, is mineral, but is a xorn animal or mineral? And what about the other elementals? Or outsiders: Does a lantern archon still count as "animal", or do outsiders need another kingdom? What about incorporeal undead?

I believe for things like Bugbear and other non-normal things, you would say "Magical Beast" or "Aberration", etc, as defined in their entries in the Monster manual.

[Gotterdammerung]

Is an owlbear the same class as an owl, or the same class as a bear? Both? Or maybe it's not the same as either, but the same as a griffin (class "birdmammal"). Even the kingdoms are screwy: A nymph is presumably kingdom "animal", but what about a dryad, is she "animal" or "vegetable"? An earth elemental, I suppose, is mineral, but is a xorn animal or mineral? And what about the other elementals? Or outsiders: Does a lantern archon still count as "animal", or do outsiders need another kingdom? What about incorporeal undead?

OK, ... I laughed.

[Venger]

My favorite example of a dysfunctional mechanic, though, that nobody else has mentioned, is the Polymorph Any Object spell. The duration depends on the "kingdom" (animal, vegetable, or mineral) and class of the target, and what you're turning it into, but those terms are never defined in the game, and in fact can't really be sensibly defined. Is an owlbear the same class as an owl, or the same class as a bear? Both? Or maybe it's not the same as either, but the same as a griffin (class "birdmammal"). Even the kingdoms are screwy: A nymph is presumably kingdom "animal", but what about a dryad, is she "animal" or "vegetable"? An earth elemental, I suppose, is mineral, but is a xorn animal or mineral? And what about the other elementals? Or outsiders: Does a lantern archon still count as "animal", or do outsiders need another kingdom? What about incorporeal undead?

ask this guy. from what I understand, he's information vegetable, animal, and mineral:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSGWoXDFM64

[Chronos]

No, not quite. From a standstill, the DC is doubled. Even with average strength, maximum standing longjump with no ranks would be 10 feet.

OK, then, I should occasionally make 18 feet on a running jump. Which is still absurd. When I try to jump as far as I possibly can, I generally end up somewhere in the range of 5 to 8 feet.

I believe for things like Bugbear and other non-normal things, you would say "Magical Beast" or "Aberration", etc, as defined in their entries in the Monster manual.

Which means that a wizard polymorphing his cat familiar into a cougar wouldn't get the "same class" bonus (despite them being the same order and family in our world), because a familiar is a magical beast, not an animal.

[Greenish]

New amusing find for the thread: falling from the orbit hurts more if you land on water than if you land on solid adamantine.

Stormwrack pg. 90 tells us that falling from a height above 240 ft. deals 2d3 nonlethal damage + 20d6 normal falling damage. That's only if you try to dive in, and fail. If you're just free fallin' for fun and profit, you'll take less damage.

[Gotterdammerung]

This one isn't exactly on topic but it is still kind of like wtf, lol.

Fiendish Codex II refers to Asmodeus as the Master of Baator. I can't help but think someone in the dev team was snickering to themselves for coming up with that one. Master Baator *snicker*

[Morithias]

This one isn't exactly on topic but it is still kind of like wtf, lol.

Fiendish Codex II refers to Asmodeus as the Master of Baator. I can't help but think someone in the dev team was snickering to themselves for coming up with that one. Master Baator *snicker*

I don't get the joke...

[Wyntonian]

I don't get the joke...

Say it out loud a couple times. Not that I find it incredibly amusing, but eh.






If you still don't get it, ask a master debater.

[Morithias]

Say it out loud a couple times. Not that I find it incredibly amusing, but eh.






If you still don't get it, ask a master debater.

...ok I admit it i kinda chuckled when I got it, but it's not that funny.

[Daftendirekt]

Master Baator = masterbater. Which, you know, isn't actually a word. Also, I picture Baator being pronounced Bay-tor, not bay-ter. Because, you know, it's spelled that way.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[The Winter King]

I always thought it was pronounced bay-ah-tor

[Gotterdammerung]

Master Baator = masterbater. Which, you know, isn't actually a word. Also, I picture Baator being pronounced Bay-tor, not bay-ter. Because, you know, it's spelled that way.

EDIT: ninja'd.

It is spelled "masterbator" and is pronounced exactly the same way as Master Baator. As far as it's legitimacy as a word, well that is debatable. As for the joke, well yeh it is a childish potty joke. But the part I find funny, is that it isn't my joke. Some dev guy out there snuck it in.