OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[fan4battle]

This comic made me grin, nice to see the Order be on the higher end for once.

[Chess435]

Wacky prediction time: Tarquin is deafened, but Iron Heart Surges it away.

[Jay R]

It amazes me how much time we can spend arguing over whether a character was more likely to say "me too" or "Nor I," after we've already been shown the answer by the person who in fact invented the character.

If your opinion of a character in OotS differs from the Giant's, then you are in fact mistaken - since the only knowledge you have about that character came from decisions he made and then chose to show you..

[Morgan Wick]

After finding out about the probable effects of the Holy Word, something tells me Xykon is due to show up soon. Also that Kilkil and Zzdtri are about to die, probably at Belkar's hands (at least in the former case).

[B. Dandelion]

It amazes me how much time we can spend arguing over whether a character was more likely to say "me too" or "Nor I," after we've already been shown the answer by the person who in fact invented the character.

If your opinion of a character in OotS differs from the Giant's, then you are in fact mistaken - since the only knowledge you have about that character came from decisions he made and then chose to show you..

I don't even think it was out of character but I can't get behind this at all. You think a creator can never derail his own creations? "In-character" is a subjective assessment just like "written well" or "written poorly". Do you think an author by definition writes his own characters well? I would think not. People find a character's behavior believable or they don't. If they find it not believable because it's not consistent with what's been established, you can't just invoke authorial fiat to make the subjective objective. You challenge the actual objective element -- there isn't any inconsistency. Zz'dtri's never talked enough to be established as a grammar pedant. The fact that V specifically was (in the Dragon Magazine strips) might suggest he'd be the exact opposite.

[Dudu]

Wacky prediction time: Tarquin is deafened, but Iron Heart Surges it away.

Really?

Tarquin is a Warblade? That's one of my favorite classes.

Of course, not as baddass as the cleric.
First tier Cleric FTW, Durkon!

[ti'esar]

Are we even arguing about whether it was "out of character"? As far as I know, the argument is about...

...uh....

Okay, I'm honestly stumped - what is the question here? Whether Z should have said "Nor I" instead of "Me too"? I genuinely have no idea.

[B. Dandelion]

Are we even arguing about whether it was "out of character"? As far as I know, the argument is about...

...uh....

Okay, I'm honestly stumped - what is the question here? Whether Z should have said "Nor I" instead of "Me too"? I genuinely have no idea.

Beats me. I'm sorry for participating in such a fundamentally silly discussion, I just dislike the argument that "characters are in-character by definition" wherever it comes up.

It's a great strip, too. Maybe we just get bored saying over and over again how awesome it is and need to invent things to argue over.

[Chess435]

Really?

Tarquin is a Warblade? That's one of my favorite classes.

Of course, not as baddass as the cleric.
First tier Cleric FTW, Durkon!

It's never been shown what class he is........

[GSFB]

Just for giggles, let's throw everyone arguing grammar into a combat situation, surprise you with a devastating attack, and then see if what you yell in the thick of it is grammatically correct. Shall we?

[Killer Angel]

What a masterstroke!

[skaddix]

Nice Plan. The OOTS Strikes Back

[Doorhandle]

What spell did Durkon use to do that?

Also, how don't you hear the dwarf in full plate?

You can't hear him over their yellings of panic.
Also, pass-wall doesn't seem to make any sound.

@ stealth argument - how do we know he wasn't standing there the whole time? Meld Into Stone doesn't offer any kind of spot check or other way of determining what the caster truly is. It also isn't illusory so T's True Seeing wouldn't work. D is literally inside the wall, and he can explicitly hear the LG clomping around outside his hidey-hole like a herd of elephants.

Even better! Kudos to the order.

[Murray]

Whoa! The OotS really is getting the drop on them! Rough day on the job for Linear Guild, wonder how much longer Nale can keep the team going.

[Icedaemon]

Wait, what ? The OOTS is fighting intelligently, for a change?

Not bad. Not bad at all.

So that's Holy Word . Must be "just the spell for tha, Lad" we saw discussed earlier.

Still, I would be very surprised if the LG is low-level compared to Durkon, so the most likely result is no-save deafening. Apart from Tarquin, of course, who doubtless has magic items up the wazoo which protect him from anything and everything. Sort of like Batman in the old Adam West show. What tactical value does that have ...?

ETA: Okay, deafening has the following tactical effects:

So it's essentially a debuff. Not decisive in itself, but -4 initiative and 20% spell failure is going to be very helpful indeed. And I see Malack has been cut off for the rest of the party, evening the odds a bit since V is also hors de combat. So a good start.

Brian P.

Keep in mind that while standard adventuring parties tend to have at least some players who metagame and still communicate with one another, the Linear Guild is currently comprised of two groups with no long history of cooperation who now can't communicate with one another. Deafening is much more useful if the enemy force is constantly in character.

Also, since drow have a level adjustment, Zz'dtri might have an ECL on par with V and still have a lower level than Durkon - deaf and blind could be a possibility.

We haven't seen how much anyone is affected as of yet, so I for one still doubt Tarquin was deafened, though he might still brace against the spell.

[Shatteredtower]

Well, that sure does make for a pretty picture of Durkon. This is just one of those strips that will work better when you're reading along from the start of the fight to the end.

[willpell]

I find it ironic that a dungeon with "lame traps" suddenly becomes deadly to the LG because of a smokestick.

The smokestick is having much the effect that the Draketooths' illusions would originally have had. It's very easy to determine what you need to be doing when you can see exactly what's going on clearly enough to identify everything accurately. But life isn't usually like that, and life in a universe of deadly peril and dramatic convention doubly so.

Absolutely loved the strip, but now I want to see the same spell casting with the D-man saying 'Beer' in holy script. :)

+1. I don't even drink myself, but this is clearly comedy gold.

Also, since drow have a level adjustment, Zz'dtri might have an ECL on par with V and still have a lower level than Durkon - deaf and blind could be a possibility.

The rules for buying off level adjustment are in the SRD, so it's entirely possible that the Giant regards them as "core" enough to apply to his characters (assuming they are in fact statted out in his lair). I don't expect we'll ever see much content from obscure supplements in the OOTSiverse because it would make it harder to get the joke - psions have just enough "knowage" to show up here and there, but I doubt the OOTS will have a climactic battle against a Totemist or Binder or Warblade, becasue too many readers would be confused. But Unearthed Arcana is practically the fourth corebook, and a +2 level adjustment can be completely bought off by the time you reach ECL 12, resulting in you earning XP faster than the rest of the characters, so it's not at all unlikely that Zzditri has "caught up" with the rest of the Linear Guild (and thus has the same number of wizard levels as V, which is only fitting).

[Theo333]

"What, you were expecting some cute dwarven cleric? Too bad it's ME! DURKON!"

Nice tactics, now drive the enemy general off the field and cause a mass rout; except for Tarquin of course.

[Gauscrypts]

I find it a bit boring if Durkon throws out a Holy World against an equal-level party (meaning Nale and that Dark elf as Anti-Order are probably only deafened, Kilkil pssibly deaf and blind (he's no adventurer and we see he's not dead), Tarquin stays unaffected) and the outsider makes her saving throw.

My estimate is the above + Sabine being banished.

Lucky Qarr. On the other hand: Holy Word explicitly takes Outsiders to their home plane regardless of if they can hear the spell or not. So does Rich rule that this spread manages to get through the iron door and catches Qarr as well?

I gotta ask, what if that door isn't iron? Are there metals that such a spell could or could not permeate?

[goldendragon]

LOL! ponage from durkon!

[Zombimode]

I gotta ask, what if that door isn't iron? Are there metals that such a spell could or could not permeate?

The material isn't really the point. It's a solid obstacle and thus it blocks Line of Effect.

[Orzel]

Ah Holy Word... good times.. good times.

I'm guessing all but Kilkil and Z are deaf. Kilkil is probably deaf and blind. If Z did not buy off his Level Adj then he is too.

[dtilque]

I usually don't discuss the art, but I want to say that that last panel was +10 awesome! Really blew me away.


I don't know what the "Line of Effect" rule is that people are citing, but the description of the spell clearly states that someone has to hear the Holy Word to be subject to it. So it's possible for someone not in a direct line of sight to be affected, since sound will travel around corners.

However, I doubt it will get through that door, since thick steel doesn't couple very well with air. That is, while steel will transmit sound very well, it doesn't pick up sound from air very well. Durkon would have to speak really loudly for it to get through. So Malack and Qarr will probably not be deafened or blinded.

There is an exception to this, which someone mentioned way up-thread. Outsiders will be banished even if they can't hear the Word. They just have to be within the 40ft distance. Malack and Qarr are clearly within that distance. I doubt Qarr will be banished, though. I suspect he has more things to do in the coming battle.

[willpell]

Ouch. Looks like it's time for Durkon's 'posthumous return' to the Dwarven lands.

Unlikely. Durkon has enough diamond dust for one Resurrection, but he can't resurrect himself. So the dramatically appropriate sequence of events is as follows:

1. Belkar and one other OOTSer are killed (probably Haley, since Roy has been dead already and Elan's death would complicate matters with Tarquin, not to mention make Nale even more insufferable for hours). Presented with a Sophie's Choice, Durkon resurrects the other casualty and fulfills Belkar's prophecy.

2. Later, Malack (also being a Tier 1 caster) fulfills his stated intention to kill Durkon so nobody else can. The Linear Guild is destroyed or nearly so, but Tarquin and Malack are enough to mop up the Oots and signal for backup.

3. Xykon shows up and there's a massive confrontation between him and Tarquin's incoming soldiery, ending in the destruction of Girard's Gate. The last Gate left in the world is in the North, either in or close to Dwarven Lands (and on the other side of several human kingdoms which might be fun to see); the OOTS goes there to secure Kraagor's gate, Xykon follows them, and Durkon has indeed brought doom to the dwarves when he posthumously returns.

Dictum
Speech Balloon: 01000100 01101001 01100011 01110100 01110101 01101101
Effect: I can't think of anything here

The effect would be to make the immediate area photorealistic, and characters would be blinded because they have only dots for eyes and deafened for having ears that aren't drawn large enough to be scientifically capable of gathering sound. Anyone who died, it would be because their existence was a violation of the Square-Cube law and there was insufficient technobabble to explain why their heart hadn't exploded.

[OoTLink]

Sabine is utterly crippled by this spell. Blind and Deaf for sure. Her mouth looks completely deformed, far too large, even for an echo. She might make her Will Save, but I'm really hoping she gets Banished.

I dunno if you guys noticed this, but in the 3rd echo sabine is basically laying down and her mouth is open. <- like that. Except a little wider. Her hair is along the right edge of the frame.

Took me forever to figure that out but the giant smiley deformed to heck didn't make sense to me either XD

[willpell]

I find it a little two coincidental that both neutral-ish casters are separated from their parties with their familiars. Perhaps a meet up between them soon. I would think Malack could give V some solace over his/her actions. He just seems like that kind of lizard and has the same not so subtle contempt for his own party, so maybe something in common over which to bond?

The set of traps the LG are triggering here, which Haley effortlessly spotted a few strips back then the OOTS planned this ambush, includes the same pit trap that V fell into. He Passwalled out of it, and it looks like he did so in a direction that follows the hallway above, so with Malack trapped behind a steel door back in the direction of the pit trap, a meeting between them is unlikely. Which is too bad because I agree that it seems like they'd have stuff to talk about. V doesn't know that Malack is actively an enemy at the moment, and Malack is only participating under protest, so they'd have little reason to attack immediately, and Malack's status as a death cleric means that he could give an interesting perspective if he were to counsel V after V breaks down and reveals his deed.

[EmperorSarda]

The set of traps the LG are triggering here, which Haley effortlessly spotted a few strips back then the OOTS planned this ambush, includes the same pit trap that V fell into.

This pit trap is not the pit trap that V fell into.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I wonder if Sabine was banished by the spell. She has to make a will save with a -4 penalty.

[Zombimode]

I don't know what the "Line of Effect" rule is that people are citing, but the description of the spell clearly states that someone has to hear the Holy Word to be subject to it. So it's possible for someone not in a direct line of sight to be affected, since sound will travel around corners.

Thats why it is a "spread" area.
Anything that blocks LoE still blocks it though. You can also hear stuff behind a forcefield. It would still block the Holy Word.
Holy Word has a 40 foot radius. Surely you could hear it from farther then this. This tells us that there is more to the spell then just sound.

Note that I do not say how things "should" be done in the comic, just how things would be handled if the rules are taken to be granted.
A solid metal door completely blocking the corridor? Yeah, there is no way to spread arround this one and thus LoE would be blocked.

[Snails]

(I skimmed forward...)

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is conceivable that Durkon has the Good cleric domain, which allows him to cast Good type spells (e.g. Holy Word) as a caster of one level higher.

Therefore, it is possible for Durkon to be, say, 14th level and affect a 15th level Tarquin.